Good New Yorker piece on gender and public bathrooms

[momhappy]

Even if the walls/doors of each stall were completely enclosed, I still wouldn't want to share a bathroom with men. I just don't see the need for unisex bathrooms and I think it's taking equality, neutrality, or whatever you want to call it, a bit too far IMO.

 

[ksinger]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

This is the underlying issue, not that women need more stalls than men, because most women's toilets have more stalls than men's. I have no clue why women take forever to get their business done!

I'm so relieved now that the both of you have defined for your entire gender and all age ranges, what is the proper amount of time in a toilet. I'm assuming you've timed yourselves and are going to let the rest of us know so we'll have something to put on our stopwatches?

 

[chrono]

KSinger,
I said no such thing and I want to make it clear that that isn't what I meant. I only said that I have no idea WHY women take so long. How that was misinterpreted as I know the "proper amount of time in the toilet" is mind boggling!

My post only said this:
Quote
This is the underlying issue, not that women need more stalls than men, because most women's toilets have more stalls than men's. I have no clue why women take forever to get their business done!
End quote

There is no mention of X amount of time anywhere.

 

[Laila619]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

This is the underlying issue, not that women need more stalls than men, because most women's toilets have more stalls than men's. I have no clue why women take forever to get their business done!

I'm so relieved now that the both of you have defined for your entire gender and all age ranges, what is the proper amount of time in a toilet. I'm assuming you've timed yourselves and are going to let the rest of us know so we'll have something to put on our stopwatches?

 

[ksinger]

I don't understand why women take so long in stalls. It's like come on! Just go, do your business, and be done. Takes me one minute. Lines are always so darn long that it's just dumb. I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Fortunately, I have a bladder of steel, lol.

This is the underlying issue, not that women need more stalls than men, because most women's toilets have more stalls than men's. I have no clue why women take forever to get their business done!

I'm so relieved now that the both of you have defined for your entire gender and all age ranges, what is the proper amount of time in a toilet. I'm assuming you've timed yourselves and are going to let the rest of us know so we'll have something to put on our stopwatches?

I was replying to both you Chrono, and laila619. I apologize for the extra level of snark. It was a bit unnecessary. But sometimes I do get tired of the endless variations of "I can't understand why they do X, because I do Y".

I am happy you are so speedy and don't hold up any lines or cause any impatience in anyone, probably anywhere. I truly hope that lasts forever for you both.

 

[monarch64]

Oh, wow. I have been sensitive about how long I take in the bathroom since second grade! My mother sent me to school in this romper thing that not only had buttons all the way down the front (one-piece, so the whole thing had to come down), it also had one of those fabric belts that involved D-rings you had to weave the other end of the belt back and forth through to "fasten" it. I was the last one in the bathroom and here came Sister Joan out of nowhere absolutely livid with me that I was taking so long and everyone else was lined up in the hall outside waiting to file outside to recess. It was a truly mortifying experience for a 2nd grader. I have done my best to be zippy ever since. When jumpsuits and romper-type one pieces came back into style a couple years ago I was like NO NOT THOSE THINGS AGAIN WHO CAN FUNCTION IN THEM??? Dumbest trend ever.

 

[yennyfire]

My university had a "co-ed bathrooms after 12am" rule and we all hated it so much that we (as a dorm) over ruled it. Now, part of that was because of the shower situation, but I would still not be comfortable in a bathroom with men. I also hate sending my young son (age 11) into the men's room. Once he got too old to come to the ladies room with me, I told him to always go into a stall (even if he only had to urinate), because I felt like he was a tiny bit safer in a locked stall than with his pants down at a urinal. It just makes me cringe. I have no such qualms about my 9 year old daughter going into the ladies room by herself. Double standard? You bet, but I'll risk offending someone to keep my kids safe and men are much more likely than women to be sexual predators.

There was a 9 year old boy, Matthew Cecchi, who was brutally murdered when he was using a public bathroom while his aunt waited right outside the door. So horribly sad. Stories like that make me not ever want to let my son go alone. He's 5 now and he still goes into the ladies' room with me. Sad that the world is full of such predators.

That's the story of my nightmares.

Yes Kenny, it's a sad statistic. It's one of the reasons I never encouraged my son to do Cub Scouts and I always watched his practices, etc. (rather than dropping off/coming back). My husband has coached many a basketball team for this reason, though the time is coming when he wont be equipped to teach the skills the kids need.


