Handeling a problematic fiance, you ladies on ｍｙ side?

[princesss]

Oh boy, WHFSR, this is a doozy of a situation, isn''t it?

I actually hear two very different problems in your post. I could be wrong, but it seems like a big part of this frustration with your fiance may actually be frustration with Japanese culture. All expats hit that point where you just want something, just one thing to be done the way you grew up having things done. Add the emotions involved in ring buying, proposing, and finally being engaged and I think that everything got all mixed in together and exploded. I completely understand you being frustrated.

That said, I think this is a "When in Rome" scenario. It''s hard, and it''s frustrating, but unfortunately I think it needs to be done. I think it''s reasonable to expect her to wear her ring to work when you are back in the US, but I think that you need to understand that, as MyTwoCents pointed out, this could cause serious problems in the workplace for her. Would you want her to be made to feel ashamed of her ring? Or when she wears it, do you want her to feel proud and happy to show it off?

 

[crystalheart1]

I think you need to step back and read your post again.... and then see how it sounds to a "third party" I have gotten an uneasy feeling before from some of your past statements and got this "funny feeling".. I don''t want to be too harsh so I won''t say anything else. I hope I am wrong about the way you are coming off...

 

[crystalheart1]

I also thought the comment about being 40-50 and not having to buy an engagement ring was offensive to those who are

 

[Haven]

Hmmmm, the following sentence came to mind as I read your topic, WHFSM:

The biggest mistake people make in a relationship is thinking they can assert their will onto their partner.

I''m not going to belabor the wonderful points that have already been made, except to say that I''m sorry you are feeling so down after giving this gorgeous ring to your fiancee, but perhaps you should revisit your reasons for giving it to her in the first place.

Best of luck to you and your future wife.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Just for the heck of it, I thought I''d post this excellent article on care of rings and when not to wear them. This is aside from the cultural issue:

http://crossjewelers.com/learn/wcg.htm

 

[gwendolyn]

I''m a musician (percussionist) and I can''t wear rings, watches or bracelets because they get in the way, so I either keep them in my pockets (if it''s going to be for just a short time that I need to play), or wear them on a reliable chain around my neck. Not sure I''d want to risk this with an engagement ring unless it was a very good chain with an excellent clasp, but it sounds like it might be a compromise if you found the right kind of chain.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 8/11/2007 11:17:59 AM
Author: Mytwocents
Hi I'm normally more of a lurker but reading this post I felt that I had to reply to you. I am Japanese, lived in the States for more than 20 years now but go back to Japan often and have family and friends there. I work in a Japanese company as well and even here in the US, the japanese ladies don't wear their full engagement and wedding ring set.


Receiving an engagement ring is customary yes, even for those over 40/50 years old, however it is not worn at work. Ever. They may be worn at parties or going out shopping on weekends which your fiancé seems to be doing. You seem to simplify the issue and say I expect her to wear it and it is unacceptable and that is all there is to it...I don't think it is that simple and straightforward. Forgive me but your post makes me wonder how well you know Japanese culture and how you view your fiancée.


I don't like to stereotype Japanese culture but there are certain rules (unspoken ones) that are followed and following the unspoken rules of conduct is very important whether it is on the train, in stores or most importantly at the workplace. Unless your fiancée works in a multi-national or international company where the culture is more 'Western' or 'American' it would not be acceptable for her to wear her ring at work. Don't ask me why, perhaps it is considered flashy (if she deals wtih customers, discretion is very important). Go to a department store and look around you will not see one lady wearing flashy jewellery nor an engagement diamond. You might see a plain wedding band. She could, as you in my opinion arrogantly state, conform to your views on this and you could make her feel so guilty and ask her to wear it, but then she would be doing something out of the norm for Japanese society. She would stand out from her colleagues. Her colleagues whether out of jealousy or feeling that she is 'acting Western just because she has an american fiancé' may insult her, bully her. Please do not think I am exaggerating. Bullying is very much part of the workplace there, small jabs, little insults that may ruin her workplace relationships. I truly believe that you would not want that for her, I am sure she is touched and very happy about the time and effort you put into choosing a very special ring for her but she is the one that knows the culture, she is the one that can identify any potential consequences of wearing that ring at work. If she has explained to you that she cannot wear it at work, rather than take it that she does not appreciate your gesture or deem it 'unacceptable' I think you should be understanding for her sake. She might already get slack at work for having a non-Japanese boyfriend, she might be trying very hard to continue to fit in with her colleagues, there might be other things that has nothing to do with her not appreciating your engagement ring.


