Help! Drilled but natural color FCD

[Rfisher]

@Rfisher - fair point- many photos are distinctive.
But I'm not asking for that. How about "what color is this diamond"?
How could knowing the color out the vendor?

I figured tiny changes in color perception of intensity & any modifiers the vendor chose to label it as would make any assumptions/answers on your part wildly swinging in a ballpark you wouldn’t willingly opinion on - and still wouldn’t actually answer OP’s questions…..

 

[Rockdiamond]

True, without a lot more info, any answers will be estimates.
Yet, knowing the claimed color will add valuable context

 

[Rfisher]

Sounds good to me

Obviously from past statements it’s not yellow or brown.

 

[yssie]

GGTL is a fine company. I consider them to be reliable.

That said, your questions here don’t seem to be a matter of the facts, correct? GGTL reported that its a natural diamond, it’s a certain weight, dimensions, it’s drilled, and not filled. inspected on a certain date. That sort of thing. None of this seems to be in debate.

The thing is, reputable or not, in the US having this report doesn’t help with primary sale or resale in any way, because the lab has such limited mind share. Even if it happened to be a well-known lab amongst FCD collectors - which, from David’s responses that’s not the case - a drilled FCD being sold for $1000 isn’t a collector item.

For a vendor choosing which lab to send a stone to, given the associated out of pocket costs (vs. getting a stone that’s already got some report) - choosing an obscure lab that the market doesn’t value makes no sense. Unless the market wherever this vendor is based is different or the vendor deals in other goods and doesn’t know any better.

So the fact that the vendor recommended GGTL is… Well, it begs the question. There could be a perfectly reasonable answer but OP won’t know without asking that question.

Not a lot. Some. I do know Dr. Hainschwang personally.

 

[Rockdiamond]

For a vendor choosing which lab to send a stone to, given the associated out of pocket costs (vs. getting a stone that’s already got some report) - choosing an obscure lab that the market doesn’t value makes no sense.

Thank you for perfectly expressing my concern, and better than I could have
It's really not about GGTL.
It's about why would a vendor even offer anything other than GIA?
Maybe there's a great reason....
But after so many years of warning people against sellers who are offering EGL or other sub par reports in a deceitful manner....I guess it's become a habit to be skeptical

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Cool thread.

tl;dr: Cannot decide before you have a report in hand to verify that the color is natural, and there is only one drill.

Subjective opinion: Totally ok to buy an imperfect rock if the price is fair. Understood that the problem is we are unable to judge price based on fair market value, due to there being no market. But if you know that you could never own a natural, non-drilled FCD with the rest of the desired specs, and the drill doesn’t bother you, then you have some idea of the you-market-value.

Objective question: If this diamond is selling at 1/10th to 1/20th the cost of a non-drilled FCD, and said FCD is truly rare, is it so tiny that there is literally no way for a cutter to chop the thing in two and sell the two pieces for significantly more than the price you paid? I genuinely don’t know how much diamond could be saved, but notwithstanding the fact that the drill would probably result in waste during a re-cut, some colors fetch thousands of dollars for 2 millimeters.

More details: We need to know the color. Cherry red? Neon pink? Blaze orange that could never be mistaken for brown? Solid royal blue with no green or grey tones? Color-changing parti?

 

[Rfisher]

True, without a lot more info, any answers will be estimates.
Yet, knowing the claimed color will add valuable context

Can we play hypothetical?
I won’t link the stone so you can comment and not break the trademember forum rules.

I’m looking at an just south of .50ct Fancy Green radiant, top down completely eye clean. GIA. No modifiers.
Almost 20k is the published listing price.
From a PS “known” vendor.


If it had been drilled once thru the pavilion - but everything else very similar- what would your educated ballpark guess be at its FMV worth?

 

[Karl_K]

I’m looking at an just south of .50ct Fancy Green radiant, top down completely eye clean. GIA. No modifiers.
Almost 20k is the published listing price.
From a PS “known” vendor.

The problem with playing that game is that a green without a GIA report saying natural origin for the color is 1/10 even 1/20 the price or lower.

 

[Rfisher]

The problem with playing that game is that a green without a GIA report saying natural origin for the color is 1/10 the price or lower.

