I am not sure what to do....

[DonaBella]

Just an update on this issue---Called future DIL and arranged a lunch mtg with her on the afternoon of the 23rd of Dec. We met at a restaurant because I felt it would be best not to meet at my home or hers. I was nervous so I typed up what I wanted to say overall so that I wouldn''t forget and so that I would less likely go off on an emotional tangent. It worked pretty good. Our talk went over fine for the most part. I appreciated her coming and told her so. She seemed sincerely apolgetic and sensed she was making attempts at being genuine. She admitted to judging me and allowing herself to being influenced by my older daughter and that daughter''s comments. Future DIL admitted she does not know any of the history of my relationship with my girls, them with me, or the girls with each other. She went on to say she talked with my son and realized that the way he conveyed the day I spent with the girls he went into overkill to try to patch things up. I feel overall it was a good meeting and I emphasized to her that her actions as reported to me through my son, her fiance, did not go with her claim of being upfront and honest with me and that needed to change. She totally agreed that I was right to feel as I did and she felt badly for giving out conflicting messages.
I walked away from this feeling better we talked, as did she. I made sure she knew that I was the type of person that faces things, even awkward accusations like this, head on. I also verbalized that since she is going to be a part of this family, she needs to be aware that other situations may come up and to come to me directly, rather than gossip about what one thinks is the facts. Do I think things will be like the were? No, they won''t and can''t be. I am wary, I will admit that. I feel extremely ill at ease with the knowledge that I was discussed in such a tawdry and inappropriate manner, so I will have my guard up--whether that be in a deliberate way or on a subconscious level.
My son has been a jerk to me off and on since then, he and I are a little strained at the moment. My daughter in question has been shooting zingers at me during the holiday by little things, like giving her dad a Christmas gift and not me for example. My poor hubby was so excited for the kids in general, that it wasn''t until later when she had left for a visit out of state with family that he came to the realization only after I talked with him and made him aware. He felt so bad. He also was pissed because he didn''t notice it sooner to call her on it. Nonetheless, we or he alone plans to talk to her about it and not accept the gift. I don''t want her to get me something to pacify me either. If a gift isn''t given out of love and true desire, then it shouldn''t be given, I feel. She is trying her damnest to mess the relationship up my hubby and I have, the one that I have with her brother, and the one I have with our future DIL...that is clear to me and to my therapist.
I tried desperately to reach out to her by giving not only her but all of my kids, personal Christmas letters of love, appreciation, counsel and support for the new year. I poured my heart out to her and did NOT even get an acknowledgment of any of it, but I expected that. My oldest son didn''t respond to it either. Whatever. My other kids loved theirs and told me so. I will be happy with that for now. My oldest daughter is out for destruction and it is mainly targeted at me and me alone.
The thing is, I swear to God I don''t know why...
Because of how much I feel in love with her as my firstborn, I chose to have more children, which I mentioned in her personal letter from me. Because of how humbled I felt when I realized I had this amazing little girl, I grew more excited to have siblings for her. She will never be able to comprehend this kind of love at this rate...it breaks my heart but what can I do that i haven''t done already?
I feel that it things continue at this rate, she will infect others in the family and taint their views of me. Those that are strong, will not be greatly affected, while others will succumb to her influence. I picked up the book "Boundaries" by Drs. McCloud and Townsend for myself for Christmas. Hopefully, I will find solace and insight there to sustain me as I strive to figure out what to do...
Anyways, I wanted to update those of you who have helped me in one way or another. I feel stronger because of you all and owe you my sincerest gratitude. Without your support, and my personal prayers, I would have lacked the guts to call my future DIL to make attempts to set things right. I sincerely want a better relationship with all those I love so for me it was worth the risk...

Thank you again...and Happy New Year...

 

[larussel03]

wow, that is alot to have to go through, esp around the holidays. Good for you for having a talk with your future DIL, it''s so important to have a good relationship with her, and this is a really great step b/c she''ll understand if ever tempted to talk behind your back, that you wouldnt do that to her, and be more willing to talk directly to you. I''m sorry about your daughter though, I wish I could offer some great advice, but unfortunately I cant, I guess the best thing to do is to not give up. Sooner or later what''s really wrong (if it is something concrete) will come out, so dont give up!!

Have a good new year!

 

[movie zombie]

wow! thanks for the update! you are courageous and certainly not a victim in any sense of the word. you have taken responsibility for what you want and have tried to achieve it. there is no reason you have to accept abuse from this daughter and setting boundaries is more than appropriate. and there is no reason you should have her abuse in your own home. you have set the ground work for FDIL. as long as you''re dealing straight with everyone, then let the chips fall. you cannot make the family into one happy unit. but you can lead your life with courage and dignity.....which is exactly what you have demonstrated. what a great way to start the new year!

peace, movie zombie

ps congrats to hubby if belatedly for wanting to return the gift. your daughter is entirely out of line and you and your husband need to show a united front.

 

[DonaBella]

Thanks for the support!

It is a tough road ahead but I am ready. I appreciated what my therapist told me the other day. She said, " You are going to have potentially 9 pairs of inlaws if all your kids marry. Who says you have to ''best buddies'' and get along with all of them?

And you know, she is right. I try too hard to be friends and friendly with all and she constantly reminds me that I do not have to do that, even in my own home. How my kids treat each other, I can control--to a point, then it is up to them on their own to carve their own relationships with each other.

Me saying ''no'' more often is ok, too. I am starting to feel better about that as well. My hubby needs a few nudges with the older daughter now and then and that is hard on me, but we, as a family will be better by setting clear boundaries...and if that means I have to keep reminding my hubby of how dishonorable and disrespectful she is to me or to us, so be it.

I have always said to my kids ''if I have to choose to be your friend or your mother, I will choose to be your mother...'' and I mean that. As heartless as it may sound, if she chooses to exclude me from her life for awhile or for a long, long time, it will be her loss. I have exhausted everything within me to make, create and re-direct our relationship as mother and daughter. I will continue with therapy and hopefully she will,too. I cannot and will not coerce or "fake" a relationship with her or anyone.

Life is too precious to spend oodles of time on the insignificant, the worthless and the futile. I have spent 24 1/2 years mothering and have worked diligently for the past 2 years just on things with her. Too much of my life, my time has been spent extending my hand towards her, only to have it bit, pissed on and burned. Yes, I will keep trying--in therapy--with her, but I have to be honest...I am tired and I am hurt. I have other kids who also need me and love me. They are reciprocrating with love as well. I deserve better than what she is willing to give.

My therapist says I love too easily and do too much for my kids and she is most likely right. She went on to ask me if I really care for my children and their well being. I said of course...I''d die for them. The therapist said,"Then live for them, let them see that you deserve to be happy, too, and let them learn, hurt, to stumble and to grow...real love allows others to fully develop into whom they are meant to be."

I cherish all 9 of my kids...so now, I need to cut the reins on this one a bit and let her be the adult--fully accountable for her own doings. Unless you are a mother, you cannot fully understand the complex feeling of anxiety and relief that brings me. Now, if I can just get my hubby to do the same...

Again, thank you...

