Help with a couple of rubies please?

[Lykame]

So I've been carefully backing out of the Burmese ruby situation, and I explained that I was concerned about the saturation but that more importantly, the window was a problem for me. It's interesting because I'm now actually really taken with the colour (he's really made it clear in person it's red with a purple/pink modifier but it's coming out more in the pictures). Even if it were the colour it's coming out in the pictures, I think it's a really beautiful colour to me; I know this may not be the colour I meant when I started this thread but it's still really beautiful. I think it's probably a stone right on the border between ruby and sapphire.

He sent me these further pictures in daylight, which I thought I would share. The window is huge with the stone loose, but the saturation and glow looks lovely (can't ignore the window though!). He has shared what it looked like in its previous setting, suggesting that... Can't remember his exact phrasing, not that it closes completely, but that the setting helps. I can see it still in the straight face up view but not at an angle.






I'm not going to get this stone, a window from straight ahead would annoy the heck out of me, but I wondered how truly a window that large can close in a setting? I know in the setting at an angle you can't see it.

I'm actually kind of gutted, that colour looks crazy. He said he could offer a full refund including of the shipping if I bought it to see in person (wish I could) but pretty sure I would be sending it back, which is not only a hassle but I believe also loses me all the custom and VAT charges, right?

I feel bad for him, he has spent a decent amount of time on this and is clearly trying so hard to encourage me to buy the stone but without coming across as pressurising. I don't feel pressured - I just feel sorry for him that it's not a sale for him at this difficult time.

I've had a long chat with Inken, @voce thanks for the recommendation, she's lovely. She doesn't have anything quite right at this time, but if I'm still on this hunt after lock down she would be able to help.

I have lusted after Gene's work for a while, but was of the impression that Gene doesn't ship to the UK. I do love all things precision cut. I emailed him and he will! He introduced me to an app called Gemesquare and that is amazing. It's free and helps communicate colour.

The colour I love is slpR (31)5/6 medium, vivid, slightly purplish red. I kind of consider it on a spectrum with stpR (30)4/6 medium light, vivid, strongly purplish red, but that seems then more borderline with sapphire.

The only pure toned reds I really like are R (1)6/5 medium dark, strong or vivid, red. It needs to have the medium dark to it, medium is too bright. I prefer the slightly purplish red however.

Has anyone used that app before? Never seen it mentioned.

Are lab stones unmentionable here? I'm kind of tempted to just get a precision cut lab stone and come back to an earth mined ruby hunt later on. I'm waiting on Gene to tell me the colour of his lab material... I emailed him about lab material, we had a chat about colour, and then he sent me the information back for earth mined material... Can't blame a guy for trying....

I wonder if the Madagascan one from Yvonne is on that spectrum of colour that I like? I would ask... But I kind of feel I would like Burmese and the right colour and if I can't have both maybe I'm not so interested in spending so much on a ruby at all. Whoops. Is that bad?

Anyway, thems the updates.

 

[voce]

I don't get why Burmese matters so much. In the color that's "right" for you, the Burmese origin would not make it glow more, and would be no better than any other origin, as far as I know. Burmese or not Burmese only matters in the spectral fluorescence seen in trade top colors, whether red or pink, not the purplish red you prefer. It still seems to me you like the idea of an unheated Burmese ruby more so than any actual Burmese ruby. Just imo, in the color you prefer, paying more for a Burmese origin is silly.

 

[Lykame]

I don't get why Burmese matters so much. In the color that's "right" for you, the Burmese origin would not make it glow more, and would be no better than any other origin, as far as I know. Burmese or not Burmese only matters in the spectral fluorescence seen in trade top colors, whether red or pink, not the purplish red you prefer. It still seems to me you like the idea of an unheated Burmese ruby more so than any actual Burmese ruby. Just imo, in the color you prefer, paying more for a Burmese origin is silly.

