Handeling a problematic fiance, you ladies on ｍｙ side?

[partgypsy]

I wasn''t going to respond to this post, but reading Working hard for small rewards last couple posts. I followed your search for the perfect ring for your fiance, and I could tell there was alot of thought and love put into it. You bought it to propose to her and show that you loved her and even sacrifice for her. You picked a ring that was beautiful and approved of in both yours and her culture. You did what you wanted to accomplish. Please don''t ruin that feeling by trying to force or manipulate her to wear the ring during times she is not comfortable/it is not appropriate to her culture to wear it. I''m not sure if you are aware of this but engagement rings in Japanese culture is still a relatively new thing. I have heard in many cases though it is becoming more expected to present a ring, that ring is only worn a handful of times during certain occasions and then locked up. She is working long hours, making a sacrifice I can only assume to make a better happier life when you are a married couple. She also says she is wearing it when off work. She has also said that when you both move to the states in a year and a half she will wear the ring on a regular basis. I really don''t think you should expect more of her. During the limited time you spend with her before you get married I''m sure there are much more important topics you can discuss than how often she wears her ring.

 

[anchor31]

Here''s the other side of the coin: Like you, my FI worked his butt off to give me my beautiful ring. It''s not very big, but I adore it and I adore being engaged to my FI, and I wish I could wear my ring every second of every day. But the reality is that I can''t.

In May and June, I worked for 8 weeks on an environmental project in agricultural fields. I was outside, in rough weather at time, in sand and mud and rain, planting trees and the like. I did not, for these entire 8 weeks, wear my ring at all. It stayed home. For my second summer job, which I started in late June, I do environmental public education. About one day a week, we go out and do a public service thing and pick up litter or pull ragweed in parks or other public areas, or give ecological gardening classes in public gardens. On those days, my ring stays home.

It''s not because I don''t love it, or don''t want to wear it, or I don''t love my FI, or I''m not happy to be engaged, or I don''t want to show the world that I am. It''s because I don''t want to do any damage to it. Because my FI worked his butt off to give it to me, and because I adore it, I don''t want any harm to come to it. I baby it. It comes off before I go to bed and doesn''t come on until I''m showered and dressed in the morning. I don''t wear it cooking or cleaning or exercising. Sometimes, I forget (gasp!) to put it on. I don''t want to damage my ring, but I also don''t want to hurt myself doing my job.

Is my FI upset? Nope. He understands the importance of keeping my ring, and my hand, safe in rougher conditions. He will most likely have to not wear it to work on occasion as well. Heck, he''ll probably be the kind of guy who takes it off right when he gets homes and not put it on again until he goes out.

WHFSR, please try to be more flexible and understanding. As much as you wish she would, your FI will not always do want you want, just like you probably don''t always do want she wishes you would. I''m sure she loves you and loves the ring you gave her. She''s not rejecting you or ignoring you. She''s protecting herself, her ring and the materials she works with. That should be respected. Give her a little slack, will ya?

 

[chiefneil]

Boy, if anybody actually says what they''re truly thinking, the pricescope admin will be shutting this thread down post-haste. For the OP, the most diplomatic thing I can think of to say is drop the plan and consider professional counseling.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 8/12/2007 11:17:17 AM
Author: chiefneil
Boy, if anybody actually says what they''re truly thinking, the pricescope admin will be shutting this thread down post-haste. For the OP, the most diplomatic thing I can think of to say is drop the plan and consider professional counseling.

I''ll take my chances since the more WHFSR posts the angrier I get.

Uptight, Anal and Control Issues all come to mind.

But aside from that, most of us have some of these traits in varying degrees. The trick is to understand them and work around them in our daily lives.
Working hard hasn''t mastered it yet.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 8/12/2007 2:34:09 AM
Author: monarch64
WHfSR, I'm glad you posted again and clarified your feelings about all of this. I'm also really glad you felt comfortable coming here to PS and voicing your concerns and frustrations, that's part of what is so nice about this community, everyone listens and gives input when you have a diamond related issue or a personal one.

