Help and Opinions

[Porridge]

Date: 5/4/2009 1:30:04 AM
Author: katkat
He is planning on meeting with my Dad this month. Wanted to have a diamond bought within a month.

Planning, wanted, hope to, within a month, yadda yadda yadda. Lame, wishy washy, heard it before.

He had a deadline. He knew it. He blew it.

And it takes him weeks of flopping around with e-mails and letters and texts before settling on this excuse?

Religion excuses or not, he should have manned up and put his cards plainly on the table before the deadline. End of.

Date: 5/4/2009 1:52:59 AM
Author: brooklyngirl
Hmm. So now he wants to marry you, and meet with your dad next month? If that''s the case, why is the religion issue on the table? It appears that the issue was not resolved, so how is he now moving forward with engagement?

I am confused too about this.

KatKat - You. Are. BAD@$$.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 5/4/2009 3:16:02 AM
Author: Porridge

Date: 5/4/2009 1:30:04 AM

Author: katkat

He is planning on meeting with my Dad this month. Wanted to have a diamond bought within a month.

Planning, wanted, hope to, within a month, yadda yadda yadda. Lame, wishy washy, heard it before.


He had a deadline. He knew it. He blew it.


And it takes him weeks of flopping around with e-mails and letters and texts before settling on this excuse?


Religion excuses or not, he should have manned up and put his cards plainly on the table before the deadline. End of.

Agreed, especially the bolded bit.

Author: Porridge

Date: 5/4/2009 1:52:59 AM

Author: brooklyngirl

Hmm. So now he wants to marry you, and meet with your dad next month? If that's the case, why is the religion issue on the table? It appears that the issue was not resolved, so how is he now moving forward with engagement?

I am confused too about this.

katkat, if you are not comfortable sharing more details about the religious issue, that is fine and completely understandable, but if you don't mind us knowing, it might possibly help in our advice-giving to know a little more.

Although I too find that really confusing as well, it sort of makes me think that he himself is really, mega confused and doesn't know what he wants (other than that things didn't have to change between the two of you--as others have said, you just stay the forever girlfriend to keep him in his comfort zone). He says this, then that--he wants this religion thing to be resolved--but wait, no, now he wants to talk to katkat's dad and buy a diamond. Which is it? If the religious issue is a dealbreaker, why is he not sitting down to discuss it? Why is the answer now to (seemingly) ignore it and talk about buying a diamond and having 'the talk' with Dad, even though just before it was a big deal and (another) reason for his hesitation? Will this religious issue rear its ugly head whenever he's feeling especially confused and out of control of a situation in your relationship? There WAS a deadline before, and none of this came to light then, even though it's pretty important stuff. That would make me feel a bit hesitant about him. He's entitled to feel scared and have doubts and religious concerns, but his excuse for not talking to you about them doesn't make sense if he wanted them to be resolved and his bringing them up *now* reeks of desperation to continue stringing you along and to reflect some blame off himself (that's how it sounds to me, anyway, although it's possible I'm being a bit harsher than he deserves).

AND he's additionally had how much time after the break-up (what, a month?) to think these things through and do something, and he *still* doesn't seem to know where he stands--he's trying to win you back, but in a confusing way because he still doesn't know what to do, even though he knows what you want from him. No doubt he sounded sincere about wanting you back--that was so much better than how confused he feels now! He didn't have to worry about anything before, because things just stayed the same. But now you want them to change, and he talks about hoping to do things *in the future* again (not already done--the talk with dad, the diamond, all in the nebulous future), but he also talks about stuff that would STOP it from happening (e.g. the religion issue). He is confused, and afraid, and I suspect he will only let you down again with more excuses about the talk with Dad and the buying of a diamond. But maybe not.

What do YOU think, deep down in your heart, katkat? You know him. You care for him. You want or had wanted to spend your life with him. Do you want to give this guy another chance? Yet again, he's put the ball back in YOUR court so YOU have to make the difficult decisions. Do you want to see if he will come through this time?

Author: Porridge
KatKat - You. Are. BAD@$$.

Damn straight.

 

[bee*]

Date: 5/4/2009 1:52:59 AM
Author: brooklyngirl
Hmm. So now he wants to marry you, and meet with your dad next month? If that''s the case, why is the religion issue on the table? It appears that the issue was not resolved, so how is he now moving forward with engagement?

