Help! Drilled but natural color FCD

[Rockdiamond]

And- we’re taking about some super rare and as yet, un-named color….at under $1k. ( red flag anyone?) So there’s not much to lose. But this is a forum where folks come to get informed.
My interest was certainly peaked. But I don’t see this going anywhere informative at this point.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

They are a small Swiss lab based out of Geneva, with satellites in Myanmar/ Madagascar/Sri Lanka, etc.

About us GGTL laboratories | Gemological laboratory GGTL

GGTL Laboratories is an independent gemmological laboratory that combines cutting-edge technology and expertise to serve the gem trade and the scientific research.

www.ggtl-lab.org

 

[pokerface]

It would still be helpful for me to understand if FMV here is really less than that for a similar lab or irradiated stone, because I do not understand why it would be. If we were talking about a non-FCD a similar lab stone would hold lesser value. I know there are not many comparable examples, but there are SOME, and I have seen no good reason provided here as to why FMV for a drilled FCD would be proportionally less than the value of a drilled non-FCD.

 

[pokerface]

Here's a link with more info on laser drilling: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/laser-drilled-diamond-before-after.64935/

Tagging @Wink @WinkHPD and @Garry H (Cut Nut) who may have the info I'm looking for.

 

[Wink]

I do believe that the clarity can be raised if the stone is graded after the laser drilling takes place...don't quote me on that though.

Visual clarity is often raised, but the actual clarity grade is not. I have not looked to see what current practice is, but at one time, GIA would not give a clarity grade on a diamond that was drilled. (In my opinion, no diamond would be drilled if it were not at least a highly visible I1 or I2. I would therefor always assume a maximum grade for a drilled diamond to be an I1.)

Once upon a time, I was working for a client who had a grandmother's diamond. With her permission I did a video on Pricescope with an in depth discussion on what we were trying to accomplish with laser drilling. The stone was a grayish color due to a large black gletz. We did an on screen look through the microscope at one point, so all of the inclusions were up close and personal.

After doing the video I sent the diamond to a business in NY which did laser drilling and filling. When it was returned, it was an entirely different looking diamond. The color was no longer grayish, as the huge black inclusion was gone, along with all of the darkness that caused the entire stone to appear grayish. Since the resulting cavity was filled with a material with nearly identical refractive index as diamond, it was much more attractive. We did another video presentation on Pricescope and many questions were asked by attendees.

In my opinion, laser drilling makes it incredibly hard to sell a diamond to discerning clients, and nearly impossible for for a private. HOWEVER, for a private who owns a diamond and wants the appearance to be improved, it can be, as it was for my client, a great gift. Her grandmother's diamond was now beautiful and sparkly.

I’m not seeing anything sketchy here at all. Mistakes happen. Vendor appears to be handing their mistake forthrightly and fairly.

Thank you Yssie, I was going to jump in and make a similar statement, but you did it better.



P.S. The video presentations I speak of were an experiment done many years ago. Pricescope would allow vendors to schedule a presentation and anyone could come and watch them. This was pre Zoom, and the software was not as sophisticated as what is available now, but the presentations were a lot of fun.

 

[Wink]

Tagging @Wink who may have the info I'm looking for.

If you are looking for my blessing, you have it. PROVIDED you understand the diamond will be extremely hard for you, a private, to resell at any price. You have looked at the diamond and have decided you love the look and are happy to be spending less than $1,000 instead of more than $10,000. You also understand that there is no Fair Market Value for this diamond. It is something you enjoy and feel has a value that is fair to you.

What? You ask if I would risk my postage money to take a look at this diamond? Heck yeah! It sounds wickedly low priced on today's market. Is it worth it? How the heck would I know? You will know when you see it. If you are still not sure, then you have your answer...

 

[Rfisher]

@pokerface
I know I’m not really helping…..
But I wonder if the vendors choice in pricing this stone is somewhat similar to what’s been discussed here before about a vendor pricing a green diamond with a GIA ‘undetermined’ report as a treated stone instead of pricing as if it was determined as natural? Some uncertainty somewhere. Whether it’s the lab itself , whether it’s they can’t find comps easily. Whether they just don’t want to ‘bother’ with the idea/‘stigma’ of drilled stones as their forte.

