I think I'm done buying blue sapphires

[Avondale]

You could buy some colored gems from Yvonne to set in them if it’s the mountings that you really love?

You're a wise genius. I hadn't even considered that. I added a pair that she currently has in my etsy collection, and if by the time I start working on the ring project they're still available, then it was meant to be.

Still, for a person who isn't really into diamonds, I'm surprised how much I enjoy wearing these.

So THIS is why you're on ban island!

Actually, Yvonne is the reason I was on ban island. Then I propelled myself out of there for this stone, then said I was going back to it but actually didn't, and delayed the journey until after I got the earrings. Can you blame me? Sometimes great opportunities present themselves and you have no choice but to be impulsive, else they fly away so quickly.

But I am now back to ban island. I promise.

 

[Dreamer_D]

They are very pretty earrings but a sapphire and diamond three stone is simply too classic! It must be done.

 

[Avondale]

I am going to title this post The mystery of "Where on Earth did you come from (literally)?"

So, I had an opportunity to meet with the resident gemologist today. The quest - to potentially find out more about the origin of the sapphire. In general I don't care about origins in the sense that I'm neither after a specific origin, nor would I reject a gem based on origin. However, I'm still human and I'm still curious.

A quick disclaimer - this was an exercise in curiosity only. It's not news that there's no guarantee an origin can be determined - and perhaps that's the reason why the sapphire's current lab report doesn't have it. Plus, the fact the stone has been treated makes the identification process more difficult. In the end the gemologist did come to a conclusion, but the origin still remains a mystery because she's only about 85% (in her words) sure of what she's seeing. Still, figured the story was worth telling.

When I gave her the gem to examine I told her the basics of what I knew about it - heated, overlooked probably because of its flaws, but still an intriguing little thing. She agreed with me that the colour was really nice.

She then proceeded to examine it for the better part of the next hour. Most of it was under a microscope with lots of rotating and adjustments (I learned there's a tool that's a hybrid between tweezers and claw thingie, I now want one). She used a regular torch up until I mentioned the clear zoning of the stone shows interesting orange fluorescence under LWUV, which was when she declared that could also be used for the diagnostic process and procured a UV torch herself.

There was lots of pulling out and spreading of various charts of inclusions on the table plus some consulting with digital resources on the computer that I couldn't see. At first she was hesitant between two possible localities, but didn't tell me which. She did show me that under her UV torch the stone fluoresces red.





To say that surprised me would be an understatement. How do you get from orange fluorescence to red? I was so stumped I forgot to ask whether her torch was SWUV. I tried to find more information on orange and red fluorescence and whether it was indicative of any origin, but couldn't. I guess she might've just used the UV light to better see the inclusions inside the stone.

Anyway, after a lot of examining the stone and comparing to enlarged photos of inclusions, she finally said she had a mostly defined opinion on where in the Earth's crust this one formed. And then she dropped the bomb - Kashmir.

I mean, c'mon now!

That can't be. No. Way. In. Hell. Something like this would go overlooked. What vendor in their right mind would have a Kashmir under their nose and would just allow it to dangle freely in a bag with others so that it may get scratched up to the state it used to be in? Not a chance.

She did explain her reasoning and showed me what she was seeing in her charts. She said she was initially looking for indications for Sri Lanka origin but eventually found none. She said she was seeing the growth lines typical for Kashmir. She also said the two crystal inclusions (they're right next to the big cloud) were difficult to evaluate with complete certainty due to the frosted halos resulting from the heat treatment, and that's why she wasn't entirely certain. But she said she believed she was seeing tourmaline crystals, and that's highly indicative of the origin.

I still don't have a full understanding of the zoned red fluorescence and its significance, or if it has any. If anyone knows, please, share the information. My curiosity is peaking.

So, that's the result of this exercise. Potentially, hypothetically, maybe Kashmir. But if not, there just aren't enough indications to conclude a different or any origin. She said, as unlikely as it is, it's not entirely impossible that a crystal slipped through the cracks, someone eventually took interest without knowing what it was, decided to bake it and see what happens.

