Getting Close to buying - Need Help - Are H&A really worth it?

[dcsearcher]

Hi folks - LOVE this forum. Thank God it exists. I hope everyone had a great holiday!

So, here''s my question (maybe it''s a few) and I ask with some apologies, as I can only imagine folks on this site have answered this one 1000 times:

Is a TRUE, H&A cut really worth it compared to an AGS Triple 0 or a GIA Triple Excellent with High HCA scores?

Here''s why I am asking. I currently have this stone on hold at GOG (would love to hear general thoughts about it as well). I love their site, trust them already, and clearly they have great stuff:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4337

That said, I went to a local dealer this week (Mervis Diamonds in Washington DC) and saw some great looking stuff (very similar stone - H, SI1, 1.74ct, Ideal Cut) for much less ($13,500 for the one I just described). The GOG stone, while certainly a better clarity, is $18,000. I understand its a true H&A (though even this forum seems to have some debate about what that is... way over my head!), but will that really make a difference. I could get a 2.0 ct stone from Mervis with similar attributes for about $19,000.

In addition, looking at Blue Nile, I have found 2.0ct stones there with good stats that are under or around $20k.

I think the price at GOG is great and I love all the detail and service they provide.

But really, in the world of it sitting on my future wife''s finger (very exciting!), are we ever going to be able to tell the difference between these perfect (and more pricey) H&A stones and a excellent/ideal cut from anyone else?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/29/2008 10:28:35 AM
Author:dcsearcher
Hi folks - LOVE this forum. Thank God it exists. I hope everyone had a great holiday!

So, here's my question (maybe it's a few) and I ask with some apologies, as I can only imagine folks on this site have answered this one 1000 times:

Is a TRUE, H&A cut really worth it compared to an AGS Triple 0 or a GIA Triple Excellent with High HCA scores?

Here's why I am asking. I currently have this stone on hold at GOG (would love to hear general thoughts about it as well). I love their site, trust them already, and clearly they have great stuff:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4337

That said, I went to a local dealer this week (Mervis Diamonds in Washington DC) and saw some great looking stuff (very similar stone - H, SI1, 1.74ct, Ideal Cut) for much less ($13,500 for the one I just described). The GOG stone, while certainly a better clarity, is $18,000. I understand its a true H&A (though even this forum seems to have some debate about what that is... way over my head!), but will that really make a difference. I could get a 2.0 ct stone from Mervis with similar attributes for about $19,000.

In addition, looking at Blue Nile, I have found 2.0ct stones there with good stats that are under or around $20k.

I think the price at GOG is great and I love all the detail and service they provide.

But really, in the world of it sitting on my future wife's finger (very exciting!), are we ever going to be able to tell the difference between these perfect (and more pricey) H&A stones and a excellent/ideal cut from anyone else?

It depends on your priorities as to whether a h&a cut is best for you or not. You can find some AGS0 which are h&a or non h&a even which are excellent performers, as are some GIA Ex, but in each case you need to evaluate each diamond on its own physical proportions and desirable visual properties.

As to the Mervis diamonds we really need more info to determine how they rate compared with the GOG diamond, if you could post the following info please on the ones you are interested in -

type of lab report
depth %
table %
crown and pavilion angles
polish and symmetry grades
girdle thickness
diameter measurements
fluorescence if applicable.

A well cut and balanced diamond will sparkle and give you a nice performance of fire and brilliance etc, however as to being able to tell the difference between h&a and non, as long as the diamond you pick is well cut then you will have a beautiful rock - you may not notice unless under close examination any difference between h&a and non as the proportions and how the diamond returns light is the most important factor, not an arrow pattern which you will only see in some lighting.

So really it is up to you what you pick, but you can certainly find a beautiful well cut diamond without it being a branded h&a. Indeed you might even be able to see some arrow patterning in some diamonds anyway!

Also just another point to ponder, GOG offer an upgrade policy in case you might want to increase the size of the diamond later, do Mervis offer one? If so, check the terms carefully.