The stone I am giving stats for is not hypothetical. It’s a live listing.
“Everything else very similar”
So we are to assume both have GIA report stating natural.
It’s hypothetical situation to answer the OP’s question of if everything else is similar - what’s the ballpark FMV if it was drilled once.

 

[yssie]

So to answer one question I had earlier - laser drilling (in D-Z at least) doesn’t (didn’t in 2012) limit GIA clarity to I1 or lower. Here’s a 1.11 H SI2 marquise with laser drill hole:
GIA 1142498546

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

 

[yssie]

Too late to edit - better example, D SI2 from 2017:

1.28ct D SI2 Pear Diamond

This is a great 1.28ct D SI2 Pear Brilliant Diamond. Beautiful cut and completely colorless in color.

www.diamondsbylauren.com

I’m seeing SI1s with the laser drill hole clarity characteristic noted as well.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Something I’ve always loved about trading FCD’s……the actual appearance means so much when considering value.
Can anyone spot the difference between a VVS1 and a VS1 naked eye?
Or how about a D/IF versus and E/VS1 at half the price?
Thats always seemed rather crazy to me.
With FCD’s the actual appearance really effects value. Especially in super rare colors like pure green.
$20k for a pure GIA graded natural 1/2 ct sounds cheap to begin with!

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I had one experience with Yuketil of ??. He is recommended here often. I went to his website and saw a white diamond that was priced so very well that I called immediately to find out more. When I spoke to Yuketeil he sort of chuckled and said the diamond was laser drilled. It was not in the listing nor was it changed after I said I was not interested. I put this out here because even recommended vendors do not disclose all the info until you call. So Poker face. don't always think it is a mistake on the part of the vendor. My 2 cents.

Annette

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

I cannot find any info on fair market value.

Because there is no market. No one with knowledge would willingly buy it. You should return it. You will never be able to sell it. I know you say that doesn’t matter, because that’s not why you buy, but every time we consumers allow the trade to sell us their boo-boos, the greater fool theory in action, it encourages that behaviour to continue.

On the other hand, if you love it, and are proceeding with full knowledge, ok. I have certainly made mistakes in my buying, but I do try to constantly improve my process.

 

[pokerface]

Because there is no market. No one with knowledge would willingly buy it. You should return it. You will never be able to sell it. Go try to sell it or pawn it, and see what happens if you disclose the true facts.

There IS a market for laser drilled diamonds. People buy them, just not most people on PS. There is a FMV for a drilled non-FCD, even if it is much lower than non-drilled, and not something you personally would buy, and that value is not zero. Though there are not enough drilled FCDs to establish FMV, I think logic dictates that value is also not zero.

I have gained a lot of info just in the course of this thread and I am still considering going through with the transaction (only if the report pans out). I have been on PS for over 10 years and I think it fair to say therefore that there is at least one person with knowledge who may willing make this purchase. At the end of the day, the only person who needs to be happy here is me, and as I have stated repeatedly, I wouldn't be buying this stone (or any stone) with the plan to sell it.

 

[canuk-gal]

There IS a market for laser drilled diamonds. People buy them, just not most people on PS. There is a FMV for a drilled non-FCD, even if it is much lower than non-drilled, and not something you personally would buy, and that value is not zero. Though there are not enough drilled FCDs to establish FMV, I think logic dictates that value is also not zero.

I have gained a lot of info just in the course of this thread and I am still considering going through with the transaction (only if the report pans out). I have been on PS for over 10 years and I think it fair to say therefore that there is at least one person with knowledge who may willing make this purchase. At the end of the day, the only person who needs to be happy here is me, and as I have stated repeatedly, I wouldn't be buying this stone (or any stone) with the plan to sell it.

I think a lot of people have. I am grateful for these kinds of discussions!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Because there is no market

I totally get how you could feel this way. Reading PS- the passion we feel for diamonds……it can give one a slanted viewpoint.

People buy “frozen spit”, drilled, filled, horribly cut, and plenty of undesirable stones.
Generally speaking- if a consumer does even a small amount of research, it will affect their buying habits.
But it’s likely the vast majority of diamonds sold are to people who haven’t

 

[Rfisher]

Something I’ve always loved about trading FCD’s……the actual appearance means so much when considering value.
Can anyone spot the difference between a VVS1 and a VS1 naked eye?
Or how about a D/IF versus and E/VS1 at half the price?
Thats always seemed rather crazy to me.
With FCD’s the actual appearance really effects value. Especially in super rare colors like pure green.
$20k for a pure GIA graded natural 1/2 ct sounds cheap to begin with!