I am not sure how feasible wearing the ring as a necklace would be either, unless she keeps it tucked under her shirt/blouse. A ring on a necklace would also be frowned upon at the workplace.


I just want to say again that this is if her workplace is a traditonal japanese company with a japanese clientele and you said she was working with suits, thus her clientele would be traditional conservative businessmen? who would be quick to notice any deviation from the norm. I hope you two can work it out.

Exactly and thank you for posting! It is HARD ENOUGH for a working woman in Japan without having to deviate, IN ANY WAY, from her boss's expectations. The workplace culture there is totally different, there was just an article in the New York Times about women in the Japanese workplace.


Living in Morocco I have several friends in cross-cultural relationships and I know just how hard it can be. Just sit tight until she gets to America! Ring-wearing city, no problemo, it'll be great.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 8/11/2007 1:51:16 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
oh they have rings for engagements....thats not the issue. I was def. expected to buy one, especially with those her age (if she were 40-50 I might be able to get away with not diong it, but def not at 25) though its quite a bit larger than I needed to get which is fine with me. Its just that they dont really wear them....

for instance, I have a chinese friend who recently got married. though her husband has completed his Doctorates in America he was unable to get a job in South carolina due to the timing of his graduation in correspondence with applications to live in america. thus he is living her illegally making 4-5 dollars an hour under the table and cant work full time, yet she still made him go to tif. and buy her a 2,500 dollar Ering that she went on to say was too small and she cant keep it, but she has to have one for now. What does she do with it? she leaves it in her closet! she hasnt worn it a single day!

anyway, my fiance wears it when she gets out of work and at home and she will wear it when she is shopping, etc, but not when she is working, which is the bulk of her time in life these days.

While one part of me understands it, the fact is I wont accept it at this point. Not 4 days after the proposal anyway. so its just a matter of trying to figure out how to talk about it without causing a fight, which I am afraid is going to be impossible.

Also in the future we will live in America but thats a good year to year and half, where I am positive she will wear it all the time. It probably shouldnt be as big a deal as I am making it out to be, but it is to me. so we will see what happens...but I nobody here to talk to so instead of going out to continue hunting for a jeweler familiar with palladium, as I had intended　（I cam across an Indian jeweler a while back and I remember he had a good bit of bench material in the back, so I am hoping he can do it), I paid for the media cafe so I could post here, since im a little angry

I cannot understand the relevance of your example. Engagement rings are not a chinese tradition/custom and I understand it is not a tradition/custom in many Asian countries. Engagement rings and proposals, like Valentine''s day is something that is now socially accepted due to influence from west from years ago. It is your friend''s choice to leave her ring in the closet, not a chinese tradition.

I cannot help but think that you have come across as domineering in your relationship with your fiancee and is judgemental towards her culture/tradition/norms. Perhaps you should spend some time living there to understand her tradition better, because it seems that she does respect and intend to uphold her tradition/values, which should in turn deserve your respect. From what I am hearing, you have given her a lot of pressure to wear the ring at work and is refusing to accept and understand her point of view. If you choose to fight with her over this, I certainly do hope that she has the strength to tell you that her decision not to wear the ring at work is final otherwise you can have it back.

 

[ChargerGrrl]

whfsr- I truly do like reading your posts. you''re clearly very passionate about everything you do.

however, this post is so sad. The title alone really turns me off. I wonder how your FI would feel if she knew that you were seeking advice on how to HANDLE her PROBLEMATIC self?

Please take a step back and try to be objectionable!

 

[Dogmom]

Date: 8/11/2007 7:36:05 PM
Author: ChargerGrrl

Please take a step back and try to be objectionable!

LOL - do you mean objective?

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 8/11/2007 7:36:05 PM
Author: ChargerGrrl
Please take a step back and try to be objectionable!

I think he has *objectionable* covered!

Being *objective*, on the otherhand ... seems as foreign as the land he's visiting.

 

[ChargerGrrl]

Date: 8/11/2007 7:45:17 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 8/11/2007 7:36:05 PM
Author: ChargerGrrl
Please take a step back and try to be objectionable!