I grew up in Chattanooga, TN where that horrible case of rape/sodomy was perpetrated against a teammate during an away meet occurred. So I definitely feel like my son is more at risk than my daughter in many cases. I hate feeling this way, but I feel like I'm better off being cautious rather than tragically regretting some decision I made...

 

[Jambalaya]

Oh, wow. I have been sensitive about how long I take in the bathroom since second grade! My mother sent me to school in this romper thing that not only had buttons all the way down the front (one-piece, so the whole thing had to come down), it also had one of those fabric belts that involved D-rings you had to weave the other end of the belt back and forth through to "fasten" it. I was the last one in the bathroom and here came Sister Joan out of nowhere absolutely livid with me that I was taking so long and everyone else was lined up in the hall outside waiting to file outside to recess. It was a truly mortifying experience for a 2nd grader. I have done my best to be zippy ever since. When jumpsuits and romper-type one pieces came back into style a couple years ago I was like NO NOT THOSE THINGS AGAIN WHO CAN FUNCTION IN THEM??? Dumbest trend ever. :angryfire:

Monarch, this was obviously a very traumatic experience for you! Imagine a safe world where you never have to see romper suit or a D belt ever again! Breathe, breathe! They can't hurt you anymore!

 

[purplesparklies]

There was a 9 year old boy, Matthew Cecchi, who was brutally murdered when he was using a public bathroom while his aunt waited right outside the door. So horribly sad. Stories like that make me not ever want to let my son go alone. He's 5 now and he still goes into the ladies' room with me. Sad that the world is full of such predators.

Oh, how awful! I have heard of too many cases of egregious acts being perpetrated on young boys in bathrooms. When my older son first started going into the men's room alone, I would stand just outside the door with my foot in the door preventing it from closing completely and I would talk with him while he was inside so I could hear in his voice if there was a problem. I couldn't see anything but I wanted to be able to hear what was happening in there. By the time my younger son was ready to go to the men's room, I sent them together and did the foot in the door but had them talk to each other and occasionally ask me a question if anyone else was in there so that person would hear me and know I was right there. No one ever messed with them and many men who passed me on their way out told me that they thought it was a great idea and would suggest it to their wife/daughter/etc. and they would do the same if they were out with a little girl who needed to use the ladies room.

ETA: Now my boys are pretty big and getting ready to test for their black belt test in Tae Kwon Do. Now I need them to protect me.

 

[packrat]

When men wear panty hose and have to sit down and get up, every time, and have to situate clothing, make sure skirts aren't stuck in underwear and whatever else women have to do, maybe it will start taking them longer. I can't just whip it out and pee and shove it back in and walk out the door. I'm making sure all my dribbles are done and then I'm taking the time to make sure I don't leave any drops on the seat and I'm making sure there aren't any left behind from the previous tenant before *I* sit down, and I don't open the door until the toilet has flushed, first to make sure it is complete and second, who wants to see any of that swirling around if they're coming in? B/c if there's a line, the second that door opens, another woman is stepping forward.

 

[packrat]

purplesparklies--congratulations to your almost black belt boys!!

 

[kenny]

... then I'm taking the time to make sure I don't leave any drops on the seat and I'm making sure there aren't any left behind from the previous tenant before *I* sit down

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

 

[purplesparklies]

purplesparklies--congratulations to your almost black belt boys!!

Thanks, Packrat! They have worked very hard and I am pretty stinking proud. Black belts at 14 & 10. Not bad! Test is on Feb. 13 so it is coming fast!

 

[purplesparklies]

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

^^^ That is why I don't wish to share facilities with men. We just don't have the same....priorities. Blech!

 

[chrono]

Then there's the seat up/down thing too.

Purple,
My boys and I are also practitioners of TKD. Good luck on the belt tests. My youngest is testing for 1st Dan this March and my eldest received his 2nd Dan last year.

 

[momhappy]

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

^^^ That is why I don't wish to share facilities with men. We just don't have the same....priorities. Blech!

We don't have the same anything - the same equipment, the same technique, the same needs.... I still find the concept of unisex bathrooms utterly ridiculous.

 

[Jambalaya]

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

^^^ That is why I don't wish to share facilities with men. We just don't have the same....priorities. Blech!

We don't have the same anything - the same equipment, the same technique, the same needs.... I still find the concept of unisex bathrooms utterly ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more, Momhappy. As I wrote upthread, I agree that it's gender politics gone crazy to think it all must be unisex. The sexes are different and I think that each deserves privacy around toileting and grooming. To give that privacy to each gender even in public places is one small sign of a civilized society, IMHO.