It sounds like you've taken some time to think things over and are open to some sort of compromise on the whole situation, which is great. I think you guys are both young and a little headstrong (just sounds that way, not necessarily a negative thing either), and you just need to work on communication--BOTH of you! Your latest plan of putting a more positive spin on how you feel about her wearing the ring and why is probably going to be more productive. BUT, in the event that she is not willing to completely 'give in,' for lack of a better term (it's late here, I should be sleeping!), I hope you can think ahead and figure out how you will deal with that. You may just have to agree to disagree about this...it seems like you both feel strongly about your separate points of view on the issue of whether she wears the ring at work.

I sincerely hope everything works out for you both. You've been through a lot already with the distance, and the whole cultural barrier regarding when she didn't feel comfortable introducing you to her co-workers, etc. I think if you've gotten through that and are still so in love, you can definitely get through this, but just realize that even if you get her to wear the ring to work, you might not really have 'won' this battle...like you mentioned in one of your first posts on the thread, you don't want her to end up resenting you or the ring because she feels like she's been forced to wear it to work.

Best of luck!!!

Ditto what Monnie says after reading your last posts on page 2.

 

[Independent Gal]

Yes. Thritto. And no reason for name calling. None of us is perfect and name calling never helped anyone become better.

 

[Pandora II]

I think sometimes we all read too much into things that can be written in the heat of the moment. I know I sometimes come and vent here when I don''t want my worst, bratty, nasty side to actually come out in real life - we all have one, it''s how we control it that makes the difference.

I think it''s great that Whfsr comes and posts here and doesn''t just bottle it all up. We should be applauding that and hoping that more people will open up. Not just jumping down people''s throats and possibly putting people off who really need some help.

Just wanted to add a point on the ''manipulation'' comments above. It''s a bit rich to say that when over on LIW we all conspire together to basically manipulate a man into proposing. All depends on how you define manipulation...

Having lived in another country and dated men from there, I can appreciate just how you can feel when you come up against a cultural norm that makes you want to beat your head against a brickwall! Sadly you just have to relax and accept!

I would really suggest getting a nice chain for your FI to wear the ring under her clothes - much safer than a locker. (Oh, and I sew a lot and always take my e-ring off. Thread and prongs DO NOT mix!)

 

[elle_chris]

I read his last posts on page 2 and I still feel the same.

The words "My goal: for her to look down at her ring through out the day and think several thoughts. "


"So thats my plan. To "milk" every opportunity to attempt to mold her feelings and affection for the ring and the act of earing an Ering to such a state that, in a week or two weeks I can re-express my desire for her to wear it all day and, perhaps, at that time, without putting any pressure on her to oblige but simply expressing that I would like her to, then she might do it of her own accord and desires."

While I''m sure you''re sincere in your feelings- the way you go about it and the words you''ve chosen to express yourself with are just rubbing me the wrong way.
I do wish you the best of luck however.

 

[princesss]

WHFSR, before I say anything I just have to say that I''m SO HAPPY that you came here to vent instead of saying all this to your FI. I think waiting to approach her until you are/were calmer was a good idea, and I''m thrilled you felt comfortable enough to both come here and get through the responses without leaving.

I am a bit concerned about the degree to which you''re comfortable manipulating your FI, and got kind of a sick feeling in my stomach reading it just because it reminded me of a very very bad relationship I was in a few years ago.

I think that you''re hoping for too much when you expect that she''ll put your wants above all other cultural pressures in this. You can try your plan to do this in a "positive" way, but I don''t think you''ll succeed.

I think it was neatfreak(?) that posted the idea about saying "It disappoints me, this is why, but I understand it''s a cultural problem" and dropping it. Allow her to speak her piece, too, since she has strong feelings about this, too. Be open, have a good discussion, then just relax and be content that she loves wearing it away from work.

Best of luck!

 

[crystalheart1]

I get the impression WH has little experience dating and dealing with relationships. This cries of insecurity and fear that someone else is going to steal the girl away at a moments notice. Too much attention to needs here ( one sided ). I also agree that professional counseling would be a good option - before it is too late

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I do appreciate the new posts and it is obvious that you have calmed down some! I really like what IndependentGal said:

"Just say flat out: ''To me the ring symbolizes our love and commitment. So, it makes me feel sad that you can''t wear your ring at work to show off that commitment to everyone. But I understand that in your culture wearing it to work could get you into trouble. So I just want you to know that whenever you CAN wear it, it will make me happy to see it on your hand.'' "

And let it go. I can''t imagine that poor girl''s life having to work those kind of hours. No wonder the suicide rate is high in Japan. Just be understanding and live for the day that she can move here and be married.