 

[MrsFrk]

Deanna you are a brave woman! Kudos to you for sitting down with your future DIL and laying it on the line.
Two of my in laws (with whom I get along fabulously, because I don''t insert myself into their conflicts) are constantly feuding is some regard; I never overtly take sides, but I used to take a side privately.
One person I always considered just plain whacked. Not right in the head.

Then I sat down one day, when the same ol'' drama was playing itself out (this is a mother/daughter thing), I honestly and critically analyzed the situation from BOTH sides. And realized that both had legitimate grievances. This was very disturbing to me, because for 10 years I had always immediately taken the side of one party. I guess my point is that it is human nature to create patterns; behaviours and reactions become entrenched, and we react in a knee-jerk fashion, without even realizing it.

I have issues with my mother; they used to torment me. Then one day my therapist told me this: You don''t have to like your mother to love her. I think the same could be said of a mother: you can love your daughter, while not really liking the person she is right now. 10, 20, 30 years from now, she will be a different person, and she may end up being your best friend. But right now she seems like a selfish, not very nice person toward you, and you need to not let her treat you like crap. Show the courage that you displayed in your dealing with your DIL. Let her know that her behaviour is not okay, and don''t be a party to this awful dynamic. Remember when she was a toddler? Did you reward negative behaviour? Of course not. Well, rolling over and crying in secret while she treats you like crap in your own home is rewarding negative behaviour.

This goes for your son too. They are adults now, and they want it both ways. They want Mommy and Daddy to take care of them, yet they also think they are grown ups who can treat you like dirt. Oh no. They wanna be grown ups? Well cut them loose and let them be grownups. They''ll soon realize ALL that you have done for them. As long as you are being SuperMom to them, and allowing them to treat you badly, why on earth would they change?

I know that this is a heartbreaking thing for you; you have to be strong and stand up for DEANNA! I get the feeling that your feelings have been in last place in this family for many years. Assert yourself and demand the respect you deserve- you raised these children, be confident that at the end of the day they learned the lessons you instilled in them, and will come around and mature into wonderful adults.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 12/31/2005 6:12:34 AM
Author: MrsFrk
Deanna you are a brave woman! Kudos to you for sitting down with your future DIL and laying it on the line.
Two of my in laws (with whom I get along fabulously, because I don''t insert myself into their conflicts) are constantly feuding is some regard; I never overtly take sides, but I used to take a side privately.
One person I always considered just plain whacked. Not right in the head.

Then I sat down one day, when the same ol'' drama was playing itself out (this is a mother/daughter thing), I honestly and critically analyzed the situation from BOTH sides. And realized that both had legitimate grievances. This was very disturbing to me, because for 10 years I had always immediately taken the side of one party. I guess my point is that it is human nature to create patterns; behaviours and reactions become entrenched, and we react in a knee-jerk fashion, without even realizing it.

I have issues with my mother; they used to torment me. Then one day my therapist told me this: You don''t have to like your mother to love her. I think the same could be said of a mother: you can love your daughter, while not really liking the person she is right now. 10, 20, 30 years from now, she will be a different person, and she may end up being your best friend. But right now she seems like a selfish, not very nice person toward you, and you need to not let her treat you like crap. Show the courage that you displayed in your dealing with your DIL. Let her know that her behaviour is not okay, and don''t be a party to this awful dynamic. Remember when she was a toddler? Did you reward negative behaviour? Of course not. Well, rolling over and crying in secret while she treats you like crap in your own home is rewarding negative behaviour.

This goes for your son too. They are adults now, and they want it both ways. They want Mommy and Daddy to take care of them, yet they also think they are grown ups who can treat you like dirt. Oh no. They wanna be grown ups? Well cut them loose and let them be grownups. They''ll soon realize ALL that you have done for them. As long as you are being SuperMom to them, and allowing them to treat you badly, why on earth would they change?

I know that this is a heartbreaking thing for you; you have to be strong and stand up for DEANNA! I get the feeling that your feelings have been in last place in this family for many years. Assert yourself and demand the respect you deserve- you raised these children, be confident that at the end of the day they learned the lessons you instilled in them, and will come around and mature into wonderful adults.

You are 150% correct in more ways than you may ever know...
And, I agree...I need to use the same fortitude with my oldest daughter that I have used with FDIL. Oldest daughter and I are in therapy and that is currently where I feel strongest and safest to exert these demands to my daughter. At the homefront, I feel more often not on solid ground and definitely not strong with her. Part of that is her dad. He just doesn''t see when she plays him or when she is in full acting mode to get what she wants and he falls for it oh so hard. Others have seen her and witnessed her fraudelent behavior to support her cause or position and gasped, so I am not alone in seeing this. Because they do not live her, they are understandably hesitant to counsel my hubby to what they have witnessed.

Yes, the two oldest are legal adults and I had a long, long talk with hubby about this just last night away from home. I stressed to him how much both have stated that they want us to perceive them as responsible and adult. Well then, let''s do just that....Being an adult means holding your tongue when you, as an immature child would not for one thing. Being an adult means thinking of others BEFORE one thinks of oneself. Being an adult honors their parents, EVEN when they do not see things eye to eye.

Oh... and be reassurred, I do very much love my daughter despite how cruel she has been to me. I just can''t like her right now and I am honestly not sure when I will. If she only saw herself as others do when she throws zingers out to me, to her sister, to her dad and to her brothers...she might be shocked...or not.

You stated about me letting her know of her inappropriate behavior...I have and we, my husband and I, have, to no change. That is part of what bugs the sh@#$ out of me. She has been counseled over and over. For a teeny bit, she lies low and appears to get along, but just as the others around me take their sighs of relief, she reverts back to what works for her. And you are again absolutely correct about the fact that I have put myself last. With 9 kids, hubby gone 90%+ of the time especially when they were growing up, I had to shoulder it all and that little time for me to pamper or attend to me personally, emotionally, physically or in any other way. It became automatic to set myself last...which isn''t right. Now, I have re-claimed me. In the last 3 years or so, I enjoy makeup again, shopping for me, buying me more than 1 practical purse, going to the gym, reading a fine book, reading a magazine, watching tv just for me on what I want to watch...do you know how luxuriuos this has been to me???

I broached the subject of our adult kids--especially the oldest two in question--with my hubby as I already stated last night because I must have him on my side to make us be a united front and support each other with them. I detailed my reasoning with him and helped him to see that we HAVE made life a bit too comfortable for them and that has to change. I asked hubby ''do you truly and deeply love them and want the best for them?'' Of course, he said yes. I told him then we need to love them enough to allow them to fall, to get bruised, to bleed and to hurt so they will learn to grow into the kind of people they should be.

For me, that means that unless I am already cooking eggs for breakfast for the family or myself, when #1 son comes down and wants me to cook some for him...I won''t. That may seem trivial but its not. He LOVES the way I cook his breakfast so some damn reason. So...I start there with him. If he needs me to work the flower shop and hasn''t checked with me at least a couple of hours earlier if not the night before, I tell him I am already obligated--whether I am or not. The "old" me would have rearranged everything and just done it and been miserable doing so. Not now. If he feels he might need me, he needs to grant me the courtesy to check the night before or at the latest, two or more hours before, otherwise, all bets are off...
Doing that, I have felt great and he is slowly, very slowly getting the message that I cannot jump, hop, drop what I am doing for him...or anyone.