 

[dcsearcher]

Thanks - I have emailed Mervis to get the details and will send them along shortly. What do you think of the GOG diamond?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/29/2008 10:42:18 AM
Author: dcsearcher
Thanks - I have emailed Mervis to get the details and will send them along shortly. What do you think of the GOG diamond?

Most welcome!

The GOG diamond is a beauty!!

Also if you are looking at diamonds in person, you could order an Idealscope as this could help you.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=2&ShowAdd=Y

 

[elle_chris]

That GOG stone is perfection, period.

As far as hearts and arrows go, it's your own personal choice. I have H&A's from GOG and Whiteflash. I also have, and this is for my e-ring a GIA X that is NOT H&A.

The point is getting the best light return and there's really no way anyone can tell you about the Mervis stone without knowing the angles, who graded it, or an idealscope image.

The reason people here purchase H&A's from thedr vendors is because they know they're getting the best cut possible which translates to excellent light return and they like seeing the arrows when lighting permits.
IF you can find a stone that doesn't show the H&A pattern and still has amazing light return, "I" would say go for it. To do that though, you'd have to work with a vendor/jeweler who would be honest with you and can assess the stone using tools such as an idealscope.

As far as GIA excellent goes, not all are created equal. Again, you would need someone you trust to be honest with you. If you can find an AGS0 stone, you can safely think it should be a winner. BUT even then, I'd want someone to be my eyes and check it out for me.

edited to add: Pretty much what Lorelei said

 

[vespergirl]

I have a 2.01 ct H&A G SI1 from Mervis Diamond (the one in Tyson''s Corner) and I love it (see my avatar for pic). The other thing that''s great about Mervis is the 100% lifetime trade-up policy. My original stone was an asscher, but when I decided that I wanted a round instead, it was so easy to trade it in - you only pay the difference for the more expensive stone, and that''s it. It''s nice if you or your wife would be interested in trading up stones for any reason years down the line. It''s also nice to have a jeweler that''s local, for repairs and maintenance.

I do know that the online vendors recommended by PS are great as well, but my husband felt more comfortable going with a local dealer, so that''s why we picked Mervis, and we''ve been very happy with the diamond.

 

[dcsearcher]

Thanks Vespergirl.... was Mervis able to provide any idealscope, etc. images for you? just met them for the first time yesterday...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, you are getting this opinion from someone who is a bit biased, because I have an almost identical stone from Good Old Gold (see my avatar)! I have a 1.63 H VS1 H&A stone from them! A lot of that price difference is for the VS1. And yes, to ME, the VS1 is worth it over an SI1. I may be in the minority here (because many here go lower in clarity to get a larger stone), but I wanted a high quality stone in every respect...cut, color, clarity. If you were comparing an H VS2 with the H VS1, then I might consider it. But the comparison really isn''t fair between the GOG stone and the Mervis stone because there is a big price difference because of the clarity. Clean stones are more rare and the price reflects that. The great thing about my stone is that I have no regrets because I didn''t sacrifice any of the qualities that were important to me. But each person has to balance out those qualities to fit their own budget.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would also consider this one if it would save a few hundred. It is a tiny bit bigger (maybe not even visible...you''d have to ask Jon to compare the two stones):

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5366/

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 12/29/2008 11:08:54 AM
Author: dcsearcher
Thanks Vespergirl.... was Mervis able to provide any idealscope, etc. images for you? just met them for the first time yesterday...

I actually brought my own Idealscope, which I purchased through Garry''s website. I do have to say that they have a variety of qualities at Mervis, most of the stones I saw were gorgeous, but they do carry some diamonds that weren''t as well cut. I think that if you go in there with an Idealscope, as I did, you will be able to separate the winners.

They also carry AGS, GIA or EGL certed diamonds. My diamond has an EGL cert, but I was able to compare it against ideal cut AGS and GIA stones, which made me confident that I got the cut, color and clarity that I wanted. My stone is an EGL H&A (under the comments section it is listed as 8 hearts & 8 arrows) and I was able to verify the H&A with my Idealscope.