ETA: In some of the quoted material above, the writer made the point that men and women share bathrooms at home. But what couple uses one bathroom between them at home if there is the choice to have one each? From what I observe, the vast majority of couples have separate bathrooms if their space and circumstances allow it.

 

[packrat]

... then I'm taking the time to make sure I don't leave any drops on the seat and I'm making sure there aren't any left behind from the previous tenant before *I* sit down

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

I've got two at home and yeaahhhh it's not a pretty sight. My brother is pretty damn fastidious about his bathroom habits-I'd share a bathroom w/him. My husband, son, and my dad? Nope.

Chrono, that's so awesome!

Our test is coming up toward the end of February too-I will only be high green tho-I'm having a heart attack about my board break. London has two more tests and she will be at the highest brown rank, ready for temporary black. 14 and 10, that's really wonderful! London will be 13 and Trapper..he will be probably 10 b/c it will be next year since he just got his third temporary brown rank in December. I'll be....43 probably, when I test for mine! If I can get that far--my head is spinning trying to remember all these forms and one steps etc, plus definitions eeek!

 

[kenny]

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

^^^ That is why I don't wish to share facilities with men. We just don't have the same....priorities. Blech!

We don't have the same anything - the same equipment, the same technique, the same needs.... I still find the concept of unisex bathrooms utterly ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more, Momhappy. As I wrote upthread, I agree that it's gender politics gone crazy to think it all must be unisex. The sexes are different and I think that each deserves privacy around toileting and grooming. To give that privacy to each gender even in public places is one small sign of a civilized society, IMHO.

ETA: In some of the quoted material above, the writer made the point that men and women share bathrooms at home. But what couple uses one bathroom between them at home if there is the choice to have one each? From what I observe, the vast majority of couples have separate bathrooms if their space and circumstances allow it.

The problem is the 2-bathroom paradigm only works when there are two genders.
We are coming to realize that it's not that simple.
People vary in this way too.

People who do not fit nicely into either of the past's two 'jars' have rights too, well, I feel they should.
I don't know what the facilities answer is but it's not to stick our heads in the sand, cling to a tradition we now know to be discriminatory, or make these people just go away.

Maybe the best answer is the most expensive one, 3 rooms.
MEN'S
WOMEN'S
One labeled something else, perhaps FAMILY.

 

[Jambalaya]

In a more general sense, I know there is a particular PC line of thought that likes to think men and women are all the same. This unisex bathroom issue is part of that. In some spheres, this is correct, such as equal pay for equal work. We are the same intelligence-wise and in many other ways. But our natures are largely different, our interests are different, and the reason for that is hormones which shape our brains in totally different ways. One is swilled with testosterone, one is swilled with estrogen. (Yes, I know we each have a tiny amount of the other.) Estrogen causes physical attributes of women such as curved hips and the feminization of our faces compared to men - smaller chin, for example - and it also has an effect on the inside as well as the outside. You can see on brain scans that the left and right sides of male and female brains have different connections - fewer in men, for example. Ask any parent of both a son and a daughter and they very often seem to say that they have observed gender differences which are hard-wired - for example, they give a boy a Barbie doll to play with and he pulls its head off, he doesn't cuddle it and nurture it.

Other parents I know have tried to give their little girls boy-toys and they are just not interested. I want to say that while I don't believe in reinforcing gender stereotypes unnecessarily - for example I wouldn't lead a daughter of mine to the pink toys or clothes and would be fine if she wanted an Action Man doll - but I also think that denying men and women their true natures is actually cruel. I remember a teacher at school when I was a young teen saying that girls never used the communal showers after sports but the boys just piled in. It is the nature of women to want more privacy than men around bathroom activities, and that's just the way it is. Women do not have a locker-room mentality about these things the way that many men do.

I think it is cruel to deny people their true natures. If we are all the same, how would we like it if the government ruled that not only must all bathrooms be unisex, but men and women must have equal amounts of jewelry, which neither will mind because we are the same and so therefore we must all have the same desire for jewelry.

