Help needed deciding between WF and CBI

[LLJsmom]

Still agree with @PintoBean bean. Would want to examine personally. Sometimes something just draws your eyes, and you can’t explain it. Or you will have a clear preference. For that much money I think you should find out.
Regarding stones. I would have no problem paying extra because you’re going over 2 carats, given you’re still within budget. That’s a mind thing for me. However if I were to pay more I would consider going up in color and down in size a little in either ACA or CBI because I think that is something that is more noticeable to me. I would stick with either ACA or CBI because that is also very noticeable to me. However that is because I have seen them in person. So if possible I would encourage in life viewings of both if still dedided. I think that will narrow your options with certainty.

 

[partgypsy]

Just to make things more confusing, is how color sensitive/bothered are you. In an ideal situation you could compare ACA and CBI, AND also get a stone that is higher color J? H? to see if you prefer size over color. You may already know that answer, but it is good to make some of these decisions seeing the stone in "real life", if possible. So, I would sell your blue nile, see what you have to work with, and if possible get at least 2 stones to compare.

eta oops I just see LLJ's mom already gave same advice!

 

[uyalison]

I am scared about ordering 2 expensive diamonds just to compare and then sent back. What if something happened to them. I am a bit forgetful lately. Don't really want to risk it.

I am actually going to Seattle this weekend. I know CBI diamonds can be viewed at a jeweller in Bellevue. I just found out that jeweller also has a location in Seattle. So I am hoping to see some CBI diamonds in person, comparing the colors. Finger crossed.

 

[uyalison]

The whiteflash K 1.91 was on my wishlist, then it was reserved and disappeared from the search. (I'm not buying it, just "wishing").

Do you have it on reserve now?

I saw WF just listed this 2.023K VS2 - "just" as in today. Expert selection, not ACA. Still, looks pretty good, a little bit skinnier arrows than the 1.91, but over 2 ct. I wonder why it's not ACA?

Yes, it is reserved for me. Thank you for suggest this WF ES 2.023K VS2. I think I will pass on that one. Not because it is not lovely, it is probably a super ideal. But for a peace of mind, I will go with either a WF ACA or CBI. Thank you very much though!

 

[uyalison]

I truly believe if two stones from these vendors had the exact same angles, table, depth, diameters, color and clarity, we'd be totally thrilled with either one. I don't think we could tell them apart visually. I believe the recent comparison threads happened to favor particular stones because of their particular cut. For example, some prefer higher crown angles and smaller tables. Some favor larger lower girdle facets. Nothing is wrong with having preferences. And I would be proud to own stones from both.

I actually ordered my very first online diamond from Wink about 12 years ago when I was new to PS and trying to figure out what I wanted (before Wink was selling CBI)! Wink probably has long forgotten this, but it was a 1.66 ct diamond that he was selling for his sister. I thought it was beautiful but too big for me at that time! Funny what PS does to a person over time!

So my opinion is, you can't go wrong with either vendor. If you want CBI/High Performance Diamonds, I would choose a stone that is closer to your budget for now and upgrade later. If you go with Whiteflash, I'd choose the 2.02 K VS2 that @ringo865 just posted. Good luck with your decision!

Thanks for the confirmation that I can't go wrong with either vendor.
There is a CBI J VS2 1.62 for $12604 that I am also considering.
I think I will pass on the WF ES 2.02 K VS2.

 

[uyalison]

I would personally go with the WhiteFlash diamond, not because I think ACAs are better than CBIs, but because of the 2 carat premium mentioned by @cflutist. Honestly, I highly doubt you'd be able to see a difference between the SuperIdeal cuts from different vendors IRL, as all will have excellent performance. Finding a SuperIdeal right below the price-hike points (1, 1.5, 2, 3 carat, etc.) is extremely difficult though, so I would jump on the 1.91 from WF. If it were the other way around (1.91 CBI vs 2 carat ACA for $4K more) then I would recommend the CBI.

Basically, you're paying $4K more for the magic 2 carat mark (and a .15mm size increase). Only you can decide whether that .15mm is worth $4K.

If there is a CBI that is K VS2 1.9 or 1.8. I will gladly pick it over the 2.02, not paying for the magic 2 carat mark. As @cflutist pointed out, it is rare to find diamond slightly under carat mark. The WF K 1.90 is a gem in that regard. I understand the price difference now. Also I think CBI diamond is slightly more expensive than WF ACA, even if the 2 diamonds have the exact same spec in term of color, size, and clarity.