I think he has *objectionable* covered!

Being *objective*, on the otherhand ... seems as foreign as the land he''s visiting.

hehe- thanks for catching that, gals! I''m only on my first glass of wine for the eve.

and yep, you know what I really meant to type.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 8/11/2007 7:45:17 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 8/11/2007 7:36:05 PM
Author: ChargerGrrl
Please take a step back and try to be objectionable!

I think he has *objectionable* covered!

Being *objective*, on the otherhand ... seems as foreign as the land he''s visiting.

ROFL

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 8/11/2007 7:51:07 PM
Author: ChargerGrrl
hehe- thanks for catching that, gals! I''m only on my first glass of wine for the eve.

mmmmm Wine! (And I knew it was just a typo -- you''re a sharp cookie. Freudian slip, perhaps?

)

 

[asscherisme]

I think you need to back off her and respect her following what she feels comfortable with.

Many have made some great points about workplace safety, culture, etc so I won''t repeat those.

However, the tone of your first post really really bothered me. And I have to say that if I were your fiancee, and you pushed the issue with me and used the words that you used in your post here, I would not be your fiancee much longer.

I have been married almost 13 years, and have 4 kids and I can tell you that marriage is about compromise and engagement is about a time to get use to that idea and learn about how to communicate for marriage.

Your issues about insisting she wear it whether she wants to or not and not caring about her comfort level or her culture and putting your needs first. Wow, that just blew me away. Had my husband acted like that engaged, I can honestly say he would not be my husband.

She wears the ring when she is not working and she has promised to wear it all the time in the US. So if you want to test her, push her but be prepared for not being engaged much longer.

I think people on this board get so caught up in the ring. A ring is a symbol. You gave it to her, she loves it and wears it when its comfortable. Be happy she likes it.

But your demands come across as being very very dominating and demanding and something that would scare the heck out of me if I were engaged to you.

I wish you luck and hope you cool down.

And I agree with others, the title of this thread is demeaning to her. Is she really the problematic fiancee, or are YOU?

 

[door knob solitaire]

I just reread this post. And realized this girl...works 13 hour shifts 9am to 10pm!!!. How many hours does she sleep? Lets say 6. An hour before work to prepare...that leaves 4 hours. Lets add commute to and from...at least 30 minutes each way... SO now we have 3 hours remaining. She has only 3 hours to call her own!!

Wow she is SUPER WOMAN~~!!

DKS

 

[Sha]

I agree that your tone comes across as domineering and dogmatic. That was the first thing that struck me from reading your post. Even if you say you don''t talk like this to your fiance, the fact that it comes across so strongly in your post shows that you feel/think that way on some level, IMO.

It seems to be more about what you want, and trying to get your fiancee to ''conform'', rather than trying to understand her situation. The statement you made about finding it hard to imagine that her cultural pressures could be more powerful than your feelings is a bit naive and very ''Western'', in my opinion. YOU are only one person. CULTURE is all around her - family, friends, co-workers, customers etc. Her culture is a MUCH stronger pressure. If she wears her ring she may be pleasing you (One person) but at the same time displeasing a lot of people around her. It may be hard for Westerners to understand that, because our culture is an individualistic one- we tend to think that it''s all about the individual and it doesn''t matter what anybody else thinks etc. etc. - But in her culture,- other people - community/society/family etc are extremely important. and since she is living in that society, you should understand and respect that. The good thing is that it''s not going to be forever!

I think that Twocents provided an excellent cultural perspective. Hopefully it sheds some light on your fiancee''s situation.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 8/12/2007 12:22:06 AM
Author: door knob solitaire
I just reread this post. And realized this girl...works 13 hour shifts 9am to 10pm!!!. How many hours does she sleep? Lets say 6. An hour before work to prepare...that leaves 4 hours. Lets add commute to and from...at least 30 minutes each way... SO now we have 3 hours remaining. She has only 3 hours to call her own!!

Wow she is SUPER WOMAN~~!!

