How to buy a vintage OEC?

[EllieTO]

Here are ones he recommended and I rejected. I didn't ask for GIA numbers for any of these, but I can match them up to the inventory on this website (so just a caveat that there's a chance they're not matched right). I can't find #13 and I don't want to ask at this point.

#14, 15 and 16:

https://imgur.com/a/DxTSWyx

GIA certs
#14: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?locale=en_US&reportno=2239197243
#15: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?locale=en_US&reportno=2235297700
#16: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2205122449

I agree I can't tell a good stone unless it actually looks good in the video. I've asked for pics in different lighting, but no luck. I would love to know if you guys think any of these are promising. I would be ok ordering a couple to see in person and returning the one I don't pick, but I didn't feel confident about any of these.

 

[Dreamer_D]

What didn’t you like about them? Curious before I offer my opinion.

 

[EllieTO]

What didn’t you like about them? Curious before I offer my opinion.

I just couldn't see the facet pattern clearly. I need to see the flower!! Pretty much what @lulu_ma said about the lighting, that's how I prefer to look at them. Like the videos I took for #1, 2 and 6.

#16 looked promising, but I couldn't see the facets turning on and off. #14 looks like it might be nice, but I would need to see it in different lighting to feel more confident about it.

It would be so helpful if you could point out what you're seeing in these videos.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Yes you are focusing on things that are more an artifact of lighting rather than the facets themselves. Understandable but there’s a point where your also have to trust your vendor. That’s why you are paying them to help you. Otherwise just buy on eBay!

I think 14 is a perfect OEC with great proportions. I would buy it if I was looking. I also like 15 a lot and would also buy it myself. I’m less keen on 16 as I think the lower halves (the big pavilion mains that create the pie shapes under the table) are too short and the table too big to support them which i think it making it a little over-dark under the table. But it’s still a nice make.

All three are very nice examples of OECs. There is no reason to reject them.

 

[Dreamer_D]

By the way I don’t think any of these are any better or worse than the ones you saw in person at the start of the thread. I guess I don’t really know what you are looking for as you keep rejecting very nice diamonds. I’m concerned you are looking for something in them that isn’t real, but rather is just an artifact of really great photography.

 

[EllieTO]

Thank you for your opinion. Are your opinions based on the certs or videos or both. It would help if you can point out what exactly in the videos being you to your conclusions. And I recall you saying in another thread or maybe even this one, about the flower being irrelevant, and I don't agree with that. The pattern is what I love most about OECs. And my eyes are good enough that I can totally see it without magnification. That's what I'll be staring at when it's on my finger. So if I can't see it, then it's hard for me to imagine it being there in real life.

I do trust that this is a good vendor, and I'm open to ordering to see for myself. I just wasn't confident enough to do that based on what I saw, since I don't have all the experience that you guys do.

I am going to LA next week and I hope that seeing them in person will be better for me, especially now that I know a bit more about what to look for.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I’m saying it based on the videos and my experience owning dozens of old cuts and especially buying those old cuts based on poor videos and photography online. I’ve written pretty extensively about how to evaluate cut quality in antique diamonds before, I’ll see if I can dig up some old posts later. Symmetry, table size, lower girdle facet length, patterning, scintillation all come into play.

It sounds like you’ve owned or held a diamond that had the type of faceting that you like? You’ve seen it in person?

 

[EllieTO]

I'll try to find the threads you're talking about. I've done some searches but I don't think I've gone that far back.

I haven't owned an OEC and the first ones I saw in person were the ones at Collins just recently. I took the videos for #1, 2, 5 and 6 (and I saw others too but didn't take videos). I'm considering #1 more seriously now, since I decided I'm ok with going up in size and price. Assuming it hasn't sold, and I'm kind of scared of lurkers on this thread. I'm planning to drop in on Thursday to see them again before I go up to LA on Friday.

 

[bee24]

Thread 'Dreamer's Old Cut Guide'

Jul 26, 2012

OK, some people have said they would like me to make a thread with my thoughts on buying old cuts.

I was hikacking someone else's thread in the interest of trying to explain something to TGal, and instead of doing that I thought I would start this thread.

I am by NO means trying to suggest I am any type of real expert on old cuts. I am not trying to suggest I know anything more than any of the other old cut lovers here on PS. I simply want to share some of my own observations and things I have learned buying old cut diamonds on ebay.

I will likely just copy some of my posts from other...

• Dreamer_D
• Replies: 48
• Forum: RockyTalky (Diamond Discussion)

I’m not sure if this is the exact thread @Dreamer_D was talking about as she has many educational posts but I have always found it helpful!

I’m not an expert (at all) but I like the look of #14 as it seems to have more rounded flower petals flashing that I think you are seeking? Though now maybe it is smaller than you are thinking?? You will find your stone, you are located in a great area to see some in person!

 

[Scon_ce]

I think this ring is so pretty. I don't know enough about the cut to comment on that but the center stone does have a pretty flower pattern!