You're right. I'm being silly. I want all my cake and to eat it too. I'll get over the Burmese thing, I'm not sure where that's come from really... Just perhaps associate it strongly with quality? If a lab can tell where ruby came from there must be a difference in it somehow? I think it's based very naïvely on that. On getting a small but excellent quality and glowy ruby. Kind of like you could get a diamond from anywhere but if you get it from CBI or ACA there's a level of safety in that. I know that just because it's Burmese doesn't automatically make it great... Just perceived the base material might be less full of hazard. I know that's incorrect! Just trying to explain how I got myself into that mental trap.

Would purplish red still fluoresce? I do want glow.

 

[Bron357]

My advice, buy the ruby not the origin.
A fine unheated Burmese ruby is a sight to behold but it comes at a price that will take your breath away. Unfortunately there are a lot of “unheated Burmese rubies” that are being sold for prices that don’t match the “quality”.
There are other ruby sources that can produce better rubies than anything currently coming out of Burma. All the best Burmese rubies, like the ones Christie’s and Sotheby’s sell for millions, are all old stock. From Mogok. Mined decades ago. Same as the Kashmir sapphires.
And there’s nothing wrong with lab created rubies. They are just as hard wearing and cost a mere fraction of natural. Better a lab grown than a highly treated so called “natural”.
Don’t rush in and buy anything you don’t really love.
Many of us have regretted not listening to the little inside voice saying “no, not quite right” and proceeded thinking we’d learn to love it. Quite the opposite in fact. And it’s wasted dollars when we then onsell the unloved gem / piece of jewelry for less, sometimes a lot less, than we paid.

 

[Lykame]

@Bron357 fully agree. It's got to be the right ruby. I'm not adverse to getting a lab ruby IF it's the right colour especially if Gene is cutting it. I would want a round native cut but with good angles, I think.

 

[Lykame]

Honestly you guys affect my opinion more than my own opinion and I promise I am listening.

 

[Kitten35]

I don’t actually mind the one with the window, in the setting. It has such a pretty color (to me). But it is you that would need to be happy with the stone.

 

[voce]

Would purplish red still fluoresce? I do want glow.

The glow (UV fluorescence) in rubies comes from chromium content, which is also what makes rubies red. However, the presence of iron quenches the fluorescence and masks the glow. Burmese origin is at a premium because rubies from Mogok and some rubies from Mong Hsu have low iron content.

Iron content is what's responsible for producing blue and green sapphires, too. So although a blue sapphire may have some chromium, the iron giving a blue sapphire its blue color masks the fluorescence.

The low iron content of the corundum from Burmese mines is also what drives up price of Burmese blue sapphire. They're more rare than Burmese ruby because Burmese mineral deposits are low in iron. I think I've read somewhere in Richard Wise's book that production of Burmese blue sapphire is a few percent compared to Burmese ruby production.

Anyway, the color purple is produced by a combination of blue (iron) and red (chromium). The iron needed to produce the purplish color would have a quenching effect on the chromium. It wouldn't quench it entirely, but the overall effect would be that there's little glow. I actually think in a purplish red ruby, where glow is diminished, origin shouldn't matter, because a purplish red ruby from any other origin wouldn't necessarily glow less than a purplish red ruby from Burma. Purplish red rubies simply don't exhibit the kind of UV fluorescence that makes Burma rubies famous; the famed glow only shows itself in colors like red and pinkish red, colors that don't have blue/iron.

So now the question becomes, do you want the purplish red color, or do you want the glow? It's hard if not impossible to have both in an untreated natural stone, although it might be possible in a lab stone. But then, a lab stone might not satisfy the itch of owning untreated Burmese ruby.

 

[Lykame]

@voce your knowledge is wonderful thank you. This colour is also gorgeous to me:

RESERVED 1.32 ct Unheated Burma Ruby, Lotus — Enhoerning Jewelry

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

I just don't have 19 grand to spend on a ruby.
See to me that looks darker than stoplight red. Maybe it's a pink modifier rather than a purple one? And then deeply saturated? The Gemesquare didn't really seem to offer red with a pink modifier, only a purple one. And if purple is iron and squelches the glow then... I'd rather have the glow. But that stone is a wonderful colour so clearly it would be possible?
I'll be honest, if the Burmese one didn't have the window I'd have bought it. I love that colour too. I didn't love the more purple modifier that the Madagascan one has? The fuschia modifier is more pretty to me? I'm like @Kitten35 in that colour is great but the window... Damn.