The significantly greater desire for jewelry among women than men is a good example of the fact that the sexes are just different. You wouldn't deny an animal its true nature so why are we trying to do this to ourselves? Women wear makeup and pretty dresses and like shoes and jewelry because we just do. We are different from men. And that's the beautiful mystery of Mother Nature. Why can't we express our natures freely instead of trying to legislate them away with things like unisex bathrooms and swimming pool changing rooms? Why is it seen as such a cool thing to declare what a tomboy you were as a young girl, but you never hear a woman admitting "I wasn't a tomboy - I was dying to wear heels and makeup ever since I saw my mother getting dressed up when I was little." The makeup threads always seen to have women proudly declaring how little makeup they wear, too. Not just on PS but elsewhere. Women don't say as often, "Actually, I wear lots of makeup and always have. I love to wear it and spend time applying it and taking it off each day. I love to shop for makeup too." We have made feminine nature something to be hidden and ashamed of - and that's a double standard too, because there is still huge social pressure to look good - but we can't admit how hard we've worked on that, or how much we've enjoyed it.

Pah!

Not all women like the things listed at the beginning of the the above paragraph of course, but an overwhelming majority do.

 

[Jambalaya]

Oh Boy!
Wait till the bathrooms are integrated ... Women are going to HATE us men even more than they hate us now.

Men don't aim well.

In the stalls, y'alls are gonna be pissed!

^^^ That is why I don't wish to share facilities with men. We just don't have the same....priorities. Blech!

We don't have the same anything - the same equipment, the same technique, the same needs.... I still find the concept of unisex bathrooms utterly ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more, Momhappy. As I wrote upthread, I agree that it's gender politics gone crazy to think it all must be unisex. The sexes are different and I think that each deserves privacy around toileting and grooming. To give that privacy to each gender even in public places is one small sign of a civilized society, IMHO.

ETA: In some of the quoted material above, the writer made the point that men and women share bathrooms at home. But what couple uses one bathroom between them at home if there is the choice to have one each? From what I observe, the vast majority of couples have separate bathrooms if their space and circumstances allow it.

The problem is the two-bathroom paradigm only works when there are two genders.
We are coming to realize that it's not that simple.
People vary in this way too.

People who do not fit into either of the pasts two 'jars' have rights too, well, they should.
I don't know what the facilities answer is but it's not to stick our heads in the sand, cling to a tradition we now know to be discriminatory, or make these people just go away.

I addressed this issue upthread, Kenny, on page 2. To quote myself here: Regarding the transgender issue, women who have transitioned to men consider themselves men, live as men, and use bathrooms for men, and vice versa. I'm not sure why bathrooms need to be unisex for that reason. Transgender people aren't unisex - they're still male or female, whichever one they have elected to be. From what I know, people who have transitioned seem to feel strongly that were born one gender but are actually the opposite one. I haven't heard of anyone saying that they strongly feel they are neither, but of course that could exist.

Most transgender people have chosen to be the opposite gender, right? So a man who transitioned to a woman would use the women's room and vice versa.

If there is indeed a third gender where someone feels that they are truly neither male nor female, completely sexually neutral in every way, I wouldn't know what to suggest bathroom-wise but I would say that non-gendered people must be a very small number indeed, and it wouldn't be practical to install a third set of bathrooms in every public place for people who identify neither as male or female. Or perhaps that's not what you were suggesting. Perhaps you meant that you were concerned that women who had transitioned to men would still be expected to use the bathroom relevant to their birth gender, and vice versa.

 

[kenny]

In a more general sense, I know there is a particular PC line of thought that likes to think men and women are all the same.

I have to post something I read ... "That we should be equal does not mean we are the same."

 

[Jambalaya]

As you said above Kenny, there could be men's, women's, and instead of one marked Family there could be one marked Unisex. Then women and men who wanted to do their toileting only in the presence of their own gender could do so, ("own" gender meaning birth gender or transitioned gender) and people who identify as non-gendered or people who don't mind sharing facilities with the opposite sex could use the one marked Unisex. Then it's fair to everybody.

 

[kenny]

I'm just saying that a new third bathroom with only one toilet and a lock on the door could serve:

A parent with a child of the opposite gender 5 yr old child.
An adult changing a diaper of a child, or him/herself.
A trans person.
A man who doesn't want to take the chance there might be a gay man in the men's room.
A person with an embarrassing medical/health 'problem' such as noisy & stinky diarrhea.

There are many reasons our 2-room paradigm is not adequate.