Bezel Set 1.28 Carat Old European Cut Diamond Engagement Ring with Side Stones

Bezel Set Old European Cut Diamond Engagement Ring with Side Stones The Cerise 1.28 ring is an AB original design made right here in NYC. The ring centers a GIA-certified 1.28-carat Old European Cut diamond of K color, VS2 clarity. The stone is bezel set in our signature 18kt yellow gold with...

andriabarbone.com

 

[Dreamer_D]

Since you’re new to viewing old, cut diamonds in person,I guess I would just caution you about evaluating the way that diamonds look in person based on what you expect from photography that you see posted online or idealized videos that are posted online.

For example, if you were to form expectations about how modern round brilliants should look in person based on how they look in photos online, you might expect to see dark black arrows all the time when you look at stones. In person, of course, you don’t hardly ever see black arrows in a modern round brilliant diamond. They’re caused by obstruction and they’re really only captured looking black and perfectly formed in photography. In person, they usually look silvery or whatever the dominant colour is in the environment and they twinkle on and off.

Old cut diamonds are very similar. That really distinctive petal shape in the centre is only really evident in certain kinds of lighting situations when it’s heavily magnified. In person it doesn’t tend to look that way unless you start getting into diamonds that are like 10 mm plus in diameter. Those central facets that you’re calling petals are in fact the same facets as arrows in a modern round brilliants, so they perform really similarly in real life viewing, twinkling on and off and reflecting colours from the environment. However, old European cuts don’t have the optical symmetry that modern diamonds have. And that means that those central faces could look all kinds of different ways in a well cut old cut. Sometimes they almost look round, sometimes they look blocky, and sometimes yes, they can look like elongated petals. Sometimes they are really symmetrical and sometimes more chaotic. So I guess I’m saying that you should really see as many old cuts in person as you can to learn to recognize what they look like in real life viewing and not just based on online photography.

And remember that if you’re purchasing a 7 mm diamond and the table is 42% of that size then you’re talking about a 2.9mm table diameter which means each petal facet is about 1.3mm (accounting for the culet) and that’s why I say that you can’t discern them in person as a “petal” per in most normal viewing. Focusing on that singular element will lead you astray. It’s far more important that those facets light up individually and scibtillate nicely to create a pleasing light play. And it’s important that the facets under the table are lighting up at about the same intensity as the peripheral facets. Poorly cut stones can look flat or lazy under the table — when the facets aren’t as bright as the periphery or when they all go light are dark en mass at the same time — making the center look dull or less active than the periphery. This was the problem with the diamond on the previous page that we all rejected. Diamond 14 and 15 both perform very well in this respect. Diamond 16 less so in my opinion. Diamond 1 that we all fawned over has great edge to edge light play and very nice symmetrical scintillation. Petals or no petals don’t have much to do with any of this.

 

[EllieTO]

Thread 'Dreamer's Old Cut Guide'

Jul 26, 2012

OK, some people have said they would like me to make a thread with my thoughts on buying old cuts.

I was hikacking someone else's thread in the interest of trying to explain something to TGal, and instead of doing that I thought I would start this thread.

I am by NO means trying to suggest I am any type of real expert on old cuts. I am not trying to suggest I know anything more than any of the other old cut lovers here on PS. I simply want to share some of my own observations and things I have learned buying old cut diamonds on ebay.

I will likely just copy some of my posts from other...

• Dreamer_D
• Replies: 48
• Forum: RockyTalky (Diamond Discussion)

I’m not sure if this is the exact thread @Dreamer_D was talking about as she has many educational posts but I have always found it helpful!

I’m not an expert (at all) but I like the look of #14 as it seems to have more rounded flower petals flashing that I think you are seeking? Though now maybe it is smaller than you are thinking?? You will find your stone, you are located in a great area to see some in person!

Thanks for the link! And yes, #14 is too small now. I'm looking for 7-8 mm, would be happy right in the middle.

I think this ring is so pretty. I don't know enough about the cut to comment on that but the center stone does have a pretty flower pattern!

Bezel Set 1.28 Carat Old European Cut Diamond Engagement Ring with Side Stones

Bezel Set Old European Cut Diamond Engagement Ring with Side Stones The Cerise 1.28 ring is an AB original design made right here in NYC. The ring centers a GIA-certified 1.28-carat Old European Cut diamond of K color, VS2 clarity. The stone is bezel set in our signature 18kt yellow gold with...

andriabarbone.com

Thanks for sharing. I have a specific setting in mind, so I don't want to spend that much for a nice setting.

Since you’re new to viewing old, cut diamonds in person,I guess I would just caution you about evaluating the way that diamonds look in person based on what you expect from photography that you see posted online or idealized videos that are posted online.

For example, if you were to form expectations about how modern round brilliants should look in person based on how they look in photos online, you might expect to see dark black arrows all the time when you look at stones. In person, of course, you don’t hardly ever see black arrows in a modern round brilliant diamond. They’re caused by obstruction and they’re really only captured looking black and perfectly formed in photography. In person, they usually look silvery or whatever the dominant colour is in the environment and they twinkle on and off.

