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Help! Drilled but natural color FCD

pokerface

pokerface

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
896
I know that laser drilling is generally frowned upon by the PS community, but would anyone make an exception for a rare color FCD? I know I need more info from the vendor (is there also fracture filling, are there durability issues, where is the drill located, etc), but would anyone go down this path for the right price? I can't imagine that I would consider a drilled "normal" diamond but the natural color is giving me some pause. Surely all the value of the color cannot be eliminated by one drill? How would the price difference between a drilled and not drilled FCD compare to the difference for a "regular" diamond? Why would anyone drill a FCD in the first place when even included ones sells for high prices? Is there any way that laser drilling would have increased the value rather than decreased? After getting more info from the vendor, would it make sense to see if a recut would be possible? For reference, the price is listed for less than 1/10th of the value of a similar diamond with no drill. All help appreciated!
 
Personally, I wouldn't be interested in any stone with inclusions drilled out.
The rarest color, and the lowest price wouldn't change my mind.

As always, YMMV.
 
@kenny Thanks for your opinion. Can you go into a bit more detail? I get being a purist, but is there not SOME distinction for the natural color? Even if you would not be interested in a drilled FCD, are you able to make a guess how this treatment alone would impact fair market value?
 
pokerface said:
I know that laser drilling is generally frowned upon by the PS community, but would anyone make an exception for a rare color FCD?
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Anyone? slight maybe. I think.
pokerface said:
I know I need more info from the vendor (is there also fracture filling, are there durability issues, where is the drill located, etc),
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This is key.
One drill tunnel?
Multiple drills?

pokerface said:
but would anyone go down this path for the right price?
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Never say never - but a slight chance I guess. Depends on the overall look as it is now.

pokerface said:
I can't imagine that I would consider a drilled "normal" diamond but the natural color is giving me some pause. Surely all the value of the color cannot be eliminated by one drill?
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‘ Value’ and whose/what interpretation of it is where I mostly bow out of the discussion.
You seem positive the color is natural - so a lab report exists? But not sure about further clarity treatment? GIA won’t give a report on filled? I think?

pokerface said:
How would the price difference between a drilled and not drilled FCD compare to the difference for a "regular" diamond?
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:shrug:
pokerface said:
Why would anyone drill a FCD in the first place when even included ones sells for high prices?
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very good question.

pokerface said:
Is there any way that laser drilling would have increased the value rather than decreased?
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Same as above(s). If it did - the vendor would charge that way?
pokerface said:
After getting more info from the vendor, would it make sense to see if a recut would be possible? For reference, the price is listed for less than 1/10th of the value of a similar diamond with no drill. All help appreciated!
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I would wonder why wouldn’t a loose diamond seller already have it recut themselves, if it made simple decision easy sense?


Have you seen the diamond in person? Do you seem to think the color is as advertised at least? Is it vintage? Not a vendor vendor, but an individual? Add more intrigue and improbability and it’s a bigger bust, or a bigger iconic elusive PS holy grail find.

Is this fun money we are talking about? Is it an exciting adventure? Is this your typical personality ?
If it is - go for it.
But I’d think if that were true - that person might typically have forged ahead already without asking the questions here. And told the tale during or afterwards. The good and bad with a smile of the adventure memory.

Other than that -plus not seeing any pictures nor knowing the purchase price- I won’t prompt anyone that this is a good idea, that you might end up with something of greater ‘value’ (however you define that term) than what you purchased it for.
Other than if the experience of the journey is what you value. If anything beyond other than that is a plus to you.

I’d love to see the listing photos - if you choose to share
And I would definitely be interested to hear what you choose to do.
 
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I can't share listing photos, at least for the time being, without outing the vendor- which without a doubt is known to the PS community as a reputable source.

The diamond will come with a GGTL certificate showing one drill and no fracture filling. It is my understanding that GGTL is highly regarded and that they have a new lab specially devoted to FCD testing. (https://www.gemstone.org/news/ggtl-...s-belgium-lab-for-fancy-color-diamond-testing) I was told there are no durability issues and no long-term change in appearance are possible.

The stone is indeed vintage and I was told that the diamond likely underwent treatment in the 80s, apparently when laser drilling was new and seen more as a polishing innovation than a treatment. The drill is on the pavilion and is too deep to be polished out. I'm guessing a recut would be out of the question as well.

I definitely understand why laser drilled diamonds are frowned upon in general, and especially when we are talking about non-FCDs, where you are altering one of the key characteristics of the diamond grade. While of course the 4 Cs matter in FCDs, like colored stones in general, I imagine that color is king. For reference, I have no interest in a COLOR-treated FCD, but this seems different.