I am very consciencously trying to portray the way one can and cannot treat me with these small, subtle, yet direct changes. I am doing other things as well at the counsel of my therapist and the therapist who counsels my hubby and I. I defintely respond to hurt as if I were a child again, and that is something I am striving to work through in therapy. I need to stay the adult when I am being attacked and that, for me, is most challenging. I was the protector to my younger brother who was beat up each and every week we went to school and I felt horrible to not be able to save him from the grasp of the bullies who tortured him. I got blamed each and every time for not being the kind of big sister I should have been...my brother''s savior. I know now, as an adult, I was doing all I could at 9, 10 and 11 years old, but the hurt and guilt is still there. That brother has gone on to have severe emotional, mental and psychological problems in life unfortunately.

You are SO right about crying over the negative way she treats me !!! I need to step up and get over that or utilize it to thrust me forward to tell her she shapes up or gets out. At 24, I have no legal responsibility to house her. On this, as of last night, my hubby now agrees. I explained to him that allowing her to verbally, mentally, or emotionally abuse me, she is abusing BOTH of us because I am part of HIM. He is calling a meeting with the oldest four to set everyone straight--not that the other two, 20 1/2 and 19, have done anything, but just as a forewarning. That''s fair I think. Comply by the house rules--or leave. Simple. We have done this in the past, but it time once again now...especially with the new year.

Like I told my husband, I am in survival mode. I will protect me. By doing so, I am preserving the mother the younger children should have and setting a standard for all to obey--like it or not. But most important, I am bent on donning the armour I need to feign myself strong until I truly am.

And I am not holding my breathe for the #1 daughter to like me. I love her for the girl, the young woman she has the potential to be, not the brat she is bold to show me and others she is now. If in 20 years we can talk and be friendly towards one another, that will be gracious and the best. I also want her to someday have a child of her own to drive her nuts...just sweet karma, that''s all...

 

[mightyred]

Just wanted to pop in and say I wish you all the best in 2006 and sincerely hope this year is great for you.

Given all your efforts to work on things I am sure you will reap the benefits either from your daughter or just from inside yourself because you are standing up for yourself and from that comes much! Much hugs.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/2/2006 3:17:03 PM
Author: mightyred
Just wanted to pop in and say I wish you all the best in 2006 and sincerely hope this year is great for you.

Given all your efforts to work on things I am sure you will reap the benefits either from your daughter or just from inside yourself because you are standing up for yourself and from that comes much! Much hugs.

Mightyred, thank you...that means alot. This year has to be better, I just know it...I still plan on standing my ground on what is right for all, not just me. I thank God I have a therapist for me privately or I''d lose it...The family therapist will have her hands full with just my family!
One thing is for sure...no one can say I haven''t made attempts to solidify my family in a positive direction. They may not like it or they may rear up against it, but nonetheless, I am still queen of this family and I can be just as stubborn as anyone else if there is a positive result awaiting us...and there is. Right now, #1 son and #1 daughter are too blinded to see.
Loving them does not mean allowing them to sit on me or thwart my perceptions or efforts. Now I understand why God made sure I was pretty stubborn. I really need it now...and thank God I have Him on my side...

 

[movie zombie]

you wrote this above: "Like I told my husband, I am in survival mode. I will protect me. By doing so, I am preserving the mother the younger children should have and setting a standard for all to obey--like it or not. But most important, I am bent on donning the armour I need to feign myself strong until I truly am."

please remember this when the ''adult'' daughter tries to tear you down. and, yes, abide by the house rules or get out. like the lady said: i don''t have to like the things you say and do but i do love you....bye bye and enjoy your new apartment.

peace, movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

I wonder if maybe you are just the target of her unhappiness? Kinda like "you always hurt the ones you love" - it''s safer. Maybe moving out of the house will be a good thing - with a little independence comes responsibility - understanding more the ramifications of actions. Is she financially capable of moving out? If not, maybe give her a little wings for help. Make it finite. One of my friends did this and it worked out. The poor child didn''t understand the whole rent, deposits, getting her phone turned on, etc. It scared the death out of her & couldn''t face it alone.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/3/2006 3:27:04 AM
Author: movie zombie
you wrote this above: ''Like I told my husband, I am in survival mode. I will protect me. By doing so, I am preserving the mother the younger children should have and setting a standard for all to obey--like it or not. But most important, I am bent on donning the armour I need to feign myself strong until I truly am.''

please remember this when the ''adult'' daughter tries to tear you down. and, yes, abide by the house rules or get out. like the lady said: i don''t have to like the things you say and do but i do love you....bye bye and enjoy your new apartment.

peace, movie zombie

Thanks for reminding me what I said I need to do...and...I will--with both #1 daughter and #1 son. Both are stirring the pot of grief, accusations and contention in our home. #1 son really tried his best to mess with my head yesterday over jealousy of #2 daughter and her lack of helping with family duties, as if he were her father or something. I held my own, not giving in to emotion--which I had a whole lot of, I might add. Part of me wanted to put him over my knee and give him a swat!

I practiced "active listening" with him, repeating back to him what I felt he wanted me to hear so he knew I was listening...but not budging from my position either. He freakin got more and more upset with me, asking me why I was favoring #2 daughter. He argued with her, cornering her emotionally, causing her to cry and spew a few curse words--which were well warranted, though I held my tongue, which was hard cuz I could have added to her list. Then he has the audacity to ask her why she is defensive???

I notice he is more likely to have "words" with me when hubby is not around. My hubby was in San Diego for work and is due back tonight. When my hubby did call last night, I didn''t share the contention of the day until he asked what had happened. He could tell something had cuz of my voice. I shared the situation and my husband was livid. We both have come to the conclusion that if #1 daughter and #1 son cannot live harmoniously in our home with the others, they need to leave. Simple. In all frankness, if they hate living here so damn much they would have left a l-o-n-g time ago...and they haven''t so it is becoming clear finally to my husband that their time here is quickly expiring.

We, my husband and I, have decided that we will call a mtg involving the eldest 3 kids. Since they moan and groan over time and place, we will leave the deciding of that to be decided by them so that all we have to do is show up. #1 daughter teaches at our studio so we have an idea of her schedule, #1 son runs the day to day stuff of our flower shop so know when he is off work, and #2 daughter works at a local restaurant as a server so her schedule is the most difficult. This idea of leaving the scheduing to the adult kids was my husband''s so we''ll see if it works or not. Husband is going as far as to tell 3 oldest kids that they either work together and show up at this mtg or they leave our home immediately. No special treatment. Please pray for us that it works cuz we, as parents, are at our wits end on this and I still haven''t heard back from the family therapist!!!