I hope whatever you choose you do end up showing us a picture of the stone.
Is the color natural looking or too good to be true?
What’s the shape and faceting look like?
What’s the clarity look like on its picture?
So insanely curious. So curious. Sooooo curious.




Psst- if someone else here ended up buying it ( and maybe they ended up putting it in a ring kinda like mission_frission’s , just saying ) how would you then feel about passing on it?


PS- I agree with @Wink about paying postage to see it. Or is it in another country that you are located in? I’ve already said it upthread. You won’t know until you know. If you pass, you’ll wonder…..
But this is only if you are buying it because you love it. Not for getting a deal/investment/losing out to someone else getting the deal.

 

[Cerulean]

Honestly, I think it's a curious prospect. I think as stated before, if you accept full well you may never be able to resell it, and you love the color and could otherwise never be able to afford a natural stone like it...what's $1k in the grand scheme of jewelry?

Many of us have squandered far more on bad buys, reselling, resets, etc. I'm not suggesting you waste your money without a care in the world, but I might consider it in your shoes if I thought I'd enjoy the end result.

Depending on the location of the drill hole, I've always loved Kataoka's laser drilled solitaire pendants...

 

[Rockdiamond]

From my perspective: As a professional, I am hesitant to provide advice when I'm in the dark.
So, in terms of the OP...I wish you all the best! Whatever you decide.
It's a relatively small sum, so not much to lose.
But there's no way to provide a meaningful response to the specific question.
Overall- since it has now turned into a general laser drill discussion: The 2007 thread- and the amazing results that Wink obtained by drilling the stone in that thread are an anomaly. A "once in a million" shot.

 

[pokerface]

Thank you,@Wink and all. I would never buy a gem with the intent to resell - I only buy stones I love and yes, @Rfisher, the color appears natural and the shape desirable. I still have a hard time understanding - when it seems like the vendor could have easily priced this stone for triple or quadruple the price - why it would be that 3-4 times below that figure would be unsaleable, when lab and irradiated stones frequently sell for double. Yes, yes, I know that if the vendor felt he could have sold the diamond for more money he would have - but this type of stone is not something they normally deal in, and I think they likely just wanted to turn it over quickly. In any event, I will not make any decision before seeing a lab report, if not the actual stone.

 

[Rfisher]

You haven’t seen image of the GGTL lab report from the vendor yet?

 

[pokerface]

You haven’t seen image of the GGTL lab report from the vendor yet?

No. This is what they offered me for free to make up for their error in not disclosing the drill. I have asked if they would do GIA instead and am waiting for a response.

 

[Rfisher]

No. This is what they offered me for free to make up for their error in not disclosing the drill. I have asked if they would do GIA instead and am waiting for a response.

Ooooh! I must have misread, I’m sorry!. I thought it already had the GGTL when you bought it.

Good call then! Hopefully they will do GIA and it’s nice of them to pay for the report.
The wait will be uncomfortable.

 

[Wink]

From my perspective: As a professional, I am hesitant to provide advice when I'm in the dark.
So, in terms of the OP...I wish you all the best! Whatever you decide.
It's a relatively small sum, so not much to lose.
But there's no way to provide a meaningful response to the specific question.
Overall- since it has now turned into a general laser drill discussion: The 2007 thread- and the amazing results that Wink obtained by drilling the stone in that thread are an anomaly. A "once in a million" shot.

Rock, you are missing my point. The result was a great gift for my client, who has long since become a great friend. She knew and appreciated we might not get what she was hoping for. She also knew she might get a significant improvement. Neither of us expected or thought we would get as big a gift as we got, but we thought it was worth it to try.

Sometimes, the powers that be smile upon us, especially for those willing to take the shot, million to one or otherwise.

 

[yssie]

Wait. Now I’m confused.

The vendor is now offering to send the stone to GGTL?

I assumed the stone already had this report. Actually, I assumed the stone came to the vendor with this report. The vendor almost certainly knows that a report from this GGTL lab won’t help future resale prospects should you decide to pass. So why on earth - if they’re already spending the money anew to mail and certify - wouldn’t they send it to a globally-respected authority?

