If marriage is very important to you

[KristyDarling]

One of my friends was recently in this situation and after 5 years together with the love of her life, she made the very hard decision to leave him. They were crazy in love and compatible in ALL ways, except for one: she wanted a traditional marriage relationship, and he does not believe in the concept of marriage at all. She had to decide whether she was willing to give up some of her values in order to stay with him, and although it took her over 2 years to work up the strength to admit it, she ultimately decided the answer was no. She says it was the hardest thing she has ever done in her life, but they just couldn''t reconcile their different opinions over marriage. This was about 8 months ago and she says that she''s surprised by how well she was able to move on.

 

[Mara]

definitely deco and what also showed me the power of a good relationship or really wanting to be with someone is how strongly it affected me when we were apart, and him too even though he didn''t show it at all. he also had never gotten back together with a previous ex, he always believed in just breaking it off and moving on and not being friends etc and so for us to try again and be really happy the 2nd time, happier than before after discussing things and realizing that we had to make changes to not end up there again etc, that really showed ME that he wanted to be in this relationship and also showed HIM that i really wanted to be in it too. our relationship after getting back together was light-years better than before (and before was good too!), which just solidified things in our mind.

 

[DonaBella]

I SO appreciate my DH more now than I did when we first married or even as much as I thought I loved him a year ago! We have grown together so much. At the same time, we are very much individuals who have the same drive to be utterly and completely committed. My honor and respect for him makes me WANT to compromise when needed to make HIM happy cuz then we both are happy and he does the same for me.

Our renewal of vows was something I romanticized over, but when it came to the part where we added our own words and he broke down and cried saying how much this meant to HIM, I was so over the moon!

I melted...Do you have any idea how much that meant to me to see him so emotionally moved?

That was Feb. 25th of this year and I am STILL riding that wave!

Irregardless of what each couple decides for them---married or not married---I say, be sure, be comfortable with your choice and remember to truly love, you MUST compromise...I don''t judge cuz its not my place.

 

[firebirdgold]

I voted yes. If one person feels that marriage is very important to them and wants to get married soon, while the other person is giving a nebulous ''someday in a few years'' kind of answer, than h@ll yeah you should walk. Not getting any younger, and all that.
HOWEVER, if the other person is saying ''I really want to marry you, but I think we should wait a year or two for this ___ reason.", then by all means, stick around a bit longer.
Of course some men do use the ''financial stability'' reason as a means to put things off indefinitely, since it''s a very vague goal. Of course, that''s not to say that the reason is not occasionally valid. There are always exceptions.

I do very much agree that if one person really wants to get married and the other is ''I don''t ever want to get married'' there is a good chance that the statement ends in a silent ''to you''. My sister is an excellent example of that. For years she told her serious long-term boyfriends that she didn''t want to get married, didn''t believe in marriage, etc. And she herself believed it. Until she met her current SO. They''ll be married this summer, 10 months after they first met.

Of course there are very happy and committed couples who both agree that the legal formalities of marriage are not for them. I suspect, however, that if one really felt it was important to them that the other would agree because they want their partner to be happy.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/29/2006 12:47:52 PM
Author: Mara

also for us we had a icky breakup for 2 months

Heh. Mara said "icky".

LMAO

 

[klavigne]

So let me ask you ladies this then. If your SO didn''t really want to get married for whatever reason, money, school, unsure, scared, and you told him marry me or I''m leaving and then he did, is that okay with you?
You all say your not willing to comprimise your feelings on this issue but your almost forcing someone else to compromise how they feel. Your basically saying, I''m ready now and if your not then I''m walking. I say that if the relationship is stonge and healthy then why screw it up by putting a timeline on when to get married. I think that guys look at marrige so differently than women. I love my girlfriend very much, and I do want to marry her, but if she gave me an ultimatum I''d have to question why she would want to marry me in the first place if it was forced. Would you sign a prenupif he said thats the only way he''d marry you? Guys just look at it and think about what could go wrong, divorce is too expensive.
So I voted yes. I don''t think I could be with someone who had no intention of ever getting married. But if they wanted to someday, then I''d stick around if the relationship was strong and healthy. After all marriage is really only a piece of paper, commitment to another person for life can not be captured with a few nice words and a stamp from the state. JMHO.