DKS

Hi DKS, I work for a US Investment Bank with global presence and I do have colleagues in Tokyo. Let''s just say that even though we preach work life balance, it does not seemed to be practised there. Yes, that''s the kind of hours they work and they don''t leave before the boss!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

alright, well, those were some hard post to read, I had to skim through a couple and will get back to them later, as most of them sang the same song. And, I totally agree with all of you. Believe me, the last thing I am is domineering or controlling, I am very understanding and always focused on her desires, I believe that my job is to sacrifice myself for my girlfriend/fiance/wife, and I trust she will do the same for me. I believe that if we both sacrifice for each other and both look out for the happiness and care of one another, while still loving ourselves and caring for ourselves of course, but just not at the sacrifice of the other, then we will both be as happy as we can possibly be. The only times in which I might be domineering would be in cases where she were hurting her own life, happiness, or the happiness of the family. for instance, if she wanted to work this many hours after we get married (which she doesn't of course) I would have to "take control" of the situation and refuse to allow it, but at the same time if I were working as many hours as she is now, after we get married, I would expect HER to step up and "take control" of the situation, become domineering in that aspect for my sake and the sake of our family. So in regards to a ring, no of course i am not going to go about "telling" her what she has to do, but I was really pissed off and just wanted to vent and get it all out, and the look at the situation a little more calmly..and well, I don't have any English speaking friends here in Japan other than her to talk with...so I got on the diamond forum.

That being said, she mentioned this problem after I first proposed, I told her it would mean a lot to me for her to wear it while she was working and she agreed to do it with out much of a fight or argument. Consequently, here I was doing nothing for over an hour waiting to eat lunch with her, we eat lunch, and then she tells me that she isn't wearing it at work, which I had just assumed she was doing because she said she would. So I was really mad, partly because she lied to me about it, and partly because she wasn't wearing it. Thus, I changed my plans and got online specifically because I was angry and disappointed--thus, I came across very cruel, mean, and domineering in my post.

But don't forget, I did not say anything to her (all though I was very quite which I think was deserving for the sake of her lying to me about it), I didn't get onto her or get "heavy" or do anything that I needed to "back down" from, though If I had treated her with the same attitude as I had displayed in my original post I would be grateful for the rebukes. So, its not as though I put a tremendous pressure on her or anything and need to give her some space now, I was well aware that my response was cruel, harsh, inconsiderate, and domineering, but that I was too angry and irritated and disappointed to change my attitude at that moment. Thus I came online to post to all of you in hopes of getting some feedback (which I certainly got! lol, thanks for that), to help me calm down, and come up with some ideas to work on the situation, however it might end up. And yes I said I wouldn't take the advice, but that was...well, a lie..., and in truth I will take the advice and use it to help me understand if things don't go according to my plans, though I will still execute my plan which I will discuss in a moment, so critique that all you like

To clarify one issue, she works at a retail company. She used to sale suits there, but she has recently been set as the all time woman's clothes Sales rep. None of the clothes are silk though just regular somewhat overpriced regular women's cloths, she sometimes works at the cash register, and she helps with foreigners as the best English speaker at the location.

Also, thank you for the person from the Japanese background, I do know a great deal about Japanese culture and expectations, which I won't go into right now as I don't suppose this is the place. But there are a lot of things that I love, and some things that I don't like as much, as with all things, pluses and minuses. Overall I feel that there are many more pluses than minuses in relationships and expectations here, so I do enjoy it.
However, I have also been through some experiences directly related to those specific comments you made. When we were first dating she would not let me pick her up at her store and she didn't tell anyone that she was working with that she had an American boyfriend. She wouldn't hold my hand in the mall where she works and it took about 1 year before they started finding out. During that time I was VERY angry about it and it nearly caused us to break up. She explained to me that it wasn't that she was embarrassed of me, but, rather, like you said, that the co-workers there might pick on her and make fun of her. Her mom talked about it with us and defended her position, which made me even angrier, but I accepted it. It was VERY much against my own beliefs and expectations, but I accepted it. Now everybody knows me at her work, I have went out to eat with them and pick her up everyday and wave to them, so it has all worked out, but I have def had that perspective explained to me before, and of course, the last thing I want is to interfere with her working environment. whoever it was that crunched the numbers on her work situation had it just about right. only she actually leaves at 830 for a 45min-1hour commute and doesn't get home until 1045-11. So you are right, that is a much more serious situation, but one in which I, at the moment can do nothing to help with, however straining it is for her happiness (and hence the willingness to spend 1300 dollars on a ticket to the USA for a 4 day vacation)