Where is this vendor based? Do they deal in diamonds normally? The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that they don’t realize this because they’re both (A) not based in the US, and (B) don’t normally deal in diamonds. Or, I guess (C) they don’t care about trying to resell it if you pass - it’s a loss they’re willing to write off.

 

[marymm]

Based on your representations, I also thought you had the stone and GGTL report in hand.

You can't know you love the color since you haven't seen the stone.

You can't know the GGTL report will say since it hasn't been issued yet.

Honestly, OP, I wish you would have been more transparent in presenting the actual facts and not so intent on protecting/hiding the vendor. I prefer to avoid rabbit holes.

 

[tyty333]

@Wink Do they always (or let's say usually) fill a drilled hole? I thought I heard that a laser-drilled stone was a "better" inclusion
than a fracture-filled stone because the laser drilling was more stable vs. the fracture filled (which can come out?). Or, do they
only fill laser-drilled holes that are on the larger side???

As far as changing the clarity grade...my logic was that if it had a black inclusion under the table that was now white-ish after
the carbon was cleaned out that it might bring it up a grade. I get what you are saying though.

Edit...Just buy it already @pokerface so we can see it!

 

[yssie]

Based on your representations, I also thought you had the stone and GGTL report in hand.

You can't know you love the color since you haven't seen the stone.

You can't know the GGTL report will say since it hasn't been issued yet.

Honestly, OP, I wish you would have been more transparent in presenting the actual facts and not so intent on protecting/hiding the vendor. I prefer to avoid rabbit holes.

I’m going to agree with all of this. We all went down the rabbit hole of assuming the stone came with the GGTL report (and thus largely absolved the vendor of any responsibility with regard to lab choice, and that also ”explained” the low price prior to discovery of the drilling - “well, we’re selling it with an undesirable lab report”). This latest revelation absolutely makes me question the vendor’s motivations.

1. What colour is the stone, supposedly
2. Why hasn’t the vendor sent photos of it yet - does the vendor even have the stone in-hand? (Or has the vendor sent you photos but you’ve not shared them here?)
3. Is this a “traditional” vendor with a website? Or is it an Etsy/eBay situation, or an IG seller without any other corporate presence? There are sellers on all platforms who some folks consider reputable but whose goods I personally wouldn’t touch with a barge pole… But the questionable-ness certainly skews right down my list.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Rock, you are missing my point

My apologies- I didn't read the entire 2007 thread- but I did see the phenomenal results on the stone you had drilled- bravo- and great for the client!!
But it's important to point out to readers that, in general, laser drilling doesn't radically change the appearance of the vast majority of stones on which it's performed.

Do they always (or let's say usually) fill a drilled hole?

Laser holes are never "filled" until someone wears the stone and gunk gets in there

 

[pokerface]

I'm not outing the vendor while I am engaged in active negotiations to achieve some sort of favorable outcome here. Yes, of course I have photos and videos. This is not an etsy vendor, it is a vendor I think any PS-er would trust to represent their stones accurately and to behave in a reputable manner.

 

[Wink]

@Wink Do they always (or let's say usually) fill a drilled hole? I thought I heard that a laser-drilled stone was a "better" inclusion
than a fracture-filled stone because the laser drilling was more stable vs. the fracture filled (which can come out?). Or, do they
only fill laser-drilled holes that are on the larger side???

This was my only actual experience in having a diamond drilled. I have never been a big fan of the drilling process and once returned a diamond that came to my office with a drill hole in it. I called the vendor and demanded he send a label as I was not going to pay the postage.

Here is my limited understanding of the process. The hole is drilled to the gletz needing removal. Acid is introduced into the inclusion, some manner of immersion and vacuum to suck it into the hole is used, I think. After the black is eaten away the acid is removed, somehow.

If the cavity where the gletz once was is large enough to be eye visible, I cannot imagine not filling it. Yes, the filling can be removed with heat or acid or serendipitous error, but it can be replaced if your jeweler uses a torch on the diamond and exposes its "Not Victoria's Secrets." (I.E. if you know it is drilled, for heaven's sakes, tell the poor jeweler. It is YOUR fault if you do not.) If you do not know, and your jeweler discovers this for you, call your former jeweler and explain why he is going to pay for the discovery one way or another and offer him the chance to refill it for you. (If it is not written on the receipt he IS going to lose if you take him to court and he is going to lose HUGE if you take it to the press.)