Old cut diamonds are very similar. That really distinctive petal shape in the centre is only really evident in certain kinds of lighting situations when it’s heavily magnified. In person it doesn’t tend to look that way unless you start getting into diamonds that are like 10 mm plus in diameter. Those central facets that you’re calling petals are in fact the same facets as arrows in a modern round brilliants, so they perform really similarly in real life viewing, twinkling on and off and reflecting colours from the environment. However, old European cuts don’t have the optical symmetry that modern diamonds have. And that means that those central faces could look all kinds of different ways in a well cut old cut. Sometimes they almost look round, sometimes they look blocky, and sometimes yes, they can look like elongated petals. Sometimes they are really symmetrical and sometimes more chaotic. So I guess I’m saying that you should really see as many old cuts in person as you can to learn to recognize what they look like in real life viewing and not just based on online photography.

And remember that if you’re purchasing a 7 mm diamond and the table is 42% of that size then you’re talking about a 2.9mm table diameter which means each petal facet is about 1.3mm (accounting for the culet) and that’s why I say that you can’t discern them in person as a “petal” per in most normal viewing. Focusing on that singular element will lead you astray. It’s far more important that those facets light up individually and scibtillate nicely to create a pleasing light play. And it’s important that the facets under the table are lighting up at about the same intensity as the peripheral facets. Poorly cut stones can look flat or lazy under the table — when the facets aren’t as bright as the periphery or when they all go light are dark en mass at the same time — making the center look dull or less active than the periphery. This was the problem with the diamond on the previous page that we all rejected. Diamond 14 and 15 both perform very well in this respect. Diamond 16 less so in my opinion. Diamond 1 that we all fawned over has great edge to edge light play and very nice symmetrical scintillation. Petals or no petals don’t have much to do with any of this.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I understand what you're saying that a stone doesn't always look like that, but I also don't want to compromise on having the look I like when I happen to be in certain lighting conditions. I can absolutely see the pattern with my naked eye, for example in #1. Through the help in this thread I'm starting to learn better what else to look for, but it's still really hard. I've wanted an OEC forever, and I always figured I would get a precision cut one like CER or AVR. Now that I decided this is the time for me to get one, I'm liking the idea of a true antique because they have so much more character than the precision ones, and I love the idea that they were cut so long ago. But it's so much harder than I thought.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Yes 1 has the pattern you like and so does 14. 15 will too.

You’ve seen a few that have beautiful cuts already.

 

[Rfisher]

The pattern is what I love most about OECs. And my eyes are good enough that I can totally see it without magnification. That's what I'll be staring at when it's on my finger. So if I can't see it, then it's hard for me to imagine it being there in real life.

I do trust that this is a good vendor, and I'm open to ordering to see for myself. I just wasn't confident enough to do that based on what I saw, since I don't have all the experience that you guys do.

Not perfect - but do a PS search ‘OEC + your vendor’ maybe you’ll find a few threads that show the vendors video that’s typical of them, plus many photos of that stone set & maybe unset too in the PS’ers hand whether the stone was kept or not. Maybe that will help you a little?

I remember contacting a vendor, sending them a picture of the cut pattern I wanted - and finding out pretty quickly that a cut pattern that seemed ‘right’ in a still photo/held up in the air tweezers didn’t necessarily mean it was ‘right’ while on the back of the hand or set. I think I could see it now before having it shipped to me, but back then, no.
That’s where pattern and performance do or don’t meet. I’m not an expert tho.

I'm considering #1 more seriously now, since I decided I'm ok with going up in size and price. Assuming it hasn't sold, and I'm kind of scared of lurkers on this thread. I'm planning to drop in on Thursday to see them again before I go up to LA on Friday.

Call and ask them if you can put a refundable deposit on the stone, to wait for your visit if you really think this one ticks your boxes?



Getting somewhat close to a CER or AVR (since they have been mentioned a few times) pattern/performance in an antique is going to be a bit difficult and bet it’ll be higher priced just due to scarcity.

If you had to choose between a crisp flower pattern that too many petals go light/ dark in unison vs a less floral broken up pattern that the facets alternate more evenly (which would typically be considered a ‘better’ performer) - which would you choose?
That parameter might help you get replies tailored to your question of ‘which stone is better’


Best wishes & enjoy your search!

 

[peppermintpatty]

@Rfisher you ask the best questions and give the best explanations!!! Thank you!!!

 

[Rfisher]

@Rfisher you ask the best questions and give the best explanations!!! Thank you!!!

You are way too kind, PP.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Getting somewhat close to a CER or AVR (since they have been mentioned a few times) pattern/performance in an antique is going to be a bit difficult and bet it’ll be higher priced just due to scarcity.

If you had to choose between a crisp flower pattern that too many petals go light/ dark in unison vs a less floral broken up pattern that the facets alternate more evenly (which would typically be considered a ‘better’ performer) - which would you choose?
That parameter might help you get replies tailored to your question of ‘which stone is better’

These are good points. Though I’m not sure I’ve seen many true old cuts that show a great petal pattern but have poor optics… I’m not sure such a situation really occurs all that often. Though suppose it depends on your strictly you define “petals.”