That''s the one issue that struck me too. How has he resolved this? He does sound very confused about his feelings but I would make sure that he''s resolved the religion issue prior to getting engaged so that it doesn''t crop up later again. Sending hugs katkat.

 

[Erin]

Gwen is right (as usual)

He has put the ball back in your court. Now you have to decide whether to give him more time and energy to figure out how important this religious issue is, whether or not it can be resolved, if he can overcome his fear and anxiety, and how future decisions will be made. Or the alternative is to walk away. You KNOW he will never make the decision to walk away. Even if the differences between you are dealbreakers. He will not do it because he doesn''t need to be married to be with you. In his mind, he liked the relationship you guys had with talk about the future but having no real immediate intentions of doing anything about it anytime soon.

I think this is where you come back to him and reiterate THIS is what I want for my life. I want to be married, I want to have a family... I have always been clear about this. Now, I want to make sure You are clear about knowing this because now I''m going to leave you to make whatever decision you feel is necessary.

I guess my point is, do not let him manipulate your feelings into thinking somehow You need to make any decisions. You don''t. You have always been the clear, direct one with specific wants and needs. Period. He, on the other hand, is the one who can''t decide if religion is a dealbreaker or not. Your hands are clean as long as your communication is clear. You are free to continue your life of work and hobbies and friends and family. It is up to him to make rhyme or reason of his feelings. You can''t do this for him.

 

[purrfectpear]

He''s been home for quite a while now.

He "wants" to talk with your dad. Has he called? Is his phone broke? Has he tracked your dad down? Did he forget where daddy lives?

Uh huh.

He "wants" to buy a diamond. Has he purchased one? Is his car not working? Did he forget how to find the jewelry store?

Uh huh.

So what part of his lips flappin'' but his butt not walkin'' did you not understand?

You don''t need our advice, either put up with his crap or not. It''s up to you.

 

[mrscushion]

katkat, we obviously don't have all the information, but something's fishy here. If this religious issue really is that huge that he wasn't able to overcome it previously, how is he / are you going to overcome it now?

Is this REALLY not another huge stalling tactic?

HUGS for you!

 

[RubyCharm]

Date: 5/4/2009 12:55:05 PM
Author: purrfectpear
He's been home for quite a while now.


He 'wants' to talk with your dad. Has he called? Is his phone broke? Has he tracked your dad down? Did he forget where daddy lives?


Uh huh.


He 'wants' to buy a diamond. Has he purchased one? Is his car not working? Did he forget how to find the jewelry store?


Uh huh.


So what part of his lips flappin' but his butt not walkin' did you not understand?

You don't need our advice, either put up with his crap or not. It's up to you.

I agree, especially with the bolded part. KatKat, you probably don't need the advice in this thread, because you are the only one who really knows all the facts and can accurately determine whether he's worth it or not. As much as everyone here tries to help you in a genuine way, the fact that we're making assumptions and forming conclusions based on incomplete information can result in the wrong type of advice for your particular situation.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 5/4/2009 10:37:01 AM
Author: Starset Princess
Gwen is right (as usual)

He has put the ball back in your court. Now you have to decide whether to give him more time and energy to figure out how important this religious issue is, whether or not it can be resolved, if he can overcome his fear and anxiety, and how future decisions will be made. Or the alternative is to walk away. You KNOW he will never make the decision to walk away. Even if the differences between you are dealbreakers. He will not do it because he doesn''t need to be married to be with you. In his mind, he liked the relationship you guys had with talk about the future but having no real immediate intentions of doing anything about it anytime soon.

I think this is where you come back to him and reiterate THIS is what I want for my life. I want to be married, I want to have a family... I have always been clear about this. Now, I want to make sure You are clear about knowing this because now I''m going to leave you to make whatever decision you feel is necessary.

I guess my point is, do not let him manipulate your feelings into thinking somehow You need to make any decisions. You don''t. You have always been the clear, direct one with specific wants and needs. Period. He, on the other hand, is the one who can''t decide if religion is a dealbreaker or not. Your hands are clean as long as your communication is clear. You are free to continue your life of work and hobbies and friends and family. It is up to him to make rhyme or reason of his feelings. You can''t do this for him.

church!