 

[movie zombie]

you are starting the new year off right: getting a grip on the situation. sounds good that hubby thought to have the 3 eldest set the time and date...or leave immediately. i''d set a time limit on how long they can stall. are you willing to give them a week, two weeks, a month to set a date? perhaps a message such as ''if there has not been a convenient date set for all parties to meet within one week and said meeting does not take place within one week of that, all 3 of you are out, not just the one who is stalling, can''t make time, or calls to cancel''.

i think they call it tough love......not fun and hard to do with someone you do love, but it is necessary at times. besides, you don''t want the younger kids to grow up and think they can get away with the same stuff.



peace, movie zombie

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/3/2006 11:56:20 AM
Author: fire&ice
I wonder if maybe you are just the target of her unhappiness? Kinda like ''you always hurt the ones you love'' - it''s safer. Maybe moving out of the house will be a good thing - with a little independence comes responsibility - understanding more the ramifications of actions. Is she financially capable of moving out? If not, maybe give her a little wings for help. Make it finite. One of my friends did this and it worked out. The poor child didn''t understand the whole rent, deposits, getting her phone turned on, etc. It scared the death out of her & couldn''t face it alone.

Fire&ice, I DO believe she is unhappy...actually, quite lonely and miserable. Alot of her friends are hooked up, going out with just one guy, engaged, going to be engaged, living with someone, married or pregnant and married. Her whole existence is spent with trying to juggle work(she teaches dance at our dance studio and she runs it on a daily basis), school, work, a little dating, or and work. Do you see what I mean? She is terribly unhappy, but its not anyone''s fault but that''s the way it is. She could go out more, but she''s picky and afraid of being hurt(she was previously engaged about 1 1/2 year ago and has had a hard time moving on and letting anyone in). She has a distinct pattern: anyone she lives with, she evidentually has a disagreement with and then they sever the friendship, she moves out and back home, never to speak to them again....ever. Despte our disagreements, I love her and worry about her alot, but I also have relinquished trying to help her move forward. That would not be appreciated and be more damaging than helpful.
I know she is more than capable of moving out, but she will beg to differ. WE pay her so I am well aware of what she can and cannot afford housing wise. ALso, if she really wanted to move out, she would have with OR without a roommate. She recently went out of state to see family for the holidays, stopping in Vegas to gamble--both going there and coming home. After coming home, she left the next day to LA for a New Years Eve party with a hotel room to go to afterwards. The problem is her dear hold on her Papa, my husband. I discussed this very thing with my bestfriend just today. My friend has known me and my family for 11 1/2 years and has seen my daughter in good and bad times. She also has seen how #1 daughter has a major hold on her dear Pops. My GF''s hubby is also my hubby''s BF and we have two other friends--husband and wife--who have noticed the manipulation as well. Good grief, my own BIL--my hubby''s dear brother--has seen firsthand how #1 daughter disrespects her dad and is frustrated by his lil bro''s willingness to allow her to continue living here despite it all. I have decided to open this box in therapy to dig into why he allows her to verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abuse not just him but me as well.For a brilliant man, my husband seems unbelieveably unaware of how damaging she has been.
You need to love your kids enough to allow them to fall, bleed and hurt a little in order to grow. I know this response is long and I apologize, but its just plain true.
I am more frustrated than you can possibly imagine....

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/3/2006 3:32:42 PM
Author: movie zombie
you are starting the new year off right: getting a grip on the situation. sounds good that hubby thought to have the 3 eldest set the time and date...or leave immediately. i''d set a time limit on how long they can stall. are you willing to give them a week, two weeks, a month to set a date? perhaps a message such as ''if there has not been a convenient date set for all parties to meet within one week and said meeting does not take place within one week of that, all 3 of you are out, not just the one who is stalling, can''t make time, or calls to cancel''.

i think they call it tough love......not fun and hard to do with someone you do love, but it is necessary at times. besides, you don''t want the younger kids to grow up and think they can get away with the same stuff.



peace, movie zombie

Moviezombie,
You are SO on the money! It will take me constantly reminding my husband to support what he said he was going to do, blah, blah, blah...so it actually happens. Its sad, I know, but he becomes so involved with his work and other distractions/obligations, that he forgets what he said to me or to the kids.
Yesterday, my eldest son came in the door around noon, ready to spew acid on me and #2 daughter. He really was mad at me and my husband for what he called "unfair standards" that he and #1 daughter had to live up to and #2 daughter has shirked, in his opinion. Where this came from, I do not know. I can only think that since he has formed an "alliance" (his words, not mine!) with #1 daughter, she was caused him to get riled up over issues that he has no say so over...parenting decisions. I did my damndest to smother his attempts at lashing out at his younger sister but then he not only was spewing at her but also me. It was a fiasco...

#2 daughter has been sick with a head cold all weekend and had even missed work due to her deteriorating health, so on the advice of a dr., she got a note from the dr., dropped it off at work and came home to sleep off her ailments. #1 son came barreling in the door, pounding on her bdroom door for her to wake up and then he proceeded to verbally attack her. She wasn''t even fully awake, for crying out loud! She was quickly reduced to tears and left the family room to her room, slamming the door...like I blame her!

I was so mad at him!!!

Nothing I said made things better. I tried to dispel his obvious out of control behavior with ''active listening'' that the therapist asked us to do, to no avail.
He got more and more belligerent, so I told him I was still his mom, irregardless of how old or big he was and to just shut up. He evidentually shared more stupid comments before finally leaving. I have not spoken to him since and he has wisely stayeed away at a friend''s house.
My husband got home from work in San Diego tonight so we were discussing how this horrible situation has become one now that has divided our family. Unfortunately and understandably, hubby is imminently concerned with who would run the flower shop we own that #1 son handles on a daily basis since we plan to force him to move out. OMG!!! I realize that is a concern, but OMG--what about the dissolution of our family??? Am I wrong here???

I called our family therapist and she has been so busy that she has yet to return my call and its 9:42pm here in CA as I write this!!! She is supposed to call around 10pm or so so we can ask for her counsel on this volatile situation. My personal therapist called me within 10 minutes of me leaving a message earlier today and she told me that if I had not concurred already on my own, she was recommending #1 son be evicted, effect immediately, with permission for him to take what he needs for now and come back this weekend and take the rest of his stuff. Gone. Finite. My therapist went on to say if he makes a threat or becomes physical in ANY manner, to call the police...
I am sad, scared, and devastated. #2 daughter was such a basket case this morning, crying out of control, threatening to cash out her savings and get out--anywhere--that I cancelled what I had planned for the day and took her, along with my girlfriend, to get #2 daughter to the phone store for a new cell phone, and to the mall to shop for jeans. I just couldn''t leave her and risk her selfish older sister and volatile big brother destroying what is left of her emotionally.
I apologize for going on and on...its been a long, long day...Please, pray for my family and that the therapist might come to our rescue with wise counsel...I honestly do not know what to do now...

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Deanna- I have been following your threads (from the begining, I still remember your upgrade frustrations) and first of all I want to say what a selfless, loving, kind woman you seem. You seem to give everything you have to your children (I still cannot believe you have 9!), marriage, and family businesses. You kind of remind me of my own mother. She worries too much and hardly ever thinks about herself. This of course results in stress. With all this being said I wonder how the other member of your families feel about this situation. Does your son and daughter #1 WANT to have a good relationship with daughter #2. Unfortunately you cannot force people to change. No amount of threats or therapy can make people change. I fear that this whole situation might be out of your control. I do believe however with time they will learn to love each other (maybe not like). I obviously do not know their ages or past history (there is something that obviously has happened to cause this). I do not think your son is stupid enough to damage his working situation with you (don''t cut off your nose to spite your face sort of thing). I think he needs that job MORE than you need him. You can find someone else to run it for you. And you are right. You are his mother no matter what and deserve his respect. As hard as it seems now I think accepting the things you cannot change will help your own morale.