 

[kenny]

As you said above Kenny, there could be men's, women's, and instead of one marked Family there could be one marked Unisex. Then women and men who wanted to do their toileting only in the presence of their own gender could do so, ("own" gender meaning birth gender or transitioned gender) and people who identify as non-gendered or people who don't mind sharing facilities with the opposite sex could use the one marked Unisex. Then it's fair to everybody.

Maybe not.
What if a person appearing to be a man (but identifies female and/or is in transition) enters the woman's bathroom because that's where she feels most comfortable?

This is all so messy.

 

[Jambalaya]

As you said above Kenny, there could be men's, women's, and instead of one marked Family there could be one marked Unisex. Then women and men who wanted to do their toileting only in the presence of their own gender could do so, ("own" gender meaning birth gender or transitioned gender) and people who identify as non-gendered or people who don't mind sharing facilities with the opposite sex could use the one marked Unisex. Then it's fair to everybody.

Maybe not.
What if a person appearing to be a man (but identifies female and/or is in transition) enters the woman's bathroom because that's where she feels most comfortable?

This is all so messy.

Yes, the transition period is difficult for a person undergoing that change, no doubt. But regarding what I wrote above, wouldn't the person use the Unisex one? I guess not, if she identified strongly as a woman and felt the need to use the women's restrooms, but still looked like a man. But I mean, you really can't create yet another separate bathroom again. I guess a person in transition who looked like one gender but is actually another could use the Disabled toilet because that is a gender neutral space. But then, so is the Unisex or the Family bathroom.

I can't imagine a person in transition feeling so strongly that she wanted to use her transition-gender bathroom that she would be traumatized by using a neutral room for a temporary time, until her physical looks are in harmony with the gender she feels herself to be. And vice versa.

 

[Jambalaya]

I'm just saying that a new third bathroom with only one toilet and a lock on the door could serve:

A parent with a child of the opposite gender 5 yr old child.
An adult changing a diaper of a child, or him/herself.
A trans person.
A man who doesn't want to take the chance there might be a gay man in the men's room.
A person with an embarrassing medical/health 'problem' such as noisy & stinky diarrhea.

There are many reasons our 2-room paradigm is not adequate.

I think that many people currently use the single Disabled toilets for these purposes, as they are often stand-alone toilet rooms.

But often, many Disabled toilets are in the gender bathrooms. I agree a neutral room for all that is a single toilet on its own would be a good plan, for the reasons you state.

 

[momhappy]

It doesn't have to be messy - it's just made that way by over-analyzing everything. The separate male/female bathroom concept has worked just fine. Women use women's bathrooms, men use men's bathrooms, and if you are trans, then you use the bathroom of the sex that you identify with. I suppose that may not account for absolutely everyone (those who identify as both/neither male & female, etc.), but there are few things in life that are not 100% accommodating 100% of the time...

 

[telephone89]

In a more general sense, I know there is a particular PC line of thought that likes to think men and women are all the same. This unisex bathroom issue is part of that. In some spheres, this is correct, such as equal pay for equal work. We are the same intelligence-wise and in many other ways. But our natures are largely different, our interests are different, and the reason for that is hormones which shape our brains in totally different ways. One is swilled with testosterone, one is swilled with estrogen. (Yes, I know we each have a tiny amount of the other.) Estrogen causes physical attributes of women such as curved hips and the feminization of our faces compared to men - smaller chin, for example - and it also has an effect on the inside as well as the outside. You can see on brain scans that the left and right sides of male and female brains have different connections - fewer in men, for example. Ask any parent of both a son and a daughter and they very often seem to say that they have observed gender differences which are hard-wired - for example, they give a boy a Barbie doll to play with and he pulls its head off, he doesn't cuddle it and nurture it.

Other parents I know have tried to give their little girls boy-toys and they are just not interested. I want to say that while I don't believe in reinforcing gender stereotypes unnecessarily - for example I wouldn't lead a daughter of mine to the pink toys or clothes and would be fine if she wanted an Action Man doll - but I also think that denying men and women their true natures is actually cruel. I remember a teacher at school when I was a young teen saying that girls never used the communal showers after sports but the boys just piled in. It is the nature of women to want more privacy than men around bathroom activities, and that's just the way it is. Women do not have a locker-room mentality about these things the way that many men do.

I think it is cruel to deny people their true natures. If we are all the same, how would we like it if the government ruled that not only must all bathrooms be unisex, but men and women must have equal amounts of jewelry, which neither will mind because we are the same and so therefore we must all have the same desire for jewelry.