The 20k natural Green GIA 1/2ct being used as an example is a VVS2.
But point taken.

Green Diamonds: Shop Natural Loose Green Diamond | Leibish

LEIBISH specializes in Natural Fancy Green Diamonds & Green Diamond Jewelry. Discover our collection of fancy color diamonds.

www.leibish.com

There’s the caveat.
The appearance as a whole (like antique cuts) is an intangible but very real factor in pricing.
Comparing apples to apples for FMV comparisons is hard to do.
Just knowing the color of the stone in question, and the shape and more, even if it gets GIA report, couldnt really help the original questions if we didn’t get to ‘see’ it.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I've been following this very interesting thread... without much to contribute, unfortunately. But @Rfisher's last post got me thinking about an issue that continues to vex me. It's slightly O/T, so please indulge me. That FCD has everything going for it with regard to color and clarity. It's a pure, saturated green (so rare!) and super clean. Good size too for a green. Yet the cut is an absolute atrocity. There's so much light leakage... I mean, I think I could have cut that stone better. The color is suffering... the brilliance is suffering. Why would one ever entrust such a rarity to a sub-par lapidary? Or are there other factors at play here? Could the lap have been trying to avoid a major inclusion or cluster of blemishes while cutting? What could be the reasoning behind such a blunder? That stone would be worth much than $19k otherwise. I'm almost pained by this. lol

 

[YadaYadaYada]

OMG, just saw this thread tonight and read all the way through to find a cliffhanger!

Pokerface, if you end up keeping this diamond and feel up to sharing, we would love to see it

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

Exactly my point. Until the consumer says no more, the greater fool theory will continue.

I totally get how you could feel this way. Reading PS- the passion we feel for diamonds……it can give one a slanted viewpoint.

People buy “frozen spit”, drilled, filled, horribly cut, and plenty of undesirable stones.
Generally speaking- if a consumer does even a small amount of research, it will affect their buying habits.
But it’s likely the vast majority of diamonds sold are to people who haven’t

 

[pokerface]

Exactly my point. Until the consumer says no more, the greater fool theory will continue.

Is there a reason you feel like it's okay to be mind-blowingly rude to me here? Does it seem to you like I understand what this diamond is or that I don't? There has not been one person on this thread who has been able to explain to me why a natural, FCD with a single drill should rightly sell for significantly less money than a lab or irradiated diamond, and at a fraction of the price of a drilled non-FCD. Even if you personally are not interested in lab or irradiated diamonds (I know I'm not!) the answer can't just be that lab and irradiated diamonds are also worthless.

Consider this quote from @CaptAubrey taken from an earlier linked thread:

In truth, the trade''s historical approach to laser drilling has not been distinguished by either logic or consistency.

Lasers are now routinely used for the shaping of rough--quite often to remove unwanted inclusions. No one thinks this process requires disclosure. So:

Laser + removal of external inclusion = no treatment, no disclosure
Laser + removal of internal inclusion = treatment, mandatory disclosure

One difference is that laser-drilled diamonds are then acid boiled in order to bleach the inclusion. But... virtually all diamonds are acid boiled after faceting to clean them. And if there happens to be a dark inclusion that reaches the surface because it was exposed during faceting, or because it connects to a surface-reaching feather, the acid boiling will bleach that inclusion or remove it entirely (leaving behind a pit). So:

Acid boiling + surface-reaching inclusion as a result of faceting = bleached inclusion = no treatment, no disclosure
Acid boiling + surface-reaching inclusion as a result of laser drilling = bleached inclusion = treatment, mandatory disclosure.

The reality is that we''re where we currently are not because of any logical progression but because, during the 1980s, certain elements in the media turned laser drilling into a "gotcha issue" to feed into consumer fears that all jewelers are crooks at heart. It wasn''t being disclosed largely because when the process was developed, the manufacturers using it saw it, rightly IMO, as just a technological advance in the manufacturing process.

I agree it needs to be disclosed now because, well, consumers have come to see it as something that needs to be disclosed.