 

[voce]

@voce your knowledge is wonderful thank you. This colour is also gorgeous to me:

RESERVED 1.32 ct Unheated Burma Ruby, Lotus — Enhoerning Jewelry

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

I just don't have 19 grand to spend on a ruby.
See to me that looks darker than stoplight red. Maybe it's a pink modifier rather than a purple one? And then deeply saturated? The Gemesquare didn't really seem to offer red with a pink modifier, only a purple one. And if purple is iron and squelches the glow then... I'd rather have the glow. But that stone is a wonderful colour so clearly it would be possible?
I'll be honest, if the Burmese one didn't have the window I'd have bought it. I love that colour too. I didn't love the more purple modifier that the Madagascan one has? The fuschia modifier is more pretty to me? I'm like @Kitten35 in that colour is great but the window... Damn.

Pink is a lighter tone of red in digital color schemes. The picture that comes up in the link shows that ruby as a stoplight red to me. Note that gems are creatures of the light, and no gem, ruby included, looks the same in all lighting.

As an example, although I consider my engagement ruby to look stoplight red in the car, depending on the lighting (less light) it may appear darker than stoplight red.

 

[Kitten35]

Yeah the window is definitely big.

I do think it closes up decently in the pictures with it being set. Not all the way, but, decently enough for me. At arms length I am not sure it would be super noticeable because color. But every person has a different tolerance for wimdows and if you already know it would bother you then better to keep looking than to have something you are disappointed in every time you view the stone. You need to love it! Especially when investing a lot!

@voce that ring is a stunner!

 

[Lykame]

Your ruby is lovely. Maybe I consider stoplight red to have some sort of greater degree of orange undertone then? Or maybe I'm thinking about saturation levels? I'm so confused. (Although you're really helping!)

I know it changes with monitors etc, but the ruby from Inken, that doesn't look stoplight red to me. Hmm. I'm googling stoplight red and some of the reds I'm seeing are more orange undertone and some are more blue undertone and I prefer the ones with the blue undertone. Maybe that's what I mean. Inken's one is a beautiful colour. Yours is lovely in those pictures in the car (I'm sure it's lovely all the time.) Is it saturation then? Your rubies look like blue undertoned reds and that's what I like. I also like a bit of a purplish hue because that makes it more blue undertoned but not at the expense of glow?

 

[Lykame]

@Kitten35 if you would like that ruby I could link you? It's ~£900. It's in America. It is beautiful and the window does close with the setting, it just doesn't close enough in the setting for me. I also think the colour is amazing (although he says it's redder in person). It has a GIA certificate and the guy has been very kind to me and offers a full refund too if you return it. I wish it didn't have the window.

 

[Kitten35]

@Lykame Awe thank you! That is very kind! I do like it but am working on a different project and don’t have those kinds of funds atm so not right now. I dont know when the next time I will have that amount of funds will be hahaha. But thank you again.

I do understand why you wouldn’t want such a large window. You will find your perfect stone!

 

[voce]

Your ruby is lovely. Maybe I consider stoplight red to have some sort of greater degree of orange undertone then? Or maybe I'm thinking about saturation levels? I'm so confused. (Although you're really helping!)

I know it changes with monitors etc, but the ruby from Inken, that doesn't look stoplight red to me. Hmm. I'm googling stoplight red and some of the reds I'm seeing are more orange undertone and some are more blue undertone and I prefer the ones with the blue undertone. Maybe that's what I mean. Inken's one is a beautiful colour. Yours is lovely in those pictures in the car (I'm sure it's lovely all the time.) Is it saturation then? Your rubies look like blue undertoned reds and that's what I like. I also like a bit of a purplish hue because that makes it more blue undertoned but not at the expense of glow?