I don't think I'm going to pursue this further. I sure as hell am not sending it to Antwerp. My stress levels are already dangerously high without the looming threat of international shipping. It's not as if it matters anyway, I'm not selling this and I won't be enjoying it any more or less. In a way, I'd prefer not knowing with certainty, or I might fall victim to the trap of being too scared to wear it, and that just won't do.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I was on the edge of my seat reading this post! How exciting!! As you said, origin is oftentimes an educated guess anyway, so I'd feel comfortable with my local G.G.'s opinion. And she was quite thorough in her assessment. So congratulations, you're the proud owner of a Kashmir sapphire.

If you ever decide to sell, maybe then you can explore having it recertified for origin (I have faith that AGL should be able to call it). In the meantime, woohoo!!

ETA: I always forget you're abroad (ugly American that I am)... so SSEF or Gubelin would be the safer choice rather than having her cross the pond (eek).

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Ayuh, good enough for me!

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Kashmir! Even saying the name sounds exotic. The gemologist was so thorough in her examination that it seems like you have a gorgeous, Kashmir blue sapphire.

 

[Avondale]

@Autumn in New England @ItsMainelyYou @Lisa Loves Shiny

Y'all surprise me. I was expecting some level headed cool approach of "yeah, you're right to not get your hopes up, this is soooo unlikely, but it's still good fun".

And what do I get instead? Confetti and "congrats on your Kashmir"!

 

[Autumn in New England]

@Autumn in New England @ItsMainelyYou @Lisa Loves Shiny

Y'all surprise me. I was expecting some level headed cool approach of "yeah, you're right to not get your hopes up, this is soooo unlikely, but it's still good fun".

And what do I get instead? Confetti and "congrats on your Kashmir"!

That gemologist did everything but run it through Ancestry.com... I'm riding this train!

 

[Calliecake]

There are going to be a lot of people on this train ride!!!

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

@Autumn in New England @ItsMainelyYou @Lisa Loves Shiny

Y'all surprise me. I was expecting some level headed cool approach of "yeah, you're right to not get your hopes up, this is soooo unlikely, but it's still good fun".

And what do I get instead? Confetti and "congrats on your Kashmir"!

Hey, any little bit of good news in these trying times, I'm going to wave the sparklers. It's that, or I may get other ideas.
So! Kashmir it is for my friend!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Hey, any little bit of good news in these trying times, I'm going to wave the sparklers. It's that, or I may get other ideas.
So! Kashmir it is for my friend!

Right? So in terms of our news day, let's see... we can choose between happily ogling a 25 million-year-old treasure... or witnessing a societal implosion.

You're doing the lord's work, OP!

 

[Avondale]

The question posed was "what is your holy grail and do you own it".



There's an intrinsic irony in me making that post on Tuesday and meeting with the gemologist the very next day.

Right? So in terms of our news day, let's see... we can choose between happily ogling a 25 million-year-old treasure... or witnessing a societal implosion.

You're doing the lord's work, OP!

Well, in that case, I guess I could ramble a little bit more.

Last night I was playing with my loupe, even though it's futile to try to use 10x magnification to see something that's difficult to spot under 60x. I did find some new veils I hadn't noticed before. One of them was mildly zoned, as in blue, veil, blue, veil, and so on. Couldn't for the life of me get a good photo because the strong light from the torch confuses the phone camera sensor and the computer overprocesses it, but it's somewhat visible here (it's clearer in real life, and also not that radioactive blue):



And the other had this interesting rectangular dark blue spot on it, but aside from that it's just one single flat veil:



At this point I was browsing through the Hyperion image database on Lotus' website, slowly spiraling further and further away from sleep. And then, I figured...

I guess she might've just used the UV light to better see the inclusions inside the stone.

...why don't I do the same?

And I think I unlocked a new level. Because it turns out under UV you can actually see things under a regular loupe that you wouldn't see otherwise. The entire stone on the inside is... striped, essentially. There are striped zonings all over the place. Sadly that would not photograph no matter how much I tried. The edges between the blue and clear zones of the stone in particular display this structure very prominently. I imagine this is the result of the growth of the crystal so it's like looking back into the history of it. It was fascinating to observe.

I was so excited, I started pulling all my other sapphires to see if I'll be able to see anything similar in them. Unfortunately neither the heated nor the unheated one showed me anything more under UV that I wasn't able to see with regular light, and definitely no hidden striped pattern.

