Have anyone bought roughs

[D&T]

just wondering if anyone have bought roughs and had a one of the highly recommend cutter cut a gem for you?

 

[T L]

I have a large piece of Afghan scope mouthwash mint green tourmaline rough. I want a faceter the caliber of Gene or Barry, but the only people doing recuts are not of that caliber it seems.

Dan Stair does recuts, but I don''t know if I would want a huge window in my stone after it''s recut.

Sorry for the honesty. His stones are either hits or misses.

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/4/2009 4:49:11 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I have a large piece of Afghan scope mouthwash mint green tourmaline rough. I want a faceter the caliber of Gene or Barry, but the only people doing recuts are not of that caliber it seems.

Dan Stair does recuts, but I don''t know if I would want a huge window in my stone after it''s recut.

Sorry for the honesty. His stones are either hits or misses.

would Barry recut or Gene?

 

[karee888]

wow, TL, I do think that there are a fair number of people who are happy with their stones from Dan. I own 5 [maybe more], and none of them have a window. And they all sparkle like mad.

 

[beach]

From what I have seen, Peter Torraca does a great job!

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 6/4/2009 5:35:39 PM
Author: beach
From what I have seen, Peter Torraca does a great job!

Ditto! I have a morganite that he ended up buying on my behalf when I founf it, and then cutting. The cutting is fabulous - the clarity of the morganite from Vallejo916, not so much.

 

[D&T]

thanks guys,,, I checked out Peter''s site, and his cutting style I really like too... I''ll go back and check it out for some gems,, and might just have him cut something for me... I''m onto a pendant project trillion or princess cut shape now

 

[beach]

Roger Dery does great work too. Roger and Peter work closely with eachother. They are actually going on a trip to Tanzania later this month to get more rough

On another note, LTP I love your rings! Where is the ring in your avatar from? Is it an LOGR ring?

 

[T L]

Date: 6/4/2009 5:11:47 PM
Author: karee888
wow, TL, I do think that there are a fair number of people who are happy with their stones from Dan. I own 5 [maybe more], and none of them have a window. And they all sparkle like mad.

Karee,
I''m sure that you have lovely stones from Dan. However, I think you have been lucky. Every so often someone shows up on PS with a Dan stone with a window, or a significant tilt window (remember Magenta''s spessertite with the dead center?). I don''t know why this is, but nonetheless, it has happened. Look at the pear amethyst on his front page (if it hasn''t sold) - and tell me you don''t think that''s too shallow cut.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/4/2009 4:52:23 PM
Author: D&T
would Barry recut or Gene?

I don't like to speak for them, so you should ask them, but I highly doubt it. I know Gene has said in the past that he has stopped doing it, and he doesn't like to recut stones or someone else's rough.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/4/2009 5:50:49 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier

Ditto! I have a morganite that he ended up buying on my behalf when I founf it, and then cutting. The cutting is fabulous - the clarity of the morganite from Vallejo916, not so much.

I think Bob Kast has a similar cutting style to Dan Stair, and they are quite comprable. They are also inexpensive.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/4/2009 5:35:39 PM
Author: beach
From what I have seen, Peter Torraca does a great job!

Does he do recuts though?

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 6/4/2009 6:04:15 PM
Author: beach
Roger Dery does great work too. Roger and Peter work closely with eachother. They are actually going on a trip to Tanzania later this month to get more rough

On another note, LTP I love your rings! Where is the ring in your avatar from? Is it an LOGR ring?

Thanks, Beach! The ring in my avatar is my engagement ring done by Whiteflash about 3 years ago.

 

[Magenta]

Date: 6/4/2009 6:20:15 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I''m sure that you have lovely stones from Dan. However, I think you have been lucky. Every so often someone shows up on PS with a Dan stone with a window, or a significant tilt window (remember Magenta''s spessertite with the dead center?). I don''t know why this is, but nonetheless, it has happened. Look at the pear amethyst on his front page (if it hasn''t sold) - and tell me you don''t think that''s too shallow cut.

In my case, it was that the rough was a bit flat, so he had to use shallower angles to get it to work. I found that out after I said I wasn''t happy with the stone - there was a similar line on the description.

While not exactly pertinent to this thread, it''s probably relevant to anyone buying a Dan Stair stone - if the photo doesn''t look perfect, the gem probably isn''t perfect - the photos show the gems at their best (for the most part, at least). Along with that amethyst that you pointed out, I''d wonder about that sapphire that hasn''t sold, too.