My commentary isn’t so much aimed at convincing OP that a petal pattern is unimportant. Rather, to my eye OP has already seen and rejected numerous stones that have a very good petal pattern for true old cuts (not modern versions), so I’m concerned they may be applying an unrealistic standard. Seeing many many old cuts and training your eyes is the only way learn what is typical and to learn how to correlate photography with real life performance so I’m glad OP will have that opportunity!

 

[Scon_ce]

@EllieTO your thread triggered my memory on how much I enjoyed following this other OEC journey back in 2021 so I had did a quick review of it. Pages 3,4, & 5 in particular take a deep dive into flowery patterns, star facets, warmer diamond colors, etc! Very cool! Take a look

#JOTW Thread 'A 5ct OEC Finds a New Home and Some TLC'

Jan 17, 2021

After many long months DW’s quest for her 40th wedding anniversary upgrade is finally over. It was the beautiful and talented Amy Phillips at David Klass who found it for us! Amy knew we were looking for an OEC as David had been helping us with our search. She was meeting with one of her Jeweler customers and discovered he had just gotten in a 5ct OEC, so she grabbed it for us!

The OEC was 5.22ct and had just about everything DW was looking for in an OEC, except a visible flower petal pattern under the table. The diamond was pretty beat up with chips on the girdle, and a number of...

• prs
• jotw
• Replies: 126
• Forum: Show Me the Bling! (Rings, Earrings, Jewelry)

• 
• 

 

[peppermintpatty]

You are way too kind, PP.

It’s not just this post, your questions and the direction you offer are always well thought out. I’m always thinking to myself, I would have never thought of that! So I appreciate your insight!

 

[Dreamer_D]

@EllieTO your thread triggered my memory on how much I enjoyed following this other OEC journey back in 2021 so I had did a quick review of it. Pages 3,4, & 5 in particular take a deep dive into flowery patterns, star facets, warmer diamond colors, etc! Very cool! Take a look

#JOTW Thread 'A 5ct OEC Finds a New Home and Some TLC'

Jan 17, 2021

After many long months DW’s quest for her 40th wedding anniversary upgrade is finally over. It was the beautiful and talented Amy Phillips at David Klass who found it for us! Amy knew we were looking for an OEC as David had been helping us with our search. She was meeting with one of her Jeweler customers and discovered he had just gotten in a 5ct OEC, so she grabbed it for us!

The OEC was 5.22ct and had just about everything DW was looking for in an OEC, except a visible flower petal pattern under the table. The diamond was pretty beat up with chips on the girdle, and a number of...

• prs
• jotw
• Replies: 126
• Forum: Show Me the Bling! (Rings, Earrings, Jewelry)

• 
• 

That thread is super interesting, and I think makes some really relevant points to the discussions we’ve been having in this thread. Or at least the discussions I’ve been trying to have in this thread lol

That diamond does indeed show a perfect floral petal pattern in the center. However, it is essential to note that they had to re-cut an old diamond to achieve that appearance. In my opinion, the original diamond had a beautiful cut to begin with. To achieve the aesthetic they wanted, they had to make the table larger. Originally it was 48% and they made the table larger to 52%. In addition they had to re-cut the pavilion to make the lower girdle facets longer. That combination of longer lower girdle facets and a slightly larger table is what creates that floral pattern. That is very uncommon combination in true old cuts.

If you are looking for that pattern in a true old cut, there is a very narrow window in which diamonds like that were being cut. It is the very early years of what we call the transitional period. It was not really possible to cut diamonds to those proportions until they developed the cutting techniques that later were used to develop the modern round brilliant. Larger tables didn’t start to emerge until the late 20s, nor did longer lower girdle facets. Because it was such a short period of time in which those diamonds were being cut, they’re really hard to find.

I have seen a handful of diamonds on price scope over the years that are true antiques and have that really obvious floral center. CharmyPoo’S might come close but I think even then the floral pattern might not meet OP’s desires. Note it took Charmy years to find this stone (granted she was hunter in eBay but I think the point remains)

I usually don't post about my purchases until the final piece is done but I am so excited that I have to share this one. Plus, it would be mean to withhold much longer given all the spoilers. Some of you have been following my search for the perfect OEC over the past year and not being able to find the right one. Well, the right one is finally here and it was worth the pain, risk and hours of searching - the satisfaction and love for a diamond ... I didn't think it was possible but now I understand.

I was bitten by the OEC bug and snagged my first 1.7ct back in 2011 which I adored and still adore (see here) followed by a 1.65ct transitional cut and a few other 1ct OECs for a special project. It wasn’t long before I had the urge for an uber OEC to ultimately use as an e-ring upgrade. I had a long list of requirements that was hard to meet and sometimes I thought it was impossible.

