How old is to old?

[oobiecoo]

As far as age 4 being the average... is that completely worldwide? Breastfeeding for that long may be good if there are few or no other forms of nutrition but in completely developed countries it is not neccessary. I saw a lady... I think she was English... who breastfed one of her daughter until 8 or 9 I think. Her daughters were drawing pictures of her breasts and had named them and everything. It was totally uncalled for.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/3/2009 8:19:16 AM
Author: oobiecoo
As far as age 4 being the average... is that completely worldwide? Breastfeeding for that long may be good if there are few or no other forms of nutrition but in completely developed countries it is not neccessary. I saw a lady... I think she was English... who breastfed one of her daughter until 8 or 9 I think. Her daughters were drawing pictures of her breasts and had named them and everything. It was totally uncalled for.

I saw that too.....

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:42:28 AM
Author: swingirl

Date: 1/3/2009 12:31:05 AM

Author: iluvcarats

This thread makes me sad.

I know that it was probably not intended to become as judgmental as it is sounding, but to me, that is how it is sounding. While I also agree that 7 is indeed too old to breastfeed a child, 9 months? The Acacdemy of Pediatrics recommends one year. I breastfed my daughter for 18 months. That is what she needed. My son stopped at 9 months, that is what he needed. I really enjoyed breast feeding my kids. My daughter was so colicky and cranky that sometimes it felt like the only thing I could ever do for her to make her happy. I agree, 7 is too old, but different people do things different ways. There is not one answer for everyone. I guess you have to actually be in that position to know what you would actually do.

I agree. I nursed my daughter until she was 9 mos. and she quit herself. Nursed my son until her was 2! Yikes, I must be lucky. No therapy bills yet. My son is 6 ft tall, in college, NO FOOD ALLERGIES, and seems pretty normal to me. I DID NOT nurse in public and I think that is totally unnecessary.


But 7 years old is bizarre!!

I said therapy for the 7 year old! Not judging those that breastfef until 2! There is HUGE difference!

 

[strmrdr]

judgmental bunch eh
Some kids I grew up with were breastfed until they went to kindergarten which is 5 here.
They turned out to be healthy well adjusted kids and adults.
While 7 seems a bit old I don''t see any real harm.

 

[diamondsrock]

I think anything past 18 months (or maybe age 2) is really unnecessary. I''ve seen message boards where the moms say they should and will breastfeed for as long as the child wants. I don''t understand that thinking at all. Kids need to be independent and learn coping skills. If I saw a 7 year old nurisng, I''d feel sick to my stomach. It''s just disturbing! Especially if they ask for it and throw a fit if their mom doesn''t whip it out. ****cringe****

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/3/2009 9:14:17 AM
Author: strmrdr
judgmental bunch eh

Some kids I grew up with were breastfed until they went to kindergarten which is 5 here.

They turned out to be healthy well adjusted kids and adults.

While 7 seems a bit old I don''t see any real harm.

I guess we are judgmental, but come on...at what point do you say it IS causing harm 17?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/3/2009 9:18:23 AM
Author: steph72276

Date: 1/3/2009 9:14:17 AM

Author: strmrdr

judgmental bunch eh


Some kids I grew up with were breastfed until they went to kindergarten which is 5 here.


They turned out to be healthy well adjusted kids and adults.


While 7 seems a bit old I don''t see any real harm.

I guess we are judgmental, but come on...at what point do you say it IS causing harm 17?

little ridicules throwing out 17.
But I do think there is no set age that is right for everyone.
Setting an artificially low cut off age based on society is wrong.

 

[strmrdr]

Here is the video btw..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6rFsxpqNBE

 

[iheartscience]

YIKES. That is disgusting, and I don''t care if anyone thinks I''m judgmental! I think breast feeding until age 2 is fine, but after that it''s pushing it.

Can you imagine the issues that boy''s going to have once he hits puberty? (In a couple of years!!!!!) I think it''s bordering on abuse, to be quite honest.

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/3/2009 9:30:49 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/3/2009 9:18:23 AM

Author: steph72276

Date: 1/3/2009 9:14:17 AM


Author: strmrdr


judgmental bunch eh



Some kids I grew up with were breastfed until they went to kindergarten which is 5 here.