 

[Lane]

Hi all,

I know I''m a little late coming into the thread, but I''ve read it all, and it''s such a compelling story that I couldn''t help but comment. Kat, I absolutely feel for you and what you''re going through, as I''m going through a VERY similar situation myself.

The others are giving extremely heartfelt and great advice, and are absolutely right in commending you on your strength. Since a lot of us here have been in similar situations on this board, we''re all angry at him, and while we all agree with comments like "did he forget how to find the jewellery store?" I think there might be something deeper going on with him if he was unable to carry out his good intentions.

If you listen to some of the actual words he has said, is sounds like he is experiencing a lot of anxiety about this issue, which actually is common for some men AND women. It sounded to me like he had good intentions (he intended to come through for you in time) but panicked at the last minute. If this was or is a pattern in his life, and if he really is miserable/desperate now and wanting to make amends, I would think that he cannot likely do it alone.

He may need to talk to someone professionally trained in how anxiety works, what the triggers are, and how to work through his discomfort if you are to try to make it work. You have unmet needs that deserve to be addressed, and you deserve to know where you stand. He may need help in working out how to get to there. I would recommend a clinical psychologist (focussing on cognitive/behavioural therapy), who can help him work through his indecision, and other issues you''ve alluded to. Even a few sessions for him (or you both together if you decide) might really help. As I said, I''m only suggesting this because it sounds like he had the right intentions, but was unable to follow through. This is indicative of anxiety that has reached the level where it interferes with his life.

I''m just suggesting this as an option that might relieve some of your stress IF you INDEPENDENTLY decide to make any other efforts in his direction. I know it helped me when in a similar boat, and I was very grateful.

Just an idea, and it might help.

My heart goes out to you. I hope you''re doing all right.

 

[Squirrly]

sorry if i''m wrong about this but:
"important religious issues"+living together before marriage much less engagement=?

i don''t really know of anyone who would apparently hold such high religious values but would be willing to live together before marriage much less engagement. it seems rather silly to pick and choose when you''re going to be religious on such a matter. i could be wrong and he''s suddenly gone through a religious transformation and realized how important his religion is to him, but really it just sounds inconsistent. and there''s no room for being inconsistent with someone you love.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 5/6/2009 3:39:36 PM
Author: Squirrly
sorry if i'm wrong about this but:
'important religious issues'+living together before marriage much less engagement=?

i don't really know of anyone who would apparently hold such high religious values but would be willing to live together before marriage much less engagement. it seems rather silly to pick and choose when you're going to be religious on such a matter. i could be wrong and he's suddenly gone through a religious transformation and realized how important his religion is to him, but really it just sounds inconsistent. and there's no room for being inconsistent with someone you love.

Squirrly, this comes across as fairly judgemental. Many people hold religious convictions that are unrelated to living together before marriage. It is not just "picking and choosing"; some people do not see their religious beliefs as being at odds with living together without being married. If you do, that is fine, but please recognize that there are multiple points of view on this.

Kat Kat, it's hard to know what advice to give without knowing what the issue is, but if it is going to continue to be an issue then it is important to get it resolved now. Good luck. *hugs*

 

[katkat]

Well, as usual...I am so greatful for all your input....

I am honestly having difficulty deciding if this is a stall or if it''s legit. 80 percent of me believes it is legit....then theres the dubious 20 percent. Without going into detail ....the religous situation is soooo complex that I cannot even begin to delve into it. However, I will say the situation is "similar" to Greek Orthodox wanting to marry Greek Orthodox. You get the picture without me giving it all away.

In his defense, he has ALWAYS in all our years together suggested this could be a problem. He asked me to look into it which I did. There was no simple answer then and there isn''t now either.
I thought he was past it or had dealt with it...but I was wrong. He wrestled with it and still is. He has suggested we comprimise in some way. He keeps telling me he wants to marry me, wants to have a family with me. But it isn''t as simple as heading to the jewelry store. That much is true.

He was 500 percent wrong for not telling me sooner. In his mind, I think he mostly thought he would ask me despite his concerns. But the chaos of right before his trip plus this inner struggle = hurting the woman he loves.