The significantly greater desire for jewelry among women than men is a good example of the fact that the sexes are just different. You wouldn't deny an animal its true nature so why are we trying to do this to ourselves? Women wear makeup and pretty dresses and like shoes and jewelry because we just do. We are different from men. And that's the beautiful mystery of Mother Nature. Why can't we express our natures freely instead of trying to legislate them away with things like unisex bathrooms and swimming pool changing rooms? Why is it seen as such a cool thing to declare what a tomboy you were as a young girl, but you never hear a woman admitting "I wasn't a tomboy - I was dying to wear heels and makeup ever since I saw my mother getting dressed up when I was little." The makeup threads always seen to have women proudly declaring how little makeup they wear, too. Not just on PS but elsewhere. Women don't say as often, "Actually, I wear lots of makeup and always have. I love to wear it and spend time applying it and taking it off each day. I love to shop for makeup too." We have made feminine nature something to be hidden and ashamed of - and that's a double standard too, because there is still huge social pressure to look good - but we can't admit how hard we've worked on that, or how much we've enjoyed it.

Pah!

Not all women like the things listed at the beginning of the the above paragraph of course, but an overwhelming majority do.

Jambalaya, I must disagree.

We wear makeup because we just do? No. We wear makeup because we are sold on makeup from what, age 10? 13? If a boy wears makeup, he is considered a cross dresser, drag queen, weird. I know a TON of young boys who struggled with acne and wished it was acceptable for them to wear makeup. They would have been raked over the coals if they came to school in makeup. This is not a fundamental sex difference, this is society.
The same thing with jewellery. Men who wear too much jewellery are just not as socially accepted. And, if they do wear jewellery, it has to be of a certain type/placement. 1 earring? Fine. 2 earrings? NO WAY JOSE. Gold chain necklace? Cool. Pearl choker? Nope, not gonna fly.
I can say the same thing about changeroom/bathrooms. Women are often taught to 'protect' their bodies. I can 100% see how when you are raised with that notion that you wouldn't want to strip naked in front of 50 peers. Women are ashamed of their bodies when they have nothing to be ashamed of. Is that because we are born with this? No, I don't think it is. It is much more likely that society, parenting, etc have a much stronger pull.

 

[Jambalaya]

In a more general sense, I know there is a particular PC line of thought that likes to think men and women are all the same. This unisex bathroom issue is part of that. In some spheres, this is correct, such as equal pay for equal work. We are the same intelligence-wise and in many other ways. But our natures are largely different, our interests are different, and the reason for that is hormones which shape our brains in totally different ways. One is swilled with testosterone, one is swilled with estrogen. (Yes, I know we each have a tiny amount of the other.) Estrogen causes physical attributes of women such as curved hips and the feminization of our faces compared to men - smaller chin, for example - and it also has an effect on the inside as well as the outside. You can see on brain scans that the left and right sides of male and female brains have different connections - fewer in men, for example. Ask any parent of both a son and a daughter and they very often seem to say that they have observed gender differences which are hard-wired - for example, they give a boy a Barbie doll to play with and he pulls its head off, he doesn't cuddle it and nurture it.

Other parents I know have tried to give their little girls boy-toys and they are just not interested. I want to say that while I don't believe in reinforcing gender stereotypes unnecessarily - for example I wouldn't lead a daughter of mine to the pink toys or clothes and would be fine if she wanted an Action Man doll - but I also think that denying men and women their true natures is actually cruel. I remember a teacher at school when I was a young teen saying that girls never used the communal showers after sports but the boys just piled in. It is the nature of women to want more privacy than men around bathroom activities, and that's just the way it is. Women do not have a locker-room mentality about these things the way that many men do.

I think it is cruel to deny people their true natures. If we are all the same, how would we like it if the government ruled that not only must all bathrooms be unisex, but men and women must have equal amounts of jewelry, which neither will mind because we are the same and so therefore we must all have the same desire for jewelry.

The significantly greater desire for jewelry among women than men is a good example of the fact that the sexes are just different. You wouldn't deny an animal its true nature so why are we trying to do this to ourselves? Women wear makeup and pretty dresses and like shoes and jewelry because we just do. We are different from men. And that's the beautiful mystery of Mother Nature. Why can't we express our natures freely instead of trying to legislate them away with things like unisex bathrooms and swimming pool changing rooms? Why is it seen as such a cool thing to declare what a tomboy you were as a young girl, but you never hear a woman admitting "I wasn't a tomboy - I was dying to wear heels and makeup ever since I saw my mother getting dressed up when I was little." The makeup threads always seen to have women proudly declaring how little makeup they wear, too. Not just on PS but elsewhere. Women don't say as often, "Actually, I wear lots of makeup and always have. I love to wear it and spend time applying it and taking it off each day. I love to shop for makeup too." We have made feminine nature something to be hidden and ashamed of - and that's a double standard too, because there is still huge social pressure to look good - but we can't admit how hard we've worked on that, or how much we've enjoyed it.