They turned out to be healthy well adjusted kids and adults.



While 7 seems a bit old I don''t see any real harm.

I guess we are judgmental, but come on...at what point do you say it IS causing harm 17?

little ridicules throwing out 17.

But I do think there is no set age that is right for everyone.

Setting an artificially low cut off age based on society is wrong.

Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. Being a kindergarten teacher, I can tell you firsthand if that little boy''s second grade classmates got wind of that, he would have no friends for a long time. Right or wrong, that is our society...

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/3/2009 9:37:12 AM
Author: thing2of2
YIKES. That is disgusting, and I don''t care if anyone thinks I''m judgmental! I think breast feeding until age 2 is fine, but after that it''s pushing it.


Can you imagine the issues that boy''s going to have once he hits puberty? (In a couple of years!!!!!) I think it''s bordering on abuse, to be quite honest.

Agreed!

 

[Blenheim]

Date: 1/3/2009 1:46:24 AM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
What is wrong with BFing a seven year old?? I think that is a-okay...

I try not to judge other people''s choices, at least not to their face

, but that is pretty strange in any culture. Though I seem to recall that in ancient China the little princes used to have a wet nurse until they were very very old... and probably in other cultures too at one time or another.

From what I have read, the World Health Organization and Health Canada recommend breastfeeding for 2 years, with exclusive BFing for the first 6 months. Although many of the benefits are for the baby, and these benefits do continue past 12 months, many of the added benefits past 12 months are for the mother: BFing longer is associated with reduced risks of uterine cancer and breast cancer, and with reduced incidence of osteoporois strangely enough. It is also associated with better weight management post baby, which apparently shows the greatest effects after the 6 month mark (i.e., many women lose those last 10lbs after BFing that long). Anyhoo, if WHO and Health Canada say 2 years is good, then that isn''t ''too long'' in my book! But I agree with others who said that when the baby can ask for it, it maaay be time to stop! LOL! My mom said she knew it was time to quit when I would walk over and pull up her shirt when she was in the middle of a conversaion! I think I was around 16 months old. I''d personally like to BF for around 18 months.

Obviously, though, many factors impact the decision/ability to BF longer term, every woman has to make her own choice. One major factor, though, has got to be the amount of meternity leave that a country offers to women. I can''t imagine how difficult it would be to BF when one had to go back to work after 6 or 12 weeks! This aspect of a culture may contribute to the norms that TGal is talking about, at least as they apply to BFing past 6 months or a year.

Thanks for mentioning the bolded - I was about to go look up the benefits of extended breastfeeding.

I''m hoping to breastfeed a minimum of two years because of all the health benefits to both babe and me, and agree with Strm that I''m not going to set an artificially low cut off because it''s considered more appropriate in our society.

And just an FYI - children over the age of 1 get most of their nutrition from food. They drink breastmilk the way that some toddlers drink cow''s milk, only breastmilk is specially formulated for their nutritional needs.

Courtney - I assume that you haven''t seen the movie "Orgasmic Childbirth"? It was kind of obvious in some of the cases. Weird, huh?

 

[packrat]

My son was getting to the point where he would lift my shirt and grab at me when he wanted to nurse, even tho by then he was only nursing 3 times a day, and it was more for comfort than anything else. He wasn''t getting a full meal deal out of it. It''s such an incredible bonding experience for mom and baby, and it releases "feel good" endorphins. The baby gets a lot of immunities from the breastmilk. It''s hard and it''s a commitment but it was so worth it. Having said that, I still find it hard to grasp the concept of nursing a child when they''re in kindergarten or 1st/2nd grade. Wouldn''t that be hard for a child to understand, when they get to be that age, and know the differences between boys and girls?

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

I''m the odd one in the bunch because one of my kids nursed until she was a bit past 5. She''s #4; I nursed the older kids between 2-5 months, but by the time #4 came along, I was much better educated about the benefits of breastfeeding.