It is hard to throw away years and years of history. But as I see it, he needs to come up with an iron clad, no fail plan. Otherwise...I''m out. No doubt.

 

[katkat]

Also, the trickiest part right now is instituting the "limited contact" rule. Now that the ice has been broken he asks to see me, texts me. etc. I know I will need to address this gracefully and plan to do so as soon as I feel graceful again

 

[decodelighted]

The day he got on that ship, he already made his decision. Religion won. Sure, he''s having buyer''s remorse ... because there''s P-A-I-N in loss. People will do almost anything, say almost anything in the hopes of making the pain stop.

If I were you -- even if he did talk to your father, ask permission, buy a ring ... I wouldn''t be 100% sure he''d make it down the aisle. He seems too conflicted. Maybe this is one of those times when it just isn''t right -- just can''t come to a compromise.

As much as you wish any of his new "news" was "good news" --- my personal belief is that it sounds bleaker than ever. I am sorry for the drama he''s dragging you through.

You are a bada**, no doubt.

 

[Squirrly]

Date: 5/6/2009 5:21:31 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 5/6/2009 3:39:36 PM

Author: Squirrly, this comes across as fairly judgemental. Many people hold religious convictions that are unrelated to living together before marriage. It is not just 'picking and choosing'; some people do not see their religious beliefs as being at odds with living together without being married. If you do, that is fine, but please recognize that there are multiple points of view on this.

ladypirate, i'm sorry if that came across sounding judgmental, but that was not my intent nor are those my beliefs. i hope you won't think so, so i'm going to try to attempt to clarify

what i was trying to say is that i personally don't know people who would honestly use reasons of religion to not get married who are not also fairly conservative which is why using that reason makes no sense to me. there are many mixed faith and mixed denomination marriages in my family, so at least from what i've seen if the two are really in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together then they do so. i've also seen someone use the "we're of a different religion" excuse to get out of a relationship when in reality he was seeing someone else who was also not of his faith. i am in no way saying that's what's going on here, just using an example of how that has been used in my life. i hope that explination works better!

katkat: part of me hopes he's being sincere, just because i really don't want to believe that he could be so cruel. but from what you've posted, i agree with you that he had plenty of time to address this and it should've been discussed as soon as he realized this was something he was so nervous about. and if this is a problem that bothers him so much before marriage please be absolutely sure that this issue is completely laid to rest and can't come back to haunt you later. sometimes the worst things from the past can be brought into fights

 

[princesss]

Date: 5/6/2009 11:10:03 PM
Author: decodelighted
The day he got on that ship, he already made his decision. Religion won. Sure, he''s having buyer''s remorse ... because there''s P-A-I-N in loss. People will do almost anything, say almost anything in the hopes of making the pain stop.

If I were you -- even if he did talk to your father, ask permission, buy a ring ... I wouldn''t be 100% sure he''d make it down the aisle. He seems too conflicted. Maybe this is one of those times when it just isn''t right -- just can''t come to a compromise.

As much as you wish any of his new ''news'' was ''good news'' --- my personal belief is that it sounds bleaker than ever. I am sorry for the drama he''s dragging you through.

You are a bada**, no doubt.

Deco''s right on the money here. I''m sorry, katkat.

 

[tlh]

Date: 5/7/2009 10:19:59 AM
Author: princesss

Date: 5/6/2009 11:10:03 PM
Author: decodelighted
The day he got on that ship, he already made his decision. Religion won. Sure, he''s having buyer''s remorse ... because there''s P-A-I-N in loss. People will do almost anything, say almost anything in the hopes of making the pain stop.

If I were you -- even if he did talk to your father, ask permission, buy a ring ... I wouldn''t be 100% sure he''d make it down the aisle. He seems too conflicted. Maybe this is one of those times when it just isn''t right -- just can''t come to a compromise.

As much as you wish any of his new ''news'' was ''good news'' --- my personal belief is that it sounds bleaker than ever. I am sorry for the drama he''s dragging you through.

You are a bada**, no doubt.

Deco''s right on the money here. I''m sorry, katkat.

I agree. Religion is either a dealbreaker, or it isn''t. His indecision about it, is still putting you through the ringer. I''d just go ahead and let the healing process start, and if he really wants to marry you, he''ll stop talking about it and do something. HUGS!

