Good New Yorker piece on gender and public bathrooms

[missy]

^^What do they mean by inadequate bathroom facilities for women? Does that mean waiting in line?

That is how I interpreted it. The fact is we never seem to have enough bathroom facilities at public venues. Be it Broadway shows, sporting events etc. There is always a line for the women's room and never one for the men's room.

Telephone I don't think it has anything to do with putting women on a pedestal. No we are still treated as second class citizens in many ways so that runs contrary to what you wrote. We get paid less for the same job, treated as inferior in so many ways and we still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment.
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org

Talk about first world problems
*gasp* imagine the horror of occasionally waiting in line for a bathroom... It's not that I can't sympathize, because I've waited in my fair-share of bathroom lines, but life is full of waiting in lines.

You miss my point. I was just answering your question. What I said before that (read the post before) was that more importantly it raises the question of social discrimination.

Here you go momhappy:

I think it is the fairer way to go. Going past the waiting on line argument which pales in comparison to the heart of this issue which is social discrimination IMO.


http://www.abebooks.com/9780044409588/Apartheid-Sex-Manifesto-Freedom-Gender-0044409583/plp

In “The Apartheid of Sex: A Manifesto on the Freedom of Gender,” Martine Rothblatt, a transgender lawyer, draws the parallel between race and gender segregation. Rothblatt asserts, “As with race, restroom segregation reinforces social discrimination. It took laws to eliminate "whites only" lavatories. It took laws to mandate handicapped toilets. And it is taking laws to redress inadequate bathroom facilities for women.”

 

[momhappy]

^^What do they mean by inadequate bathroom facilities for women? Does that mean waiting in line?

That is how I interpreted it. The fact is we never seem to have enough bathroom facilities at public venues. Be it Broadway shows, sporting events etc. There is always a line for the women's room and never one for the men's room.

Telephone I don't think it has anything to do with putting women on a pedestal. No we are still treated as second class citizens in many ways so that runs contrary to what you wrote. We get paid less for the same job, treated as inferior in so many ways and we still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment.
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org

Talk about first world problems
*gasp* imagine the horror of occasionally waiting in line for a bathroom... It's not that I can't sympathize, because I've waited in my fair-share of bathroom lines, but life is full of waiting in lines.

You miss my point. I was just answering your question. What I said before that (read the post before) was that more importantly it raises the question of social discrimination.

I read that, missy, but again, I don't agree. I think that some things get blown out of proportion and this is one of them. Outside of the fact that I might roll my eyes from time to time, waiting in line for a bathroom has never cause me any more harm than waiting in line at the DMV, or the bank, of the register at the grocery store. I don't read more into it simply because it's a women's bathroom and therefore, I must be discriminated against.

 

[missy]

I respect your opinion mom happy and I also don't like blowing things out of proportion. However the fact that the ERA is still not passed...doesn't that make you think? I mean we are in 2016 and we still don't have an E.R.A.

http://www.equalrightsamendment.org

 

[telephone89]

^^What do they mean by inadequate bathroom facilities for women? Does that mean waiting in line?

That is how I interpreted it. The fact is we never seem to have enough bathroom facilities at public venues. Be it Broadway shows, sporting events etc. There is always a line for the women's room and never one for the men's room.

Telephone I don't think it has anything to do with putting women on a pedestal. No we are still treated as second class citizens in many ways so that runs contrary to what you wrote. We get paid less for the same job, treated as inferior in so many ways and we still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment.
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org

I don't disagree in general with social discrimination. Just the backlash I've heard regarding this specific issue comes off as women on a pedestal deal.

 

[Jambalaya]

I'm with Momhappy. Given a choice, I would always use a women-only restroom, and I agree that it's gender politics gone crazy to think it all must be unisex. The sexes are different and I think that each deserves privacy around bathroom activities and grooming. To give that privacy to each gender even in public places is one small sign of a civilized society, IMHO. Regarding the transgender issue, women who have transitioned to men consider themselves men, live as men, and use bathrooms for men, and vice versa. I'm not sure why bathrooms need to be unisex for that reason. Transgender people aren't unisex - they're still male or female, whichever one they have elected to be. From what I know, people who have transitioned seem to feel strongly that were born one gender but are actually the opposite one. I haven't heard of anyone saying that they strongly feel they are neither, but of course that could exist.

What do you think of unisex changing rooms at swimming pools? (Multi-stall, not one room, like family changing rooms.) I'm against. I was in one once and a man peeked over the top of the stall at me when I was naked.