 

[denverappraiser]

GGTL is a fine company. I consider them to be reliable.

That said, your questions here don’t seem to be a matter of the facts, correct? GGTL reported that its a natural diamond, it’s a certain weight, dimensions, it’s drilled, and not filled. inspected on a certain date. That sort of thing. None of this seems to be in debate.

 

[Rfisher]

I'm not outing the vendor while I am engaged in active negotiations to achieve some sort of favorable outcome here. Yes, of course I have photos and videos. This is not an etsy vendor, it is a vendor I think any PS-er would trust to represent their stones accurately and to behave in a reputable manner.

Outing is such a negative term. Unfortunately I do understand ‘sharing information’ here about a vendor/their policies/practices do unfortunately sometimes have some certain others here think you are really negatively outing them enough to take action and ‘protect’ the vendor.

I think your statement here is fair, though. It’s just really hard to opinion without knowing /seeing more.
And not clearly knowing what’s facts from a lab vs what’s a vendor statement.
But I think I get why you aren’t telling us/showing us.
We all may have different opinions/experiences/trustworthy or not thoughts on the vendor, once we know who they are. For whatever that’s worth - and it doesn’t matter many times to many other people as noted in other threads.

But hasn’t it been said so many times - mistakes/snafus/accidents happen, but it’s really how the vendor reacts afterwards that matters?

 

[Rockdiamond]

The process as follows:
The laser is used to drill a channel to a black carbon spot.
The diamond is then boiled in acid, which bleaches the black carbon to a white, and hopefully less visible imperfection.
All polished diamonds are boiled in acid as part of the cutting process.

 

[Rockdiamond]

GGTL is a fine company. I consider them to be reliable.

Do you see a lot of diamonds with GGTL reports Neil?

It is a complicated subject to navigate, just because a lab is not widely known doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that lab.
But the market dictates GIA...at least it has, in the USA till now.

 

[yssie]

GGTL is a fine company. I consider them to be reliable.

That said, your questions here don’t seem to be a matter of the facts, correct? GGTL reported that its a natural diamond, it’s a certain weight, dimensions, it’s drilled, and not filled. inspected on a certain date. That sort of thing. None of this seems to be in debate.

Apparently the stone hasn’t actually gone to GGTL yet. See post 42.

@pokerface sharing colour/shape info won’t out the vendor but might give coloured diamond professionals more information to help you answer your questions re. Current and future value.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Unfortunately I do understand ‘sharing information’ here about a vendor/their policies/practices do unfortunately sometimes have some certain others here think you are really negatively outing them enough to take action and ‘protect’ the vendor.

I love PS- reading and participating. The last thing I'd want to do is insult a reader participant. This thread is a bit frustrating because we have such limited info- and the info that would make this a meaningful discussion is being withheld.
I appreciate the desire to keep a vendor anonymous...but the info we're asking about would not give any clue as to who the vendor is.
I'll admit, I am curious. I've never heard of a reputable PS vendor offering FCD's without GIA.
But that's not the point of the thread. Nor would I want to make it so.
@pokerface ...just triyng to help!!

 

[Rfisher]

@Rockdiamond
I think OP knows that plenty of us can often quickly peg vendors from a photo. Sometimes even by written syntax in the description.
Then it’s not under their control. Some busybody poster/reader will contact the vendor. Vendors for various reasons may not read the thread for themselves for complete context.

Sometimes the threads then really go haywire and it becomes a very painful awkward continuation of relationship /transaction with the vendor. Because of what limited /inaccurate info was given to that vendor. Gee- I’ve been there!

The info that you are requesting won’t be available until a lab report is available to @pokerface anyways.
Unless you would give her the answers she’s looking for with assuming the vendors estimates (if she chooses to share all of them) are accurate?

 

[Rockdiamond]

@Rfisher - fair point- many photos are distinctive.
But I'm not asking for that. How about "what color is this diamond"?
How could knowing the color out the vendor?

 

[denverappraiser]

Do you see a lot of diamonds with GGTL reports Neil?

It is a complicated subject to navigate, just because a lab is not widely known doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that lab.
But the market dictates GIA...at least it has, in the USA till now.

Not a lot. Some. I do know Dr. Hainschwang personally.