 

[movie zombie]

i''m with the therapist: out now. it is your home. you have a right to a sane household. your other children have a right to grow up sane. being a mother does not mean you have to be a door mat. if they can''t abide by the ground rules: out. and i agree that your son needs the job more than you need him in that job. he''s holding you and your husband hostage. you are paying a price [and so are the other children] that is unreasonable. hire someone to take his place if need be. someone who will treat you with respect as their employer.

its hard not to feel guilty as a parent.....what did i do for them to turn out this way?! well, we all make mistakes along the way and the end we have to still realize that our children make their own decisions and we have to accept that. if their decision is to be total asses, then they should bear the consequences for it. why should you and the other children?

classic emotional [and possible physical] abuse, imo. only this time its the kids doing it to the parents.

i worked with a woman that was in a situation like this. her daugher [over 20 years old] would actually hit her! yet she''d continue to take it because of guilt she felt for divorcing the father, etc.

life is too short and precious to be around people that are abusive.

peace, movie zombie

 

[MrsFrk]

Oh my gosh. Deanna, that is the limit. ENOUGH!

Here''s the thing...even if you DID treat daughter #2 and held her to different standards (I''m not saying you do, just hypothetically) GUESS WHAT!? That is your right. You and your husband are the parents, not your brat son. He has ZERO right to weigh in on how you raise the rest of your children. You need to cut him off. He''s an adult, he has no right to come and poison the air of your house like that.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 1:19:51 AM
Author: Tacori E-ring
Deanna- I have been following your threads (from the begining, I still remember your upgrade frustrations) and first of all I want to say what a selfless, loving, kind woman you seem. You seem to give everything you have to your children (I still cannot believe you have 9!), marriage, and family businesses. You kind of remind me of my own mother. She worries too much and hardly ever thinks about herself. This of course results in stress. With all this being said I wonder how the other member of your families feel about this situation. Does your son and daughter #1 WANT to have a good relationship with daughter #2. Unfortunately you cannot force people to change. No amount of threats or therapy can make people change. I fear that this whole situation might be out of your control. I do believe however with time they will learn to love each other (maybe not like). I obviously do not know their ages or past history (there is something that obviously has happened to cause this). I do not think your son is stupid enough to damage his working situation with you (don''t cut off your nose to spite your face sort of thing). I think he needs that job MORE than you need him. You can find someone else to run it for you. And you are right. You are his mother no matter what and deserve his respect. As hard as it seems now I think accepting the things you cannot change will help your own morale.

Oh my...I started tearing up at the fact that you have been following my threads...

...First of all, thank you...really. You raise good questions, ones I have had in my own mind...Does son #1 and daughter #1 want a relationship with daughter #2? If I am going on past history of son with #2 daughter, I would say yes but at this time, it sure as hell does not reflect that. In all honesty, because of the damage that son #1 has caused, if I was #2 daughter, I would be extremely hesitant to believe him if he was to do a complete 380 and act all sweet, remorseful and emotional in a positive way. No way would I fall for that...but that''s me...and I cannot answer for her. #2 daughter is so incredibly and deeply hurt. Son has no clue what he''s done and that''s the tragic part of all of this. He has been cavorting with #1 daughter and that could have a bearing on a few reasons he came unhinged. The therapist I see said from the description of what I told her, she is sure he is in some sort of personal internal torture/guilt thing over something he has done and it has shaken him to his core so he is spewing at those closest to him with such offending verbal acid due to his personal misery.
The thing that is not settling with me is the fact that hubby appears to be somewhat more shaken up over son leaving the shop. Unfortunately, the shop has not been doing as well as we had hoped for some time now. The previous owner lied to us about the revenues it was bringing in, and what accounts it did have, quite a few of those she coerced them to her new shop further away, so having someone outside of the family is all but not possible. The responsibility of running it would fall on me and I cannot do that effectively and my other motherly duties. No way. I was helping out on a part time basis so I could be available for the family overall, but to run it? No, I am sorry, but that is not going to work.
I know son has been stressed over money that the shop has not brought in and he has not had consistent paychecks for awhile and I have been concerned about that with him engaged and all, but things have changed now. I no longer will stand for the abuse strewn at me and his sister. Irregardless of what even my husband may say, I won''t allow it anymore. I did expect the therapist to call as was promised.

She didn''t call and I am so devastated...

 

[MrsFrk]

Your job as parents is to prepare your children for adulthood; right now your oldest son and daughter think they are adults, yet you support both of them. They need to be booted from the nest...they need to get real jobs, not with mummy and daddy, and learn that there are consequences when you mouth off to a boss and act like a jerk.

I raised my sister- I had to gently but firmly eject her from the nest. She was way too comfy at home, living off of me and my husband. We charged her nominal rent, but it was like blood from a stone...yet she always had $$$ for movies, clothes, new sheets. So out she went. And she just blossomed once we kicked her out.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 1:59:00 AM
Author: movie zombie
i''m with the therapist: out now. it is your home. you have a right to a sane household. your other children have a right to grow up sane. being a mother does not mean you have to be a door mat. if they can''t abide by the ground rules: out. and i agree that your son needs the job more than you need him in that job. he''s holding you and your husband hostage. you are paying a price [and so are the other children] that is unreasonable. hire someone to take his place if need be. someone who will treat you with respect as their employer.

its hard not to feel guilty as a parent.....what did i do for them to turn out this way?! well, we all make mistakes along the way and the end we have to still realize that our children make their own decisions and we have to accept that. if their decision is to be total asses, then they should bear the consequences for it. why should you and the other children?

classic emotional [and possible physical] abuse, imo. only this time its the kids doing it to the parents.

i worked with a woman that was in a situation like this. her daugher [over 20 years old] would actually hit her! yet she''d continue to take it because of guilt she felt for divorcing the father, etc.

life is too short and precious to be around people that are abusive.

peace, movie zombie

Thanks so much for that support, moviezombie...I am just so tired of hurting, watching my family members be subject to abuse of #1 son or #1 daughter...The thing is...#1 son hasn''t been this way all the time, in fact, the last time he was a arrogant horse''s ass was when he was a teenager, then he left to Chile for a church mission, came home, was sweet, quiet, mature, loving for about 6 to 10 months or more. It wasn''t until the last 4 months that he has been a total jerk, abusive with me verbally and sassy.
He has been straight forward the last 3 weeks about the fact that he has formed an alliance with #1 daughter and has had "his eyes opened to who I really am", meaning he has come to perceive me being the victimizer to his sister--which, if you have been reading over my past responses, has been victimizing ME.
I am majorly discouraged and disappointed in the therapist. Her secretary gave her my 3, 4 or 5 messages, stating the nature of my call, and I was promised a return phone call last night...but no call came. I waited and waited until finally at 11:30pm Pacific coast time, I finally realized my waiting was in vain.
I cannot find the words to express how upset, worried and scared I am at this moment...

P.S. To make matters worse, I just got word that a dear friend who has been fighting cancer died and her funeral is on Friday of this week. She had been fighting the disease for 20+ years and recently it came back with a vengance...OMG...I am relieved she is not suffering, but...omg...