My Hit List
Cut: Well cut OEC with a small flower center and minimal obstruction
Carat: > 2.5ct
Color: As white as possible (no lower than GIA J)
Clarity: Eye and Mind Clean (VS + for me)
Table: Tiny table under 50%
Price: Dirt Cheap … as little as possible

I searched all over the internet, on eBay, in Chicago and in NYC, had vendors looked … but no one had what I wanted in terms of specs (and that was not even considering price). Fast forward to November 2012, I came close and picked up another old cut from eBay which was a 2.1 ct EGL I transitional cut (I know many PSers have seen this auction). It was a good price and beautiful stone but not for me – too much obstruction for my liking and there was a teensy bit too much color as an e-ring replacement. After much debate, I ended up returning the ring to the seller and it is now in another happy home.

Dreamer_D and ForteKitty put up with all my whining for a long time trying to find the diamond and debating a number of purchases. Around the holidays, Dreamer found a potential stone off eBay that had bad photos but we saw potential and all the specs sounded about right. The seller was incredibly difficult to deal with – no proper pictures, didn’t answer questions, had to talk on the phone, only available in the middle of the night, will only accept cash, had to deal in person at his local bank, will not send to my appraiser on my dime, needed a notary to sign estate papers … the list continued onto outright strange things like calling me at strange hours and refusing to hang up, telling me odd private stories. I think most people would have given up after week one but I somehow put up with it for two months because I just couldn’t get my mind off that diamond and setting.

Anyways, long story short – I almost walked away from the deal on multiple occasions (including on the day of the transaction after I flew to meet him) … but I didn’t give up and made it through scoring this amazing diamond (and ring) which is everything I wanted. I am so glad I didn’t give up!

The Specs According to Me
Cut: Amazingly well cut for an old stone with next to no obstruction <- CHECK
Size: 9 mm – guessing around 2.6 to 2.7 ct <- CHECK
Color: Thinking it is a GIA H/I based on comparison to my other stones <- CHECK
Clarity: Unable to find inclusions with a 60x microscope (I know there must be some) <- CHECK
Table: Probably low to mid 40s <- CHECK
Price: Very happy with price and was already offered more than double by a pawn shop <- CHECK

The diamond is everything I wanted and I am even more appreciative of it because of how rare such a diamond is. The bonus is that the platinum setting is gorgeous and in perfect condition … a style that is pretty timeless. The downside is that it is a size 8 which is way too big for me.

OP you will probably have more luck finding that floral pattern with diamonds that have a table closer to 50%. These will be very round very symmetric diamonds you may even be more happy with the appearance of what we would call transitional diamonds. Those also will show a very distinct floral pattern in the centre although they tend to be a little bit more angular than the old cut versions. My diamond is an example of a later transitional that has a very distinct floral-ish pattern in the center, though it’s more angular being a true transitional.





More classic old European cut proportions have tables much closer to 40%. When the table is that small, it means that the typical lower girdle facets, which are more like 60% in old European cuts, aren’t long enough to reach the under table region, and thus aren’t long enough to bisect the pavilion mains thus creating the petals that you’re after. This explanation may be more technical than you’re interested in. But all this is to say that the very distinct petal formation that you see on modern precision versions of European cuts is indeed vanishingly the rare in true antiques. Being open to other variations in make will make your search easier. But if you’re really set on that appearance, then consider looking for stones that are more transitional in nature and certainly ones that have slightly larger tables.

I also think it was interesting that they mentioned in that thread that vendors and cutters had never heard of a “floral pattern” for old cuts which suggests that if you’re trying to communicate with vendors, you are going to have to find other ways to describe what you’re looking for. Pictures might be the best way to achieve it.

 

[lavenderdragonfly23]

I’ve read this thread in bits, I need to go back and reread it together…. But I just need to say….

Can we please all give applause to those who truly understand the science behind a beautiful antique cut … thank you @Dreamer_D and the many other veterans who take time out of their day to share their knowledge and passion to direct and teach newbies and those who just love antique diamonds and want to learn more…

We see you! Just know each and every one of you are greatly appreciated!




And @Dreamer_D im not kidding when I say I just pulled out my antique diamond notebook and added to it with your last post! Thank you!

 

[EllieTO]

Not perfect - but do a PS search ‘OEC + your vendor’ maybe you’ll find a few threads that show the vendors video that’s typical of them, plus many photos of that stone set & maybe unset too in the PS’ers hand whether the stone was kept or not. Maybe that will help you a little?

I remember contacting a vendor, sending them a picture of the cut pattern I wanted - and finding out pretty quickly that a cut pattern that seemed ‘right’ in a still photo/held up in the air tweezers didn’t necessarily mean it was ‘right’ while on the back of the hand or set. I think I could see it now before having it shipped to me, but back then, no.
That’s where pattern and performance do or don’t meet. I’m not an expert tho.



Call and ask them if you can put a refundable deposit on the stone, to wait for your visit if you really think this one ticks your boxes?



Getting somewhat close to a CER or AVR (since they have been mentioned a few times) pattern/performance in an antique is going to be a bit difficult and bet it’ll be higher priced just due to scarcity.

