Head going to explode...

[fire&ice]

Date: 10/20/2005 4:36:33 PM
Author: AmandaPanda
All things said and done, I think he''s just being a boy. It''s the ''why-fix-it-if-it''s-not-broke'' syndrome!

The question to ask yourself is "Do you feel broke with the lack of pending marriage proposal?" You ARE part of this equation. Is it just a frustration or is it leaving a whole in your heart?

I think most men are commitment phobic. Most need a nudge. I think if I hadn''t expressed my sincere desire to have the relationship lead to a finality, I''m not sure the idea would have popped into his head. I joke that he took the lesser of two evils.

The thought of marriage

to me or the thought of NOT living the rest of our lives together. And, they never remember the nudge. For them, it''s kinda like child birth pain - you remember the joy - not the pain.

We are all a product of our experiences. I was adamant at the time that I was not going to invest tons of emotional energies again leading to something that wasn''t going to end up with what I wanted - marriage. This is where I am coming from. But, on the fate/luck side - the timing was right.

Only you can determine what is right for you. But, all of you LIW, you DO have control of your own fate. Marriage is a partnership w/ a constant mesh of give and take. It starts by recognizing the others desires.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 10/20/2005 4:36:33 PM
Author: AmandaPanda
All things said and done, I think he's just being a boy. It's the 'why-fix-it-if-it's-not-broke' syndrome!

I guess my question is: what's gonna change that? And if it doesn't change, will you be happy being together and unmarried indefinitely? If yes, then that's great.....no worries.

I'm not picking on you at all, AP...but this has been a recurrent thing (as I'm sure it would with ANYONE who wanted to move to the next step). This isn't the first time you're expressing your frustration at not being engaged and feeling like it's something wrong with *you*. That's not healthy.

You say you're happy with the way things are...and maybe you are. But people who are truly happy with things don't feel insecure because of what things *aren't*. People who are happy aren't frustrated on a daily basis. If they are happy with the way things are, there wouldn't be a need to vent about what *isn't*. You want to be married, and that want isn't being met. If you were happy, you wouldn't be pointing to all the reasons (financially stable, etc) why you think you should be able to marry. I could be wrong, definitely.....but that's how I see it.

I don't think anyone's telling you to leave him. I think the point being made? You (not just you, anyone is this situation) really have two choices.....accept the status quo or change it. If you're gonna accept it, then *really* accept it and stop wanting it to be something else. And if you're going to change the status quo, then change it.

 

[Hunali]

Most guys like things just the way they are. They don''t aspire to get married like girls do, especially if they are getting what they want w/o being married. You are living with him, so obviously there is no rush to run to the alter. He has you there with him, and apparently that''s good enough for him. It sounds like you want more and would like to become a family. A lot of guys need the extra push to propose. My cousin was in a similar situation that you are currently in. She was 29 and definitely ready to be married and start a family. She was also living with her then bf, who was 31 at the time. She was looking for him to propose very soon, and he explained to her that why change things when they''re good, and that he simply wasn''t ready to get married and didn''t know when he would be. So.........my cousin got her act together and kicked him out (this was her place)! He got scared of losing her, and proposed just a few months later, and now they are happily married.

Sometimes, guys need to know that marriage means the world to you, and that is where you are in life, and that you are NOT happy with the way things are. But you have to be willing to talk with him about it. Maybe, he can give you an approximate timeline so that this doesn''t drive you crazy and you then wouldn''t have to wonder when a proposal will come. I don''t think he''s being fair to you by saying that he doesn''t know when he''ll be ready, b/c what if he''s never ready, and you''re still waiting around for him? I would have a serious talk with him. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope things work out with the two of you b/c it does sound like he loves you and you love him.

 

[jaysonsmom]

Date: 10/20/2005 5:29:22 PM
Author: aljdewey

I guess my question is: what''s gonna change that? And if it doesn''t change, will you be happy being together and unmarried indefinitely? If yes, then that''s great.....no worries.

I''m not picking on you at all, AP...but this has been a recurrent thing (as I''m sure it would with ANYONE who wanted to move to the next step). This isn''t the first time you''re expressing your frustration at not being engaged and feeling like it''s something wrong with *you*. That''s not healthy.

You say you''re happy with the way things are...and maybe you are. But people who are truly happy with things don''t feel insecure because of what things *aren''t*. People who are happy aren''t frustrated on a daily basis. If they are happy with the way things are, there wouldn''t be a need to vent about what *isn''t*. You want to be married, and that want isn''t being met. If you were happy, you wouldn''t be pointing to all the reasons (financially stable, etc) why you think you should be able to marry. I could be wrong, definitely.....but that''s how I see it.