I think it's true that we have different interpretations of the term "stoplight red". I just use it to mean a vivid red without any significant orange or purple/pink color modifiers, and you're thinking about an orange tone. That's why these color descriptors are very subjective; the same word means different things to different people. I have disagreed with another PS member, for instance, over what a primary color purple is.

I think the most objective way to talk about color is something like the RGB in how monitors render the photos. In my thread comparing a Burmese ruby to my Tanzanian ruby, I took a RGB reading from an area of the photo that most accurately represented the color to my naked eye.

My Tanzanian ruby was registering as 235, 20, 61, while the typical, not top color, Burmese ruby was registering as 251, 50, 146. This means that the two stones both had more purple (seen in the blue "B" value) than orange (seen in the green "G" value, as red and green make orange), but the Burmese stone had more of both the orange and purple. The net result was that the two stones had about the same UV fluorescence. The Burmese one had higher chromium content, but also more blue/iron to quench, so that it was about the same as my non-Burmese ruby with less chromium.

Rather than saturation, I would personally call it color balance. You don't like it when the orange overwhelms the purple. In natural gems it would be very unusual to have no modifiers whatsoever, as a range of trace minerals are present when they form in the earth. A blue or orange undertone affects not the saturation of the gem, but the hue or the color balance.

 

[deorwine]

So one thing I wonder about is what do you mean by "glow"? I've seen the word used (and used it myself, lol) in several different ways. One is amped up RED color in sunlight, which generally comes from the fluorescence @voce mentions. But sometimes it can refer to a sort of luminosity in bright light, e.g. that you can find in some blue sapphires with a tiny bit of silk in them that spreads out the light -- or even just the ability to hold color in low light (which can come from the same source, and also generally will come from a lighter tone).

I WISH I could take a decent pic of my red-purple sapphire (which is definitely PS quality! But my pictures are not at all, alas -- maybe this weekend I'll experiment some more) which to me just glows reddish-purple in sunlight. I haven't got a UV light to check but I think it's very possible there is at least some fluorescence, but also I think it's the cutting and tone. It's not "glowy" in the way a bright red ruby is, but it's got its own sort of more subtle glow.

What about this one from Yvonne? She describes it as "neon pinkish red." The color in the picture looks a little on the light side, but look at the video, the color in the video looks pretty similar to what you say you like. I will also say that I have bought a spinel from her that looked both redder and darker than in her picture, so it may be worth asking her about it and whether it might be a good idea for you to look at it in person. (It's a pain mailing things back and forth, but I am thinking you may need to see a couple in person to understand what you really want.)

The other thing I would totally recommend is to get some really cheap lab rubies as color references. #3, #5, #7 if you can. These range from pinkish (#3) to darkish-red (#7). I'd do this BEFORE you spend big bucks to get a lapidary to precision cut you one, that is the best way to be able to say "hey, this is the color I really like."

 

[Lykame]

Wow @deorwine I was just about to post the following when you posted your entry - I'm just about to head to work so will have to do a proper response to your awesome response later. I'll look for those lab rubies hopefully I can get them from within the UK. Ok here goes:

I was just about to definitely ask Gene to cut a lab ruby for me in his darker material, although not sure how I will get it set in a ring... Yvonne has a nice very simple ring I really like, but not sure I can be brave enough to ask her to set a lab ruby when I didn't buy her ruby, or even if she would do such a thing. Then I was thinking a lab ruby is still going to cost quite a lot of money and I could be spending that on an earth mined ruby in the future... But then maybe if I buy a lab ruby that will satisfy the ruby itch and I won't need to spend hundreds or thousands more on a ruby and new setting... And I would see Gene's cutting, which would be great... But then Inken seems awesome and fairly priced and it would be wonderful to get a ruby through her, too...

Man I wasn't expecting this to be such a minefield. It's embarrassing.