If you had to choose between a crisp flower pattern that too many petals go light/ dark in unison vs a less floral broken up pattern that the facets alternate more evenly (which would typically be considered a ‘better’ performer) - which would you choose?
That parameter might help you get replies tailored to your question of ‘which stone is better’


Best wishes & enjoy your search!

@Rfisher Lots of good ideas, thank you! I will try seaching for vendors and will also consider a deposit to hold #1, if still available.
To answer your question about better flower vs better performance - I want both. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and don't like to settle. Ignorance can be bliss, but once I know better it's hard for me to settle for less than the best.

These are good points. Though I’m not sure I’ve seen many true old cuts that show a great petal pattern but have poor optics… I’m not sure such a situation really occurs all that often. Though suppose it depends on your strictly you define “petals.”

My commentary isn’t so much aimed at convincing OP that a petal pattern is unimportant. Rather, to my eye OP has already seen and rejected numerous stones that have a very good petal pattern for true old cuts (not modern versions), so I’m concerned they may be applying an unrealistic standard. Seeing many many old cuts and training your eyes is the only way learn what is typical and to learn how to correlate photography with real life performance so I’m glad OP will have that opportunity!

Maybe I can help explain how I got to where we are in this thread. I'm familiar with MRBs and have owned an ideal cut. MRBs are very simple, and it's easy to see that all the standard vendor listings for ideal cut MRBs have the perfect arrows. Arrows don't necessarily guarantee an ideal cut, but you'd never have an ideal cut without arrows. And yes I can see them in the right lighting conditions, but I don't love MRBs because I like looking at arrows.

So from there... I've long admired CERs and AVRs. They all have the perfect flower patterns. And I so love that look, which is one of the things that draws me to OECs rather than MRB. I don't need max sparkle, I want to see the pretty facets dance, as someone earlier in this thread called it. I've never seen a precision OEC without the flower. So in my head, as I started looking at vintage stones, I figured the best performing ones will be the ones with nice flowers, at least as a starting point. But I understood that they will never be as perfect as precision cuts, and I kept hearing that vintage stones were all unique, can't be judged by stats alone, have to be seen in person, etc. So I figured I'd start with the prettiest looking ones and refine from there. And of course I haven't really seen them in real life, so I really didn't know how to go about picking something from pictures/videos, past starting with one that looked as close as possible to precision cuts. Then I learned to pay attention to dark centers, facets turning on/off, and I still can't even comprehend a lot of the more technical details in @Dreamer_D 's older threads.

Finally... I don't think it's fair to say that I've rejected a bunch of very nice stones because I don't think the flower is perfect enough. Not at all. The reasons that I haven't selected one yet are because: I keep being told I need to see a bunch in person; I didn't want to buy the first pretty shiny thing I saw, especially out of budget (case in point, stone #1); and the ~2 ct ones I am now considering were out of my original parameters for size/price, I just wanted to take the opportunity to see as many as I could. Then you all convinced me to go larger, so here I am now re-considering the earlier ones. I'm fortunate that my budget is flexible and unconstrained, other than an arbitrary line in my own head of what is too much for me to spend on a shiny little thing at this point in my life and journey.

I was unsure about the ones from the vendor-who-shall-not-be-named-even-though-everyone-probably-knows because I just don't know enough to judge a cut in that lighting. I was confused and wanted to learn. In fact, I was almost prepared to just trust you guys and the trusted vendor and order a couple to pick from, trusting that I would be happy with them in person... but then you all rejected #13 (which the vendor said was "made for me"), which confused me even more and I abandoned the idea of ordering just based on a recommendation.

I hope that helps explain my journey and thought process. I'm really not trying to be a stubborn newbie. I am so grateful for everyone willing to share their time and expertise.

 

[Dreamer_D]

You’re lucky to live in an area where you can see stones in person. Keep looking and learn about the variety of appearances that are common in old cuts and then follow your eyes and all will be well.

By the way maybe if you share some images of antique stones you love the looks of it will help us offer advice, too. Pictures are better than words.

 

[EllieTO]

@EllieTO your thread triggered my memory on how much I enjoyed following this other OEC journey back in 2021 so I had did a quick review of it. Pages 3,4, & 5 in particular take a deep dive into flowery patterns, star facets, warmer diamond colors, etc! Very cool! Take a look

#JOTW Thread 'A 5ct OEC Finds a New Home and Some TLC'

Jan 17, 2021

After many long months DW’s quest for her 40th wedding anniversary upgrade is finally over. It was the beautiful and talented Amy Phillips at David Klass who found it for us! Amy knew we were looking for an OEC as David had been helping us with our search. She was meeting with one of her Jeweler customers and discovered he had just gotten in a 5ct OEC, so she grabbed it for us!

The OEC was 5.22ct and had just about everything DW was looking for in an OEC, except a visible flower petal pattern under the table. The diamond was pretty beat up with chips on the girdle, and a number of...