You did choose a beautiful diamond and we all admire a guys who puts in that kind of effort. You wanted the very best for her and bought it. I am sure she treasures it, and not wearing it to work has zero to do with you or the ring. She''ll hopefully have this ring for the rest of her life. Just let this go for now and she can enjoy wearing the ring all the time once she is here.

Oh, and yes, I''d want to wear rings to bars for sure. I''d probably wear one even if I wasn''t taken because that is not exactly where I''d want to meet my future mate!

 

[scarleta]

Date: 8/11/2007 4:46:42 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/11/2007 3:24:59 AM

Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

well of course I wouldnt talk to her like that, thats why I didnt say anything to her yet and came to post here

Id hope not cuz you came across as a whiney little boy.

Get over it allready in the long run it matters not one little bit if she wears it at work for the next year and a half or not.

Well said...How about sell the ering , pay off the loan or take a vacation together and let her know you how you care for her and would buy her a ring of her choice whenever she is willing to wear it.
Good luck to you.My ring "relaxes" in its box whenever I don''t wear it , no problems whatsoever..

 

[decodelighted]

I'm a little skeeerd of what I might say ...so I'll try to review this a couple times before hitting submit.

Thanks for clarifying about the thread title (being a ref. to a previous thread of yours) and the "no rings for 40-50 year olds" comment (being about expectation not "worth as a bride") ... though I will remind you that 40 year olds grew up IN THE EIGHTIES, watching Dallas & MTV ... nowhere near WWII??? Moving on.

I truly hope that your ventings on here & your "plans of attack" are due to inexperience & not malice. And I third or fourth the recommendation of some professional counseling to help you explore new ways to relate & a more sophisticated arsenal of relationship tools.

The behavior you're describing is IMO "passive aggressive". Being "quiet" (I think you mean "quiet" and not "quite"??) ... withdrawing etc is punishing behavior. It might not be hitting her or calling her names but it is your way of punishing her for doing things you don't like. Manipulation is passive aggressive also ... trying to assert your will over her own without regard for her own well being. Because, see, even if you "win" & are successful "brainwashing" her into being so "in love" with the ring that she goes against her cultural & workplace norms to wear it ANYWAY (whether for your pleasure OR her pleasure) it will disturb her well being. It could cause jealousy, resentment, teasing, etc etc. When you say you place her needs above your own -- do you really? Is it really better for her to stand out in that crowd with her shiny diamond? Is it really in her best interests -- or your own? Don't be so short-sighted & selfish. Seriously.

How's THIS for a new goal: Find new ways to be the best future partner to your fiance. Use the same ace researcing skills you've used on your hunt for the perfect stone & perfect ring to read up on relationship dynamics & ways to fight fairly & the value of open, honest conversations & how to create a mutually loving, respectful union.

She may benefit from help too. Her "lie" to you -- when she TRIED to tell you she couldn't wear the ring to work but then "didn't put up a big fight" ... that's passive aggressive ALSO. She didn't want to fight about it so she shut you up by telling you what you wanted to hear, KNOWING she'd go & do what she wanted when you weren't looking. It's not the "lie" that would bother me -- it's the fact that she didn't feel comfortable enough talking to you about it & was afraid to "spoil the engagement" with any drama at that moment.

Are you sure you're in love with each other ... who you REALLY are ... or are you BOTH putting up fake, passive aggressive fronts??? When I see this kind of game playing & manipulation & avoidence of conflict etc I start to wonder.

 

[gwendolyn]

Did she really lie about going to wear the ring at work? It didn't sound like the conversation was all that in-depth, and I (personally) would react quite harshly to being called a liar by my fiance, especially if I'd tried to do what I said I would do and it didn't work out as I had anticipated. If she thought she knew what it was going to be like, said she'd do it and then found out it was a lot harder than she thought, I don't think that counts as lying, really.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 8/12/2007 2:50:08 PM
Author: gwendolyn
I (personally) would react quite harshly to being called a liar (snip) if I'd tried to do what I said I would do and it didn't work out as I had anticipated.

Gwendolyn, This is an issue for me, too. I resent it if someone equates lying about a past event with saying or "promising" to do something in the future then failing to keep his word. They are separate issues.