This raises the interesting question, though. If you have a piece of rough that will make a nice-ish stone, but does have to have a fairly bad normal or tilt window, is it worth cutting it and trying to sell it?

I don''t have anything to contribute to the rough discussion, though. Sorry

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/4/2009 9:49:36 PM
Author: Magenta

Date: 6/4/2009 6:20:15 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I''m sure that you have lovely stones from Dan. However, I think you have been lucky. Every so often someone shows up on PS with a Dan stone with a window, or a significant tilt window (remember Magenta''s spessertite with the dead center?). I don''t know why this is, but nonetheless, it has happened. Look at the pear amethyst on his front page (if it hasn''t sold) - and tell me you don''t think that''s too shallow cut.

In my case, it was that the rough was a bit flat, so he had to use shallower angles to get it to work. I found that out after I said I wasn''t happy with the stone - there was a similar line on the description.

While not exactly pertinent to this thread, it''s probably relevant to anyone buying a Dan Stair stone - if the photo doesn''t look perfect, the gem probably isn''t perfect - the photos show the gems at their best (for the most part, at least). Along with that amethyst that you pointed out, I''d wonder about that sapphire that hasn''t sold, too.

This raises the interesting question, though. If you have a piece of rough that will make a nice-ish stone, but does have to have a fairly bad normal or tilt window, is it worth cutting it and trying to sell it?

I don''t have anything to contribute to the rough discussion, though. Sorry

MAGENTA- i was trying to find your posts on that gorgeous avatar you have... you mind sharing?

 

[T L]

Date: 6/4/2009 9:49:36 PM
Author: Magenta

Date: 6/4/2009 6:20:15 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I''m sure that you have lovely stones from Dan. However, I think you have been lucky. Every so often someone shows up on PS with a Dan stone with a window, or a significant tilt window (remember Magenta''s spessertite with the dead center?). I don''t know why this is, but nonetheless, it has happened. Look at the pear amethyst on his front page (if it hasn''t sold) - and tell me you don''t think that''s too shallow cut.

In my case, it was that the rough was a bit flat, so he had to use shallower angles to get it to work. I found that out after I said I wasn''t happy with the stone - there was a similar line on the description.

While not exactly pertinent to this thread, it''s probably relevant to anyone buying a Dan Stair stone - if the photo doesn''t look perfect, the gem probably isn''t perfect - the photos show the gems at their best (for the most part, at least). Along with that amethyst that you pointed out, I''d wonder about that sapphire that hasn''t sold, too.

This raises the interesting question, though. If you have a piece of rough that will make a nice-ish stone, but does have to have a fairly bad normal or tilt window, is it worth cutting it and trying to sell it?

I don''t have anything to contribute to the rough discussion, though. Sorry

Then perhaps Dan occasionally cuts rough to save on weight rather than for beauty. The precision cutters like Gene or Barry will not sell such a stone if it doesn''t "perform" well. Those guys rather lose weight than sacrafice beauty, and I admire them for that.

 

[Magenta]

Date: 6/4/2009 10:04:32 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Then perhaps Dan occasionally cuts rough to save on weight rather than for beauty. The precision cutters like Gene or Barry will not sell such a stone if it doesn't 'perform' well. Those guys rather lose weight than sacrifice beauty, and I admire them for that.

That must be the case. Presumably they give away anything that doesn't perform well, then.

Date: 6/4/2009 9:58:50 PM
Author: D&T
MAGENTA- i was trying to find your posts on that gorgeous avatar you have... you mind sharing?

I don't have a post for it yet - It's on it's way. USPS says "Electronic Shipping Info Received" since the 31st.

It's from finewater gems, and still listed on their page. Gary said I could make an offer, so I did. I bought that and the citrine. When I get them here, I'll be posting more pictures. I can't wait to see it!

 

[chrono]

Date: 6/4/2009 10:45:57 PM
Author: Magenta

Date: 6/4/2009 10:04:32 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Then perhaps Dan occasionally cuts rough to save on weight rather than for beauty. The precision cutters like Gene or Barry will not sell such a stone if it doesn''t ''perform'' well. Those guys rather lose weight than sacrifice beauty, and I admire them for that.

That must be the case. Presumably they give away anything that doesn''t perform well, then.