Also, before I get into my other post, I wanted to clarify the age comment I made. When I said if she were 40 or 50 it was not the age that was important but social expectations that they might hold. Obviously, Japan has not offered diamond engagement rings forever. It is a relatively recent occurrence in terms of Japanese history, I believe, and I understand it to be very closely related to the westernization of Japan that began occurring after WW2. Thus, the older the person, i assume, the more likely that they would adhere to less of the western practices, and the less likely that they would expect a diamond engagment ring. But, the younger the person the more closely related they are likely to be to western practices and, in addition to that, to diamond Engagement ring practices.

Thus, faulty or not, I do want to explain that my comment was not directed toward the age and I was CERTAINLY NOT saying that young women in their 40's and 50's don't need diamond rings, but that I believe that, in some countries, this one being one, the numbers of people who would expect/desire a Diamond Ering would increase as age decreased--simply because of change in customs and pracitices, and not because of age in and of itself.

Now, as to my plans for handling this situation, I will move on to a separate post as this one is lengthy enough already

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

My goal: for her to look down at her ring through out the day and think several thoughts.
One: wow, that is beautiful look at it flashing and sparkling, I love it so much.
Two: I love my fiance and he picked out such a beautiful diamond.
Three: I am engaged, hooray!

Where I am:
She wears it to work and looks at it, she wears it after work and enjoys it and wears it when we go home, before and after her shower. Outside of work, my goal is met.

now, how will I reach my entire goal. Perhaps I won't be able to in the way I wanted, and that is ok. You have all put out excellent positions for why I should leave it be, and I respect those. Nonthless, I have been contemplating the problem. When I was quite during our lunch she got really mean and yelled at me, because I was quite. I just hugged her and said I will see her after work, and she went back to work. Then I got online and posted.

During that posting I realized, if I just have a conversation with her and try to communicate my feelings with her, there is absolutely no way that I can reach my goal. having this particular conversation with her simply could not create a thought process or change feelings, it could only change actions. So, that is out the window for now. She called me to apologize, and she said she thought I was angry because I wasn't wearing the ring and she got mad at me, so she was mean. I told her not to worry about it, I am not angry (yes I lied, this was while I was posting) but that I was a little disappointed, but don't worry about it and we can talk about it later, but not to worry about it today (that being yesterday).

So, I decided that while a direct conversation might be useful in the future, at the moment I need to work on her feelings thus, my plan is to make innocent sweet comments, intending to enhance the symbolism of the ring and to emphasize its beauty. I figure that if I can make half-related comments that emphasize the symbolism of the ring, my love for it and my desire for her to associate it with myself, all while emphasizing the beauty of the diamonds light performance in relation to the beauty of our love, then it might be possible to set up an environment where her feelings become strong enough that her desire to wear it challenges her desire to conform to social norms. However, if people were picking on her or it were to be a danger to the clothes at work--which I don't believe to be the case--then the desire to leave it in the locker would outweigh her desire to wear it, and I wouldn't have caused any damage.


So, how things have gone so far. well, there hasn't been much time. Pretty much the only opportunity I have had was this morning on the way to work. She looked at the diamond in some sunlight and said it was really beautiful and everybody at work told her it was really gorgeous. (fortunately when we went to try to get it resized one of the jewelers said "woooow, this diamond is 'perfect'. It is an EX EX EX isn't it." (yes, he used whatever the Japanese word for perfect is, I have forgotten it now) So then that gave me the opportunity to take advantage of my unique AGS report and show how all 11 properties of the cut grade came back as 0-ideal to the 5th decimal place. So yes it is "perfect"

(yes, I used the English word perfect) I also got to show her the hearts image then and she was really surprised that her diamond was a "hearts and cupids" type, so that was fun. She was really surprised when I told her that image was of her diamond from the pavilion side)

Anyway, she was commenting on that, and I said something along the lines of, "yes, I studied a long time to get you a beautiful ring!, you know why I did that right? Not because of the ring and diamond itself, but because this ring," and I held her hand and touched her left hand ring finger, "represents us being engaged. I love you" and here I kissed her cheek "and so I wanted to get you a diamond that when you look at it during the day can remind you of how beautiful our feelings are for each other. I wanted to make sure that every time you look at this diamond and ring, you can remember us and remember how happy we are and will be together." Then I kissed her hand and changed topics, before it got into the wearing it at work discussion again. Lol, anyway, it was really fun at least. And she would def kill me if she found out I was posting this online!