My son is into bey blade. We were at a specialty store, the owner was saying to me that he sees many kids comes into his store, would choose to buy the more expensive bey blade. He said he doesn't understand why. He told my son just to buy the cheaper one, which I am very grateful for. He said he thinks the expensive one is fancier and cost more to make, thus the higher price. It doesn't mean it will perform better in battle.

I think it is a bit of human psychology. People tends to think more expensive means better quality, higher performance. I hope I am not victim to that. That is why I am posting this question.

 

[uyalison]

I've not seen a CBI in person but have owned both an WF Expert Selection and an ACA. I can tell you that IRL you won't really be able to tell WF ES vs ACAs. ES stones aren't rejected from the ACA line because they sparkle less. Usually it is some other factor about the stone that does not meet the strict ACA criteria. In the case of the 2.023 K VS2, I think it is because one of the hearts is slightly off. Of the three stones, I would definitely get the 2.023 ES!

Cut is top priority for me. I would rather go down in color, size. So that is why I am not considering WF ES. Although I might not be able to see a difference between ACA and ES, but for the peace of mind. Thank you though!

 

[uyalison]

@uyalison If it were me, I would go with the 1.91 ACA because budget/$4k price difference is a tangible item that I can/would discern more-so than the .22mm difference. But, if branding and/or not hitting that magical 2ct mark now is a priority over budget, it may be worth the additional $4k to get the CBI - only you can decide which criteria is more important to you.

And I would echo what @TreeScientist said, it’s not because I prefer WF over HPD - if the inventory tables were turned, I would absolutely say the exact same thing and buy the CBI.

hitting the 2 ct magical mark is not a priority. but getting the super ideal cut is. I guess what I am really after is which is better WF ACA or CBI? I think of course each vendor will say theirs is, what else can they say. If CBI is indeed better, I am willing to pay for the price premium. But I don't want to pay for the brand premium.

 

[uyalison]

I’m going to take exception to the statement made above that theses will “definitely “ face up white.

K is a line a lot of people don’t like to cross- and AGS has been said to be ever so slightly more lenient on color. Meaning, you might find an AGS k too tinted for your liking regardless of which you pick. I’d absolutely see one in person.
I’d also take the time to find a no branded Gia J (or even higher) and see if you prefer the color.

Yeah, that is one of my concern at the back of my head. J is still considered near colourless. K is in a entirely different color category. I am hoping it will just be warmth in the stone. But I haven't seen one in real life, I might be in for a shock. Hopefully I will get to compare I, J, K in person. What I have now is I, I can see a tint on the side. would I prefer a higher color, yes, but color is not a priority. I am not willing to pay the price premium to go above I.

 

[uyalison]

If you are considering spending 15k on a CBI, you should also look at what that might buy you from WF or Blue Nile - if you can secure a large increase in size, perhaps that might tempt you away from ultra-tight cutting! lol

Whichever of the 'super ideals' you get, or even if we can find you a great GIA XXX on Blue Nile, I think you will be very happy.

I think at this point, no diamond will make me happy unless it is a WF ACA or CBI. Thank you very much for the offer to find me one from bluenile.

 

[uyalison]

I'm also of the "see what you can get elsewhere" opinion. I remember from your original thread that you were looking at some diamonds from BlueNile. Any reason you decided against it? Doing the trade-up with Blue Nile would allow you to maximize your budget, as you wouldn't be taking a loss on your current diamond.

I concur with @Niel regarding the color. I don't think that a K will face up completely white, even in a SuperIdeal. Are you sure you would be OK with the color? Have you looked at a K in person? The jump from I to K is a fairly large jump, as the brackets get wider the further down you go.

Before spending close to $16K on a CBI stone (plus the loss you would take with your current diamond) I would look at similar options on BlueNile. This is a 2 carat I with great proportions. IMO you would notice the difference between a K and an I color MUCH more than the difference between an Ideal and SuperIdeal diamond, especially in larger diamonds where color becomes more apparent.

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-de...AMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab

Thank you very much for the warning! That is exactly what I hoping for from the ps community. If it s not for you guys, I would not even think about comparing the colours in person. I am hoping to do that this weekend.