One thing that I will say about Mervis is that some (not all) of the sales staff are as knowledgable as many of the folks on PS. I went in there knowing this, so I brought an Idealscope, along with a set of numbers that I was comfortable buying (you can look up ideal-cut spec parameters here on PS). That way, I knew that I was picking a good diamond according to PS standards, not just buying some salesperson''s word for it. I highly recommend doing that.

I believe that the numbers you want to look for are in this chart - you should print it and take it with you:
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/round.asp

Here is a link to some pics of my stone:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-2-ct-rb-upgrade-old-setting-p.73980/

 

[vespergirl]

I also wanted to post a thread of MissGotRocks''s stone and story - her ring is also an upgrade from Mervis:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/six-trades-seven-stones-later.31673/

 

[Lorelei]

Great posts and info Vesper!

 

[Deelight]

Date: 12/29/2008 11:09:11 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Well, you are getting this opinion from someone who is a bit biased, because I have an almost identical stone from Good Old Gold (see my avatar)! I have a 1.63 H VS1 H&A stone from them! A lot of that price difference is for the VS1. And yes, to ME, the VS1 is worth it over an SI1. I may be in the minority here (because many here go lower in clarity to get a larger stone), but I wanted a high quality stone in every respect...cut, color, clarity. If you were comparing an H VS2 with the H VS1, then I might consider it. But the comparison really isn't fair between the GOG stone and the Mervis stone because there is a big price difference because of the clarity. Clean stones are more rare and the price reflects that. The great thing about my stone is that I have no regrets because I didn't sacrifice any of the qualities that were important to me. But each person has to balance out those qualities to fit their own budget.

Ditto

Can I join your minority DS?

 

[dcsearcher]

Super helpful everyone... Once I get the details on the Mervis stones, I will send them along. Thanks again for the help (I am leaning toward that GOG stone )

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/29/2008 11:53:55 AM
Author: Deelight

Date: 12/29/2008 11:09:11 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Well, you are getting this opinion from someone who is a bit biased, because I have an almost identical stone from Good Old Gold (see my avatar)! I have a 1.63 H VS1 H&A stone from them! A lot of that price difference is for the VS1. And yes, to ME, the VS1 is worth it over an SI1. I may be in the minority here (because many here go lower in clarity to get a larger stone), but I wanted a high quality stone in every respect...cut, color, clarity. If you were comparing an H VS2 with the H VS1, then I might consider it. But the comparison really isn''t fair between the GOG stone and the Mervis stone because there is a big price difference because of the clarity. Clean stones are more rare and the price reflects that. The great thing about my stone is that I have no regrets because I didn''t sacrifice any of the qualities that were important to me. But each person has to balance out those qualities to fit their own budget.

Ditto

Can I join your minority DS?

Oh, yay! Thanks! I feel a little lonely sometimes!

Good luck to you dcsearcher! I am sure whatever you choose will be excellent!

 

[dcsearcher]

Ok Folks, here''s what I have found at Mervis for comparison... granted, I understand that they are not perfect comparables given their color and clarity, but the price/size differences are significant:

First, here is a 1.70 ct stone:
color: H
clarity: VS2
GIA - 3 excellent
Depth: 62.2
Table: 57
Crown angle: 36
Pav angle: 40.8
HCA score = 3.7
PRICE = $15,895 ($2,000 less than the GOG stone - same sizish, slight less quality)

Second, here is a 2.080 ct stone:
color: I
clarity: SI2 (all twining wisps)
AGS - 0 cut
Depth: 61.4
Table: 56.6
Crown angle: 34.3
Pav angle: 40.9
HCA score = 1.4
PRICE = $18,700 (much bigger than the GOG stone, same price, less color & clarity)

Couple other things that I can''t understand:

1. Mervis contact said "all of those scopes [idealscope, ASET, etc.] are just gimics - if you have an AGS0 stone you will never be able to tell the difference"
2. She said the 2.080 ct stone was an AGS triple 0, though the cert does not have the far right hand margin with all of the zeros displayed. She said that didn''t matter and that you know its a triple zero because the cert number starts with "000"
3. the GOG stone only scores a 2.9 on the HCA scale - due to the other analyses provided by GOG, should I just disregard that????