Most jewelers avoid selling laser drilled diamonds because of this history. Even if they price them fairly and do their best to disclose and explain the process in a neutral fashion, they''re still running the risk that their customer will later mention the laser drilling to someone who has learned just enough about diamonds to be dangerous to themself and others. This person will then exclaim, "It''s laser drilled?! That means you got a crappy diamond!" and proceed to convince the customer that he or she got ripped off. Happy Customer becomes Angry Customer Demanding a Refund, or worse, Angry Customer Telling All Their Friends They Were Scammed. Is there any wonder most just prefer to avoid the entire issue?

Hopefully threads like this one will help people see that there is nothing evil or dishonest about laser drilling. It''s just a process that can be very beneficial in some cases.

 

[Sunstorm]

Ok I am trade and clueless as to who the vendor is. I will be totally honest: I would totally buy such a stone for a low price to enjoy if it was a color I love! Especially a stunning green! I am saying this because first and foremost I am an avid collector, just a more informed one and a designer and I love diamonds, FCDs in particular, more than anything, a true passion of mine. PS has become quite snobby and most people here own such “deal” stones but will never show them here for the fear of being flamed. But why do you care what others think? It is about you enjoying your diamond. Clearly at that price point and a report thrown in for free you cannot get ripped off, if still in doubt send it to Denverappraiser! Will be a cool lesson for us all and we would love to have this thread continue. BTW, I own a stunning intense green colored diamond, over 1 carat clarity close to salt and pepper but still transparent and with life. The color! I am smitten. People love this stone and my ring more than the expensive diamonds I own. It was tons of fun because we had it cut too. Such stories and the history add to the enjoyment. You have nothing to lose, you love it, try it have it go to the lab and then for appraisal. It will be fun no matter what you decide at the end. Life is too short not to enjoy right?

 

[marymm]

Mrsz1ppy said:
Exactly my point. Until the consumer says no more, the greater fool theory will continue.


OP -- @Mrsz1ppy 's comment is directed at "the consumer" -- not you specifically -- and it is her point of view regarding the subject you raised in this thread.

OP -- IMHO you have been mindblowingly rude to fellow PS members and lurkers at large by failing to disclose key facts in your alleged transaction -- to wit: you don't have the stone, you haven't seen the stone, no certificate exists, no lab has examined it, you are guessing you love the color, you are guessing what the lab findings may be, you are dismissing informed comments from knowledgeable posters because they do not align with your POV -- shame on you I say and shame on you for pointing your finger at other consumers rather than the vendor who lied about the diamond.

 

[pokerface]

Mrsz1ppy said:
Exactly my point. Until the consumer says no more, the greater fool theory will continue.

OP -- @Mrsz1ppy 's comment is directed at "the consumer" -- not you specifically -- and it is her point of view regarding the subject you raised in this thread.

OP -- IMHO you have been mindblowingly rude to fellow PS members and lurkers at large by failing to disclose key facts in your alleged transaction -- to wit: you don't have the stone, you haven't seen the stone, no certificate exists, no lab has examined it, you are guessing you love the color, you are guessing what the lab findings may be, you are dismissing informed comments from knowledgeable posters because they do not align with your POV -- shame on you I say and shame on you for pointing your finger at other consumers rather than the vendor who lied about the diamond.

It is not rude to provide what I deem to be an appropriate amount of information. If you find the thread to be not up to your standards, you are free to ignore. I am not dismissing anyone's comments, other than the ones that are unhelpful, incorrect, and/or rude.

 

[Wink]

What a joyous way to start the new year. I just spent a quiet morning and two cups of strong black coffee reading this thread from 2007. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/laser-drilled-diamond-before-after.64935/

It was somewhat strange to revisit the past and reread some of the great conversations that took place in this thread Sort of like "Deja Vu all over again."

I really miss those strong and invigorating conversations during the "cut wars" era. I highly recommend anyone having the time for a thoughtful hour or so to settle in for some thoughtful evaluation time...

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

Is there a reason you feel like it's okay to be mind-blowingly rude to me here? Does it seem to you like I understand what this diamond is or that I don't? There has not been one person on this thread who has been able to explain to me why a natural, FCD with a single drill should rightly sell for significantly less money than a lab or irradiated diamond, and at a fraction of the price of a drilled non-FCD. Even if you personally are not interested in lab or irradiated diamonds (I know I'm not!) the answer can't just be that lab and irradiated diamonds are also worthless.