 

[voce]

So one thing I wonder about is what do you mean by "glow"? I've seen the word used (and used it myself, lol) in several different ways. One is amped up RED color in sunlight, which generally comes from the fluorescence @voce mentions. But sometimes it can refer to a sort of luminosity in bright light, e.g. that you can find in some blue sapphires with a tiny bit of silk in them that spreads out the light -- or even just the ability to hold color in low light (which can come from the same source, and also generally will come from a lighter tone).

The amped up RED when UV light is present is what is meant by the glow when you're talking about Burmese rubies. It's that which is why people pay a huge premium for a Burma origin. I'll refer to this as a Burmese-ruby glow.

Emeralds and neon gems in other colors may also be said to glow, but that type of glow can be found in all origins, all stones not exclusive to Burma or rubies.

My main point I was trying to get across was that in a purplish red color, the Burmese glow is not present, so it's silly to insist on paying a hefty premium for Burmese origin for a Burmese ruby that doesn't have Burmese-ruby glow.

 

[Lykame]

My understanding of glow was the two glows you are talking about... That some of it comes from fluorescence, and some of it will come from silky rutile inclusions and is not reliant on fluorescence.

I'll see if I can find some source for some small lab ruby stones in the various shades, thank you, that's a great idea. I wonder if there's a thread on Pricescope about the differences between them. It doesn't necessarily resolve my sudden uncertainty about going in the lab direction at all, however.

The Vietnamese one looks like a hot pink sapphire in the video and surprisingly washed out on the picture... And not at all washed out in the video. So strange. I think one of the difficulties of pink over purple is pink is just a less saturated red, not really a colour modifier... So maybe the fact it looks washed out on the picture isn't a surprise? I'll find the page for it but don't think I would contact her about one unless I was completely sure because I find having to say no is quite excruciating for me and I already did it once.

Thanks so much. Please have an attempt at photographing and videoing your stone! Even if it doesn't come out the exact colour you could then perhaps describe it... Maybe with Gemesquare!

 

[Lykame]

@voce that's helpful...

Loose Gemstones — Enhoerning Jewelry — Enhoerning Jewelry

We specialize in unheated and untreated sapphires from Ceylon, Burma, Kashmir (upon special order), Madagascar, as well as rubies from Burma, and other classic locations. We always carry a selection of fine rubies and sapphires in our inventory. If you are looking for a gemstone of a specific size

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

Here's a page of rubies on Inken's website. I show them because most of them look pure spectral red.

The 1.32 (can't afford it):

RESERVED 1.32 ct Unheated Burma Ruby, Lotus — Enhoerning Jewelry

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

is amazing and the right colour to me. It's a very slightly purplish red. Inken agrees. It has a lotus report. Would this really not have the fluorescent glow? Really?

 

[voce]

@voce that's helpful...

Loose Gemstones — Enhoerning Jewelry — Enhoerning Jewelry

We specialize in unheated and untreated sapphires from Ceylon, Burma, Kashmir (upon special order), Madagascar, as well as rubies from Burma, and other classic locations. We always carry a selection of fine rubies and sapphires in our inventory. If you are looking for a gemstone of a specific size

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

Here's a page of rubies on Inken's website. I show them because most of them look pure spectral red.

The 1.32 (can't afford it):

RESERVED 1.32 ct Unheated Burma Ruby, Lotus — Enhoerning Jewelry

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

is amazing and the right colour to me. It's a very slightly purplish red. Inken agrees. It has a lotus report. Would this really not have the fluorescent glow? Really?

Inken's ruby is PIGEON BLOOD red as stated by the Lotus report. It is NOT purplish red. It's got a tad of purple, which is quite different from the purplish red of the Burmese ruby you said no to. Inken's ruby will fluoresce wonderfully.

This is the type of purplish red I'm thinking of, that's not worth having Burmese origin for.

 

[Lykame]

Inken's ruby is PIGEON BLOOD red as stated by the Lotus report. It is NOT purplish red. It's got a tad of purple, which is quite different from the purplish red of the Burmese ruby you said no to. Inken's ruby will fluoresce wonderfully.