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/29/2008 1:33:56 PM
Author: dcsearcher
Ok Folks, here's what I have found at Mervis for comparison... granted, I understand that they are not perfect comparables given their color and clarity, but the price/size differences are significant:

First, here is a 1.70 ct stone:
color: H
clarity: VS2
GIA - 3 excellent
Depth: 62.2
Table: 57
Crown angle: 36
Pav angle: 40.8
HCA score = 3.7
PRICE = $15,895 ($2,000 less than the GOG stone - same sizish, slight less quality)

Second, here is a 2.080 ct stone:
color: I
clarity: SI2 (all twining wisps)
AGS - 0 cut
Depth: 61.4
Table: 56.6
Crown angle: 34.3
Pav angle: 40.9
HCA score = 1.4
PRICE = $18,700 (much bigger than the GOG stone, same price, less color & clarity)

Couple other things that I can't understand:

1. Mervis contact said 'all of those scopes [idealscope, ASET, etc.] are just gimics - if you have an AGS0 stone you will never be able to tell the difference' Some may hold that opinion and are entitled to it, but IS and ASET are extremely valuable IMO particularly if buying online - AGS0 are considered to be a safe bet but personally I believe it is best to still evaluate each diamond carefully regardless.


2. She said the 2.080 ct stone was an AGS triple 0, though the cert does not have the far right hand margin with all of the zeros displayed. She said that didn't matter and that you know its a triple zero because the cert number starts with '000' Does the diamond have an AGS Diamond Quality Document and is it a recent report?
3. the GOG stone only scores a 2.9 on the HCA scale - due to the other analyses provided by GOG, should I just disregard that???? The HCA isn't used to select diamonds but to eliminate them, in the case of a diamond such as the GOG one, images such as IS, ASET etc overide the HCA which cannot physically see the diamond.

Out of the two Mervis diamonds above, I prefer the second one. If you decide to go with that one, ask to check it out away from the store lights to check that it is eyeclean to your standards, inclusions can pop out in some lights more than others.

 

[dcsearcher]

Thanks for the thoughts.

To your question, the AGS0 does have a Quality Document dated August 17, 2007.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I have purchased my last three stones from Mervis. I have been very happy with what I purchased and was in a trade-in situation so had no other choice unless I wanted to take a bath on my trade.

However, Mervis doesn't 'specialize' in H&A stones. That is not the focus of their business. Their website shows run of the mill stones (IMO) but they can get you anything you want. My current stone is an AGS0 stone. While I agree with the SA that you pretty much can't go wrong with an AGS0, it doesn't mean that the small details aren't important. The scopes are useful and do have their place - they just don't do analysis with them. That answer is a bit of a turnoff in itself; I'd rather hear them say they aren't familiar with them rather than to say they have no real purpose.

While the Mervis stone has nice numbers, you probably aren't comparing apples to apples. I'm sure the GOG stone is a super ideal cut stone. You have to decide if size is your most important criteria. If it is, I'd go with Mervis. If a super ideal cut is your goal, then the GOG stone would be your pick. The difference in color and clarity between the GOG stone and the 2 carat Mervis stone is something to consider. An H to an I is not that huge but a VS to a SI2 is an appreciable difference - especially in dollars. I'm not sure you'd see great differences in cut with the naked eye. If you were really unsure, you could get the stone from GOG and take it to Mervis to compare with your own eyes. You'd only be out the shipping back and forth and it would put your mind at ease.

I know Zed and Ronnie Mervis. They are both gentlemen and really love diamonds. They are a no pressure business and if you are feeling that from the sales associate, ask to deal with either of them. They will be glad to personally help you in your decision.

Best of luck to you - the good news is that you have two beautiful stones to choose from. I'm sure either of them will be nice performers - you'll just have to decide which criteria is the most important to you!