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 2:31:06 AM
Author: MrsFrk
Oh my gosh. Deanna, that is the limit. ENOUGH!

Here''s the thing...even if you DID treat daughter #2 and held her to different standards (I''m not saying you do, just hypothetically) GUESS WHAT!? That is your right. You and your husband are the parents, not your brat son. He has ZERO right to weigh in on how you raise the rest of your children. You need to cut him off. He''s an adult, he has no right to come and poison the air of your house like that.

I totally agree and that''s just it...I KNOW this and WANT him and #1 daughter to leave to actually be forced to REALLY grow up, but its my hubby who has--in my opinion--made it too easy for them NOT to leave. Hey, I left home at 18 years old, moved into an apartment, and never and I mean NEVER moved back in with Mom and Dad and I did just fine. Sure, I struggled, I had some tough times and had to work 2 jobs to eat and pay bills AND go to college...but I survived and they would too. No, its not me not wanting them to grow up and out of here...its more my husband not allowing me to evict them. And I am not talking me being exceptionally harsh when I say "evict."

Just before sitting down at my PC to write this, I instructed my husband that he is not to leave until son #1 leaves the house. Sometime duiring the night, son came home and so did #2 daughter and I will be damned if hubby goes to work and leaves me here to confront son again...alone. NO WAY...

If needed, I will call the police this time. My younger daughter spent the better part of yesterday morning distraught and crying and I will not have a repeat of 2 days ago!

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 2:55:02 AM
Author: MrsFrk
Your job as parents is to prepare your children for adulthood; right now your oldest son and daughter think they are adults, yet you support both of them. They need to be booted from the nest...they need to get real jobs, not with mummy and daddy, and learn that there are consequences when you mouth off to a boss and act like a jerk.

I raised my sister- I had to gently but firmly eject her from the nest. She was way too comfy at home, living off of me and my husband. We charged her nominal rent, but it was like blood from a stone...yet she always had $$$ for movies, clothes, new sheets. So out she went. And she just blossomed once we kicked her out.

MrsFrk, I have been caught in such a tough spot...I desperately want the two oldest to leave, not just for my benefit or even theirs, but more for the other children who are forced to stay here and be subject to all of this contention! For THEM, I am going head to head with my husband over this. For THEM,--which includes my younger daughter who is barely scraping by with a restaurant server job and going to school--I am pumped up and ready to leave myself if husband does not back me up...and for their sakes, I''d take the younger ones with me!

I do not honestly believe my smart, but not aware husband would really let that happen. Yes, he is seriously dense to the damage that #1 daughter has done and yes, he is gone alot which makes it easy for him to rely on #1 son to run the flower shop, but at the cost of breaking up his family? No...I cannot believe he''d allow that to happen without a serious fight to choose--if he has to, between me and the #1 daughter...gosh, I pray I am as right on this as I believe to be...

 

[DonaBella]

Update...I got a call from therapist''s secretary. Apparently, yesterday was a disaster for her as well...she was in session until 11:30pm! I have been asked to see her today at 1pm so I am going to try to take #2 daughter with me to have her share what happened. Also, hubby asked son to stay at a friend''s hosue from today on until we have been counseled differently. He has further been instructed not to speak to us--me and #2 daughter--or seek us out in any way.

I wanted to share this before starting to get ready for the therapy visit...

Thanks to all for your thoughts, views and comments...all is greatly appreciated...

 

[decodelighted]

Deanna,
Please take this for what it''s worth ... I''m not a therapist or trained in anyway other than the benefit of years of therapy ... but from reading further about this situation as it''s progressed I''ve realized that some of the family tension maybe be coming from the "over-intwinement" of adult children in family businesses. Their hostility & aggression and bad behavior is probably rebellion and almost an innate way to escape the bonds of the family. Kids have to grow up & leave. Kids that feel "trapped" consciously or unconsciously in family dynamics/businesses/etc ACT OUT. They might not even realize why they''re doing what they''re doing. It sounds like your husband is very upset they might "leave" the family businesses to the business'' detriment. Seems to me it would be best if they were out, way out ...and after failing/succeeding/living on their own - with no family obligations/judgements/history to ACT OUT ON ... hopefully they''d come back to the fold, whole people, with less of an ax to grind, and more appreciative of all you''ve given them in their lives. I think you feel this is true, but need your husband to get on board. Hopefully the family therapist will have good counsel & life will get easier for everyone involved in 2006!!

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 1/4/2006 2:21:46 PM
Author: decodelighted
Deanna,
Please take this for what it''s worth ... I''m not a therapist or trained in anyway other than the benefit of years of therapy ... but from reading further about this situation as it''s progressed I''ve realized that some of the family tension maybe be coming from the ''over-intwinement'' of adult children in family businesses. Their hostility & aggression and bad behavior is probably rebellion and almost an innate way to escape the bonds of the family. Kids have to grow up & leave. Kids that feel ''trapped'' consciously or unconsciously in family dynamics/businesses/etc ACT OUT. They might not even realize why they''re doing what they''re doing. It sounds like your husband is very upset they might ''leave'' the family businesses to the business'' detriment. Seems to me it would be best if they were out, way out ...and after failing/succeeding/living on their own - with no family obligations/judgements/history to ACT OUT ON ... hopefully they''d come back to the fold, whole people, with less of an ax to grind, and more appreciative of all you''ve given them in their lives. I think you feel this is true, but need your husband to get on board. Hopefully the family therapist will have good counsel & life will get easier for everyone involved in 2006!!

interesting: perhaps son wants out of his work obligation so he can do his own thing?

another thought: while you want the older ''adult'' kids to have a ''relationship'', they''ve got to want it and do the work to make it happen. perhaps you''re working harder than they are.....

peace, movie zombie

 

[pebbles]

Deanna --

I too have been following your threads for a while and I am so sorry that this kind of tension is going on right now in your family. It''s hard enough dealing with daughter #1 and her issues, but for son #1 to join forces, I am so afraid you are going to come to a breaking point.

I am not a therapist, but after reading that your son is running the day to day operations of your flower shop, I agree with what Decodelighted said about your son may be acting out because of the intertwinement of work and family.

My family''s situation wasn''t exactly the same, but looking back, there are a lot of similar aspects to your family. My dad was my grandfather''s only son. My grandfather owned a hardware store for many years. My mom said when she was dating my dad back in high school, his dad always made a big deal about how his son would carry on and take over the family business after graduation. My dad wanted no part of the family business, but didn''t know how to tell his dad. One day right after graduation, my dad joined the Army. My grandfather was pissed to say the least. My dad did his 4 year stint and when he came home he was still expected to take over the hardware store. He didn''t want to -- he wanted to do his own thing. My mom asked my dad over and over why he couldn''t be honest with his father and tell him he didn''t want to do it. My dad never had a good explanation for why he was afraid to be honest with his dad. A few years after my parents were married and before I was born my dad did take over the hardware store. My mom said it was the most miserable 5 years of their marriage. My dad was like a different person. He hated the hardware store, always was in a bad mood, and it was straining his and my mom''s relationship. My grandfather was a hard nosed guy and very hard to work for. My dad''s relationship with his dad was awful. My dad had a lot of resentment bottled up inside. Things were so bad that him and my mom did not go to any family functions on his side of the family for many years. He couldn''t separate work and family.