I don''t think anyone''s telling you to leave him. I think the point being made? You (not just you, anyone is this situation) really have two choices.....accept the status quo or change it. If you''re gonna accept it, then *really* accept it and stop wanting it to be something else. And if you''re going to change the status quo, then change it.

Once again you''ve written my exact thoughts!!!!

Sorry Amanda, you really don''t sound like a person that is happy in the situation because there have been past posts about wanting to open up lines of communication between the two of you. You have come to the board on advice on how to express your needs/wants without scaring your bf. These all point to being unhappy with the status quo. You have to stop believing you are okay with this because the title of this thread speaks louder than all your denials about how "happy" you are. If you love him, and want to be with him, you have to prepare yourself for the fact that you may never get the proposal you want.

 

[Mara]

"accept the status quo or change it. If you're gonna accept it, then *really* accept it and stop wanting it to be something else. And if you're going to change the status quo, then change it."

___________

This is so how I think too...it's kind of like Greg who used to complain continuously about his job. How it wasn't working for him, he wasn't happy, he deserved better etc. I tried and tried to give him ideas on how to make it better and offered to help him look for a new gig, sent him job descriptions, ideas etc. Mind you that this is an MBA graduate from one of the top grad schools in the USA and I'm giving him tips..

But anyway, he never did anything to progressively help his situation. He was going to start looking etc..was going to update his resume etc. Never really did. Finally I said you know what, I don't want to hear about it anymore. Stop whining to me. I've been supportive and you OBVIOUSLY do not want to change your situation so you must like some part of it, so I suggest you really do some soul searching and figure out if you are okay with this love-hate relationship you have with your job. If you are TRULY and deeply unhappy there, then LEAVE. If you find out that you kind of secretly like being miserable and around other miserable MBA's like you because that is what makes you feel like you are being productive or living a great career or whatever, then SHUT UP about it.

Not very supportive I am sure but I had just had it. If I have ever in a job been unhappy..guess what? I leave and get a better job. If I have ever in a relationship been unhappy...I eventually figure it out and leave and find a better relationship. Everything in your life is a learning experience...and each failed job or relationship shows you what you don't want in a relationship/job and DO want in a future relationship/job.

So what's going on today? Well he is STILL with that company...and he has finally come to terms and admitted that he kind of likes the situation where he's pushed and pulled and maybe made to be challenged more. He's moved up the ladder and is now a Director, makes more money, etc. But he still wants to leave and has actually done more about looking into that this year than any other year. He got his resume professionally updated, he's had calls from recruiters, has had some interviws. And he doesn't whine anymore!

What does that tell me? No amount of helping or pushing or shoving in this particular situation from ME, an important person who he loves, assisted him at all. What assisted ME and my sanity is telling him to put his money where his mouth is and stop whining about it to me. And what is finally assisting him is his OWN WILL to change his situation and realization that maybe soon he will be ready to do something else on his own terms.

Sure this is not the same situation, but this example shows me that it's all about timing and also that you can't force anyone to do anything...even if they profess that they want it. They have to make those steps and talk the walk on their own...and sometimes even though they SAY they want something, it really isn't what they are ready for in their hearts.

But my bottom line for how I live my everyday life is that I don't whine about stuff. Ever. If I am unhappy with something, or frustrated, I FIX IT and move on. I can't wait in a holding pattern, that is not how I function. I can't stand when people just talk about how horrible a situation is and take no steps to corret it. Passive is not the way to live a life. Maybe some people like to be miserable (Greg sometimes is like that where he just wants sympathy from me and he admits it!!)..but I am not one of those people. Life is too darn short to be wanting something that you don't have yet or can't get.

Oh and I am not addressing this to just you AP...I see other posts from LIW's that remind me of this same situation from time to time.

 

[pebbles]

I too am not directing this just to AP....

Change is very hard for some people. Fear of the unknown is a huge motivating factor. So whether it is a job, career, relationship, whatever, many people are afraid to made a decision, or to do something because they are paralyzed by that fear.

When I was in college, I dated this one guy for a couple of years. I would say the whole second year I dated him I was unhappy, not because I wanted a proposal, but because there was just something missing from our relationship. I didn''t want to break up with him because I wanted to be with someone, but I really didn''t want to be with him either. I was too afraid to do anything because I didn''t know what would happen. One day my sister said to me (kind of along the lines of what Mara told her hubby), "I am sick of hearing you complain about "Jim". If you''re not happy, do something about it. If you like wallowing around being miserable, then do so, I just don''t want to hear about it". It was kind of a shock to hear her say that, but she was right. I wanted my situation to change, but at the same time I didn''t want it to change, if that makes sense. Finally, about a month later I did break up with Jim. I questioned myself, asking if I did the right thing, but I realized that if I''m unhappy, it is no one else''s responsibility to make me happy but mine. I kept waiting for him to make me happy, and it wasn''t happening.

