JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2004
- Messages
- 5,212
Date: 3/13/2006 4:51:22 PM
Author: amarz
While my diamond knowledge is still very much in the early stages of development, I find it very reassuring that there are vendors and experts such as Brian Gavin, Wink, Gary etc. who are passionate enough about what they do to stand up and speak out in order to protect consumers and the dignity of their trade. As a consumer, the fact that you all are willing to openly discuss these concerns, advocate for change, and still remain openminded and respectful, speaks volumes about your character. So, Lazarus, my suggestion would be to purchase a stone from a well respected vendor (such as those found on pricescope) who will use their eyes and expertise to help you select a stone that is beautiful and meets THEIR strict standards, instead of relying on the lab report that accompanies it. I think that you would be doing yourself a disservice to simply weed out all stones that come with a GIA report as some of them, as far as I understand, are still going to be killer stones.
To all the experts, keep up the good work, those lacking diamond knowledge (Me
) really appreciate it!
Angela
Date: 3/16/2006 10:36:25 AM
Author: Rod
Your article was fantastic and really helped me understand with real world pictures and language what GIA is doing. What I found particularly interesting, especially since I wear a shallower cut diamond is why ''older'' observers preferred the shallower cut stone, as opposed to the deeper or even ideal cut stone. Why would age make a difference in people''s perception of a diamonds beauty? I''m 51 years old, however, I''m getting younger every day. In my situation, I actually preferred the look of my shallower cut diamond, over many other''s I could have chosen.
Did my ''older'' eyes deceive me???
Thanks again for the article.........
Rod, your eyes are able to focus closer when you are young (or if you are nearsighted), but that ''near point of accomodation'' recedes with age, reaching 10 inches for most by age 40 and receding beyond for many - possibly causing farsighted condition.
(presbyopia)Date: 3/16/2006 4:23:52 PM
Author: Rod
Sure, John, it''s called Presmyopia and like most adults my age, I now wear glasses to correct the spring that broke around the time I turned 40. That said, since my vision with glasses is basically as good as it was when I was younger, I would think I would see the same thing as a younger person sees when looking at a diamond. So what does the fact that ''older'' people preferred the shallower cut diamond mean? Perhaps the ''older'' people were asked not to wear glasses, or contacts? I guess I just find it interesting that categorically, ''older'' people preferred the shallower stone?
VERY VERY FUNNY Kenny!!Date: 3/16/2006 4:35:35 PM
Author: kenny
You don''t have to be 40 to be a Presbyterian.
But I think Presbyterian''s vision is the same as that of other denominations.
Thanks for spell-checking meDate: 3/16/2006 4:36:28 PM
Author: belle
(presbyopia)Date: 3/16/2006 4:23:52 PM
Author: Rod
Sure, John, it''s called Presmyopia and like most adults my age, I now wear glasses to correct the spring that broke around the time I turned 40. That said, since my vision with glasses is basically as good as it was when I was younger, I would think I would see the same thing as a younger person sees when looking at a diamond. So what does the fact that ''older'' people preferred the shallower cut diamond mean? Perhaps the ''older'' people were asked not to wear glasses, or contacts? I guess I just find it interesting that categorically, ''older'' people preferred the shallower stone?
rod, did you do your diamond shopping with or without your glasses? the reason garry cites for older people preferring shallow stones, is that they are effected differently by head obscuration. as you bring the diamond closer in viewing range (as an older, presbyopic person would do) more light is obstructed by the head effecting the apperance of the diamond.
rod, i hope you were not offended by my spell check!Date: 3/16/2006 4:43:35 PM
Author: Rod
Thanks for spell-checking meDate: 3/16/2006 4:36:28 PM
Author: belle
(presbyopia)Date: 3/16/2006 4:23:52 PM
Author: Rod
Sure, John, it''s called Presmyopia and like most adults my age, I now wear glasses to correct the spring that broke around the time I turned 40. That said, since my vision with glasses is basically as good as it was when I was younger, I would think I would see the same thing as a younger person sees when looking at a diamond. So what does the fact that ''older'' people preferred the shallower cut diamond mean? Perhaps the ''older'' people were asked not to wear glasses, or contacts? I guess I just find it interesting that categorically, ''older'' people preferred the shallower stone?