Pah!

Not all women like the things listed at the beginning of the the above paragraph of course, but an overwhelming majority do.

Jambalaya, I must disagree.

We wear makeup because we just do? No. We wear makeup because we are sold on makeup from what, age 10? 13? If a boy wears makeup, he is considered a cross dresser, drag queen, weird. I know a TON of young boys who struggled with acne and wished it was acceptable for them to wear makeup. They would have been raked over the coals if they came to school in makeup. This is not a fundamental sex difference, this is society.
The same thing with jewellery. Men who wear too much jewellery are just not as socially accepted. And, if they do wear jewellery, it has to be of a certain type/placement. 1 earring? Fine. 2 earrings? NO WAY JOSE. Gold chain necklace? Cool. Pearl choker? Nope, not gonna fly.
I can say the same thing about changeroom/bathrooms. Women are often taught to 'protect' their bodies. I can 100% see how when you are raised with that notion that you wouldn't want to strip naked in front of 50 peers. Women are ashamed of their bodies when they have nothing to be ashamed of. Is that because we are born with this? No, I don't think it is. It is much more likely that society, parenting, etc have a much stronger pull.

It is interesting what you say, Telephone, and I agree with some of it. I have a male friend who is married with kids (to a woman) and has always had girlfriends, swears he isn't gay, but sometimes wears a subtle touch of makeup.

But, in the example you cite about the acne, isn't that a practical concern to hide an unsightly medical condition? I've had my fair share of male relatives, friends, partners etc, and none of them except that one example has shown the slightest interest in makeup for reasons to enhance and perfect something which already looks acceptable - that is, none except one I know have shown any interest in "beauty." I also think that jewelry is more acceptable on men than makeup. There is more than one male server at the local restaurants who wear large CZ studs in each ear. The servers are gay, admittedly. I've never known a straight man express any desire to wear jewelry. No men in my life have ever wandered over to my jewelry box or makeup bag, or asked questions about the makeup and jewelry that I'm wearing, or really even noticed that I'm wearing those things. I've even asked them if they like them, and their eyes glaze over. I don't believe they were hiding an innate desire to wear makeup and jewelry - their lack of interest was complete.

I really believe that the majority of straight men are genuinely not interested in such things and that this is a matter of mostly inborn gender preferences. I grew up in an era which was much less consumerist, didn't have a TV until I was well into my teens - and I just remember loving girly things as far back as I can remember, and I really don't think that I was "sold" on anything. My parents didn't shove it at me. I saw my mother, I saw my father, and I just knew that I would much prefer to wear a dress than a suit and tie, from being very young. Somehow, I knew I would look really silly in the latter, but that the former would flatter my shape when I became a grown-up.

We accept that animals display different decorations and mating behavior according to gender. Male peacocks have their plumage tails which they wave around to the female peacocks, and you don't see female peacocks trying to steal the men's colorful tail feathers and hold them in their beaks and wave them around at their opposites in order to be like the male peacocks. We also don't try to make all the peacocks all the same. Why is the idea of men and women being innately different in some preferences so hard to accept, when we accept it in the animal kingdom? We are animals too.

And what about all the anecdotal parental evidence of those parents who have both boys and girls?

Also, if we have no inborn preferences but it's all society-based, why do some transgender people feel so very strongly that they are the opposite sex to the one they were born? Many of them report feeling this way since being extremely young - identifying with female gender or male gender, strongly. If gender is all about society, what does that say about the strong feelings of transgender people that they have been born in the wrong body?

I know we haven't yet unraveled all the mysteries of why the genders behave they way they do, and I do believe that some of it is society-based, yes, but I believe much of it is inborn. FWIW, I would have no problem whatsoever with men wearing makeup. I think many of them would look really good with some flattering makeup. I'm not sure that jewelry flatters the somewhat large, muscly male frame as well as the smaller female one, but hey, if men want to wear jewelry then they should, and it should be celebrated.

JMO.