This is the type of purplish red I'm thinking of, that's not worth having Burmese origin for.

I know I got distracted by the other Burmese ruby that I said no to, which seemed to have some sort of fuschia undertone (as opposed to the quite purple undertone of the Madagascan ruby), but the colour of that Burmese ruby that Inken has is the colour that I have been trying to communicate. It's a red modified slightly by purple. It's still red. To me it's close to the Gemesquare colour I was talking about earlier (maybe slightly less purple) but to me it's also not a pure spectral red like the other rubies currently on Inken's page as sold. I LOVE the colour of that Burmese ruby, that is the colour I would love, and if I had that money I would buy it in an instant. I don't love the other colours on that page that seem pure spectral red.

The purplish red you demonstrate with that picture, if that were in person that would be too purple for me too. I still want a ruby to look red. I don't want to go so far along the purple spectrum that it looks purple in person. I just want it to be a red that is slightly ... Deepened by purple.

What I have found so difficult is that it seems these stones picture and video a different colour to the way they look in person. And also communicating colour is like impossible. That Burmese ruby however is a perfect example of the colour I love.

 

[Lykame]

(I have a soft spot for hot pinks and fuschia so that can distract me... But in terms of RUBY when I was starting this thread the colour I love is the colour of that Burmese ruby. At least on my screen.)

 

[voce]

Your way of talking about color is very confusing to me. Maybe I should just stay away from this thread. The purplish red example I posted is very close on my monitor to what I see from the ruby you already said no to, and you were saying you LOVED that color, while I couldn't. What I see in Inken's ruby is within the range of what I call a spectral red. It's just that there is more of a color modifier so you see more than one hue, but it's not really a deeper color in the standard usage of color descriptors.

 

[Lykame]

@voce I'm sorry, I have really appreciated your advice in this thread, it has been very helpful to me. I'm sorry I have confused you. If I am causing you that much pain that is genuinely not my intention and you are more than welcome to unwatch the thread if that is better for you, but it makes me sad to have done anything to cause that. I sincerely apologise.

I really love the colour of Inken's ruby and to my eyes the slight purple modifier changes the colour away from a pure red in a way I find pleasing. I know it's an extremely saturated ruby but so are her other examples.

The ruby I said no to... Looks more... Vibrant hot pink to me rather than purple like... Purple? The Madagascan ruby looked purple in the video to me. The Burmese ruby I said no to, I do really like that colour, but it's not really fully ruby to me... It's on the borderline with hot pink sapphire. To me. It's a beautiful colour, but I find it more on the pink side of things than the purple side of things. Like the Vietnamese ruby @deorwine posted is really hot pink to me... Not purple. I like hot pink, but then I would get a hot pink sapphire. I don't want a hot pink sapphire. My ruby preference is the colour of that 1.32 ruby that has a smidge of purple in it. But not so much it becomes purple.

Anyway I apologise again, Pricescope threads should be enjoyable not frustrating so I take no offense if you leave. Maybe we literally actually see colours differently.

 

[chrono]

Maybe monitor calibration is different? I haven't followed the thread but just rudely jumping in.

 

[Lykame]

@chrono don't worry you're not rude at all. I know monitors will looks different and I think the colours I see are different depending on if I use my phone (mostly) or computer. I try and look at everything on one so at least I can compare within the same screen. I'm sure monitors have some impact and I'm also nowhere near the colour expert that most of you guys are. But yes, sad times that I've upset someone who has been so helpful and kind.

 

[Bron357]

In any regard, choose a vendor that will allow you to return the gem if it isn’t as you expected. Different lighting conditions, different seasons can affect the perceived tone. What looks great in a photo might look meh once you open the parcel.

 

[Lykame]

Yep @Bron357.

 

[voce]

@Lykame I can agree with you that Inken's ruby is what you should be looking for. It's out of range of what I can afford right now as well. However, I have not seen lab stones in that color, either (lab stones tend to be more monotone, uniform in color), so I don't know if a lab ruby would be able to scratch that your itch for a RUBY ruby.