There were a number of reasons she went so long. When she was 2, my oldest got into some serious trouble and went into a juvenile correctional center. This was hard on DD because they were so close. I hated to wean her at that point. Then winter came, so it was cold/flu season and the older kids were bringing home every bug known. Soon after that, her dad and I split up, so again I didn''t want to wean her and add to the stress. After she was 2, she only nursed right before bed for a few minutes. The funny thing is that she''d go to her dad''s for up to 5 days at a time and I''d think when she''d come back, we''d be done because she''d forget. Nope, no such luck. I finally had to tell her no more because I had to take some medication that wouldn''t be good for her. I knew that the amount she was likely to get would be minimal, but this was a good reason that she understood. DD is now almost 9 and a normal little girl.

Her little brother weaned himself a little past 18 months. I think some kids are just needier than others.

 

[Jas12]

I would not BF for that long--it does seem a little weird to me, but i also recognize that it seems weird b/c we don''t value BF as much as other countries--we associate sex with boobs and have trouble thinking about BF from a basic, nutritional standpoint. Someone mentioned that babies don''t *need* it past a certain age--well they don''t need it to survive, that is right (formula does provide nutrition) but it is of HUGE, uncomparable value--even well past a year. A mom''s milk changes from month to month and after 12 months is some of the *most* valuable stuff for preventing allergies and cancers. It is a shame, IMO that may think BF a 1 year old, or older, is gross when there are so many benefits to it.

 

[kennedy]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:01:09 PM
Author: Jas12
I would not BF for that long--it does seem a little weird to me, but i also recognize that it seems weird b/c we don''t value BF as much as other countries--we associate sex with boobs and have trouble thinking about BF from a basic, nutritional standpoint. Someone mentioned that babies don''t *need* it past a certain age--well they don''t need it to survive, that is right (formula does provide nutrition) but it is of HUGE, uncomparable value--even well past a year. A mom''s milk changes from month to month and after 12 months is some of the *most* valuable stuff for preventing allergies and cancers. It is a shame, IMO that may think BF a 1 year old, or older, is gross when there are so many benefits to it.

Ditto!

I find it interesting how quick people are to criticize women who breastfeed past a certain age (did someone really suggest weaning at 9 months!?!) despite the overwhelming and irrefutable scientific evidence that breastfeeding is far superior to formula feeding and that the benefits continue well into the second year. As Dreamer mentioned, both the World Health Organization and Health Canada recommend breastfeeding till at least the age of two.

For those who are so worried about the psychological effects of breastfeeding past infancy, what about the very tangible negative effects of NOT breastfeeding? Perhaps it would be useful to examine WHY people have such a kneejerk negative reaction to breasfeeding a toddler. I would imagine it''s rooted much more in culture than it is in biology or psychology. I didn''t see the 20/20 piece, but I''m quite certain it was intended to shock rather than to educate. I find that very unfortunate as the appallingly low breastfeeding rates in the US and many other developed countries is a real public health issue. Studies have found infants in developed countries who consume formula are at increased risk for acute otitis media, non-specific gastroenteritis, severe lower respiratory tract infections, atopic dermatitis, asthma, obesity, type 1 and 2 diabetes, sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), eczema, and necrotizing enterocolitis compared to infants who are breastfed.

Finally, can someone please explain to me why it is somehow wrong or gross to breastfeed a child who is able to ask for it? I hear that argument a lot and have never understood what the problem is. My daughter could ask for milk by about 14 months. Why would I wean her just because she could say "milk"?

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:34:09 PM
Author: kennedy

Date: 1/3/2009 12:01:09 PM

Author: Jas12

I would not BF for that long--it does seem a little weird to me, but i also recognize that it seems weird b/c we don't value BF as much as other countries--we associate sex with boobs and have trouble thinking about BF from a basic, nutritional standpoint. Someone mentioned that babies don't *need* it past a certain age--well they don't need it to survive, that is right (formula does provide nutrition) but it is of HUGE, uncomparable value--even well past a year. A mom's milk changes from month to month and after 12 months is some of the *most* valuable stuff for preventing allergies and cancers. It is a shame, IMO that may think BF a 1 year old, or older, is gross when there are so many benefits to it.

Ditto!