As you pointed out, there are many points across a wide spectrum that might be considered a "promise". Sometimes one or both people may agree to do something whimsically or casually and not feel bound by it. One of them may feel that it is, even at the moment of supposed "agreement", only pleasant fantasy. (Imagine two young people in the woods saying, "One day we'll get married under a leafy canopy like this.")

Sometimes they both take it as a solemn pledge. There is often a problem when one person takes the supposed agreement more seriously than the other other person.

When someone speaks of the future and then does not carry out a supposed "promise", the word "liar" seems to me (as to you) to be inappropriate, however.

As to the larger issue: WHFSR, I am having trouble empathizing with you and that is unusual for me. I am usually able to put myself in everyone else's place. I have read many comments from people who saw you work hard to find a ring to please your fiancée. I have read about how frustrating it is to be an expatriate in Japan. I do appreciate that you came here rather than complaining to your fiancée. (My husband would simply have told me what to do, so I immediately felt you deserved a bouquet of roses for that decision!)

The problem for me is, how can you fail to care that your fiancée, whom you profess to love, will be bullied at work if she does what you want? According to Mytwocents, the Japanese poster, and your fiancée that is what will happen if she does what you want. How could you want that to happen to her? I am the mother of a child who has been bullied. I want to protect her. I would never, deliberately, expose her to harm. I cannot understand how you could want to place your fiancée in harm's way.

Deborah

 

[icekid]

I have avoided responding to this thread til now as well, because I am just shocked and dumbfounded by your behavior, WHFSR.

You want your fiancee to be subjected to ridicule at work, just to satisfy your bizarre longings for her to wear a RING all day, everyday. what?!?!?! And you love this woman, right?

To be quite honest, I am worried for your fiance! Do you plan to put your feelings above hers for your entire lives?

I am going to be a surgeon, and of course you cannot wear rings when you are operating. If my husband tried TELLING ME that I had no other choice... I would tell him where to go. Of course, he would never dream of doing such a thing.

seriously messed up. Think about her.

 

[mrssalvo]

hmmm, well, I really do think it''s great how much effort and sentiment you have put into her ring but although they are very symbolic I just don''t get why you feel you need to create all this special magic around it and are trying to trick her into wearing it. I admit to not really being very sentimental when it comes to certain things. I still have my original wedding set but the diamond has been replaced. I''m in the process of getting a new ring and my hubby is actually wanting it to be more of a romantic gift type experience than I really care about. Anyway, yes you did a wonderful job choosing a ring for her and then gave it as a gift and promise to her. it is now HERS to do with as she wishes. She is already wearing it when she can, why can''t you just accept it and let her choose to wear it in her own time. I cannot imagine having to do something that was against my culture just for a man no matter what type of sentiment he tried to create or guilt trip he laid on me.

 

[AdaBeta27]

WHFSR, I am going to take the minority viewpoint here and side with you. I think she should been honest about not wearing the e-ring at work. Heck, she could have told you that before ya bought it and then maybe you'd have decided to wait until you were back in the States, and could more easily afford that purchase. I have little patience for people who are not forthright about things.

I say forget whatever was said/written here, and you your lady go for counseling now.

This whole scenario sounds so much like the ex-marriage of a friend of mine that it's spooky. He married an Oriental woman, when both were in their early 20s. From what he described to me, it was love at first sight for him but the whole marriage was just one big struggle of conflicting customs, expectations, and control of power. It ended up that the more he tried to be controlling, the more she rebelled or withdrew entirely, then the more he froze her out, etc. Vicious cycle of passive-aggressive behaviors by both. After several years of each trying to control or see just how badly he or she could hurt the other, the whole thing blew up when the woman finally left him for another man. 20 years later, my friend still has his wedding pics hanging on the wall and still mourns his failed marriage. Who was to blame there? I'd have to say both. Neither would compromise. He calls her "The Inscrutable Oriental," and I'd tend to agree with that. She kind of made it policy to tell him little or tell him just what he wanted to hear. We observers likened it that scene from The Godfather: "Never tell your enemies what's on your mind." I really don't think either of them started out to manipulate the other. I think both just had a definite roadmap of how a life should be lived, and those roadmaps were too different.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 8/12/2007 5:14:08 PM
Author: AdaBeta27