I guess never say never, but I find it hard to believe I would spend over $10k on a FCD just because 10k exceeds the price of my ering, and I would need to spend in excess of that amount to buy a similar stone without the drill.

With the GGTL cert thrown in, I now estimate this diamond at 1/20th of the price it would be otherwise without the one drill. We are talking under $1000 for a good size, attractive, rare color FCD with a cert. $1000 is usually pocket change in the world of FCD, but if the value is essentially zero, I would prefer to save my money. I know value can be subjective and I understand why people are hesitant to make a guess, but I just can't find any info on fair pricing for this particular situation.

If anyone has additional insight, I'd appreciate it.
 
I cant answer a lot of your questions but, for me, this would be a "mine clean" issue. I for one could buy a laser drilled FCD if
the color was something I really wanted (and I couldn't afford one that was not laser drilled), the drilling was stable, and the
price was right. I can completely understand the other approach though...for some, laser drilled is not mine clean and they
would not own one.

I think you have to figure out how you feel about the stone knowing that it is laser drilled. Can you love and appreciate it for
what it is or would it always nag at you that it is laser drilled?

I do believe that the clarity can be raised if the stone is graded after the laser drilling takes place...don't quote me on that though.
I'm no grading expert but it only makes sense to me.
 
pokerface said:
@kenny Thanks for your opinion. Can you go into a bit more detail? I get being a purist, but is there not SOME distinction for the natural color? Even if you would not be interested in a drilled FCD, are you able to make a guess how this treatment alone would impact fair market value?
Click to expand...

Sorry, but having no interest I have never looked into values.
 
To me the value is zero.

To the vendor, the value is the price he's trying to sell it for and the price he is willing to accept.

If you're looking for a certain color, maybe try for a lab fancy diamond?

I think if you found a desirably-colored drilled FCD mind-clean, you wouldn't be asking for input from others...
 
I don't have any interest in lab stones in general.

The reason I am asking opinions here is because the stone was mistakenly listed without the drill being disclosed. Only after purchase did the vendor tell me, and I now have to decide if I want to keep the stone and have the vendor ship it, or get my money back. Again, this is a reputable vendor and I believe an honest mistake - I did indeed recognize that the price seemed too good to be true, but didn't want to sit and wait for someone else to get lucky.

I am not sure if I would have considered the stone had the drill been disclosed. It's kind of the same problem I'm having now - I like natural stones and fair pricing. In a FCD, I definitely wouldn't want a lab stone or color-treated stone, but I'm on the fence here because the stone and color are both natural, and I cannot find any info on fair market value.

It seems to me that if pricing for a single drill FCD is anywhere near the pricing for a single drill non-FCD, that I would still be getting a fair price. If anything, I feel like drilled FCDs should be discounted less than non-FCDs because of the natural color factor. But I can't find any information. I think "mind clean" is a totally fair perspective, but I also think it is reasonable to be asking the questions I'm asking here.
 
This changes some things for me, with the additional info. Somewhat.

It’s under 1000k
You already bought it, (even though you did so without knowing about the drill) I assume there’s a decent return policy - you’ll just have to pay freight.

I ‘think’ mind clean in this situation for me would require it being seen in person. Because it’s all about the color. To naked eye. I’d concede with paying the freight - if in the same country and no other fees upon return.
how much did I really like it’s color in person is a sizeable factor……
Edited to add: And I’d struggle with as well wanting a GIA report to agree with the other report contingent to keeping it. The vendor agreeing to refund me at least 50% of the GIA fees if it didn’t agree within an agreed parameter.


But - since you originally snapped it up in thinking you were getting lucky/a deal….
I think that in itself lead me to guess there truly is not a mind clean option for you in this stone, ultimately.
 
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Just as laser drilled regular has very little value, the same goes for FCDs. I would not even consider it. If the vendor was mistaken or I was only told later, I would opt to return and get a refund.
 
Well, I think it could still be a good deal, but I cannot find any comparison. Usually natural FCDs just aren't drilled. Even if this stone weren't drilled and instead had a large, black inclusion, I would think the listed price would be at least double. But would I be considering a FCD with a large, black inclusion? No. Again, just an unusual set of circumstances here.

@chrono It's my understanding that a regular diamond with a single drill would be about half price, not essentially valueless. I'm happy to be corrected, but can you point me to any articles?
 
OK, this is a personal POV on the subject. At UNDER 1k I allow myself to make "allowances". If this was my ultimate dream of a purple diamond with a beautiful cut and no boogers that I could see that I was going to set into a ring a wear and never sell? Sure! I would ask for a best price partial refund as it wasn't as advertised and see what happens, but I would probably keep it. I don't personally bother to think of relatively inexpensive niche pieces for resell value as more often than not, you'll never get it. I buy for personal enjoyment.
 