 

[Autumn in New England]

We should have a thread of everyone's HG stones for different species/varieties... our HG ruby, sapphire, spinel, etc. Anyway! Let's you and me Thomas Crowne the sh*t out of that Bulgari ring. Although you already have a Kasmir sapph now, so...

This is all immensely fascinating!!

 

[Muscosa3]

In case you are in Europe send the stone to SSEF (the best option) or Idar Oberstein (second best) for determination of country of origin. As it is heated (heating halos in one of your photos) my guess is Ceylon or the new deposit in Madagascar.
As soon as you have the result let us know.

 

[Avondale]

In case you are in Europe send the stone to SSEF (the best option) or Idar Oberstein (second best) for determination of country of origin. As it is heated (heating halos in one of your photos) my guess is Ceylon or the new deposit in Madagascar.
As soon as you have the result let us know.

I already said I have zero intention of sending it to Antwerp, what makes you think sending it to Basel is even a remote possibility? Last I checked, no one is offering to cover shipping, insurance and the 1000CHF fee that SSEF would charge to issue an origin lab report on this stone, let alone take on the obligation to find me another stone like this one with comparable colour and performance, should this one get lost.

No, I am not sending it anywhere, I am not getting any results and I am not letting anyone know. A (hopefully) entertaining story is all anyone is going to get out of this. I am going to set my stone in a ring, I am going to wear the hell out of it and I am not going to care whether there's one more or less Kashmir sapphire in this world because, honestly, no one should to begin with.

 

[glitterata]

I already said I have zero intention of sending it to Antwerp, what makes you think sending it to Basel is even a remote possibility? Last I checked, no one is offering to cover shipping, insurance and the 1000CHF fee that SSEF would charge to issue an origin lab report on this stone, let alone take on the obligation to find me another stone like this one with comparable colour and performance, should this one get lost.

No, I am not sending it anywhere, I am not getting any results and I am not letting anyone know. A (hopefully) entertaining story is all anyone is going to get out of this. I am going to set my stone in a ring, I am going to wear the hell out of it and I am not going to care whether there's one more or less Kashmir sapphire in this world because, honestly, no one should to begin with.

As far as I'm concerned, you have a Kashmir sapphire, end of, that's it, pop the champagne. I expect all your friends and fans here feel the same.

 

[Muscosa3]

No need for an aggressive answer. Why should anyone other than you yourself cover the costs for YOUR lab report?
I thought this post was about curiosity and real interest in gemological research - your last text and photos were about possible country of origin and your visit of a gemologist therefore - but obviously it was not. Only very few experts worldwide can give you a qualified opinion on the country of origin of a metamorphic sapphire.
Therefore enjoy your self-declared Kashmir sapphire - nobody prevents you from doing so.

 

[Avondale]

Why should anyone other than you yourself cover the costs for YOUR lab report?

Why would anyone come into this thread, read that I've written very clearly and unambiguously that I'm not pursuing this and it will remain a mystery, then order me (?) to spend a 4-figure sum (???) to send the stone to a lab just so I can then report the results to them?

I was not aggressive. But I was blunt, and I will keep being blunt whenever the situation calls for it.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

The question posed was "what is your holy grail and do you own it".



There's an intrinsic irony in me making that post on Tuesday and meeting with the gemologist the very next day.




Well, in that case, I guess I could ramble a little bit more.

Last night I was playing with my loupe, even though it's futile to try to use 10x magnification to see something that's difficult to spot under 60x. I did find some new veils I hadn't noticed before. One of them was mildly zoned, as in blue, veil, blue, veil, and so on. Couldn't for the life of me get a good photo because the strong light from the torch confuses the phone camera sensor and the computer overprocesses it, but it's somewhat visible here (it's clearer in real life, and also not that radioactive blue):



And the other had this interesting rectangular dark blue spot on it, but aside from that it's just one single flat veil:



At this point I was browsing through the Hyperion image database on Lotus' website, slowly spiraling further and further away from sleep. And then, I figured...

...why don't I do the same?

And I think I unlocked a new level. Because it turns out under UV you can actually see things under a regular loupe that you wouldn't see otherwise. The entire stone on the inside is... striped, essentially. There are striped zonings all over the place. Sadly that would not photograph no matter how much I tried. The edges between the blue and clear zones of the stone in particular display this structure very prominently. I imagine this is the result of the growth of the crystal so it's like looking back into the history of it. It was fascinating to observe.