I think they don''t buy such rough in the first place - it would be a waste of money to buy something too shallow to get the critical angles.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 6/4/2009 4:45:54 PM
Author:D&T
just wondering if anyone have bought roughs and had a one of the highly recommend cutter cut a gem for you?

Buying rough stones if you aren''t a cutter can be a big frustration. The reason for this is that there is ALWAYS something wrong with a given piece of rough. It''s either thin in the wrong place, tapered strangely, has inclusions that didn''t show in pictures, has surface pits or is shaped strangely. I was sent a piece of rough once which was shaped like a saddle. The seller claimed that it could be cut in two and would make a excellent pair. Only problem was I needed a single stone. This was something like a $2000 piece of aqua....and so it went back. In any case, if you don''t know what you''re doing, don''t have a microscope and are willing to lose at least 75% of the stone to grinding dust, it''s best to let whoever you want to cut the stone, find the rough.

As for re-cuts, they''d be fine if the owner realized the hit they might take on them. There are times when you may lose 50% of a stone to re-cut to something worthwhile, maybe more if the shape is going to change. Since many people have this idea that you just wave a magic wand and the stone magically becomes perfect with no loss of weight, it can be a frustrating experience for the cutter, as well as the owner. That said, if you''re willing to take the risks and understand that there may be significant weight loss, then you should have no problem finding a good cutter to do the re-cut for you, (particularly since there are a lot of software aids to help in getting the best looking cut available).

I did want to address the idea of someone being able to cut a stone to have less of a tilt window. Sorry, it''s not really possible, as the angle at which you get a tilt window depends on the RI of the material. Sapphire will typically show a window at 9° of tilt. This can be extended to about 12° by making the pavilion deeper, but then you reduce the overall brightness with no tilt. Lower RI stones are even worse, tourmaline showing a window at just over 5° in a well cut stone. It''s all a trade off and it''s usually better to shoot for maximum brightness in a face up position, particularly with darker stones.

 

[D&T]

Thanks michael- very informative, so if i found a very inexpensive stone in around 9mm or 10mm love the color but the faceting just doesn''t do it for me and its an oval, i can potentially get a round maybe? with more brillance with the potentail final measurement of about 4-5mm? worst case scenario. So do you recut or would consider recut? just wondering for future refernce

 

[chrono]

There is another risk in recuts that I experienced on a red spinel someone was recutting for me. Fortunately for me, the cutter bore the entire risk because he sourced the original stone for me. The short story is that the spinel developed a stress fracture that kept on growing for several days. The end result is that my 2.6 ct red spinel ended up being a 1 ct red spinel.

 

[chrono]

Date: 6/5/2009 9:04:09 AM
Author: D&T
Thanks michael- very informative, so if i found a very inexpensive stone in around 9mm or 10mm love the color but the faceting just doesn''t do it for me and its an oval, i can potentially get a round maybe? with more brillance with the potentail final measurement of about 4-5mm? worst case scenario. So do you recut or would consider recut? just wondering for future refernce

D&T,
You can get a round out of it but I would guess your weight loss to be at least 60%. If you can imagine a round shape inside an oval, you can see that the 2 outside areas that will be lost. Yes, you will potentially end up with a 4 mm stone, if nothing goes wrong. The value will also drop by 70% to 80% when you consider the weight loss plus the cutting fee. For something this drastic, I would not recut it. If you really want to recut it for additional brilliance while maintaining as much weight as possible, then I suggest a supernova oval.

 

[hoofbeats95]

I have a hard time believing that Dan cuts for weight. I watch his site constantly and often times I am shocked at the before and after weight of a stone. JMO.

 

[chrono]

Hoofbeats,
It is pretty normal to get only 30% of the final weight when the stone is done. If you are unlucky, maybe 25%. If you are lucky, 40% is considered very good. In addition, a good cutter is also able to maximize the weight of the rough. An inexperienced cutter will lose a LOT of rough in the cutting process, probably more than 70%.

 

[D&T]

thanks Chrono- oh i was throwing an idea out there, but i wouldn''t do any drastic cut from one shape to another... ooh what possibilties though..

 

[PrecisionGem]

Interesting thread. Here''s my 2 cents on the topic.

1. Buying rough is much more difficult than buying a cut stone. First, it''s very hard to find good rough to cut, and then once you do, evaluating it, to determine what can be cut from it takes years of experience. Buying a piece off ebay is almost a guarantee of disappointment. No one sells quality rough at discount prices. You also need to buy from a trusted source, and be able to verify that what you are buying is what you think it is. This would mean you would need a few basic tools, and know how to use them.