Hi Folks!!
I am kinda crazy busy- so I haven't read the entire thread....a few thoughts in general.
Laser drilling is a huge turn off to the vast majority of buyers. It makes a stone far less saleable on the market- and obviously, that will affect the price.
Personally, I avoid them at all costs for this reason.
I've never seen a drilled stone where the drilling would affect durability - and I've seen stones that looked like they were used for laser drilling target practice:)
I did notice this statement
pokerface said:
The diamond will come with a GGTL certificate showing one drill and no fracture filling. It is my understanding that GGTL is highly regarded and that they have a new lab specially devoted to FCD testing.
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No. No No
GIA is the only widely recognized lab in the US. In Europe and Asia, I understand the market is different.
From my perspective:
I would advise against laser drilled Fancy COlored Diamonds, and those not carrying GIA lab reports.
If it's a super rare stone.....maybe I'd see it differently
 
@Rockdiamond I tagged you because of your participation in this thread: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-laser-drilled-diamond.266675/

I can see that DBL has indeed offered drilled FCDs in the past, so I would be curious as to your thoughts on what a fair price would be compared to a similar stone without treatment.
(http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php?search[terms]=r7754&search[mode]=any)

I know that GIA is more well-known in the US, but surely you are not disputing that GGTL is reputable? Here's a thread regarding an auction at Sotheby's with a GGTL cert: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/31-carat-no-heat-sapphire-on-sotheby’s-for-20-000.256278/#post-4725444

Here's a thread with GGTL and Gubelin in the same breath: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...hon-and-old-diamond-ring.240285/#post-4327247

And from the article I linked about GGTL:

"In a time with colored melee diamonds being more and more polluted by treated and particularly synthetic diamonds, the screening of such goods has become of utmost importance. GGTL Laboratories Liechtenstein – founded in 1996 and directed by Dr. Thomas Hainschwang – is one of the very few laboratories to offer full testing for colored melee diamonds in all colors, sizes and shapes. We will emphasize our leading market position in the testing of such colored melee diamonds with the new GGTL Belgium laboratory being especially well equipped to tackle large quantities of colored melee diamonds.

The fully equipped GGTL Belgium laboratory will be offering a range of services for diamonds, including the following analysis reports (for the time being no grading reports):

- Authenticity and treatment reports for colored melee diamonds (in all colors, shapes and sizes).
- Authenticity and treatment reports for colored diamonds (single stones).
Authenticity and treatment reports for highly complex colored diamonds with radiation-related colors (yellow-green, green, bluish green to greenish blue) – so-called “GR1 Reports”.
- Authenticity and treatment reports for colorless to near-colorless diamonds (single stones)."

That doesn't sound like BS to me, but what do I know? Anyway, would it make a difference if I insisted on a GIA cert instead?
 
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Just my opinion, but if I were in this situation, I would return the stone for a full refund. When a seller fails to disclose something as important as drilling, I would lose confidence in the whole transaction.

Just last year I bought a stone that was gorgeous in photos, but in person had an obvious inclusion right under the table. (I had asked pointed questions of the seller regarding eye-cleanliness and asked for zoomed-in photos which in retrospect she dodged a bit). It would have been a fair price had the inclusion not been visible. I returned it and had to fuss a few times to get the refund, less shipping costs, and was very glad to put the experience behind me. I'll never buy from her again because the trust is gone.

That said, I hope you follow your heart, whichever way it leads you!
 
This is all very good avdvice.
I just don't have the same compunction. I am mind clean to a point, but more so a pragmatist. If it isn't super expensive, they're willing to give you an additional fair discount, and it's pretty, why not keep it? Will you ever be able to truly consider another FCD of the same caliber and size? You didn't buy with the intention of investment in any event. This could be a unique opportunity and it still is a natural specimen. Depending on the outcome, you didn't overpay for it.
Look at it for what it is. A interesting bauble. Let it be a bauble.
Whose to judge what is acceptable but you?
After rolling that around for a bit, you'll know your answer.
 
There's no info on FMV because drilling FCDs is not industry practice.

FCD sellers lose money when FCDs are drilled.

You have a one-off, and there may be a few other one-offs, but there is no market, thus no market data.

Vendor misrepresented the item and listed it at a price you found attractive enough to pay, attractive enough to you based on color that you are still willing to consider keeping in spite of the non-disclosed drilling -- that's the market value -- only you can decide if it's fair.
 
pokerface said:
Tagging @yssie because she seemed to have less compunction about drilling, or at least she did eight years ago: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/laser-drill-hole-comment-in-gia-report.191681/

Still just looking for any info on fair market value.
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I just saw this thread! So my opinion is the same as it used to be: I’d rather have a visually attractive stone that’s been drilled and bleached than a stone with a big black bogey. Even if it’s “worth more” (ie. Retails for more) untreated, with big black bogey intact.