I was so excited, I started pulling all my other sapphires to see if I'll be able to see anything similar in them. Unfortunately neither the heated nor the unheated one showed me anything more under UV that I wasn't able to see with regular light, and definitely no hidden striped pattern.

That is so interesting! Thanks for sharing that tip.

 

[Muscosa3]

Let me be blunt too. You do not want to send this stone to a lab to determine country of origin (correct treatment included). This would cost just 360 Euro in the case of DSEF.
To talk about a stones country of origin as well as treatment is ridiculous as long as you are not willing to send this stone to a reputable lab. This is kindergarden behaviour. All other people talking about their Kashmir sapphires here have already done the lab report before even posting here.
You on the other hand explain that even if you would send it to a lab you wouldn't share the result. Speaks for itself.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Let me be blunt too. You do not want to send this stone to a lab to determine country of origin (correct treatment included). This would cost just 360 Euro in the case of DSEF.
To talk about a stones country of origin as well as treatment is ridiculous as long as you are not willing to send this stone to a reputable lab. This is kindergarden behaviour. All other people talking about their Kashmir sapphires here have already done the lab report before even posting here.
You on the other hand explain that even if you would send it to a lab you wouldn't share the result. Speaks for itself.

Easy does it there.

The OP is simply remarking on interesting geological facts and has been very clear that there is no interest in making this a formal affair - nor does the origin really matter to the OP.

I think we may have taken a wrong turn. There’s no point that needs to be proven.

We’re all friendly here. Let’s keep it that way.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

BTW:

https://www.gemresearch.ch/assets/publication_articles_documents/2017_05-kashmir-madagascar-grs-1.pdf

....Just sayin...

 

[Muscosa3]

Sorry, but what '... Just sayin ... ?

1) No lab ever confirmed a tourmaline inclusion in this sapphire here.
2) No lab ever confirmed even any kind of 'Kashmir-like' other inclusions indicating the new deposit in Madagascar let alone Kashmir.

So, what is your point?

Posting this GRS article here in this context makes me feel this discussion was very well about the country of origin - although this was denied.

In general: You can hope as much as you want that a sapphire you just bought is from Kashmir - probably a lot of people who read about the famous Kashmir deposit want to own a Kashmir sapphire. Nothing wrong with this, just do not twist facts.
And very important: Do not try to sell a sapphire you call Kashmir sapphire without the report from a reputable lab. Some do this - trying to play with the hopes of the buyer and the intention is to achieve the best possible price for the stone.
Real Kashmir sapphires are offered with even 2-3 such lab reports. And you do not have to ask for them - these reports are standard and this for good reason.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Sorry, but what '... Just sayin ... ?

1) No lab ever confirmed a tourmaline inclusion in this sapphire here.
2) No lab ever confirmed even any kind of 'Kashmir-like' other inclusions indicating the new deposit in Madagascar let alone Kashmir.

So, what is your point?

Posting this GRS article here in this context makes me feel this discussion was very well about the country of origin - although this was denied.

In general: You can hope as much as you want that a sapphire you just bought is from Kashmir - probably a lot of people who read about the famous Kashmir deposit want to own a Kashmir sapphire. Nothing wrong with this, just do not twist facts.
And very important: Do not try to sell a sapphire you call Kashmir sapphire without the report from a reputable lab. Some do this - trying to play with the hopes of the buyer and the intention is to achieve the best possible price for the stone.
Real Kashmir sapphires are offered with even 2-3 such lab reports. And you do not have to ask for them - these reports are standard and this for good reason.

I’m not the OP, just a member of this forum.

I have no stake in anything here.

Nobody is buying or selling anything.

I just happened to be reading this article and thought of this post.

What I’m “just sayin” is exactly what I said: Tourmaline inclusions seem to be exclusive to Kashmir.

Nothing else.

Please restrain the temptation to read more into this than what is written.

 

[Rfisher]

@Avondale
FWIW, probably not much but I’ll go ahead anyways.
I really enjoyed the telling of your journey. It’s entertaining and interesting and lovely to see. Thank you for letting us come along for the ride and share your joy.