Then one day my mom said to him either leave the hardware store or we''re through. She couldn''t take any more herself. I''m not sure exactly what happened, but my dad did get the courage to tell his father that he was not taking over the store any longer. My mom said that my grandfather did not speak to him for quite a while about this, and it took years for them to get their relationship back on track.

For whatever reason, and I have seen it time and time again with other family members, many men have a very difficult relationship with their dads. There is always an underlying desire to please their fathers, even if it is a career choice, for example, that they don''t want. Sometimes, the more distant the father was, the more the son tries to please. Like my dad, I think many sons are afraid to talk to their fathers heart to heart. Fear of rejection? Fear of looking like a failure? I''m not sure what the answer is, but there are dynamics at work that I will probably never understand being a woman.

I''m not trying to be nosy, but how is son #1''s relationship with your husband? Does he always try to please him? Are they able to talk, or is your husband away so much that your son feels like he can''t let his feelings be known? Maybe your son really doesn''t want to run the flower shop, and has a lot of conflict about it. He feels as though he can''t talk to his father, so he takes it out on you because he CAN talk to YOU. Your husband would probably (I''m guessing) never let your son treat him the way he treats you. That was kind of like what happened with my dad and his father. He couldn''t talk to his father so it took everything out on my mom and his mom.

It seems obvious son #1 is deeply hurting. He doesn''t know how to vent those feelings, so he takes it out on you. And he knows that forming an alliance with daughter #1 is the easiest way to really hurt you. Children know how to push their parents'' buttons.

I agree that maybe having both son #1 and daughter #1 out of the house -- for a while -- is the best solution. You all need a cooling down period. Your other kids do not need to be subject to all the emotion and hurt that is going on. I have two toddlers, and it kills me when I have to use "tough love" but it is really for their own good. Granted, I have never been through what you are experiencing, but I know it would kill me to have a rotten relationship with my kids.

I hope your therapist can give you some good advice. I think all of us here on PS are hoping that things get better soon. We are all here for you.

 

[fire&ice]

Simply put - and I''m only a casual observer - your lives are way too entangled - I almost feel the stiffeling effect. The only way to move forward is too take a step back from all the entanglement. I realize the logistics aren''t going to be easy; but, what you are experiencing in the present is worse.

I sincerely wish you luck in trying to sort all this out.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 2:21:46 PM
Author: decodelighted
Deanna,
Please take this for what it''s worth ... I''m not a therapist or trained in anyway other than the benefit of years of therapy ... but from reading further about this situation as it''s progressed I''ve realized that some of the family tension maybe be coming from the ''over-intwinement'' of adult children in family businesses. Their hostility & aggression and bad behavior is probably rebellion and almost an innate way to escape the bonds of the family. Kids have to grow up & leave. Kids that feel ''trapped'' consciously or unconsciously in family dynamics/businesses/etc ACT OUT. They might not even realize why they''re doing what they''re doing. It sounds like your husband is very upset they might ''leave'' the family businesses to the business'' detriment. Seems to me it would be best if they were out, way out ...and after failing/succeeding/living on their own - with no family obligations/judgements/history to ACT OUT ON ... hopefully they''d come back to the fold, whole people, with less of an ax to grind, and more appreciative of all you''ve given them in their lives. I think you feel this is true, but need your husband to get on board. Hopefully the family therapist will have good counsel & life will get easier for everyone involved in 2006!!

Oh Deco, I appreciate your views and comments SO very much and I do honestly feel they have merit. My hubby is an entreperneur of sorts and wants to teach the kids to get off their @#$ and learn how to make their way in this world, but his way may or may NOT be their way and I have ALWAYS felt that. Hubby has always wanted his own local business, which he has with the dance studio. We purchased the flower shop which is 5 minutes from our home as a way to provide another source of revenue, yes, but also for son #1 to develop his business skills. Needless to say, the business was fraudualently represented and it has been hit and miss, barely paying the bills.
Hubby is so upset with himself for buying this business and he has advertised it for sale, but in all honesty, it will take time to sell under current conditions. The one thing I learned with selling a business is you need to make it look ''saleable''. We have painted the interior bright, happy colors of a lemon yellow with 2 walls that are a subdued red. My hubby has taken down shaky shelves and put up nice ones in better locations. Overall, the cosmetic appearance is much more appeasing. We have tried different strategies for advertising, got on the vendor list for the local high school for upcoming dances, and I am making contacts with point people in dr offices, etc., for attempts at an account or two for ongoing services...but things are moving slowly.

Valentine''s Day and Mother''s Day are super busy and fanatical holidays for most florists so that is what we are gearing up for next.
I more than agree that the growth achieved when one leaves home is well worth the bumps and bruises along the way, strengthening the person who grows through the experiences that adult life has to offer and I crave that for my kids. Acting out? Definitely, in my opinion. No arguements. The biggest reasons that they are as immersed as they are??? My husband. He is WAY more than frugal when it comes to paying someone else to do what he perceives one of our kids could and should do.
For instance, daughter #2 became ill just before the holidays(she has an chronic immunity problem--she has CFS=Chronic Fatique Syndrome) holidays so I had to fill in at the dance studio since she was not able to answer the phones and be in the front office. I stayed until my hubby arrived which was 5pm. He normally does not even arrive home until 7 or 7:30pm most evenings so he left work early to be at our studio instead of having someone else manage the front office. To me, this is one example of his frugality. Now, I am not completely knocking him. Because he was watched our funds so well, we have retirement accounts, IRAs--2 different kinds for he and I, and he is very consciencious of his personal spending so he definitely has made this attribute of his work for us as well.
In all frankness, yes, #1 son needs to leave the shop. Period. It is draining him. He is in college as well and attends night classes, studies and tries to fit in his FI. I plan to discuss this more at a later date after we abolish the current problem...

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 2:39:23 PM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 1/4/2006 2:21:46 PM
Author: decodelighted
Deanna,
Please take this for what it''s worth ... I''m not a therapist or trained in anyway other than the benefit of years of therapy ... but from reading further about this situation as it''s progressed I''ve realized that some of the family tension maybe be coming from the ''over-intwinement'' of adult children in family businesses. Their hostility & aggression and bad behavior is probably rebellion and almost an innate way to escape the bonds of the family. Kids have to grow up & leave. Kids that feel ''trapped'' consciously or unconsciously in family dynamics/businesses/etc ACT OUT. They might not even realize why they''re doing what they''re doing. It sounds like your husband is very upset they might ''leave'' the family businesses to the business'' detriment. Seems to me it would be best if they were out, way out ...and after failing/succeeding/living on their own - with no family obligations/judgements/history to ACT OUT ON ... hopefully they''d come back to the fold, whole people, with less of an ax to grind, and more appreciative of all you''ve given them in their lives. I think you feel this is true, but need your husband to get on board. Hopefully the family therapist will have good counsel & life will get easier for everyone involved in 2006!!

interesting: perhaps son wants out of his work obligation so he can do his own thing?