So thats my plan. To "milk" every opportunity to attempt to mold her feelings and affection for the ring and the act of earing an Ering to such a state that, in a week or two weeks I can re-express my desire for her to wear it all day and, perhaps, at that time, without putting any pressure on her to oblige but simply expressing that I would like her to, then she might do it of her own accord and desires.

Then if that doesn't work, I will be finished, as its actually extremelly silly to tell the truth

but I will carry out the plan anyway

so, if you have any thoughts on that, other than it being extremely silly for me to take it to this level of thought and concern (especially for such a small diamond, maybe if it was a 4ct it would make sense), let me know. (and now I am going to post a "rodent" face, because I love it)

Thanks for all of your responses, despite being rather hard hitting

hopefully you won't think too poorly of me

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Oh and i forgot to say! I titled this thread rather inappropriately, but I actually. It was actually a play on another thread, at the time when I posted this the thread at the top of the "hangout" page was titled: "Handling and indecisive boss" and so I thought it would be fun to make a play on that title and felt that "handling a problematic" worked well with "handling an indecisive" I neither consider myself as "handling" her, although I am going to try to mold her feelings to reach my goal

nor do I think of her as "problematic" in the sense that it came off in the title, but only that we were having a problem. I simply felt that that title made a nice play on the proceeding post and so I named it that, sorry

it wasn''t meant quite the way it sounded.

 

[monarch64]

WHfSR, I''m glad you posted again and clarified your feelings about all of this. I''m also really glad you felt comfortable coming here to PS and voicing your concerns and frustrations, that''s part of what is so nice about this community, everyone listens and gives input when you have a diamond related issue or a personal one.

It sounds like you''ve taken some time to think things over and are open to some sort of compromise on the whole situation, which is great. I think you guys are both young and a little headstrong (just sounds that way, not necessarily a negative thing either), and you just need to work on communication--BOTH of you! Your latest plan of putting a more positive spin on how you feel about her wearing the ring and why is probably going to be more productive. BUT, in the event that she is not willing to completely "give in," for lack of a better term (it''s late here, I should be sleeping!), I hope you can think ahead and figure out how you will deal with that. You may just have to agree to disagree about this...it seems like you both feel strongly about your separate points of view on the issue of whether she wears the ring at work.

I sincerely hope everything works out for you both. You''ve been through a lot already with the distance, and the whole cultural barrier regarding when she didn''t feel comfortable introducing you to her co-workers, etc. I think if you''ve gotten through that and are still so in love, you can definitely get through this, but just realize that even if you get her to wear the ring to work, you might not really have "won" this battle...like you mentioned in one of your first posts on the thread, you don''t want her to end up resenting you or the ring because she feels like she''s been forced to wear it to work.

Best of luck!!!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

well, I mentioned it in the above posts, but they were awfully long. so, yes, if this plan doesn't work out I won't press it any further. And I won't do anything to make her feel obliged, but just try to portray my feelings and hopefully that will, if done properly, cause her to feel similarly. I also appreciate why she feels as she does and if this plan doesn't work, then I won't feel bad about it and I won't do anything to cause her feelings to take a negative spin. so basically, I have already decided to bow out

in any direct manner, except perhaps one more conversation in the future, and if her feelings never change in that regard I will just leave it in her hands.

But another thought

This is independent of the real purpose of my thread, but what if she were going to a bar for some reason, or somewhere that guys would be likely to hit on her or some such situation (though she doesn't do things like that, apart from casual drinking parties at restaurants with friends and such, as is very popular here).

I would def want her to wear her Ering/future band if she were headed somewhere that another male might be making advances on her--would you, as wives, be understanding of that position if for some reason she didn't want to, or angered that I would presume to make a "demand" (though I wouldn't use that word) such as that of you?

 

[monarch64]

Sorry, I tried to absorb as much of those posts as I could, lol! I guess I missed that part!