This whole scenario sounds so much like the ex-marriage of a friend of mine that it's spooky. He married an Oriental woman, when both were in their early 20s. From what he described to me, it was love at first sight for him but the whole marriage was just one big struggle of conflicting customs, expectations, and control of power. It ended up that the more he tried to be controlling, the more she rebelled or withdrew entirely, then the more he froze her out, etc. Vicious cycle of passive-aggressive behaviors by both. After several years of each trying to control or see just how badly he or she could hurt the other, the whole thing blew up when the woman finally left him for another man. 20 years later, my friend still has his wedding pics hanging on the wall and still mourns his failed marriage. Who was to blame there? I'd have to say both. Neither would compromise. He calls her 'The Inscrutable Oriental,' and I'd tend to agree with that. She kind of made it policy to tell him little or tell him just what he wanted to hear. We observers likened it that scene from The Godfather: 'Never tell your enemies what's on your mind.' I really don't think either of them started out to manipulate the other. I think both just had a definite roadmap of how a life should be lived, and those roadmaps were too different.

FYI - The PC term is "Asian," not Oriental.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 8/12/2007 11:32:39 AM
Author: elle_chris
I''ll take my chances since the more WHFSR posts the angrier I get.

Uptight, Anal and Control Issues all come to mind.

But aside from that, most of us have some of these traits in varying degrees. The trick is to understand them and work around them in our daily lives.
Working hard hasn''t mastered it yet.

Yep, me too. I cannot imagine why any of us are bothering to add our 2-cents because regardless of what we say, WSFSR''s isn''t going to open his eyes to ANY other perspective!

Waste of time.

 

[risingsun]

I must agree with the other posters, who have called WH''s plan an attempt to manipulate his FI into wearing her ring. I also believe it is naive of him to think that she will not notice that he is doing so. It is sounding as if WH has struggled to "get" this woman to date and ultimately commit to him. I think that wearing this ring speaks to his own insecurities about this relationship. Why is he worrying about men in bars? Women know how to deflect unwanted advances--ring or not, engaged or not. I hope that WH will really listen and hear our concerns.

 

[crystalheart1]

Yes - agreed.. this whole thing sounds "forced" and just not natural in a mutual, loving , relationship. I really wonder if this was the first girl he ever was in a serious relationship... I keep hearing - Look what I have done... even before this post I was feeling it

 

[Stone Hunter]

Date: 8/11/2007 1:51:16 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

anyway, my fiance wears it when she gets out of work and at home and she will wear it when she is shopping, etc, but not when she is working, which is the bulk of her time in life these days.

While one part of me understands it, the fact is I wont accept it at this point. Not 4 days after the proposal anyway. so its just a matter of trying to figure out how to talk about it without causing a fight, which I am afraid is going to be impossible.

Of course you''re angry and upset. It''s a big tradition here. Now I haven''t finished reading this thread but is it possible that she works in a FACTORY and it''s a safety issue? The corporate culture of the factory may be what''s going on. It may be considered inappropriate and unsafe to wear a ring at work.

And if she doesn''t work in a factory it''s really not a safety issue but a corporate culture issue. Very important in Asian culture to fit in at work.

But I am sorry that you''re upset.

 

[Stone Hunter]

Date: 8/11/2007 1:56:41 PM
Author: crystalheart1
I also thought the comment about being 40-50 and not having to buy an engagement ring was offensive to those who are

I think that he meant that Japanese women of that age do not expect e rings. Now that they are more Westernized the younger generation does expect erings.

I don''t think he meant anything other than that. (and I''m in that older age range LOL)

 

[Elise]

Date: 8/11/2007 1:51:16 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
oh they have rings for engagements....thats not the issue. I was def. expected to buy one, especially with those her age (if she were 40-50 I might be able to get away with not diong it, but def not at 25) though its quite a bit larger than I needed to get which is fine with me. Its just that they dont really wear them....

for instance, I have a chinese friend who recently got married. though her husband has completed his Doctorates in America he was unable to get a job in South carolina due to the timing of his graduation in correspondence with applications to live in america. thus he is living her illegally making 4-5 dollars an hour under the table and cant work full time, yet she still made him go to tif. and buy her a 2,500 dollar Ering that she went on to say was too small and she cant keep it, but she has to have one for now. What does she do with it? she leaves it in her closet! she hasnt worn it a single day!

anyway, my fiance wears it when she gets out of work and at home and she will wear it when she is shopping, etc, but not when she is working, which is the bulk of her time in life these days.