 

[missy]

Telephone, I have never heard this women on a pedestal business as being the reason to keep separate bathrooms. Do you have any links to share going into more detail about this?

 

[telephone89]

Telephone, I have never heard this women on a pedestal business as being the reason to keep separate bathrooms. Do you have any links to share going into more detail about this?

I don't know how credible these are as far as media goes, but in Canada, there was a bill passed/going to pass regarding education. This does include a portion about bathrooms. I have family in Northern Alberta (rural, conservative) who often post articles talking about how dangerous this is for our girls, and the like. I literally searched' alberta girls in trouble' and the articles regarding this schooling issue came up. So the articles contain much more than just bathrooms, but it's a small part.

http://www.troymedia.com/2016/01/25/albertas-gender-guidelines-override-parents-right-to-choose/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/dont-let-alberta-schools-controversy-become-a-battle-of-rights/article28340180/

Even less temperate voices attacked the government for putting girls at greater risk of sexual assault.

http://www.news1130.com/2016/01/21/catholic-archbishop-slams-school-trustees-for-backing-albertas-lgbtq-plan/

They include allowing transgender students to use the washroom of their choice and play on sports teams they identify with.

I forgot about the sports thing until I looked for this article. There are also parents worried that boys might a) start wanting to play sports with females and try to grope them (gymnastics maybe? Not sure) and b) girls might want to play boys sports where they are too rough, and will hurt the girls.

This is what I mean with the pedestal. It's still discrimination, in that 'people' think that girls are always the victim. Girls need to be protected (likely by a man), girls need to have someone stand up for them (a man?), girls need someone to tell the boys to back off (oh wait, probably a man). It's still gender inequality, and putting women on a pedestal does nothing to further any sort of equality. I wasn't disagreeing with you in the fact that women ARE still discriminated against, just from what I've heard, the bathrooms thing takes it from another side.

Instead of teaching girls to be scared of unisex bathrooms, we should teach all kids not to be predators.

 

[missy]

Thanks Telephone and yes keeping bathrooms gender specific does promote inequality IMO. Interesting piece I found while searching for some more info. And it backs up what you were saying about women. "beliefs about women's vulnerability"
Seems we are past much of that (I hope!) and should change the rules/laws to reflect the times.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/it-s-man-s-and-woman-s-world/201509/why-some-welcome-unisex-bathrooms-and-some-steer-clear

At the recent American Sociological Association (ASA) annual meeting in Chicago, I noticed an unspoken social rule governing unisex restroom use. To clarify: I don’t mean unisex single-user restrooms. Rather, ASA taped paper unisex signs over the usual signs designating multi-user restrooms as for women or men. Such restrooms house several conventional toilet stalls. In temporarily-converted male restrooms, urinals are blocked off. On their website, the ASA explained that unisex restrooms equalize access for everyone regardless of gender identity (ASA 2013).

As a gender scholar, I have long been aware that sex-segregated restrooms reinforce cultural beliefs about gender, creating difference where biologically there is none. (Women and men do much the same thing in restrooms.) (Goffman, 1977). They also exclude those outside the narrowly-defined gender binary (Lucal, 1999).

I understand and support ASA’s inclusive de-gendering of multi-user restrooms.

But in practice, unisex restrooms may have far from egalitarian consequences—at least until the wider restroom-using public adapts to the concept. While washing my hands in one of the multi-user unisex restrooms, it struck me that all of the other users were also women. So I stationed myself in the hallway opposite the restroom door and settled down to observe.

Both women and men often hesitated upon seeing the unisex restroom sign, but whereas women proceeded into the restroom, the majority of men turned away. Why, I wondered, did men appear to experience greater discomfort with unisex restrooms?

To gain insight into this de facto gendered exclusion, I asked several colleagues about their attitudes toward multi-user unisex restrooms, and whether they had used such a restroom at the conference. Men expressed far greater discomfort, and were more likely to have avoided such restrooms. Their concerns centered on the potential for misinterpretation if they were mistakenly perceived to be watching women, and the possibility that their presence might make the women uncomfortable. Men who actually had braved the unisex restrooms stated that differences in gendered restroom cultures only added to their discomfort. Women are more relaxed and chatty in public restrooms and make less effort to avoid eye contact or adjacent stalls (Moore, 2012); both behaviors violate stricter male norms of restroom etiquette.