I find it interesting how quick people are to criticize women who breastfeed past a certain age (did someone really suggest weaning at 9 months!?!) despite the overwhelming and irrefutable scientific evidence that breastfeeding is far superior to formula feeding and that the benefits continue well into the second year. As Dreamer mentioned, both the World Health Organization and Health Canada recommend breastfeeding till at least the age of two.


For those who are so worried about the psychological effects of breastfeeding past infancy, what about the very tangible negative effects of NOT breastfeeding? Perhaps it would be useful to examine WHY people have such a kneejerk negative reaction to breasfeeding a toddler. I would imagine it's rooted much more in culture than it is in biology or psychology. I didn't see the 20/20 piece, but I'm quite certain it was intended to shock rather than to educate. I find that very unfortunate as the appallingly low breastfeeding rates in the US and many other developed countries is a real public health issue. Studies have found infants in developed countries who consume formula are at increased risk for acute otitis media, non-specific gastroenteritis, severe lower respiratory tract infections, atopic dermatitis, asthma, obesity, type 1 and 2 diabetes, sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), eczema, and necrotizing enterocolitis compared to infants who are breastfed.


Finally, can someone please explain to me why it is somehow wrong or gross to breastfeed a child who is able to ask for it? I hear that argument a lot and have never understood what the problem is. My daughter could ask for milk by about 14 months. Why would I wean her just because she could say 'milk'?

I can't speak for others here, but here are my thoughts....breastfeeding is a wonderful, natural thing and I nursed my son for a while until medical issues stopped it. I feel like there are so many wonderful benefits to breastfeeding from bonding with the baby to nutritional benefits. I don't see anything wrong with breastfeeding a child under 2. What we are discussing is breastfeeding a child that is school-aged. I do think those children will suffer from psychological issues from children teasing them to not knowing how to deal with issues without running to mommmy for comfort. It may be normal in under-developed countries to breastfeed until a later age, but this is out of necessity that we don't have here. At age 7, they do not need their mother's milk...they can drink regular milk, eat fruits and vegetables, and take a vitamin and they will be good to go!

 

[Jas12]

Kennedy-- well said, i was also going to mention there is a pedi here in canada (a BFing expert who has devoted his work to aiding moms with nursing issues) who would argue it is ''abuse" NOT to BF (assuming of course, the mother and child were able). He cites numerous reasons why is it of utmost importance.

I really don''t get the ''abuse'' argument--a seven year old does not associate his mom''s boobs with sex--that is something we adults teach thru societal norms and mores. I totally agree the child needs other comfort coping mechanisms, but the same could be said about a 7 year old with a soother. It may be the coping strategy that is a problem, not really the BFing

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:55:58 PM
Author: Jas12
Kennedy-- well said, i was also going to mention there is a pedi here in canada (a BFing expert who has devoted his work to aiding moms with nursing issues) who would argue it is ''abuse'' NOT to BF (assuming of course, the mother and child were able). He cites numerous reasons why is it of utmost importance.


I really don''t get the ''abuse'' argument--a seven year old does not associate his mom''s boobs with sex--that is something we adults teach thru societal norms and mores. I totally agree the child needs other comfort coping mechanisms, but the same could be said about a 7 year old with a soother. It may be the coping strategy that is a problem, not really the BFing

Sorry, but have to disagree there. As a teacher in elementary schools, let me just tell you that 7 year old boys DO associate boobs with sex already....we didn''t at that age, but kids these days learn about sex waaaay earlier.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:55:58 PM
Author: Jas12
Kennedy-- well said, i was also going to mention there is a pedi here in canada (a BFing expert who has devoted his work to aiding moms with nursing issues) who would argue it is ''abuse'' NOT to BF (assuming of course, the mother and child were able). He cites numerous reasons why is it of utmost importance.


I really don''t get the ''abuse'' argument--a seven year old does not associate his mom''s boobs with sex--that is something we adults teach thru societal norms and mores. I totally agree the child needs other comfort coping mechanisms, but the same could be said about a 7 year old with a soother. It may be the coping strategy that is a problem, not really the BFing

I remember very clearly when I was is second grade my BFF at the time told me what sex was. I actually thought she was LYING! It was traumatic. So I disagree b/c I know kids are growing up faster than when I was a second grader. I think they know exactly what is going on. I have a seven year old neighbor and I''m sorry, I agree that BFing is a wonderful thing but he is NOT a baby, NOT a toddler...he is a little boy. Even my other neighbors 4 year old...I just cannot see how it would be healthy *emotionally* or *socially* for the mom or the child.