rod, did you do your diamond shopping with or without your glasses? the reason garry cites for older people preferring shallow stones, is that they are effected differently by head obscuration. as you bring the diamond closer in viewing range (as an older, presbyopic person would do) more light is obstructed by the head effecting the apperance of the diamond.And yes, I shopped with my glasses. I do everything with my glasses. They''re no-line bifocal, so I believe I see as well with my glasses as ''them youngsters do.'' By gummit the old man said as he whistles through his dentures........LOL
Shhh. Careful Rod. Marty''s already miffed about the glare component returned to the metric. Do you want to incite a further glare/UV-filter rage? Not to mention optics correlating to your prescription... err, presbyterian... err, presbyopian...Date: 3/16/2006 4:43:35 PM
Author: Rod
Thanks for spell-checking meAnd yes, I shopped with my glasses. I do everything with my glasses. They''re no-line bifocal, so I believe I see as well with my glasses as ''them youngsters do.'' By gummit the old man said as he whistles through his dentures........LOL
Thanks Rod.Date: 3/16/2006 10:36:25 AM
Author: Rod
Your article was fantastic and really helped me understand with real world pictures and language what GIA is doing. What I found particularly interesting, especially since I wear a shallower cut diamond is why ''older'' observers preferred the shallower cut stone, as opposed to the deeper or even ideal cut stone. Why would age make a difference in people''s perception of a diamonds beauty? I''m 51 years old, however, I''m getting younger every day. In my situation, I actually preferred the look of my shallower cut diamond, over many other''s I could have chosen.
Did my ''older'' eyes deceive me???
Thanks again for the article.........
Garry.. I''ve been showing the effect of grease on the pavilion since the mid 90''s in 2D simulations, as well as in my SAS2000 3D simulations, and my clients have used the 2D simulation (example on my SAS2000 page) I believe, to sell an ultrasonic cleaner with every diamond..Date: 3/16/2006 7:17:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Add to this my anecdotal experiance that shallow stones loook better when they are dirty. (I have begged Sergey to make a modelling option in DiamCalc to put ''virtual'' grease on the diamond pavilion).
Marty you did not address my main contention:Date: 3/17/2006 12:22:58 AM
Author: adamasgem
Garry.. I''ve been showing the effect of grease on the pavilion since the mid 90''s in 2D simulations, as well as in my SAS2000 3D simulations, and my clients have used the 2D simulation (example on my SAS2000 page) I believe, to sell an ultrasonic cleaner with every diamond..Date: 3/16/2006 7:17:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Add to this my anecdotal experiance that shallow stones loook better when they are dirty. (I have begged Sergey to make a modelling option in DiamCalc to put ''virtual'' grease on the diamond pavilion).
What happens when there is grease (RI ~ 1.5) on the pavilion is:
1) The critical angle opens up, and you loose more light out of facet interactions on the pavilion, technically the stone is then ''duller''
2) The contrast pattern you then see might change as a result, either increasing or decreasing, depending on the cut of the stone, and the stone might appear ''better'', but it can''t be any ''brighter'' overall as it doesn''t change the basic internal reflectivity, just the light loss at the diamond/grease/air interface, that''s the optical physics as I see it. Trade off, pattern or uniformity in lower brilliance, or higher brilliance with possibly more contrast
3) Now given that most people don''t take care of, or bother to clean their stones (amazing the amount of cookie dough you see), cutting stones like this to enhance the ''slob'' effect might be an idea, someone might even trademark it something like the Lazy8
Garry.. OK, to address shallow vs steep, the same comments above apply in general, you might get more or less relative leakage in specifc areas and different patterning, which will make the look of the stone entirely different. Depending on how Sergey has his software written, is should be an easy "mod" to the code. I DON''T KNOW whether your observations regarding steep/shallow differences would hold up because I don''t know what you mean specifically about the subjective "better". Not trying to pull your chain but, but their might be differences in amount of leakage. Let me try a simple 2D simulation I have built into my software and I''ll post it this weekend. There might be some conclusions from the leakage patteren, although I don''t do the reverse ray tracing so I can''t do the "visualization rendering" that Sergey does.Date: 3/17/2006 6:49:16 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Marty you did not address my main contention:Date: 3/17/2006 12:22:58 AM
Author: adamasgem
Garry.. I''ve been showing the effect of grease on the pavilion since the mid 90''s in 2D simulations, as well as in my SAS2000 3D simulations, and my clients have used the 2D simulation (example on my SAS2000 page) I believe, to sell an ultrasonic cleaner with every diamond..Date: 3/16/2006 7:17:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Add to this my anecdotal experiance that shallow stones loook better when they are dirty. (I have begged Sergey to make a modelling option in DiamCalc to put ''virtual'' grease on the diamond pavilion).