• prs
• jotw
• Replies: 126
• Forum: Show Me the Bling! (Rings, Earrings, Jewelry)

• 
• 

Wow, thank you for this, it's beyond fascinating! And thank you @Dreamer_D for adding the helpful commentary about tables closer to 50%. I also have an OEC notebook and added notes to it! I was already open to transitionals as well as old mines, since I know they are all on a continuum.

I have two more videos from vendors to share. Not sure I have the energy for it tonight, but will post at some point.

Back to Collins on Thursday to refresh my memory, then three stops in LA on Friday.

 

[EllieTO]

Here's a video I received from a vendor today. They're on the east coast so I can't see this one unless I order it. Return policy is ok, but I would need to pay for return shipping. I just did a quick quote with UPS and it would be ~$200 with insurance, I don't love that. Are there any tips & tricks for reasonable return shipping options? I assume some vendors get a preferred rate, but not all of them mention the option to use their account.

#17: 2.11 L SI1

https://imgur.com/a/y5HWdOx

GIA: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?locale=en_US&reportno=5222682792
It's the one on the left. I don't know what the other stones are, probably a video taken for another client.
I'm not totally sure about going this large, but it looked pretty in the picture. I think it looks nice in the video too, but should I be concerned about most of the center facets being dark?


What is PS etiquette for posting videos from vendors? I got a video from JbG that I can't anonymize. I kind of want to keep them anonymous to a reasonable extent to avoid lurkers, and I also don't want to go against any PS etiquette. I know people do it, but is it at all frowned upon?

 

[Rfisher]

I was unsure about the ones from the vendor-who-shall-not-be-named-even-though-everyone-probably-knows because I just don't know enough to judge a cut in that lighting. I was confused and wanted to learn. In fact, I was almost prepared to just trust you guys and the trusted vendor and order a couple to pick from, trusting that I would be happy with them in person... but then you all rejected #13 (which the vendor said was "made for me"), which confused me even more and I abandoned the idea of ordering just based on a recommendation.

I just wanted to say I remember this happening on my own search.
I gave that vendor a picture of what I wanted, was told their suggestion(s) were exactly the same. They 100% weren’t.
So it’s not just you. I will guess it’s probably the same vendor. If I showed you the pictures and interaction, you’d probably have a laugh!

I remember one well known PS’er (not in this thread) long time ago said some words to me, off line, trying to be helpful on a stone and ‘teach’ me. Dismissive and condescending to a level I’ve not ever seen on a public thread. I think it was for a stone she had for sale - lol.
I felt the same as somewhat as you have shared, as things not being ‘fair’ but i do ultimately think she was trying to be helpful to me. I learned a bit, and that’s what I take from it.

What is PS etiquette for posting videos from vendors? I got a video from JbG that I can't anonymize. I kind of want to keep them anonymous to a reasonable extent to avoid lurkers, and I also don't want to go against any PS etiquette. I know people do it, but is it at all frowned upon?

I’m not sure how you can completely anonymize. I think there’s plenty of PS’ers who will ‘know’ no matter what you do.
Lurkers on a ‘search for’ thread, do absolutely suck.

Speaking of JbG and her videos. Her smugmug account has lots of sold stones too that have various types pictures and videos along with pictures of the stone that do help one learn how to ‘see’ her tweezers in the air videos compared to back of the hand.

but should I be concerned about most of the center facets being dark?

I think so yes. It could be just the distance between the stone and the camera/head when it was taken and it may not be as complete in real life in your hand but I don’t think it would totally go away on the hand. Someone will correct me on that if I’m wrong.
If you get a picture of all the center facets being the same lit up at same time - the reverse should also be true - if they light up the same, at the same time, they will all go dark in tandem the same.

It’s a journey, that’s all I can say. Enjoy it. You always can go back to looking at branded avr/cer’s.

 

[vitona526]

I’ve been following along and stumbled on this one today … I think it has the pattern you’ve described?

2.08ct OLD EUROPEAN CUT DIAMOND GIA CERTIFIED I VS2 VINTAGE LOOSE NATURAL 2ct

Highlights:- 2.08ct size- Original vintage diamond- Beautiful old European cut. Gorgeous fire!- GIA certified- Nice white face up with I color- Excellent VS2 clarityAdditional Notes:The diamond is being sold loose, but it can be mounted upon request

ivyandrose.com

Dreamer_D, Luluma, some of these ladies are diamond whisperers and I’d trust their judgement based on videos. Not myself, but throwing this out there just in case

 

[lulu_ma]

That thread is super interesting, and I think makes some really relevant points to the discussions we’ve been having in this thread. Or at least the discussions I’ve been trying to have in this thread lol

That diamond does indeed show a perfect floral petal pattern in the center. However, it is essential to note that they had to re-cut an old diamond to achieve that appearance. In my opinion, the original diamond had a beautiful cut to begin with. To achieve the aesthetic they wanted, they had to make the table larger. Originally it was 48% and they made the table larger to 52%. In addition they had to re-cut the pavilion to make the lower girdle facets longer. That combination of longer lower girdle facets and a slightly larger table is what creates that floral pattern. That is very uncommon combination in true old cuts.