 

[puffy]

kennedy very well said! it is such a shame that so many of you think that nursing past a certain age is "disturbing."
and seriously, not ALL 7 year old boys associate boobs with sex. i know plenty of 7 year olds who do NOT associate boobs with sex. while i''m not saying that none of them do, just not all of them do.
and many of you who do not have kids and who have not BF, would you be saying all this (weaning at 9 months etc) if you did BF? BFing is so important to babies and some woman get grief for doing it or not doing it, they really don''t need grief about how long they do it.
at some point in time, it is too old, but it is never because the child doesn''t need it.

 

[janinegirly]

I saw the show as well and agree with everyone here. Those women (who nursed past 7 years old etc) seemed freaky and disturbed themselves. Obviously more about them than the child.

As for the woman who had an O during childbirth, maybe she should cut off her arm and see what that produces since she enjoys pain so much! The show was pretty extreme, I guess anything to get viewers.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Age 7 is flat out gross!

My son is 8. He knows what breasts are AND he would know it's innappropriate! What kind of bubble would a child have to live in to not know that is beyond weird?

ETA - Kids at 7 DO know about boobs. Recently I walked out of the bathroom with a bra on and my son said, "ah, yuck, boobs!!!"

 

[oobiecoo]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:55:58 PM
Author: Jas12
Kennedy-- well said, i was also going to mention there is a pedi here in canada (a BFing expert who has devoted his work to aiding moms with nursing issues) who would argue it is ''abuse'' NOT to BF (assuming of course, the mother and child were able). He cites numerous reasons why is it of utmost importance.

I really don''t get the ''abuse'' argument--a seven year old does not associate his mom''s boobs with sex--that is something we adults teach thru societal norms and mores. I totally agree the child needs other comfort coping mechanisms, but the same could be said about a 7 year old with a soother. It may be the coping strategy that is a problem, not really the BFing

When I was a 7 year old, I was getting teased by a few boys for "stuffing my bra" (I wasn''t!)... and I remember a kid brought a condom to school in 3rd grade. Kids aren''t dumb... they know things alot earlier these days. I think its innapropriate for a little boy to be talking about boobies with his school friends and then come home and suck on his own mother''s!!!

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 1/3/2009 2:05:30 PM
Author: oobiecoo

Date: 1/3/2009 12:55:58 PM
Author: Jas12
Kennedy-- well said, i was also going to mention there is a pedi here in canada (a BFing expert who has devoted his work to aiding moms with nursing issues) who would argue it is ''abuse'' NOT to BF (assuming of course, the mother and child were able). He cites numerous reasons why is it of utmost importance.

I really don''t get the ''abuse'' argument--a seven year old does not associate his mom''s boobs with sex--that is something we adults teach thru societal norms and mores. I totally agree the child needs other comfort coping mechanisms, but the same could be said about a 7 year old with a soother. It may be the coping strategy that is a problem, not really the BFing

When I was a 7 year old, I was getting teased by a few boys for ''stuffing my bra'' (I wasn''t!)... and I remember a kid brought a condom to school in 3rd grade. Kids aren''t dumb... they know things alot earlier these days. I think its innapropriate for a little boy to be talking about boobies with his school friends and then come home and suck on his own mother''s!!!

Kids know a lot more than they let on. . .they''re just SMART about saying that stuff only in front of friends NOT their parents or friends of parents. One of my son''s friends was caught saying the F word in class by his teacher and his mom refused to believe her son even knew what that word was!

 

[Blenheim]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:55:58 PM
Author: Jas12
Kennedy-- well said, i was also going to mention there is a pedi here in canada (a BFing expert who has devoted his work to aiding moms with nursing issues) who would argue it is ''abuse'' NOT to BF (assuming of course, the mother and child were able). He cites numerous reasons why is it of utmost importance.