I agree with @marymm and @ItsMainelyYou, “value” is a nebulous prerequisite when there aren’t any comparisons for this particular situation. You won’t be able to resell it for what you paid. At least not in the short term. But that’s true of any diamond. Long term, who knows? Odds of retaining resale value are poorer, with a laser drilled stone, but how much poorer… Really depends on your risk tolerance. Same story for lab diamonds and folks are choosing those without reservations these days.

For $1000, if you know you wouldn’t be able to get this colour without treatment, and it’s not a colour that labs come in (or you aren’t comfy with labs)… In the grand scheme of things the absolute worst case is you’re $1000 out of pocket. As far as losses go that’s a pretty tight constraint…

I’ll put it this way: If it was right for my project I’d buy it. :bigsmile:
 
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Can someone save me the time to read the entire thread and give me specifics?
Size, color, price, etc

pokerface said:
I can see that DBL has indeed offered drilled FCDs in the past, so I would be curious as to your thoughts on what a fair price would be compared to a similar stone without treatment.
(http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php?search[terms]=r7754&search[mode]=any)
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Thank you so much for finding that- I totally forgot about that stone- and it's a great point prover......
It was a "really cheap" 11 carat diamond that "bluffed" blue. Talk about "one of a kind" stones!!
That is a textbook example of a stone I'd overlook the drilling on.
If it was a 1ct Fancy Light yellow cushion with a drill????
That would have been a totally different story.

As far as GGTL: I'm located in the US. I've never had a stone with a GGTL report offered to me.
Never. GGTL doesn't even have a US location.
In my world, anything other than a GIA report on an FCD is basically toilet paper.
But the world is changing. What country are you located in?
 
Thanks, @yssie. This is a half carat rare color FCD for under $1000 with a cert included. I find it SO hard to believe its value could diminish further. Both irradiated and lab diamonds in this color are more expensive than what I'd be paying. I understand why someone with a 100% mind clean mindset would not be interested, but like @ItsMainelyYou, I consider myself to be a pragmatist. I like to think that most of my gems have at least retained their value, even if I bought them for my pleasure alone. Even if most PS-ers wouldn't bite, is it really a BAD deal?
 
Pokerface, IMO you are being played by this vendor as a sucker.
 
What color is the diamond ???
 
kenny said:
Pokerface, IMO you are being played by this vendor as a sucker.
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Good thing I'm not a sucker. I am not going to go through with the transaction unless I'm happy about it. This is a longstanding recommended PS vendor, which I am trying to not out by providing too many details.
 
kenny said:
Pokerface, IMO you are being played by this vendor as a sucker.
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…Because the vendor identified a mistake in the listing (before shipping), alerted Pokerface (before shipping), and offered to give Pokerface her money back in full if she decided against going through with her purchase?

I’m not seeing anything sketchy here at all. Mistakes happen. Vendor appears to be handing their mistake forthrightly and fairly.

A GIA report would be ideal but for $1000, which is pittance in the FCD world, how much does Pokerface really care… That’s the question.
 
In general- not specifically related to this thread per se:
I’ve never seen a reputable vendor ( PS or other) offer FCDs with GGTL lab report. I’d never heard of the lab till today. But as I said- the world is changing. Live and learn. Maybe I’m behind the times.
Stating a diamonds color would, in no way “out” a vendor- but it would allow a far more informed discussion. Basically a useless discussion without knowing at least a few specifics.
Carry on!
 
Rockdiamond said:
In general- not specifically related to this thread per se:
I’ve never seen a reputable vendor ( PS or other) offer FCDs with GGTL lab report. I’d never heard of the lab till today. But as I said- the world is changing. Live and learn. Maybe I’m behind the times.
Stating a diamonds color would, in no way “out” a vendor- but it would allow a far more informed discussion. Basically a useless discussion without knowing at least a few specifics.
Carry on!
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Hmm. Okay that’s fair. If we don’t trust that the colour is natural, or that the stone hasn’t been treated in other ways, that’s a bigger concern.

I’ve not heard of GGTL either but my ignorance on that front should mean nothing to anyone. Lol.
 
I think you’re understating your experience and knowledge @yssie
I would, as a vendor, and in no relation to this thread advise anyone not to consider any lab which isn’t very well known. I’ve developed a newfound respect for IGI- based on Lab Grown Diamond reports. But short of that, it’s GIA or the highway. And even considering IGI’s improved standing- on the case of a natural diamond, it’s ONLY GIA
 
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