If you are looking for that pattern in a true old cut, there is a very narrow window in which diamonds like that were being cut. It is the very early years of what we call the transitional period. It was not really possible to cut diamonds to those proportions until they developed the cutting techniques that later were used to develop the modern round brilliant. Larger tables didn’t start to emerge until the late 20s, nor did longer lower girdle facets. Because it was such a short period of time in which those diamonds were being cut, they’re really hard to find.

I have seen a handful of diamonds on price scope over the years that are true antiques and have that really obvious floral center. CharmyPoo’S might come close but I think even then the floral pattern might not meet OP’s desires. Note it took Charmy years to find this stone (granted she was hunter in eBay but I think the point remains)



OP you will probably have more luck finding that floral pattern with diamonds that have a table closer to 50%. These will be very round very symmetric diamonds you may even be more happy with the appearance of what we would call transitional diamonds. Those also will show a very distinct floral pattern in the centre although they tend to be a little bit more angular than the old cut versions. My diamond is an example of a later transitional that has a very distinct floral-ish pattern in the center, though it’s more angular being a true transitional.





More classic old European cut proportions have tables much closer to 40%. When the table is that small, it means that the typical lower girdle facets, which are more like 60% in old European cuts, aren’t long enough to reach the under table region, and thus aren’t long enough to bisect the pavilion mains thus creating the petals that you’re after. This explanation may be more technical than you’re interested in. But all this is to say that the very distinct petal formation that you see on modern precision versions of European cuts is indeed vanishingly the rare in true antiques. Being open to other variations in make will make your search easier. But if you’re really set on that appearance, then consider looking for stones that are more transitional in nature and certainly ones that have slightly larger tables.

I also think it was interesting that they mentioned in that thread that vendors and cutters had never heard of a “floral pattern” for old cuts which suggests that if you’re trying to communicate with vendors, you are going to have to find other ways to describe what you’re looking for. Pictures might be the best way to achieve it.

@Dreamer_D your posts are so informative! I do think that are mid/late OECs that exhibit the petals like my former 4 ct. She had a larger table, but classic OEC pavilion mains and a large culet facet.

I'm convinced that she came out of a pin or tiara. One day, I'll have to do a deep dive into some of the famous tiaras and see which stones have petals.



You can see the petals here, but adjacent petals are dark due to the spread of the stone.

 

[Rfisher]

old cuts that show a great petal pattern but have poor optics… I’m not sure such a situation really occurs all that often. Though suppose it depends on your strictly you define “petals.”

I don’t disagree with you at all. You are correct it is on how one/the specific vendor wants to define a the word petals.

My point in saying it here in this thread to the OP, reflects on what I was shown by a specific vendor, what I was told by that specific vendor. Sounding familiar to what the OP has stated they are experiencing.
The stone the vendor was sending me, they claimed had the exact same center facet pattern I was looking for and matched my inspo pic I sent as example.

I cannot access that specific vendors photos of the exact stone anymore.
So I will use a different vendors listing photo & my in hand photo of the same stone to similarly illustrate what I mean.
To be clear - the vendor of the stone that I am picturing here did not make those same claims. And that I do not own this stone.

Plenty of educated people here would have not been ‘fooled’ in thinking this was a good contender to see a clear floral center pattern, once on the hand. So this was what was in my mind when I stated facet pattern vs optics. I probably chose poor wording.

 

[Dreamer_D]

#17: 2.11 L SI1

https://imgur.com/a/y5HWdOx

GIA: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?locale=en_US&reportno=5222682792

the center looking dark gives me pause. Notice how the two stones next to it have central facets that are lit up? Makes me think it’s cut and not just lighting or a head/camera too close.

This stone is a good example of a trade off I have noticed in old cuts. The table is 50% which could potentially allow for more of the pavilion mains to show and potentially allow for the petals you like. BUT in my experience most old cuts are not proportioned to support a 50% table. Leakage or other undesirable light play often occurs with table larger than 50% in my experience with otherwise classically proportioned old cuts. Sometimes they show leakage (a hazy circle just inside the table) or this type of issue with the light play in the pavilion mains. One of the OECs in my five stone suite has this problem. She’s on the upper left in this picture showing leakage that is visible at tilt, which is 53%. The other stones have a 42% tables and perfect proportions for OEC. But the petals are only visible on the tilt bc otherwise the lower girdle facets aren’t visible under the table. This stone is small and the leakage isn’t super visible in person so I don’t mind.



I don’t see leakage in the stone you just posted but I’m just highlighting that other problems can sometimes occur with larger tables (larger than 45%) in OEC, like over darkness or lazy light play.

This problem is why I personally like very small tables in OECs, 42% for example, even though it means that the full petal shape is not present. Hence my earlier cautioning about focusing on the petals too much.

As I said, you can find examples of OECs that are proportioned to support the larger tables so the lower girdles bisect the pavilion mains under the table. But it’s hard to find! And more common in transitional that have lower crowns, longer lower girdle facets, and pavilion angles to better support the larger table.