 

[vespergirl]

Couple other things that I can''t understand:

1. Mervis contact said ''all of those scopes [idealscope, ASET, etc.] are just gimics - if you have an AGS0 stone you will never be able to tell the difference''
2. She said the 2.080 ct stone was an AGS triple 0, though the cert does not have the far right hand margin with all of the zeros displayed. She said that didn''t matter and that you know its a triple zero because the cert number starts with ''000''
3. the GOG stone only scores a 2.9 on the HCA scale - due to the other analyses provided by GOG, should I just disregard that????

Wow, that first comment by the Mervis rep was kind of scary. As I mentioned before, some of their salespeople are not too knowledgable. They do have many beautiful diamonds and great prices, but I once had one of their salespeople tell me that all of their diamonds are "ideal cut." When I pointed to the GIA cert that was in front of me that stated the stone I was looking at was "very good" cut, not ideal cut, I knew that I had to do my own cut analysis, which is why PS is so helpful

Still, it sounds like the stones they showed you are really nice. See if you can get an Idealscope & then go back and look at them. I would bet that your girlfriend would go bananas over the 2 ct. stone, if you like it. I would think that if the 2 ct comes out with an HCA under 2, I''m sure it will be a gorgeous stone. What I don''t know is if all AGS 000 stones are automatically H&A? I''m sure that there''s someone here who would probably know the answer to that question ...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/29/2008 1:55:01 PM
Author: vespergirl

Couple other things that I can''t understand:

1. Mervis contact said ''all of those scopes [idealscope, ASET, etc.] are just gimics - if you have an AGS0 stone you will never be able to tell the difference''
2. She said the 2.080 ct stone was an AGS triple 0, though the cert does not have the far right hand margin with all of the zeros displayed. She said that didn''t matter and that you know its a triple zero because the cert number starts with ''000''
3. the GOG stone only scores a 2.9 on the HCA scale - due to the other analyses provided by GOG, should I just disregard that????

Wow, that first comment by the Mervis rep was kind of scary. As I mentioned before, some of their salespeople are not too knowledgable. They do have many beautiful diamonds and great prices, but I once had one of their salespeople tell me that all of their diamonds are ''ideal cut.'' When I pointed to the GIA cert that was in front of me that stated the stone I was looking at was ''very good'' cut, not ideal cut, I knew that I had to do my own cut analysis, which is why PS is so helpful

Still, it sounds like the stones they showed you are really nice. See if you can get an Idealscope & then go back and look at them. I would bet that your girlfriend would go bananas over the 2 ct. stone, if you like it. I would think that if the 2 ct comes out with an HCA under 2, I''m sure it will be a gorgeous stone. What I don''t know is if all AGS 000 stones are automatically H&A? I''m sure that there''s someone here who would probably know the answer to that question ...

No they are not VG.

 

[MissGotRocks]

No, all AGS0 are not H&A stones. However, I''ve never seen an AGS0 stone that isn''t beautiful. Someone like Jonathan at GOG could probably pick out the small nuances that make them different but I probably couldn''t. PS made me so much more educated in my buying - at some point though it can almost be a curse! You get so caught up in the numbers that you almost forget to parlay that into what your eyes are really seeing.

You also need to keep in mind that those are not the only two stones Mervis can put their hands on. If neither of them is appealing to you, ask for them to find something different. If you don''t necessarily want a stone with a H&A designation, ask Jonathan what else he has with excellent cut but without the premium that the H&A designation may carry.

I guess what I''m trying to say is that there are variables to buying a stone. Price is certainly one of the variables. You generally get what you pay for but don''t need to pay for something that is not all that important to you. Hope that makes sense!

 

[dcsearcher]

Thanks - very helpful everyone!

I will be seeing the Mervis diamonds in person tomorrow. I''ll report back what I see!