I know my situation isn''t exactly like what the LIWs are going though, but what I guess what I''m saying that some guys give the "I''m not ready to get married" speech because they are so afraid of the unknown. They don''t want things to change. Is it a valid excuse?...for a while, maybe, but personally, I don''t want to be around someone that is not ready to take a chance or to make a leap of faith. Every couple that gets married is taking a HUGE leap of faith. Heck, every day you walk out the door you take a huge leap of faith that you''re going to come home OK. Like is full of risks and full of chances.

I think I tolerate a lot less now that I''ve turned 30.

 

[Croí]

okay, so it''s a Friday and has been an emotional few days (we''re good, but other stuff) and then I found myself here reading Amanda''s vent and all of the responses and I have to say that I feel SO sorry for you Amanda. Not ''sorry'' in a ''pity'' sense either. It''s not because he hasn''t proposed and it''s not because you haven''t moved on, it''s because you honestly seem so *stuck*.

apologies in advance for those who are tired of hearing my opinion (with personal history) on this topic .....

I can understand all of the ladies who have told you (and again, not just you, others who have waited and waited too) to ''cut your losses'' and move on. I think it''s easy for us to say it because we are already past the point where you are at now and have found better partners/relationships etc. and have lived through it and arrived at better things so we have no fear, as such, of that monumental change. We''ve already done it. That does not mean it''s easy though, far from it.
I have been amazed since I joined PS to find so many who did what I did, waited and waited and waited ... for nothing. I was the total romantic/idiot (take your pick!) - I spent eleven years waiting. And I really loved him too, and I''ll even be honest and admit he was not a jerk and he did love me. He just didn''t want to marry (whether marry at all or just marry me, I still don''t know - he''s ''dating'' now but has been mostly single since I left him - er, for those wondering how I know, I''m still great pals with his sis and Mum and we still have overlapping friends, eleven years is a loooong time).

Sparks flew for my wonderful, darling now-hubby and I about eight months after I moved out. (note: I moved out to ''shake up'' my ex and make him make a decision once and for all. he did, well, nothing. at all. so I was left with ''move back in and accept it for how it''s always been'' or ''move on''. I chose - painfully - to move on but now I have to admit it was well worth it.)

P. & I started to really have a relationship (other than walks and talking and so forth) about a year to the day after I moved out.
Two years to the day exactly - it was really weird ! - I was in a church doing my pre-marriage course ! (I had originally moved out on April Fools! I picked it deliberately, not knowing if I was making the most foolish mistake of my life by leaving this guy I had loved so much - the joke was on me, it was the BEST decision I ever made !!

)

I agree with whomever said that it''s really a combination of finding a person who reciprocates your feelings AND timing/luck. I never imagined I would find someone who not only was better to me and for me but with whom I share a relationship that (had I spent a million years with him) I could never have had with my ex.

Having said all that, I do realise every person and relationship is different and that it is easy for me to say this now, from my happy and secure marriage. It is NOT easy where you are at and I have SUCH sympathy and empathy in my heart for you right now.

I would also like to address something I''m not sure anyone has mentioned and that is respect. You can (I know I did) love someone fiercely and still lose respect for them. Respect is fundamental, it''s hugely important. I know that one of the biggest things my husband and I have going for us is respect. He knows I don''t just say something - seriously - out of ''womanly emotions'' or any other such rot. He knows that if I sit down with him to tell him how I am feeling about something then it COUNTS, it''s not just words or waffle or anything like that, it is something that truly means something to me (even if he can''t fathom it from his male perspective) and he will respect that and act or react accordingly. Truly, that is so important and it works both ways too, something that (to me) might not seem important at all, may be very important to him and I always try to say "this is important to him" and remember those times when he respected things that were important to me (there are too many ''important''s in there, sorry!!) Anyway, there''s no escaping all the differences between men and women, the key is knowing how to respect those differences and know when something is trivial and when something is not. We definitely don''t always put the same emphasis on the same things and part of being a positive part of a relationship is knowing when something is not trivial to your partner, even if you can''t see it from where you stand.
I think guys who keep someone waiting *forever* are disrespectful of the REAL feelings and emotions of their gf/bf. If you are not where they are at, stand up, be an adult, and say so !
There is the flip-side of course, that the longer you ''wait'' the more the ball is in your own court - there does come a time when you just know that it''s not happening; you are not on the same page and are not likely to be. Then you are being disrespectful by staying (because you really don''t believe in it anymore, even if you outwardly tell the world that you do) and worst of all you are disrespecting yourself. We all deserve to be love and be loved in return - in equal measure. There is nothing selfish in that. Staying in a relationship that is not providing all that you need is just destructive, because you begin to see so much fault with your partner, who is ''letting you down'' yet, you have equal responsibility for the situation, because you CHOSE to stay. Again, all of this is far easier for me to say now, and understand now, than it was was when I was in it and just coudn''t understand WHY WHY WHY my ex still hadn''t proposed.