When I started looking for upgrade, K was not in my radar. Yeah, I need to figure out whether K or J is in my tolerance range. Very good point.

 

[uyalison]

Having WF and CBI are great, providing more options to consumers. Ultimately there will be a better option for someone's specific requirements at either CBI or WF with that inventory but the choice is a luxury to have.

Drizzle's comparison which very thorough, was with proportions quite different between the ACA and the CBI stone so for me it is not at all conclusive. Ultimately if the H&A images are spot on, and the light performance is fantastic, I fail to see what 'special sauce' there can be for a diamond cut to tight proportions.

My understanding is that WF ACA are select based a set of tight specification and they are vented for performance. where as CBI's diamond are cut with a different set of specifications that produce a unique high contrast look, extra fire. So does that mean CBI diamonds are better than WF ACA? Or is it more of a personal preference over the look of a diamond, each excel in different aspects, one is not better than the other, they are just different. Like green is not better than blue, they are just different. Some people likes green, some people likes blue.

 

[uyalison]

Still agree with @PintoBean bean. Would want to examine personally. Sometimes something just draws your eyes, and you can’t explain it. Or you will have a clear preference. For that much money I think you should find out.
Regarding stones. I would have no problem paying extra because you’re going over 2 carats, given you’re still within budget. That’s a mind thing for me. However if I were to pay more I would consider going up in color and down in size a little in either ACA or CBI because I think that is something that is more noticeable to me. I would stick with either ACA or CBI because that is also very noticeable to me. However that is because I have seen them in person. So if possible I would encourage in life viewings of both if still dedided. I think that will narrow your options with certainty.

thank you. Point taken about the color. Yes, you understand me, cut is very important to me, even if it is just for the peace of mind, I will decide between WF ACA and CBI. I think at the point, for my sanity, I should not looking into Bluenile and WF ES. But thank you everyone who offer and have tried to find me diamonds from those 2 sources. I greatly appreciate your help.

 

[uyalison]

Just to make things more confusing, is how color sensitive/bothered are you. In an ideal situation you could compare ACA and CBI, AND also get a stone that is higher color J? H? to see if you prefer size over color. You may already know that answer, but it is good to make some of these decisions seeing the stone in "real life", if possible. So, I would sell your blue nile, see what you have to work with, and if possible get at least 2 stones to compare.

eta oops I just see LLJ's mom already gave same advice!

Thank you. I think I am not color sensitive. But I could be wrong. I am hoping to find out this weekend.

The diamond is being evaluated right now for trade-in value.

 

[Niel]

Is the stone you have now a Gia I or does it come with some other report?

 

[OoohShiny]

Is this a 'final stone'?

Or could it be a stepping stone (hah! Pun unintended lol) to a bigger / whiter stone later?

If the latter, consider the upgrade policies carefully.

 

[MissGotRocks]

My understanding is that WF ACA are select based a set of tight specification and they are vented for performance. where as CBI's diamond are cut with a different set of specifications that produce a unique high contrast look, extra fire. So does that mean CBI diamonds are better than WF ACA? Or is it more of a personal preference over the look of a diamond, each excel in different aspects, one is not better than the other, they are just different. Like green is not better than blue, they are just different. Some people likes green, some people likes blue.

That is not a true statement. CBI diamonds are cut to exacting proportions in the same way that WF's are selected from exacting proportions. More the same than different are super ideals. People are basically saying that you choose from whoever's inventory has the size, color and clarity specs on hand at the time you are choosing. They are both beautifully cut stones but there is no 'special sauce' or different set of specifications that makes one far superior to the other.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

That is not a true statement. CBI diamonds are cut to exacting proportions in the same way that WF's are selected from exacting proportions. More the same than different are super ideals. People are basically saying that you choose from whoever's inventory has the size, color and clarity specs on hand at the time you are choosing. They are both beautifully cut stones but there is no 'special sauce' or different set of specifications that makes one far superior to the other.