I think you’ve been pretty clear with your intentions and statements. No delusions or misleadings. Thought I could tell where this stone came from but now I’m not so sure.

I’ve seen numerous posts from others that do make claims from experiments/observations done in their own homes, do want to sell/valuate, and none get near this much scrutiny.
Baffling, even when done with a snotty kiss from a fly by account.

Take care.

 

[dk168]

Why does anything "Kashmir" related nearly always end up in heated discussions?

No one is buying or selling in this thread.

I trust the OP as a knowledgeable and experience member of this board, including matters relating to CSs.

Some care about origin and treatment in CSs, some don't. Each person's mind-clean is different.

DK

 

[Dreamer_D]

Trolls gonna troll.

I love this exploration. The sapphire is stunning and I am incredibly jealous. I hope for something like this one day. I think you should cannibalize the earrings for the diamonds. Finding a matched pair of OECs is very difficult! And our little labs in the earring mountings that you will only ever see from 4 feet away. Set it immediately so that we can enjoy it! How’s that for a demand?

 

[Rfisher]

@Avondale
FWIW, probably not much but I’ll go ahead anyways.
I really enjoyed the telling of your journey. It’s entertaining and interesting and lovely to see. Thank you for letting us come along for the ride and share your joy.

I think you’ve been pretty clear with your intentions and statements. No delusions or misleadings. Thought I could tell where this stone came from but now I’m not so sure.

I’ve seen numerous posts from others that do make claims about their corundum here on the colored stone area from experiments/observations done in their own homes, do want to sell/valuate, and none get near this much scrutiny.
Baffling, even when done with a snotty kiss from a fly by account.

Take care.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

What I look for in a colored stone is for it to hold its color in different lighting. Check.

I think the OP is making the right decision, in not getting lab reports.

The color is glorious and a lab report will not change that. The origin is most likely Kashmir. Only a substantial investment in lab reports will ‘prove’ that. The stone is heated and once again a lab report will not change that.

As a not-in-trade lover of colored stones, the only reason I get lab reports is so my estate won’t be taken advantage of by dealers who know more than my executor. I have never seen a heated Kashmir offered for sale, but I imagine there is a discount. So getting a definitive lab report(s) is not going to improve the price so much that it will make up for the cost of the reports or the risk of it going missing.

This stone is not for sale. It is a gorgeous color that I would love to enjoy. The OP loves it, as she should! Were it mine, I would wear the heck out of it and enjoy it.

I can’t wait to see what dress this lovely stone will get. Great find!

.

 

[Avondale]

BTW:

https://www.gemresearch.ch/assets/publication_articles_documents/2017_05-kashmir-madagascar-grs-1.pdf

....Just sayin...

I know, I know, buuuuut... the gemologist just wasn't 100% sure this is what she was seeing. She was entirely transparent and was honest about the fact that the frosted halos obscured vision significantly enough even at high magnification. Someone else could have an entirely different opinion on what the crystals inside are.

Nobody is buying or selling anything.

No one is buying or selling in this thread.

This stone is not for sale.

Yep, because whoever might want to own this stone, will have to pry it out of my cold dead fingers!

FWIW, probably not much but I’ll go ahead anyways.
I really enjoyed the telling of your journey. It’s entertaining and interesting and lovely to see. Thank you for letting us come along for the ride and share your joy.

It means a great deal. I enjoy telling stories and it wouldn't be the same if others didn't enjoy reading them. Plus, I get so much entertainment from other people's threads, I also want to contribute.

Why does anything "Kashmir" related nearly always end up in heated discussions?

What baffles me is I didn't even make any claims! I literally went to see a gemologist when I had a couple spare hours to satisfy curiosity. My seller and I were speculating where it came from, with the main suspects being, unsurprisingly, Sri Lanka and Madagascar, or, oooh, maybe it's Burmese, wouldn't that be nice, eh! The gemologist shared her opinion which was presented as just that - her opinion, and nothing more. It's a funny story to tell, at most a harmless fantasy to indulge in, yet somehow now I'm now supposed to get a bazillion lab reports and sell? I mean, am I also supposed to become a millionaire?

Okay then, cya, I'm off to buy a yacht...