Only you know, deep inside yourself, if you are happy (really truly happy) or not. If not, then something has to change.
I am rooting for you and thinking of you and REALLY hope things work out for the best but I, and many more here, can tell you that there is life after the ''long haul'' should you decide to try for new horizons.

Most important of all, we are here for you and do not judge - these are huge life decisions we all make and each of us has to reach choices in our own time and using our own yardstick.

*huggingyoutight*
C

 

[anchor31]

"I don''t understand why he would initiate it and then back off. Guys are so confusing sometimes."

My boyfriend looked at rings in display windows right in my face on last Christmas break, but it turns out he had no intention to propose just yet. He doesn''t seem to mind talking about it early, but doing it... it''s another business.

Well, last summer he asked me to move in with him next summer and I said no. I made it clear that I wouldn''t move in with him unless we were at least engaged to be married, not engaged just to be engaged. At first, he was really choking. "Marriage is the biggest decision of one''s life and I''m not ready for it yet", that sort of thing. That''s fine with me, the last thing I want is to make him do something he isn''t ready for, and two years is still reasonable for us. But now he knows that if he wants me to live with him and have children with him (which he wants very badly and is looking forward to), he''ll have to marry me.

In the last two months, he brought up the subject of marriage by himself for a serious conversation (what he hadn''t done before) FOUR times. During those talks I realised that he was afraid I wanted to be engaged/marry him just for the ring and wedding and/or that eventually want to divorce. I made sure he knew that I didn''t care about the ring (I really don''t) and wanted a small wedding (I really do) and that really seemed to calm his anxieties.

Last weekend, he told me he told someone about wanting to propose to me. That doesn''t mean he has plans, but at least he''s thinking about it seriously. When he''s going to do it? I have no idea, but we''ll keep talking about what we need and want and I''ll keep putting little pointers in his path and at some point he''ll make plans and will probably think all of it was his idea!

Bottom line is, it''s important that they know how important it is to you. If he hadn''t known how important it is for me, my boyfriend probably would have put it off until the last possible moment and would had me wait ten years. I know he would have married me eventually because he wants to marry before having children, but that could be in many years still. It''s also important for us to find out why they aren''t ready, which is really what they are afraid of. My boyfriend was afraid I''d only care about my engagement ring and my wedding dress. That I didn''t really want to marry him, but just wanted to get married. He was also afraid of divorce. His fears are not surprising, since there are a lot of materialistic "standards" surrounding engagement and marriage, and the divorce rates are alarming.

I hope this helps a little...

Cheers!

 

[goldengirl]

I think we all have an idea of "how long" we''ll wait. F&I, I have the same story as you: I told him up front I wasn''t going to wait around forever. I gave him what I thought was a reasonable time frame. Does that mean I''m not impatient NOW? Of course not!

Because I love him and I want to start the rest of our lives together... I''m sticking by my earlier time frame, because I gave it as a time frame that any reasonable person could make the marry/not marry decision. And he is exceedingly reasonable. Just because *I''M* ready early, doesn''t mean I''m going to push him to be.

That said, I''m not terrifically patient and I''m not the kind of girl who would stay with a guy never knowing if marriage was in the picture. Some people are, and can accept that, although you may call it "settling." Maybe they call it, "being with the man they love." Furthermore, how do you know what Amanda''s internal countdown clock says? Some girls only wait a year. Some wait ten. She is otherwise happy in her relationship. I think most girls don''t make the decision to leave until the unhappiness of the non-engagement outweighs the happiness of the rest of the relationship.

Sure, there are tons of stories about girls being sick of waiting, breaking up, and meeting Mr. Right right away. But there are others, too. That friend I mentioned earlier? I didn''t finish the story because it''s not quite so inspiring. She went on to have a steamy rebound relationship with one of her co-workers (above her, but not directly). A month later she got pregnant. Now she is looking at the next 18 years of being a single mom, and Rebound Guy is not going to help her out one bit. He''s kicking and screaming the whole ride. She''s moving back in with her parents because she won''t be able to afford this on her own. And her ex? Found a barely-legal replacement for her in a few weeks'' time, quit his job to travel the US with her for a month, and then moved the new girlfriend into his house when he''d fought my friend taking that step for five years. Can you imagine how that feels?

So, yes, sometimes those stories of strength end well, and sometimes they don''t. How many of the latter do you think get shared when someone is looking for encouragement?

This is a huge decision and she will make it in her own time.