These findings are consistent with extant research: Despite paternalistic motivations for sex-segregated restrooms (Kogan, 2010), men express a greater sense of vulnerability and discomfort in public multi-user (single-sex) restrooms than women do. Concerns about “being watched and being mistakenly perceived to be watching” (Moore, 2012) result in strict norms of avoiding interaction and eye contact and respecting personal space (Middlemist, 1976). This apparently homophobic fear of sexual assault and stigma (if perceived as gay) might be alleviated by the presence of women in a multi-user unisex restroom, but instead men recast their anxieties into a heterosexual context. The fear that they might be perceived as watching women, and the fear that women might be made uncomfortable or afraid echoes men’s own experiences and emotions in all-male restrooms.

In reality, these fears may be exaggerated: Women did not express discomfort or concern about sharing restrooms, possibly because sexual assault would be unlikely in a crowded restroom.

Although initially interested in the present-day gender dynamics multi-user unisex restrooms, my investigation sparked an interest in the history—and likely future—of sex-segregated restrooms. Why are restrooms sex-segregated at all, even when they are single-user? Men and women generally share toilets in private life—there is clearly no biological necessity for segregation. Rather, according to author and law professor Terry S. Kogan (2010), sex-segregated single-user restrooms are a relic of Victorian-era prudery, anxiety over women’s entry into new social roles, and beliefs about women’s vulnerability.

Today, the sex segregation of single-user restrooms has actually been codified into law in several states—a rule which proponents of “potty parity,” such as Slate writer Ted Trautman, argue is silly and inefficient.

Clearly, there is a movement in favor of de-gendering single-user restrooms, but will multi-user unisex restrooms become the new normal? In my brief research, I did not locate many advocates of unisex multi-user restrooms—apparently, ASA is in the avant garde of potty parity.

In my estimation, we are unlikely to see broad adoption of multi-user unisex restrooms anytime soon. The controversy over unisex single-user restrooms suggests that we are far from an era of gender-neutral toiling.

 

[kenny]

Fascinating read Missy ... especially the part about men fearing being perceived as gay if they talk or even make eye contact in a public restroom.
This is SO true!

I suspect that far far far in the future when being gay is 100% no big deal everywhere men will be as comfortable in public restrooms as women apparently are.

Maybe some day this will be commonplace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ09paQRBnw

 

[missy]

^ LOLOL

 

[monarch64]

Instead of teaching girls to be scared of unisex bathrooms, we should teach all kids not to be predators.

Yes. Same with rapists, stop blaming the victims and start teaching the perpetrators not to force themselves on others. I understand the pedestal idea, Telephone. Couldn't agree more.

 

[kenny]

Instead of teaching girls to be scared of unisex bathrooms, we should teach all kids not to be predators.

Yes. Same with rapists, stop blaming the victims and start teaching the perpetrators not to force themselves on others. I understand the pedestal idea, Telephone. Couldn't agree more.

I agree too ... AND ... till the day arrives when no more bad things happen let's be careful about current dangers.
Being careful is not victim blaming; it's being wise.

 

[yennyfire]

My university had a "co-ed bathrooms after 12am" rule and we all hated it so much that we (as a dorm) over ruled it. Now, part of that was because of the shower situation, but I would still not be comfortable in a bathroom with men. I also hate sending my young son (age 11) into the men's room. Once he got too old to come to the ladies room with me, I told him to always go into a stall (even if he only had to urinate), because I felt like he was a tiny bit safer in a locked stall than with his pants down at a urinal. It just makes me cringe. I have no such qualms about my 9 year old daughter going into the ladies room by herself. Double standard? You bet, but I'll risk offending someone to keep my kids safe and men are much more likely than women to be sexual predators.

 

[telephone89]

Instead of teaching girls to be scared of unisex bathrooms, we should teach all kids not to be predators.

Yes. Same with rapists, stop blaming the victims and start teaching the perpetrators not to force themselves on others. I understand the pedestal idea, Telephone. Couldn't agree more.

Exactly! We will get so much further ahead that way!

@Missy - that was a very interesting article, thank you for posting! That is very interesting hearing from the male POV. I knew there were fundamental differences in the bathroom environment (chatty, 'hang out' place vs get in and get out) but didn't realize how deep it ran. Fascinating.

 

[kenny]

... men are much more likely than women to be sexual predators.

Wow you are so right ... 95% per below link.