On the new question, I think most ladies would agree that when we''re out for drinks without our man, we WANT to avoid being hit on and typically wear our rings. I don''t know what reason your FI would give for not wanting to wear hers to a bar/restaurant, and I don''t think it''s unreasonable of you to expect that when she''s out without you she should wear her ring for the purpose of letting men know she''s "taken." Although I do have to point out that some men can be rude enough to not care about a ring...anyway that is beside the point here. If I were you, I would just approach that sort of thing positively and tell her that you really would hope she''d wear her ring because you''re concerned that she''s so beautiful that guys will want to hit on her if they think she''s single and you don''t want her to have to deal with unwanted attention while she''s trying to have a good time with her friends. Hee hee. And also just be honest with her, without being demanding. Then there''s always the argument of what if you went out without her after you''re married and you don''t wear your wedding band--how would she feel about that? Etc., etc.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

No, I wouldn''t be in the least bit understanding of that position at all. The more demands of that nature that someone put on me, the less likely we would be to stay married, frankly. People hit on other people in social situations, it happens. Wedding rings or not. The important thing is the response they get.

Sorry, this thread is really getting to me, so I''ll butt out. I don''t understand where you''re coming from at all.

Jen

 

[Independent Gal]

Errrr... I would be upset if my soon-to-be-husband took his wedding band off deliberately, RIGHT before he went out to a bar. I confess! I know it''s not a guarantee ladies won''t hit on him, but him actually taking it off looks like he''s trying to send a clear message while he''s in the bar... know what I mean? But that''s just me.

 

[neatfreak]

I'm also happy that you came back and clarified your posts. But honestly, I am still worried that you are convinced that you can manipulate (and yes, no matter how subtle, that is what you are doing) her into going against her cultural norms to please YOU.

I don't think it's right. She should make her own decisions regarding when to wear the ring and when not to wear the ring without any input from you. Japanese culture is a whole other ballgame and needing to conform to societal norms is something Americans can't usually comprehend. And as for the bar example, it depends if she deliberately takes it off before going into these situations, or whether she forgets to put it on if that makes sense. But really? Don't worry about it as long as she is happy to be engaged to YOU and isn't hitting on other men!


So what I suggest is this. JUST DROP IT. Enjoy being together. She KNOWS that it is important to you for her to wear it outside of work and it sounds like she is. So just pretend in your mind that no ring is a part of her uniform for work, and LET IT GO. If I thought my FI was trying to manipulate me into doing something he wanted that went against MY cultural norms and beliefs, I don't think he would be my fiance for too long...be careful.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

I take your point, Indy, especially if it was right outside a bar!

DH doesn't wear a ring anyway, since it got mangled (along with his poor finger) in a stand off with a door handle in our house. From how horrible that injury was, I don't wear rings very often either now! We're still married though - the whole emotional, physical, psychological and lifetime bond.

I hate the notion of a ring being a sign that someone's 'taken.' I'm not taken, I'm one party to a marriage. Maybe I'm just being difficult, if so please ignore me!

I think that the posts WHFSR uses to clarify actually worry me more than the original. Sorry - I said I'd butt out and I really should, because there's something disturbing to me in the way he talks of his FI.

Sorry - really going to shut up now!

Jen

 

[Independent Gal]

And ditto what neatfreak says. It''s always a better idea to say what you mean than to try to manipulate someone. You guys have years of misunderstandings and hurt feelings ahead of you otherwise. You''re right that it''s important for her to understand how you feel about it, but that doesn''t have to be subtle or manipulative.

Just say flat out: ''To me the ring symbolizes our love and commitment. So, it makes me feel sad that you can''t wear your ring at work to show off that commitment to everyone. But I understand that in your culture wearing it to work could get you into trouble. So I just want you to know that whenever you CAN wear it, it will make me happy to see it on your hand.''

And then let it drop. That way, she knows what''s bothering you (and believe me, it drives people CRAZY when they get the silent treatment instead of a ''here''s what''s bothering me'') and she can then be the judge of what to do.

In a marriage its good to express how you feel and how things make you feel. And it''s good for the other person to hear and understand. But you''ll end up in an angry deadlock if one or both of you tries to manipulate or ''impose your will'' on the other.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/12/2007 9:08:11 AM
Author: Mrs Mitchell

I think that the posts WHFSR uses to clarify actually worry me more than the original.


Jen

I thought the same thing.