 

[klavigne]

Let me rephrase the question:
If you told your SO that you wanted to get married and htey were indifferent about it, happy with the relationship but unsure of marriage. So he agrees and buys you a ring and then never agrees on a date. Would you stick around then know that he''s commited to you?

 

[Caribou]

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne
So let me ask you ladies this then. If your SO didn''t really want to get married for whatever reason, money, school, unsure, scared, and you told him marry me or I''m leaving and then he did, is that okay with you?
You all say your not willing to comprimise your feelings on this issue but your almost forcing someone else to compromise how they feel. Your basically saying, I''m ready now and if your not then I''m walking. I say that if the relationship is stonge and healthy then why screw it up by putting a timeline on when to get married. I think that guys look at marrige so differently than women. I love my girlfriend very much, and I do want to marry her, but if she gave me an ultimatum I''d have to question why she would want to marry me in the first place if it was forced. Would you sign a prenupif he said thats the only way he''d marry you? Guys just look at it and think about what could go wrong, divorce is too expensive.
So I voted yes. I don''t think I could be with someone who had no intention of ever getting married. But if they wanted to someday, then I''d stick around if the relationship was strong and healthy. After all marriage is really only a piece of paper, commitment to another person for life can not be captured with a few nice words and a stamp from the state. JMHO.

I don''t think any of us are saying we are giving them an ultimatium. All we are saying is that if you don''t want what we want, than why should we compromise that?? It''s been my experience and experiences of many other woman (on here and women I know in real life) that if a guy says ''I do not want to ever get married'' he actually means ''I don''t want to get married TO YOU!'' Hopefully there is communication with the couple where both are aware of the others intentions and both are being honest about their intentions. Unfortaunately there area a lot of people out there who aren''t.

 

[Caribou]

Date: 3/29/2006 2:52:48 PM
Author: klavigne
Let me rephrase the question:
If you told your SO that you wanted to get married and htey were indifferent about it, happy with the relationship but unsure of marriage. So he agrees and buys you a ring and then never agrees on a date. Would you stick around then know that he''s commited to you?

No, I''ve had this happen....if a guy is willing to commit to a promise marriage, then he should be willing to set a date very soon after the proposal. If you are reluctant to set a date that doesn''t show much commitment...anyone can get engaged. IMO

 

[klavigne]

Caribou,
I hear what your saying. I would just hope that these guys that are like that aren''t sticking around either. I''ve personally never stuck around a relationship that I felt wasn''t going to work. The relationships that I''ve had that were a year plus I thought at the time that things were great so why rock the boat and just paddled along to see where things were going. Now that I''ve found my sweetness I guess I relate, but I''ve never been one to play the lets wait and see routine. But I wasn''t completely sure I wanted to marry my girl until after about two and a half years, if she had pressured me before that I would have bounced.

 

[Caribou]

Date: 3/29/2006 3:03:34 PM
Author: klavigne
Caribou,
I hear what your saying. I would just hope that these guys that are like that aren''t sticking around either. I''ve personally never stuck around a relationship that I felt wasn''t going to work. The relationships that I''ve had that were a year plus I thought at the time that things were great so why rock the boat and just paddled along to see where things were going. Now that I''ve found my sweetness I guess I relate, but I''ve never been one to play the lets wait and see routine. But I wasn''t completely sure I wanted to marry my girl until after about two and a half years, if she had pressured me before that I would have bounced.

Unfortuately there are a lot of selfish men and women out there, that will continue the relationship even though they have no intentions on it becoming more (i.e., marriage) than what it is (boyfriend/girlfriend). Unfortunately more, the people who are the ''victims'' of this are willingly to stick around knowing how they feel thinking/hoping ''he/she''ll change''..so it is a 2-way street.

My good friend is currently in a relationship like this....her boyfriend rarely refers to her as his girlfriend, as far as I know he has never said ''I love you'' but has actually told her ''I don''t see me ever being in love with you'' and does not want to get married. They''ve been together going on 4 years....4 YEARS!!!!

It bothers me to no end that she continues this relationship....but she''s still hopeful.

I don''t get it.