 

[icekid]

Date: 5/7/2009 11:51:25 AM
Author: tlh

Date: 5/7/2009 10:19:59 AM

Author: princesss

Date: 5/6/2009 11:10:03 PM

Author: decodelighted

The day he got on that ship, he already made his decision. Religion won. Sure, he''s having buyer''s remorse ... because there''s P-A-I-N in loss. People will do almost anything, say almost anything in the hopes of making the pain stop.


If I were you -- even if he did talk to your father, ask permission, buy a ring ... I wouldn''t be 100% sure he''d make it down the aisle. He seems too conflicted. Maybe this is one of those times when it just isn''t right -- just can''t come to a compromise.


As much as you wish any of his new ''news'' was ''good news'' --- my personal belief is that it sounds bleaker than ever. I am sorry for the drama he''s dragging you through.


You are a bada**, no doubt.

Deco''s right on the money here. I''m sorry, katkat.

I agree. Religion is either a dealbreaker, or it isn''t. His indecision about it, is still putting you through the ringer. I''d just go ahead and let the healing process start, and if he really wants to marry you, he''ll stop talking about it and do something. HUGS!

I absolutely agree with the lovely ladies. This religion thing just does not make much sense to me, to be honest. After seven years, is it really possible to not have figured this situation out? Why continue the relationship for this long if it was not a clear YES this woman is worth marrying outside of my religion??

 

[heb1976]

katkat, I just finished reading your entire thread and I''m so sorry you have to go through this. This whole, convoluted experience seems to have become more complicated that at first understood. It seems to me all the discussions about religion and the lack of proposal in seven years is possibly due to his wanting you to convert? Are you guy’s different branches or denominations of the same religion or completely different religions? I just get the feeling that he wants you to change or he can''t marry you. I agree with the OP''s that religion is a deal breaker. If you are strong in your beliefs and he in his then maybe this isn''t meant to be. When children come along religious differences are exacerbated tenfold. Your in my thoughts and be sure to keep us updated on how your doing!

(((HUGS)))

 

[FrekeChild]

Katkat. You are still a bad@$$. Period.

I am so....indignant...for you! Why should you give him an hour (heck, even a minute) of your time when he''s making it obvious that he''s still not MAKING A CONCRETE DECISION.

Does he KNOW how EASY it is to PICK UP A PHONE AND CALL YOUR DAD?!

Does he KNOW how EASY it is to GO BUY A RING?!

To quote Yoda and Luke''s mini conversation:

"Luke: All right, I''ll give it a try.
Yoda: No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."

There always seems to be this eternal battle between the heart and the mind of many LIW (and truly, people in general), between saying "love is enough" and "love isn''t enough". I think in your situation your heart is saying "But he loves me, and I love him" and your mind is saying "He had a concrete deadline. He missed that deadline. He doesn''t get another chance."

Frankly, I''d go with your brain. He doesn''t know what he wants. As Yoda said, "There is no try." I could freaking go out and buy an engagement ring right now, talk to your dad and be on your doorstop asking you to marry me before this guy--and I''m in New Mexico, have no idea where you are, etc. He doesn''t want to "do" it. I swear it really doesn''t take as much effort as this guy is having you believe.

I don''t know if you can tell, but as I''ve been writing, I went from indignant to POed.

I am so angry for you.

No matter how much he loves you, no matter how much you love him, he can''t pull through for you. Something is holding him back, don''t let it hold you back too.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 5/6/2009 5:21:31 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 5/6/2009 3:39:36 PM
Author: Squirrly
sorry if i''m wrong about this but:
''important religious issues''+living together before marriage much less engagement=?

i don''t really know of anyone who would apparently hold such high religious values but would be willing to live together before marriage much less engagement. it seems rather silly to pick and choose when you''re going to be religious on such a matter. i could be wrong and he''s suddenly gone through a religious transformation and realized how important his religion is to him, but really it just sounds inconsistent. and there''s no room for being inconsistent with someone you love.

Squirrly, this comes across as fairly judgemental. Many people hold religious convictions that are unrelated to living together before marriage. It is not just ''picking and choosing''; some people do not see their religious beliefs as being at odds with living together without being married. If you do, that is fine, but please recognize that there are multiple points of view on this.