I hope you are hearing this. Many of us are exactly like you and wanted "the best". WF ACAs and CBI are the best. If I were coming in new to buy from them, I know both are very fine companies and I would buy from whichever had the stone I wanted. If they both had a stone I'd like to have, I would buy the lower priced one. The stone in my avatar picture is a specialty cut stone, and that one was more expensive per carat than ACA or CBI, but that was the only source for that stone. Both CBI and WF ACA stones are cut within certain parameters, very tight parameters. But if you line up 5 CBI stones or 5 ACA stones, you might pick certain ones you like the best within that small range. However, these 5 stones are pretty much going to beat out 99.8% (just a guess!) of diamonds at vendors who do not specialize in true hearts and arrows stones.

I am glad you are now considering J color. Because I really prefer I color as my lowest and I really couldn't recommend K if someone were asking what color to choose.

The Whiteflash stones that fall in J VS2 and within the price range you have been looking are these. They all have pretty much perfect numbers, and I would buy any of the three. The last two are closely matched enough to be a pair of diamond stud earrings.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3954399.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3965476.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947623.htm

 

[natasha-cupcake]

For me, the difference came down to the fact that CBI cuts their own diamonds in their own cutting facility and owns the process from choosing the rough all the way down to the final polish. Yes, they have specific tolerances and cut targets; yes, they have exacting specifications; yes, they have intense quality control. Does that equal "special sauce"? I don't know. But I do know that being in control of the entire process and being obsessive-compulsive about the process AND the product, equates to me getting the sparkliest diamond I could afford. Maybe it's a mind-clean about cut issue, but I can deal with that. My priority was best possible quality cut, followed by high color, only then size, and lastly, clarity (eye clean SI1 okay, but preferred VS2). That being said, I wouldn't have turned down a beautiful WF ACA had one been offered to me.

 

[gm89uk]

My understanding is that WF ACA are select based a set of tight specification and they are vented for performance. where as CBI's diamond are cut with a different set of specifications that produce a unique high contrast look, extra fire. So does that mean CBI diamonds are better than WF ACA? Or is it more of a personal preference over the look of a diamond, each excel in different aspects, one is not better than the other, they are just different. Like green is not better than blue, they are just different. Some people likes green, some people likes blue.

They are both specifically cut to be superideal. WF have clear set of specifications highlighted on their website. CBI do not but generally have a similar set of specifications based on their inventory. I do find CBI tend to have more consistently smaller table, with crowns between 34.0 to 34.5 but they also have higher crowns and 57 tables out there. WF have a range that if cut to tight parameters can be ACA. So to use your analogy (and this is my impression), WF have a range of blues and greens, CBI has mostly blues with some greens. Both have excellent diamonds, and both will answer you honestly about whether diamond A Vs B has more fire or brightness. Saying that the differences to the tight tolerances are minimal (in CBI vs CBI or ACA vs ACA and usually only observed in side by side comparison in LOTs of different lighting.

ACA criteria is too strict I feel and doesn't allow for fluor or any depth greater than 62. This works well for consumers who then pick up otherwise perfect stones without the ACA label price bump.

I want to say I've seen neither stones in real life, and I'm in the UK, so I would probably only get to see a CBI stone in London if I wanted to, without parting with serious cash, but I would have no problem buying from either if the right diamond came in inventory.

 

[skypie]

For me, and I think for most people, the final result is what matters most.

Given 2 diamonds that have the same color, clarity, cut proportions and light performance it wouldn't matter to me that one was selected by the vendor and cut by someone else and the other was cut by the vendor.

I can understand that one might value that the diamond was cut in-house however as long as the final product is the same I personally would be fine with either product.

Now, if you believe that there is a difference in the performance of CBIs and ACAs and can point to a reason for the difference (e.g. different proportions) then surely go for the stone with the performance you prefer. But again, if the ONLY difference is that HPD cut the stone in-house and WF did not, there would be no discernible visual difference.

 

[gm89uk]

The proportions cut by CBI and ACA are not unique to either party

 

[TreeScientist]

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3965476.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947623.htm

These two posted by @diamondseeker2006 (the 1.82 and 1.83) are both excellent. I second her recommendation of not dropping below a J in a MRB. Old Mine/Old European cuts are a different story, as I think color adds charm to the old stones. But too much yellowness just makes modern cuts look dingy IMO. Maybe it has something to do with the pastel fire in antique cuts vs the primary color fire in modern cuts.

Of these two J's from WhiteFlash, I like the smaller table on the 1.82, but I like the cleaner inclusion plot on the 1.83. Honestly, I would have WhiteFlash pull both of these stones and ask which is the "Higher J" meaning the one with the least color, and go with that one.