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 12/29/2008 1:33:56 PM
Author: dcsearcher
1. Mervis contact said 'all of those scopes [idealscope, ASET, etc.] are just gimics - if you have an AGS0 stone you will never be able to tell the difference'

That one is BS as ASET is developed by AGS for their PGS AGS0 cut grading system. If Mervis is not going to trust ASET image then AGS0 grade is essentially useless to them too.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/29/2008 3:16:06 PM
Author: dcsearcher
Thanks - very helpful everyone!

I will be seeing the Mervis diamonds in person tomorrow. I'll report back what I see!

Let us know how you get on, and see if you can check the diamonds out in plain daylight if possible so you can get a better idea of how they will look when being worn. Jewellery store lighting doesn't give a true picture IMO, so ask if you can do this. Also double check for inclusions with the SI2.

 

[Darthkim]

Hi DC searcher,

Just wanted to point out that your diamond is an Isee2. On the GIA cert, that little symbol and numbers under the notes section. Check out the history of the diamond at http://www.isee2.com/consumer_home_V3.php?language=english
They don''t make it very well known, but GOG carries a good selection of them.

I''ve bought an Isee2 from GOG and they are amazing. She continues to get compliments from all sorts of people. Its amazing how well that stone sparkles.

Good luck in your search!

 

[:)]

Date: 12/29/2008 1:50:37 PM
Author: dcsearcher
Thanks for the thoughts.

To your question, the AGS0 does have a Quality Document dated August 17, 2007.

Please confirm diamond quality document, or diamond quality report?


Mervis is wrong about the 000 on the report # meaning that it is thus automatically a 0 for light performance.



If you want to see some H&A in person to see if you feel it is important, is there a Hearts on Fire dealer in your area you can just go and look at stones?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Let me ask you a question. Does your girlfriend have any friends or sisters who are engaged or married? If so, do you have any idea of the size of their diamonds? Because if they all have 2-3 carat stones, then she may be happier with a 2 ct. stone and sacrifice color and clarity. Or, she could have friends with mostly 1-1.5 ct. stones, and she''d be thrilled with a 1.5-1.75 in a better color and clarity.

Just remember one thing when you go look at those diamonds. Almost all diamonds look great in jewelry store lighting. You really need to see color in natural light to see whether the color is acceptable. And by all means always request to see SI clarity stones magnified so you can see the inclusions.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 12/29/2008 7:11:58 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Let me ask you a question. Does your girlfriend have any friends or sisters who are engaged or married? If so, do you have any idea of the size of their diamonds? Because if they all have 2-3 carat stones, then she may be happier with a 2 ct. stone and sacrifice color and clarity. Or, she could have friends with mostly 1-1.5 ct. stones, and she''d be thrilled with a 1.5-1.75 in a better color and clarity.

Just remember one thing when you go look at those diamonds. Almost all diamonds look great in jewelry store lighting. You really need to see color in natural light to see whether the color is acceptable. And by all means always request to see SI clarity stones magnified so you can see the inclusions.

Really good points. I picked a G SI1 2 ct over a smaller F VS2 that I also liked because I really wanted a 2 ct stone.

Also, when I shopped at Mervis, they let me bring the stone out into the foyer to see it in natural light (with the security guard) and they give you a loupe and tweezers as soon as they sit you down in the private rooms so that you can inspect the stones they bring you. They didn''t have Idealscopes, but they were fine with me using all the tools I brought.

 

[dcsearcher]

Wow - great stuff guys thanks.

To your question, she will really be the first of her close friends to get engaged, and while she has a sister-in-law, I don''t think her stone is that large.

Our joint friends that are couples basically have very "different" tastes. Just their own things - she and I both like something a bit more traditional and classic... but they do have nice sized stones (not sure how large but I would guess in the 1.5 - 2.0 range... one of them has a fancy yellow center and I have no idea how to even judge it because it is so different looking.)

As for the Mervis Stone, it has a diamond quality document. And while it shows that the cut if AGS0, it does not have the far left right hand border notes also noting zeros for light performance, polish, etc. I thought that was what made for an AGS Triple 0... the blue Nile stone does have that triple 0.