Kat Kat, it''s hard to know what advice to give without knowing what the issue is, but if it is going to continue to be an issue then it is important to get it resolved now. Good luck. *hugs*

I think we''re talking apples and oranges here. Religion is the institution in which beliefs of a higher being are practiced, they typically come with strict guidelines regarding how one should live. Spirituality is a belief in something bigger than oneself. Most organized religions do fall in line with what Squirrly is saying, and they are a totally different beast than spirituality. I don''t think she''s being judgemental, I think she''s pointing out that most people who ascribe to a specific religion (especially Western religions) believe living together, and all that encompasses, is sinful. A spiritual person, someone who believes in a higher power, might not agree, but said person likely wouldn''t participate in the customs of a religion that believes this to be true.

Kat, I hope for your sake that this isn''t more pomp and circumstance. It seems that you really lvoe him, I hope he loves you enough to resolve all of this to your liking.

 

[Vani]

KatKat, I''m so sorry you''re going through this.

I have been through a similar situation ending previous relationships. My honest advice would be to cut all contact for a decent period of time (ie MONTHS). Whether his issues (eg religious differences) are valid or not is irrelevant - the point is they are HIS ISSUES and he needs to deal with them on his own, without holding up your life. He is lonely, missing you, and the constant texting/emailing is just his way of dealing with that, nothing more.

I would tell him not to have any contact with you from now on, and that you will be dating others as soon as you feel ready to move on. Enforce it. Don''t reply to texts or emails or letters or requests for meetings. In my mind, the only contact I would accept from him in future is him standing on your doorstep with a ring and a wedding date. I wouldn''t want to marry a man who wasn''t 100% sure he wanted to marry me, and I don''t think you should either.

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Katkat

After reading through all 8 pages of this thread, i can''t help feel that you made the right decision in the first place to walk away.

I don''t know anything abouth the whole religion thing but I honestly feel that he is trying to lead you on until he is finally comfortable with the idea of letting you go, stick to your guns, stay true to your word and remember WHY you walked in the first place.

 

[Squirrly]

Date: 5/8/2009 10:51:05 PM
Author: KimberlyH
I think we''re talking apples and oranges here. Religion is the institution in which beliefs of a higher being are practiced, they typically come with strict guidelines regarding how one should live. Spirituality is a belief in something bigger than oneself. Most organized religions do fall in line with what Squirrly is saying, and they are a totally different beast than spirituality. I don''t think she''s being judgemental, I think she''s pointing out that most people who ascribe to a specific religion (especially Western religions) believe living together, and all that encompasses, is sinful. A spiritual person, someone who believes in a higher power, might not agree, but said person likely wouldn''t participate in the customs of a religion that believes this to be true.

Merci beaucoup kimberly! can i hire you to be my personal translator? i''d get in so much less trouble that way

(i hope this posts cause at least on my end i''m getting lots of server errors tonight

)

and any updates? i hope all is going well for you kat

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 5/10/2009 11:12:59 PM
Author: Squirrly

Date: 5/8/2009 10:51:05 PM
Author: KimberlyH
I think we''re talking apples and oranges here. Religion is the institution in which beliefs of a higher being are practiced, they typically come with strict guidelines regarding how one should live. Spirituality is a belief in something bigger than oneself. Most organized religions do fall in line with what Squirrly is saying, and they are a totally different beast than spirituality. I don''t think she''s being judgemental, I think she''s pointing out that most people who ascribe to a specific religion (especially Western religions) believe living together, and all that encompasses, is sinful. A spiritual person, someone who believes in a higher power, might not agree, but said person likely wouldn''t participate in the customs of a religion that believes this to be true.

Merci beaucoup kimberly! can i hire you to be my personal translator? i''d get in so much less trouble that way

(i hope this posts cause at least on my end i''m getting lots of server errors tonight

)

and any updates? i hope all is going well for you kat

De nada. LP is one levelheaded lady, I''m sure she just misunderstood. I was a bit convoluted in my explanation, though. Too many words!

I had lots of error messages yesterday as well.

Kat, how are you? What''s going on? Any forward movement in any direction?

 

[trillionaire]

*bump* for updates!

How are you holding up, KatKat?

 

[trillionaire]

Paging KatKat...

How ya doin'' over there?