2. Getting someone to cut the rough for you is another thing. There are several reason why many cutters will not cut someone''s rough.
a) You buy a stone, think it''s wonderful, give it to the cutter to cut, and the finished stone does not meet your expectations, because, well it really wasn''t wonderful rough. You are not happy!
b) The stone cracks as it''s being cut, so your 15 ct. turns into a 1 ct finished stones. You are not happy!
c) Upon cutting the stone, and examining it, the cutter realizes that your sapphire is really glass. You are not Happy!
d) During the cutting process, the stone flys off the dop, and needs to be redopped, you end up with a smaller stone. You are not happy!
e) You think your 15 ct stone should yield a 6 or 7 ct finished stone, and you end up with a 4 ct stone. You are not Happy!
f) You think your stone you paid $50 off ebay is clean, but once it''s cut it''s full of bubbles and is very sleepy. You are not happy!

The list goes on.....

As cutters, we want a happy customer.

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/5/2009 11:06:31 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
Interesting thread. Here''s my 2 cents on the topic.

1. Buying rough is much more difficult than buying a cut stone. First, it''s very hard to find good rough to cut, and then once you do, evaluating it, to determine what can be cut from it takes years of experience. Buying a piece off ebay is almost a guarantee of disappointment. No one sells quality rough at discount prices. You also need to buy from a trusted source, and be able to verify that what you are buying is what you think it is. This would mean you would need a few basic tools, and know how to use them.

2. Getting someone to cut the rough for you is another thing. There are several reason why many cutters will not cut someone''s rough.
a) You buy a stone, think it''s wonderful, give it to the cutter to cut, and the finished stone does not meet your expectations, because, well it really wasn''t wonderful rough. You are not happy!
b) The stone cracks as it''s being cut, so your 15 ct. turns into a 1 ct finished stones. You are not happy!
c) Upon cutting the stone, and examining it, the cutter realizes that your sapphire is really glass. You are not Happy!
d) During the cutting process, the stone flys off the dop, and needs to be redopped, you end up with a smaller stone. You are not happy!
e) You think your 15 ct stone should yield a 6 or 7 ct finished stone, and you end up with a 4 ct stone. You are not Happy!
f) You think your stone you paid $50 off ebay is clean, but once it''s cut it''s full of bubbles and is very sleepy. You are not happy!

The list goes on.....

As cutters, we want a happy customer.

fantastic Point Gene, thanks for chiming in... Its just interesting, that I see all these roughs on auctions and wonder who buys them (even tinkering with the idea myself to have something that I picked out from scratch to the final result), and realistically what the outcomes of it is.

 

[Ryon]

Yeah, buying rough does seem alot more complicated because only an experienced cutter can tell what they can make out of it. It is also a liability issue as well, we should just buy cut stones, not rough.

I have heard from many cutters it takes years of experience to know what to expect from the finished product by just looking at rough.

 

[Michael_E]

I see all these roughs on auctions and wonder who buys them (even tinkering with the idea myself to have something that I picked out from scratch to the final result), and realistically what the outcomes of it is.

My experience is that the outcomes are generally lower than you are imagining. The roughs on E-bay and other auction sites have been looked over by a lot of people prior to being listed there and all those other potential buyers have passed for one reason or another. The pictures shown may be back lit, showing a stone which is much brighter than it really is. The stone can have concave areas which aren''t shown adequately. It can have color zoned areas which have to be cut off, leaving a nearly colorless stone. The list goes on. On the other hand if the price is attractive, the seller has good ratings and a good return policy it might be worth a shot. Just make sure to have your preferred cutter check the stone out, give you an opinion, and then be willing to accept whatever you end up with before committing to the purchase.

Usually you''re going to get better values for your money by approaching a cutter and asking what they have in rough that will cut something that you have in mind. All cutters have a box of rocks waiting to be chopped up and they''ve already gone through them to make sure they''re worthwhile. Better to pick the rough from a cutter you like, than to mess around with taking a potential loss yourself.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Buying rough when you are not a dealer is probably a bad idea - yes, you can get lucky, but unless you have been trained you don''t really know what you''re looking at. A huge piece of rough may seem good to get at least one decent stone out of, but it''s just as likely that it will be full of cracks, inclusions, or otherwise bad areas. I wouldn''t do it.

And Peter Torraca will do recuts.