another thought: while you want the older ''adult'' kids to have a ''relationship'', they''ve got to want it and do the work to make it happen. perhaps you''re working harder than they are.....

peace, movie zombie

MV, you are so on top of this...the question that has stayed with me all day is if son #1 is so harsh and hurtful to sister #2, why on earth would she want to continue ANY kind of relationship with him??? His actions dictate otherwise. And also maybe more true than even I want to believe is the fact that, yes, I would like my kids to at least tolerate one another and respect one another. If not good friends, than just respect one another''s differences and leave it at that. Like my hubby said to #1 daughter in treating me..."Think of mom as one of the dance moms and put on your polite face and act appropriately if that is what it takes to not make cutting remarks that are disrespectful." Sad but true, this perhaps is what she will have to do with me. Well, maybe son #1 needs to perceive his family members with the same respect he gives customers and not strive to lash out and hold his tongue. I cautioned him to be perceived as "mature" one must act "mature" which to me he definitely was not. I went on to tell him that just because he thinks of something--whether it be funny, tacky, rude or whatever--does NOT mean he has to have mouth diahrrea and let it explode out of him. Have some restraint! Of course, none of this was received very well.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 1/4/2006 4:55:16 PM
Author: pebbles
Deanna --

I too have been following your threads for a while and I am so sorry that this kind of tension is going on right now in your family. It''s hard enough dealing with daughter #1 and her issues, but for son #1 to join forces, I am so afraid you are going to come to a breaking point.

I am not a therapist, but after reading that your son is running the day to day operations of your flower shop, I agree with what Decodelighted said about your son may be acting out because of the intertwinement of work and family.

My family''s situation wasn''t exactly the same, but looking back, there are a lot of similar aspects to your family. My dad was my grandfather''s only son. My grandfather owned a hardware store for many years. My mom said when she was dating my dad back in high school, his dad always made a big deal about how his son would carry on and take over the family business after graduation. My dad wanted no part of the family business, but didn''t know how to tell his dad. One day right after graduation, my dad joined the Army. My grandfather was pissed to say the least. My dad did his 4 year stint and when he came home he was still expected to take over the hardware store. He didn''t want to -- he wanted to do his own thing. My mom asked my dad over and over why he couldn''t be honest with his father and tell him he didn''t want to do it. My dad never had a good explanation for why he was afraid to be honest with his dad. A few years after my parents were married and before I was born my dad did take over the hardware store. My mom said it was the most miserable 5 years of their marriage. My dad was like a different person. He hated the hardware store, always was in a bad mood, and it was straining his and my mom''s relationship. My grandfather was a hard nosed guy and very hard to work for. My dad''s relationship with his dad was awful. My dad had a lot of resentment bottled up inside. Things were so bad that him and my mom did not go to any family functions on his side of the family for many years. He couldn''t separate work and family.

Then one day my mom said to him either leave the hardware store or we''re through. She couldn''t take any more herself. I''m not sure exactly what happened, but my dad did get the courage to tell his father that he was not taking over the store any longer. My mom said that my grandfather did not speak to him for quite a while about this, and it took years for them to get their relationship back on track.

For whatever reason, and I have seen it time and time again with other family members, many men have a very difficult relationship with their dads. There is always an underlying desire to please their fathers, even if it is a career choice, for example, that they don''t want. Sometimes, the more distant the father was, the more the son tries to please. Like my dad, I think many sons are afraid to talk to their fathers heart to heart. Fear of rejection? Fear of looking like a failure? I''m not sure what the answer is, but there are dynamics at work that I will probably never understand being a woman.

I''m not trying to be nosy, but how is son #1''s relationship with your husband? Does he always try to please him? Are they able to talk, or is your husband away so much that your son feels like he can''t let his feelings be known? Maybe your son really doesn''t want to run the flower shop, and has a lot of conflict about it. He feels as though he can''t talk to his father, so he takes it out on you because he CAN talk to YOU. Your husband would probably (I''m guessing) never let your son treat him the way he treats you. That was kind of like what happened with my dad and his father. He couldn''t talk to his father so it took everything out on my mom and his mom.

It seems obvious son #1 is deeply hurting. He doesn''t know how to vent those feelings, so he takes it out on you. And he knows that forming an alliance with daughter #1 is the easiest way to really hurt you. Children know how to push their parents'' buttons.

I agree that maybe having both son #1 and daughter #1 out of the house -- for a while -- is the best solution. You all need a cooling down period. Your other kids do not need to be subject to all the emotion and hurt that is going on. I have two toddlers, and it kills me when I have to use ''tough love'' but it is really for their own good. Granted, I have never been through what you are experiencing, but I know it would kill me to have a rotten relationship with my kids.

I hope your therapist can give you some good advice. I think all of us here on PS are hoping that things get better soon. We are all here for you.

Pebbles...omg...thank you for sharing your story...and for the questions which is not being nosy to me. Heck, if I didn''t really want anyone''s input, would I have begun this thread?...Yes, my hubby travels about twice a month just for 2 days out of town for business...and yes, my hubby had a horrible, plastic relationship with no depth with his own late father. My hubby is in general a warm, loving person who has struggled with one on one relationships with just being a dad since his own dad was more gone than not. My husband''s father was a jack of all trades: he was a tax guy for a couple of seasons, owned his own painting business for a bit, attempted to be a salesman for awhile, and was in the Navy, from which he traveled alot with and without my MIL. The longest stint was 14 months, which to me, is crazy hard on a wife, let alone a whole damn family. He never attended a function--game, choir performance,swim meet, etc.--unless it was of interest to him, even if one of his 4 sons were in it. He just didn''t care. I am not trying to be disrespectful to my late FIL, but my husband desperately wanted to have some sort of closeness to him. My hubby tried counseling in my FIL''s later years to patch things up. It just fell flat. He straight out told my husband to suck it up and the past was the past.
My husband and son #1 get along pretty well actually and have alot in common--not everything, but alot. My son and husband play racket ball about once or twice a week together. They also swim together, backpack, hike, camp and love anything that is electronic or computer-oriented, but they part ways at watching sports. My hubby will play baseball, but not football or wrestling. Son #1 is a fiend of most every sport--watching it, playing it, going to it, etc.
The biggest, hugest hurt of the florist shop is the constant fact that it is not bringing in the money. That directly hurts our son. He survives on that cash. If its not there, he can''t pay his bills so we have had to help. He directly and closely worked with the former owner, who is also the mom of one of his closest and dearest friends. When it was discovered of her deception, a lot of hurt wa born and the cut is deep. His friend is obviously embarrassed over his mother''s lies and what this has done to our family, not just son #1.
Yes, he is hurting--financially, emotionally, etc.--but it is so immature to strike out at those who love you the most, but I understand why in some respects. I am here and available to scream at, not that that is correct. And its true...no frickin way would he lash out at his Dad that way or me in front of his Dad. It is always when my husband is not around that I am verbally abused, whether it is by son #1 or daughter #1. Always...
I am guilty--in the recent past more so than today--of easily allowing what is being thrown at me to push those buttons you mentioned. I do better now, at least on the surface, but underneath, as is evident in past responses, I have a lot of work to do to reinforce myself and stand tall. I am trying to gird up my strengths and personal therapy is helping that.