 

[firebirdgold]

Date: 3/29/2006 2:56:18 PM
Author: Caribou

Date: 3/29/2006 2:52:48 PM

Author: klavigne

Let me rephrase the question:

If you told your SO that you wanted to get married and they were indifferent about it, happy with the relationship but unsure of marriage. So he agrees and buys you a ring and then never agrees on a date. Would you stick around then know that he''s committed to you?

No, I''ve had this happen....if a guy is willing to commit to a promise marriage, then he should be willing to set a date very soon after the proposal. If you are reluctant to set a date that doesn''t show much commitment...anyone can get engaged. IMO

I agree! It''s not a real engagement until two things have happened: 1) You''ve both excitedly called your immediate family and told them about it. 2) You either have a date or are in negotiations for one. (I think it counts if you''re still trying to decide on a month or a particular weekend.)
When you come right down to it, a ring is not necessary for an engagement and doesn''t by itself mean you are engaged. It''s nice and I''d like one, but I don''t think my bf needs one to propose to me. (although w/o one I''d need him to call his parents to convince me that he means it officially.)

Back on topic (more or less)... I don''t think we''re talking about an ultimatum. We''re talking about if we would leave the relationship... which is a little bit different than threatening to leave the relationship if he doesn''t step up to the plate.
And I feel that it''s very conditional. If a guy is 30 and wants to wait an indefinite amount of time to be more stable with money or because he doesn''t feel ready quite yet (and it''s not a new relationship), then I''d dump his @ss. (what I personally would do). If a guy is 22 and says the same thing, hopefully giving a definite goal, then I''d suggest sticking around a bit longer

 

[klavigne]

I just don''t get it either Caribou. If he knows that he''s never going to love her or want to marry her, what is he doing sticking around, all the while she has high hopes of things changing. Thats not healthy for either of them. These are the same guys who almost always end up cheating.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 3/29/2006 3:23:46 PM
Author: klavigne
I just don''t get it either Caribou. If he knows that he''s never going to love her or want to marry her, what is he doing sticking around, all the while she has high hopes of things changing. Thats not healthy for either of them. These are the same guys who almost always end up cheating.

These guys are emotional abusers.

 

[Erin]

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne
After all marriage is really only a piece of paper, commitment to another person for life can not be captured with a few nice words and a stamp from the state. JMHO.

So if it''s only a piece of paper and either way you have the same commitment? What''s the big hesitation?

 

[klavigne]

The fact that the state is now involved, meaning that in two years if things don''t work out the relationship can''t just dissolve. The state gets involved and then there is alimony, plus losing half, or better, of everything you ever owned. It''s a whole lot bigger than that, guys think long and hard about these things. To totally trust someone is a very hard thing indeed, especially for men. No one wants to admit that they had a failed marriage because maybe they jumped into it.
Just a guys perspective.

 

[Caribou]

Date: 3/29/2006 4:21:05 PM
Author: klavigne
The fact that the state is now involved, meaning that in two years if things don''t work out the relationship can''t just dissolve. The state gets involved and then there is alimony, plus losing half, or better, of everything you ever owned. It''s a whole lot bigger than that, guys think long and hard about these things. To totally trust someone is a very hard thing indeed, especially for men. No one wants to admit that they had a failed marriage because maybe they jumped into it.
Just a guys perspective.

But why are you even thinking about divorce when thinking about marrying your ''sweetie''? I mean, I realize that what the statistics are...but if you are considering what happens during a divorce before you even get engaged to someone...isn''t that kind of a bad sign?

I have never once thought ''well if it doesn''t work, I can divorce him'' when thinking of my marriage with my FI. It just doesn''t occur to me, I know that we will work hard to keep the relationship together. This is how you should be thinking...not about alimony and such.

My mom told me that while she was walking down the aisle when her and my dad wed, she kept thinking ''well if it doesn''t work we can get divorced''....fast forward 9 years and there she was mother of 2 very young kids in the process of divorcing him. My friend also thought the same thing when the day she married her husband....she divorced him and is now married to her 2nd husband whom I know she didn''t have those feelings about.