Consider this quote from @CaptAubrey taken from an earlier linked thread:

In truth, the trade''s historical approach to laser drilling has not been distinguished by either logic or consistency.

Lasers are now routinely used for the shaping of rough--quite often to remove unwanted inclusions. No one thinks this process requires disclosure. So:

Laser + removal of external inclusion = no treatment, no disclosure
Laser + removal of internal inclusion = treatment, mandatory disclosure

One difference is that laser-drilled diamonds are then acid boiled in order to bleach the inclusion. But... virtually all diamonds are acid boiled after faceting to clean them. And if there happens to be a dark inclusion that reaches the surface because it was exposed during faceting, or because it connects to a surface-reaching feather, the acid boiling will bleach that inclusion or remove it entirely (leaving behind a pit). So:

Acid boiling + surface-reaching inclusion as a result of faceting = bleached inclusion = no treatment, no disclosure
Acid boiling + surface-reaching inclusion as a result of laser drilling = bleached inclusion = treatment, mandatory disclosure.

The reality is that we''re where we currently are not because of any logical progression but because, during the 1980s, certain elements in the media turned laser drilling into a "gotcha issue" to feed into consumer fears that all jewelers are crooks at heart. It wasn''t being disclosed largely because when the process was developed, the manufacturers using it saw it, rightly IMO, as just a technological advance in the manufacturing process.

I agree it needs to be disclosed now because, well, consumers have come to see it as something that needs to be disclosed.

Most jewelers avoid selling laser drilled diamonds because of this history. Even if they price them fairly and do their best to disclose and explain the process in a neutral fashion, they''re still running the risk that their customer will later mention the laser drilling to someone who has learned just enough about diamonds to be dangerous to themself and others. This person will then exclaim, "It''s laser drilled?! That means you got a crappy diamond!" and proceed to convince the customer that he or she got ripped off. Happy Customer becomes Angry Customer Demanding a Refund, or worse, Angry Customer Telling All Their Friends They Were Scammed. Is there any wonder most just prefer to avoid the entire issue?

Hopefully threads like this one will help people see that there is nothing evil or dishonest about laser drilling. It''s just a process that can be very beneficial in some cases.

I apologize. My intention was not to be rude, but that is how you took my comment, so you are due an apology.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Talk about a tempest in a teapot!
Laser drilled diamonds are relatively rare. Laser drilled, GIA graded FCD's??
About non existent.
From my perspective: I've found that people sometimes are drawn to imperfect diamonds.
So, if I had a really cool natural FCD with a large visible booger...I'd offer it as it was created, letting people know it's a stone with snot. ( I just got over the flu so I'm mucus-obsessed right now)

I do know of wholesale dealers that specialize in drilled/filled stones.
Generally, they're colorless, or near colorless. But then again, most diamonds on the market are colorless/ near colorless. And I won't even open the paper to look once I know a stone was treated ( filled or HPHT)
AAAANyway- I agree, that from the perspective of an informative PS thread, this one has been frustrating- seemingly needlessly so.

 

[Karl_K]

@pokerface
There is enough information here to make an informed decision.
The ball is all in your court, our part is done.

 

[yssie]

There has not been one person on this thread who has been able to explain to me why a natural, FCD with a single drill should rightly sell for significantly less money than a lab or irradiated diamond, and at a fraction of the price of a drilled non-FCD. Even if you personally are not interested in lab or irradiated diamonds (I know I'm not!) the answer can't just be that lab and irradiated diamonds are also worthless.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I think what many are trying to convey is that “future value” is a meaningless word without consideration of target audience. Someone could decide that this stone should rightly sell for $5000. Great. They might be able to justify that valuation a dozen ways. But who’s going to buy it? The challenge here is that the market for such a stone is so small it might as well be discounted entirely. For whatever reasons, whether or not they’re logical, rational, historically-meaningful.

There is a strong market for lab diamonds. And irradiated/colour treated - well, given how many there are on Etsy and eBay, someone’s buying them. The market for natural colour plus clarity treatment is smaller than for either of the above, lab and colour treated. Which makes this stone, objectively, that much harder to resell, and there’s no reason to believe that will change in the next several years. Which of course diminishes any assessment of “future market value”.

And I’m sure you already know all of this! But it seems you’re discounting it, which is honestly rather baffling.

Frankly until I see a reputable lab report stating that the colour is natural I’m not putting all my eggs in that basket either.