I was curious so I Googled it and found this. http://www.csom.org/pubs/needtoknow_fs.pdf

How Many Arrests Occur for Sex Offenses?

Sex offenses represent under 1% of all arrests. In 2004, the last year for which official report data were available, there were 26,066 arrests for forcible rape and 90,913 arrests for other sex offenses in the United States. Adults account for about 80% of arrests; juveniles for 20%. Males account for approximately 95% of arrests.

 

[Laila619]

My university had a "co-ed bathrooms after 12am" rule and we all hated it so much that we (as a dorm) over ruled it. Now, part of that was because of the shower situation, but I would still not be comfortable in a bathroom with men. I also hate sending my young son (age 11) into the men's room. Once he got too old to come to the ladies room with me, I told him to always go into a stall (even if he only had to urinate), because I felt like he was a tiny bit safer in a locked stall than with his pants down at a urinal. It just makes me cringe. I have no such qualms about my 9 year old daughter going into the ladies room by herself. Double standard? You bet, but I'll risk offending someone to keep my kids safe and men are much more likely than women to be sexual predators.

There was a 9 year old boy, Matthew Cecchi, who was brutally murdered when he was using a public bathroom while his aunt waited right outside the door. So horribly sad. Stories like that make me not ever want to let my son go alone. He's 5 now and he still goes into the ladies' room with me. Sad that the world is full of such predators.

 

[Laila619]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

 

[Maria D]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

I never understood this either! Yes, it might take a *little* bit longer than a man, who has a fly zipper and possibly underwear with a flap, but why sooooo much longer? But then at a wedding last year, two women waiting in line were talking about how long it took to undo all their spanx to pee. Is this why? (I've never worn spanx.)

I'm not comfortable peeing in public with anyone in the stall next to me, man or woman. Never mind any other "business." At the airport in Rome I was *thrilled* to find that their public bathroom stalls had side walls and doors ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FLOOR. It was the only time I've ever been comfortable in a multi-stall public bathroom - and I would have been fine if that one were unisex (it wasn't). Walls and doors to the floor - so civilized, why aren't they all this way?

There's a bowling alley in Portland Maine that has separate areas for toilet stalls but they open up to one common area for sinks/dryers. It's a little odd at first, washing your hands next to a guy, but only because it's different.

 

[canuk-gal]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

HI:

Of course, not all of these apply to all females all the time, ...just a guess on the (possibilities of ) to add time... I didn't not include talking on the phone while in the stall...yes, I have "learned" this is more common than I imagined....

undo belt, pull down pants + tights or spankx, fumble in purse for feminine HP then exchange the same while while looking for the receptacle and contemplate whether you want to touch it/have to look into it, hope there is TP for you (if not call next door), finish your business, pull up layers and smooth out. Make sure you have your handbag/bags/coat upon exit.

Men just zero in on the target--pants and underwear designed for the same. With limited concern for "drops" left behind (well in front). Very efficient!

cheers--Sharon

 

[packrat]

I take a long time. I can't just sit down and pee. And those who can like, PEE like you mean it, I applaud you, I've never been that way. I'm a slow emptier, and then I have to wait once I'm done b/c if I don't, there's some straggler urine yelling wait for me!! that decides to exit as I'm pulling up my pants. And if I have my period, and I'm in public, tack on some extra time b/c I need to be like a cat and cover/wrap up everything for disposal. Now, not to say it takes me 20 minutes in the stall, but even 1 minute longer than "normal" women, is a long time.

As much as I'd like the world to be an Eden, it's not, so alongside teaching our kids how to behave, how to be good people, we'll teach them what to do should they encounter bad people. To me, it's no different than driving--we're not worried about *our* driving, are we? We always say "I'm not worried about MY driving, I'm worried about the other cars". Shouldn't need to wear a seat belt-in a perfect world, we'd never have an accident and never need it, but we wear them to prevent. So our kids are going to know what to do, to prevent and protect, should an event happen. Maybe it never will, but they'll be prepared regardless. JD deals w/things like that on a daily basis.

I dunno..I feel like we as a people are not really "adult" enough. We're very big into shaming each other for everything.

 

[momhappy]

^and since you brought up your period - that's another reason why I don't want to "share" bathrooms with men. Not only do I not want to pee in the stall next to a guy, but I don't want to deal with my monthly cycle next to him either And while I get that each stall is enclosed and semi-private, it's still awkward. Even in my own home, I do those things behind a closed door. Do men and women have to share everything these days?