I really don''t get the ''abuse'' argument--a seven year old does not associate his mom''s boobs with sex--that is something we adults teach thru societal norms and mores. I totally agree the child needs other comfort coping mechanisms, but the same could be said about a 7 year old with a soother. It may be the coping strategy that is a problem, not really the BFing

I have to agree with Jas here - the primary function of breasts, biologically speaking, is feeding children. Their relationship with sex is more of a societal construct. A child is not going to associate his mom''s breasts with sex unless someone teaches him to do so. That being said, I feel like BFing a 7 year old is weird in our society given all of the things that kids encounter at school and in the media but I know that it''s perfectly normal in other societies. The world-wise average age of weaning is what, 4-5 years old?

It bothers me that women''s breasts are so sexualized in our society, because it makes it a lot more difficult for BFing moms (even moms of infants).

There are physiological reasons why some women O during childbirth, and it''s not because they like pain.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 1/3/2009 9:14:17 AM
Author: strmrdr
judgmental bunch eh
Some kids I grew up with were breastfed until they went to kindergarten which is 5 here.
They turned out to be healthy well adjusted kids and adults.
While 7 seems a bit old I don''t see any real harm.

Same where I grew up and live. While it isn''t the norm, extended breastfeeding isn''t viewed as abnormal. Certainly not disgusting or harmful or any of the other harsh words written here. I don''t know of any research to support the idea that extended breastfeeding is psychologically detrimental. My professional background is in psychology and I currently work in statutory child protection services - we see every type of harm caused to children that you could imagine, and some that I hope you couldn''t. Some intentional, some not. None of it that I have seen has been caused by breastfeeding.

What does disturb me is the family who agreed to participate in the TV show, presumably knowing they would attract criticism (informed and otherwise) and that their children would be held up as examples of somthing strange, for entertainment. While I don''t know what motivated that decision, I find it less than child-friendly and that''s what would concern me about their parenting, not the breastfeeding.

 

[cara]

It makes me sad to hear people use words like disgusting to describe late breastfeeding... Even if I wouldn''t breastfeed that long and think that a 7 yro is old for breastfeeding in our society. How are we supposed to get society to view breastfeeding as normal and natural if it is only OK if it fits in this neat little box, but outside that box it is seen as disgusting/abusive/dangerously sexualization of young children? Like the Facebook rules on breastfeeding pics, just as long as there is no hint of an areola we will tolerate your picture, but otherwise its obscene. Well, breastfeeding sometimes involves viewing an areola.

I don''t have the same problem with people saying it is unusual in our society, or being concerned about the kid not fitting it with his peers or that the parents shouldn''t have put the kid on TV in this situation, but that doesn''t mean that it is inherently harmful or disgusting to breastfeed a toddler, or that kindergartners are the authority on which one should make parenting decisions. My brother wore pull-ups to bed well past kindergarten and avoided sleepovers to avoid ridicule but (!) he was and is completely normal as some kids to wet the bed well into their elementary years. I''m sure his peers would have teased him had they found out, but that doesn''t mean that he was abnormal or anything.

Even if YOU wouldn''t want your kid breastfed over their first birthday or 18 mo or when they can "ask for it" or whatever other age cutoff makes sense to you, does that automatically mean that someone who breastfeeds their kid to 2 yrs or 3.5 yrs or 5 yrs is making the wrong choice?

I guess I view this somewhat like the family bed concept. Used my millions/billions of families the world over, yet I would make a different choice for my family.

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 1/3/2009 12:00:05 AM
Author: LAJennifer
Several of you have said 'it is for the mom, not the kid'. Can someone tell me what, exactly, it does for the mom (obviously I've never had a baby)?

Many women say that breastfeeding helped them lose the weight faster. It takes a lot of energy for your body to make the milk. Because it contains your anti bodies, your baby will get sick less, which is very helpful to any mom. Also, it increases the hormone prolactin which is thought by many to be a mood enhancer.(I agree)
It is also just easier, as it is quite portable, and much less expensive than formula, which costs a lot.

 

[Rhea]

I see nothing wrong in breastfeeding for an extended time, but when the child is old enough, emotionally, socially, and biologically, that they are breastfeeding for the comfort that it provides rather than the nutrition, I think it''s time to wean and help the child to bond and get comfort from other sources.