While one part of me understands it, the fact is I wont accept it at this point. Not 4 days after the proposal anyway. so its just a matter of trying to figure out how to talk about it without causing a fight, which I am afraid is going to be impossible.

Also in the future we will live in America but thats a good year to year and half, where I am positive she will wear it all the time. It probably shouldnt be as big a deal as I am making it out to be, but it is to me. so we will see what happens...but I nobody here to talk to so instead of going out to continue hunting for a jeweler familiar with palladium, as I had intended　（I cam across an Indian jeweler a while back and I remember he had a good bit of bench material in the back, so I am hoping he can do it), I paid for the media cafe so I could post here, since im a little angry

your example of your chinese friend is completely irrelevant. if you understood japanese culture as well as you claim you do, then you should have known that japanese culture is different from chinese culture as is chinese culture from korean culture, etc. your example is in no way representative of the chinese culture or even asian culture for that matter but seems to me more a sign of your friend's immaturity. it is offensive and insulting to use this as an example to support your case.

 

[simplysplendid]

WHSR, I think your response about having to take control is worrying. In my 15 years of relationship which includes 5 years of marriage, neither my hubby nor I had to "take control" of each other''s life in any situation. We raise issues and discuss them and work out a solution, not take control. How are you going to define what will hurt her/her family''s life and happiness which will require you to take control? What if she is happy with something but you are not which translates into the family not being happy? What kind of "control" are you going to exercise if her long hours persist? Make her quit?

What I simply cannot understand is why do you insist that she wears her ring at work? With regards to your goals (1)She can admire the ring when she is not at work (2)If she wants to think of you, she will, with or without the ring (3)Being engaged is a fact, not one that needs constant reminder by looking at the ring.

It sounds to me like you just want her to be tagged "taken" with the ring. I think it is your insecurities at play here.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 8/12/2007 5:14:08 PM
Author: AdaBeta27
WHFSR, I am going to take the minority viewpoint here and side with you. I think she should been honest about not wearing the e-ring at work. Heck, she could have told you that before ya bought it and then maybe you''d have decided to wait until you were back in the States, and could more easily afford that purchase. I have little patience for people who are not forthright about things.

I say forget whatever was said/written here, and you your lady go for counseling now.

This whole scenario sounds so much like the ex-marriage of a friend of mine that it''s spooky. He married an Oriental woman, when both were in their early 20s. From what he described to me, it was love at first sight for him but the whole marriage was just one big struggle of conflicting customs, expectations, and control of power. It ended up that the more he tried to be controlling, the more she rebelled or withdrew entirely, then the more he froze her out, etc. Vicious cycle of passive-aggressive behaviors by both. After several years of each trying to control or see just how badly he or she could hurt the other, the whole thing blew up when the woman finally left him for another man. 20 years later, my friend still has his wedding pics hanging on the wall and still mourns his failed marriage. Who was to blame there? I''d have to say both. Neither would compromise. He calls her ''The Inscrutable Oriental,'' and I''d tend to agree with that. She kind of made it policy to tell him little or tell him just what he wanted to hear. We observers likened it that scene from The Godfather: ''Never tell your enemies what''s on your mind.'' I really don''t think either of them started out to manipulate the other. I think both just had a definite roadmap of how a life should be lived, and those roadmaps were too different.

AdaBeta, from your description of how your friend handled the marriage, the marriage is doomed to fail whether he married an Asian woman or not. Why would his ex-wife tell him little or just what he wanted to hear? I think that''s because he had been refusing to listen to what she had really wanted to say.

 

[simplysplendid]

Elise, great minds think alike!

 

[lizardofaz]

For God''s sake, it''s JUST a ring... Seriously, in the grand scheme of things that a couple might (likely WILL) face in the course of a lifetime.... raising children, illnesses, family issues, the list goes on and on. Sorry, WHFSR, but if I were your fiance, I''d hand you that ring and go running, screaming off into the night....

 

[asscherisme]

Ditto to what lizardofaz said!