 

[Dancing Fire]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

Putting on their make-ups while taking care of business?..

 

[packrat]

yes b/c we have to be equal in every way shape and form.

 

[Maria D]

^and since you brought up your period - that's another reason why I don't want to "share" bathrooms with men. Not only do I not want to pee in the stall next to a guy, but I don't want to deal with my monthly cycle next to him either And while I get that each stall is enclosed and semi-private, it's still awkward. Even in my own home, I do those things behind a closed door. Do men and women have to share everything these days?

And why is it semi-private? BECAUSE THE WALLS AND DOOR DO NOT REACH THE FLOOR. And there's that insidious gap between the door and the frame where you always feel like someone is peering in to see if you are really in there. Horrendous.

Seriously, the stall at Fiumicino was wonderful. No gap along the floor OR the frame. Why do we need a foot of empty space between us and our neighboring stall mate? Are we Elaine Benis begging for someone to spare a square?

 

[kenny]

^and since you brought up your period - that's another reason why I don't want to "share" bathrooms with men. Not only do I not want to pee in the stall next to a guy, but I don't want to deal with my monthly cycle next to him either And while I get that each stall is enclosed and semi-private, it's still awkward. Even in my own home, I do those things behind a closed door. Do men and women have to share everything these days?

I suspect eventually all public restrooms will be for everyone and that stalls will be changed to completely private and enclosed little rooms to accommodate everyone's wishes.
Each stall will offer the same privacy as a separate room.

 

[kenny]

^and since you brought up your period - that's another reason why I don't want to "share" bathrooms with men. Not only do I not want to pee in the stall next to a guy, but I don't want to deal with my monthly cycle next to him either And while I get that each stall is enclosed and semi-private, it's still awkward. Even in my own home, I do those things behind a closed door. Do men and women have to share everything these days?

And why is it semi-private? BECAUSE THE WALLS AND DOOR DO NOT REACH THE FLOOR. And there's that insidious gap between the door and the frame where you always feel like someone is peering in to see if you are really in there. Horrendous.

Seriously, the stall at Fiumicino was wonderful. No gap along the floor OR the frame. Why do we need a foot of empty space between us and our neighboring stall mate? Are we Elaine Benis begging for someone to spare a square?

I suspect stalls not reaching the floor was not some evil conspiracy.
It was only to facilitate faster, easier, and more-thorough cleaning/sanitation of the floor around toilets.
Floor to ceiling walls and no-gap doors will be easy to provide when people raise the concern as a result of bathrooms converting to use by all.

The elimination of that space under the walls between stalls will also stop a 'straight' and happily married anti-gay Republican Idaho senator like Larry Craig, aka Wide Stance Larry , from cruising for gay sex in public bathrooms.

 

[ksinger]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

I never understood this either! Yes, it might take a *little* bit longer than a man, who has a fly zipper and possibly underwear with a flap, but why sooooo much longer? But then at a wedding last year, two women waiting in line were talking about how long it took to undo all their spanx to pee. Is this why? (I've never worn spanx.)

I'm not comfortable peeing in public with anyone in the stall next to me, man or woman. Never mind any other "business." At the airport in Rome I was *thrilled* to find that their public bathroom stalls had side walls and doors ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FLOOR. It was the only time I've ever been comfortable in a multi-stall public bathroom - and I would have been fine if that one were unisex (it wasn't). Walls and doors to the floor - so civilized, why aren't they all this way?

There's a bowling alley in Portland Maine that has separate areas for toilet stalls but they open up to one common area for sinks/dryers. It's a little odd at first, washing your hands next to a guy, but only because it's different.

Yes, this. Same in Ireland. I echo your so civilized and why aren't American toilets like this?

I wouldn't give a rip about using a toilet with men, if the stalls were actually private instead of often having gaps so large that real privacy is a joke. They might as well have left the undersized door OFF and saved the money. I'm not even comfortable with other women in some of toilets due to the pitifulness of the stall doors and walls.

 

[missy]

Re the stall walls and doors going down to the floor, they do exist in the USA. It's just not commonplace unfortunately but I have seen this (usually in more upscale establishments) and I agree. Much more civilized. Short hills Mall in NJ is one such place that has these stalls. Very nice indeed.

 

[missy]

LOL my friend just sent this to me. Haha.

 

[chrono]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

This is the underlying issue, not that women need more stalls than men, because most women's toilets have more stalls than men's. I have no clue why women take forever to get their business done!