If you are truly thinking about alimony and whatnot, you are either way too practical or there''s something about the relationship that makes it think it might fail. If that''s the case, I''d seriously consider proposing.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 3/29/2006 4:21:05 PM
Author: klavigne
The fact that the state is now involved, meaning that in two years if things don''t work out the relationship can''t just dissolve. The state gets involved and then there is alimony, plus losing half, or better, of everything you ever owned. It''s a whole lot bigger than that, guys think long and hard about these things. To totally trust someone is a very hard thing indeed, especially for men. No one wants to admit that they had a failed marriage because maybe they jumped into it.
Just a guys perspective.

There in lies the "risk". Those who won''t marry their significant others are esentially saying that the other person isn''t worth the risk. Everyone who marries is taking a risk. When you "want" to marry your partner, you are aware of this risk, yet you love and trust the other person enough to roll the dice. Is the outcome worth the risk . . . or not?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne

So let me ask you ladies this then. If your SO didn''t really want to get married for whatever reason, money, school, unsure, scared, and you told him marry me or I''m leaving and then he did, is that okay with you?

That''s just it....I wouldn''t say ''marry me or I''m leaving''. I''d find out what he wants and if there is a way to reconcile it with what I want. If there is a way, then I''ll stay. If there isn''t, then I need to accept that and move on.

We aren''t talking about valid reasons to delay here. Of course it''s reasonable to say '' I want to marry after I get out of college/after I complete my exams/once I''ve paid off my outstanding debt, etc.'' There are a whole host of sensible considerations that go into making the decision to marry.

I think what most of us are referring to is the vague, nebulous, "well, I can KINDA see getting married sooooooooomeday......but what''s the big deal anyway......Sure, I see you in my future (with NO further details)........it''s just a piece of paper........etc. etc." THAT kind of vagueness wouldn''t fly for me.

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne
But if they wanted to someday, then I''d stick around if the relationship was strong and healthy.

How can the relationship be strong and healthy if one person''s needs -- vital needs -- aren''t being met? How can the relationship be healthy for one''s self-esteem....knowing the other person doesn''t WANT to commit to him/her?

If marriage is important to a person, it''s important. It''s not like sacrificing going out on a Saturday night bedause he''d rather stay in. It''s so much more than that, and one cannot just set that aside.

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne

After all marriage is really only a piece of paper, commitment to another person for life can not be captured with a few nice words and a stamp from the state. JMHO.

As someone who is married, I can absolutely assure you that marriage is much, much, MUCH more than ''just a piece of paper''. Believe me on this one.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/29/2006 3:03:34 PM
Author: klavigne

But I wasn''t completely sure I wanted to marry my girl until after about two and a half years, if she had pressured me before that I would have bounced.

My feeling: If I''m ready and you''re not........or if you''re ready, and I''m not......then we should be able to discuss what things will make both people "ready".

If it''s "I don''t know....why does it matter....I''m not sure when I''ll be ready".....well, then it''s not meant to be.
If you''d have bounced? Well, then you''d both likely be with other people now...and that''s fine. Things work out the way they are supposed to.

 

[Mara]

hehe leave it to a man....

for us it was not an ultimatum and i was sure he got that. i just said hey FOR ME i can't wait around because it will make me bitter. you've got another 6 months...do you realistically feel like that is a good timeframe and agree that you *should* know by then if you want to marry me? you don't have to propose at 6 months just be able to say yes you are the one i want to marry, so let's discuss it. he said yes he felt that was a reasonable timeframe and i told him that if at the end of 6 months he was still not sure or couldn't say those words, that i *would* leave. it was never about getting a proposal or marriage right away, it was more like hey lets be sure we both want the same things from this relationship. otherwise no point in hanging around and mooning over someone if you aren't aligned re: priorities and wants/hopes etc.

oh yeah and if he woulda bounced because of what i thought and said then we probably wouldn't have been meant to be with each other after all.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/29/2006 4:21:05 PM
Author: klavigne
The state gets involved and then there is alimony, plus losing half, or better, of everything you ever owned.

What girls are you DATING? I don''t know too many couples where things are so ONE-SIDED. Plus, you can always get a pre-nup where you each keep what you came into the relationship with ... Plus, you can limit "potential losses" with a pre-nup too.