Also, I second the above comments about comparing the SuperIdeal vendors. Each of the SuperIdeal vendors has their own marketing lingo to try and differentiate their stones from the rest, and I'm sure there are minuscule differences between the accepted parameters of each vendor, but we're talking very small differences here.

There are a few diehard fans of each of the SuperIdeal vendors on PS that will swear that this vendor's diamonds are superior (usually these people own one of these diamonds, so perhaps their opinion is a bit... colored? ) but most on here will recommend going with the vendor who happens to have the stone which comes the closest to meeting your desired criteria at the time you're purchasing.

 

[erislynn]

As someone who has actually owned both an ACA and a CBI and worn them daily, I can tell you without a doubt there is a difference to the look of these two brands. Those who can't see the difference either have never seen a CBI in person, are diehard fans of ACA's, or haven't compared the two long enough outside of jewelry store lighting. Everyone's eyes are also different. Not everyone sees the difference between ideal and super-ideal, so the subtle distinction between these two brands may also be hard to tell for a few people. OP, I'm glad you're planning to see this for yourself in person.

You asked about if one brand is superior to the other, if it's like the difference between green and blue. And you could say it's kind of like choosing between green and blue. They're both top quality but different flavors. Since this will be your first super-ideal, I think you will be thrilled with either. The 1.91 ACA is a great find and great value! (as long you're okay with a K color) If you're looking for maximum fire now or further down the road, seriously consider a CBI. Take your time observing it and the difference will become clear.

 

[skypie]

Interesting analogy. Did your ACA and CBI have the same specs? Could you explain what it is about the CBI that gives it more fire than an ACA with the same specs?

 

[pyramid]

Does anyone know, are CBI like Eightstar brand? I remember many appraisers and dealers liked them until they had a downturn in favour.

 

[OoohShiny]

Does anyone know, are CBI like Eightstar brand? I remember many appraisers and dealers liked them until they had a downturn in favour.

That seems a slightly strange question?!

It is impossible to predict future consumer tastes with 100% certainty, so CBI can only do what they do, adapt if/as required (if they want to), and let the market decide, surely?

Which is exactly the same as any other brand or company??


Or are you implying CBI are already experiencing a 'downturn in favour'?

In which case you must offer evidence behind this claim or be accused of making baseless, disparaging comments/inferences!


Perhaps @Paul-Antwerp would be able to definitively detail the health of his company?!

 

[gm89uk]

It is obviously more useful to have comments from people with experience with both brands so thank you for your comments. Do you mind sharing the specs of both your stones?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

More fire has to do with the particular cut dimensions of the stone, not the brand.

 

[uyalison]

As someone who has actually owned both an ACA and a CBI and worn them daily, I can tell you without a doubt there is a difference to the look of these two brands. Those who can't see the difference either have never seen a CBI in person, are diehard fans of ACA's, or haven't compared the two long enough outside of jewelry store lighting. Everyone's eyes are also different. Not everyone sees the difference between ideal and super-ideal, so the subtle distinction between these two brands may also be hard to tell for a few people. OP, I'm glad you're planning to see this for yourself in person.

You asked about if one brand is superior to the other, if it's like the difference between green and blue. And you could say it's kind of like choosing between green and blue. They're both top quality but different flavors. Since this will be your first super-ideal, I think you will be thrilled with either. The 1.91 ACA is a great find and great value! (as long you're okay with a K color) If you're looking for maximum fire now or further down the road, seriously consider a CBI. Take your time observing it and the difference will become clear.

Thank you erislynn for your input. I appreciate it. I understand it is hard for one to say she/he thinks one is better, not expecting to be "fired" on.

Thank you and everyone else here suggested that I should see the diamonds in person. I know WF ACA will be very very very brilliant. I feel I don't need to see them in person. I am sold with all the testimony from PS.

However with CBI, from what I read, it sounds like it has something extra special. I am just afraid after I pay the price premium and go down the CBI road, when I received the diamond, I will be disappointed. because it is so hyped up.

So I am going to see some tomorrow in person. Melissa has very graciously setup both the K and an alternative J for me to look at the Green Lake store in Bellevue. I am trying to set my expectation low.