What happens when there is grease (RI ~ 1.5) on the pavilion is:
1) The critical angle opens up, and you loose more light out of facet interactions on the pavilion, technically the stone is then ''duller''
2) The contrast pattern you then see might change as a result, either increasing or decreasing, depending on the cut of the stone, and the stone might appear ''better'', but it can''t be any ''brighter'' overall as it doesn''t change the basic internal reflectivity, just the light loss at the diamond/grease/air interface, that''s the optical physics as I see it. Trade off, pattern or uniformity in lower brilliance, or higher brilliance with possibly more contrast
3) Now given that most people don''t take care of, or bother to clean their stones (amazing the amount of cookie dough you see), cutting stones like this to enhance the ''slob'' effect might be an idea, someone might even trademark it something like the Lazy8
i.e. shallower diamonds look much better than slightly deeper diamonds when both are dirty.
Belle, sorry not responding sooner, we''re moving today, so things are a bit hectic.Date: 3/16/2006 4:56:32 PM
Author: belle
rod, i hope you were not offended by my spell check!Date: 3/16/2006 4:43:35 PM
Author: Rod
Thanks for spell-checking meDate: 3/16/2006 4:36:28 PM
Author: belle
(presbyopia)Date: 3/16/2006 4:23:52 PM
Author: Rod
Sure, John, it''s called Presmyopia and like most adults my age, I now wear glasses to correct the spring that broke around the time I turned 40. That said, since my vision with glasses is basically as good as it was when I was younger, I would think I would see the same thing as a younger person sees when looking at a diamond. So what does the fact that ''older'' people preferred the shallower cut diamond mean? Perhaps the ''older'' people were asked not to wear glasses, or contacts? I guess I just find it interesting that categorically, ''older'' people preferred the shallower stone?
rod, did you do your diamond shopping with or without your glasses? the reason garry cites for older people preferring shallow stones, is that they are effected differently by head obscuration. as you bring the diamond closer in viewing range (as an older, presbyopic person would do) more light is obstructed by the head effecting the apperance of the diamond.And yes, I shopped with my glasses. I do everything with my glasses. They''re no-line bifocal, so I believe I see as well with my glasses as ''them youngsters do.'' By gummit the old man said as he whistles through his dentures........LOLmy medical side took over for a minute there...sorry!
how does your diamond look with glasses and without? do you notice the effects of obscuration?
Sergeys correct for that ammended condition.Date: 3/17/2006 3:02:10 PM
Author: Serg
re:I have begged Sergey to make a modelling option in DiamCalc to put 'virtual' grease on the diamond pavilion).
Garry,
If you agree to put 'virtual' grease on the whole diamond , enough change RI. You can do it in Diamcalc right now.
Garry The light is comming at the diamond in a uniformly distribution of angles from above with the distribution +/- 2 degrees (or +/- 30 degrees) from the table normal..Date: 3/17/2006 5:07:32 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Marty could you explain the difference between 30 - 2 degrees etc ?
Does it mean the average lighting direction or the average viewing direction differences etc?
And can you give us a simple analysis of the differences?
also the verticle arrangement makes it very hard to compare results.
Sergey - usually the top of a diamond rubs on things and stays relatively clean.
It is the pavilion that is almost always dirty.
(Trivia: Diamond has the highest ability for grease to stick to it of any substance)
Thanks Marty.Date: 3/17/2006 6:08:55 PM
Author: adamasgem
Garry The light is comming at the diamond in a uniformly distribution of angles from above with the distribution +/- 2 degrees (or +/- 30 degrees) from the table normal..
Not much you can say regarding the 2D analysis, other than for the profile view, higher angle lighting (like from overhead) is more effected by pavilion light loss due to grease than shallower angle lighting.
Please, If you don''t like my arrangement, then cut and paste side by side in another arrangement
Date: 3/17/2006 6:24:33 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Thanks Marty.Date: 3/17/2006 6:08:55 PM
Author: adamasgem
Garry The light is comming at the diamond in a uniformly distribution of angles from above with the distribution +/- 2 degrees (or +/- 30 degrees) from the table normal..
Not much you can say regarding the 2D analysis, other than for the profile view, higher angle lighting (like from overhead) is more effected by pavilion light loss due to grease than shallower angle lighting.
Please, If you don''t like my arrangement, then cut and paste side by side in another arrangement
So we could say that from a face up position that the dirty shallow stone would have a less see thru look and return more light, but once you rock the stones thru + - 30 degrees - there would be very little difference? No you can''t say that from what I have postedIt all depends on the lighting, I haven''t simulated tilt, two entirely different things
Here is an interesting idea - what would you choose - a diamond that is OK - just OK - or one that has more sparkle, but includes some dark zones that you can see sometimes? I happen to like contrast, "sparkle" can get lost at any distance, I happen to like broadflash.
The question is like.... would you sacrafice accepting something bad, to get something better, or would people prefer to not risk having some bad just to get some good. I need to think about a btter way to frame this question. Yes, I agree with you about framing the question