IMO, guys love to use money as an excuse for everything.

Only these days you be suprised at how many WOMEN have way more to "lose".

 

[klavigne]

Mara, You nailed exactly, more or less, what I was trying to say. Gee, us guys can be so dense sometimes
So if at the end of those six months he said, "okay, we can get engaged in two years" what would your reaction have been then?

I''m just having a hard time understanding why there needs to be a timeline I guess. As long as the relationship is progressing and hasn''t staled out I''m more apt to just go with the flow. I didn''t propose to my girlfriend until after two years because I wanted to see how things played out, how we''d do in both good times and bad as a team. It wasn''t until I left to go to europe that I realized that my life was so much better in every possible way having Colleen in it. Thats when I knew that she was the one. If I hadn''t missed her so much the three weeks I was gone I probable wouldn''t have asked her yet. Not becasue I don''t completely love her or that I''m not commited to her but just because there wasn''t any reason too.

 

[klavigne]

Hey Decode,
I''m from Jersey, we don''t trust anyone in Jersey. Ever see Soprono''s

 

[Erin]

Date: 3/29/2006 5:04:08 PM
Author: klavigne
So if at the end of those six months he said, ''okay, we can get engaged in two years'' what would your reaction have been then?

What if you asked Colleen to marry you and she said I''m not ready to get engaged yet because of x,y, and z but I do see us getting married sooooomeday. I''d rather wait another two years and then talk about getting engaged. You''d be okay with that?

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 3/29/2006 2:56:18 PM
Author: Caribou

Date: 3/29/2006 2:52:48 PM
Author: klavigne
Let me rephrase the question:
If you told your SO that you wanted to get married and htey were indifferent about it, happy with the relationship but unsure of marriage. So he agrees and buys you a ring and then never agrees on a date. Would you stick around then know that he''s commited to you?

No, I''ve had this happen....if a guy is willing to commit to a promise marriage, then he should be willing to set a date very soon after the proposal. If you are reluctant to set a date that doesn''t show much commitment...anyone can get engaged. IMO

Exactly what Caribou said...I am a perfect example of that. When I was very young(17, 18, 19 years old), I got engaged at each of the ages in the parentheses. I was young, silly and stupid. I thought I was in love and thought I was ready to be engaged---BUT not to be married. I loved the attention of the ring, the parties, the this, the that...but in reality, I had no intention of getting married at those young ages. I hurt 3 guys very much with my wavering heart and not being real and honest with them or myself.
My DH and I dated for a year off and on and when we did get engaged, it was for 3 1/2 weeks! Yep, he wasn''t taking any chances of me bailing(like I would...erh...I did give him cause to be concerned!

) out. We got engaged on Jan. 19th of 1981( I know, I am dating myself...oh well!), and married February 14th 1981...so I guess 4 weeks and 5 days we were engaged.
If one or the other in an engaged couple hesitates or puts off setting a date, that is a sign of trouble. See...just like what Caribou said...anyone can get engaged...its my opinion and my personal history to prove it...

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 3/29/2006 4:49:19 PM
Author: Mara
hehe leave it to a man....

for us it was not an ultimatum and i was sure he got that. i just said hey FOR ME i can''t wait around because it will make me bitter. you''ve got another 6 months...do you realistically feel like that is a good timeframe and agree that you *should* know by then if you want to marry me? you don''t have to propose at 6 months just be able to say yes you are the one i want to marry, so let''s discuss it. he said yes he felt that was a reasonable timeframe and i told him that if at the end of 6 months he was still not sure or couldn''t say those words, that i *would* leave. it was never about getting a proposal or marriage right away, it was more like hey lets be sure we both want the same things from this relationship. otherwise no point in hanging around and mooning over someone if you aren''t aligned re: priorities and wants/hopes etc.

oh yeah and if he woulda bounced because of what i thought and said then we probably wouldn''t have been meant to be with each other after all.

Mara,

You really did say it best...

Why hang on to a relationship that isn''t going to go anywhere? I would think the guy as well as the girl would be able to relax and enjoy things more with things straight up and discussed...

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 3/29/2006 3:14:01 PM
Author: Wren

Date: 3/29/2006 2:56:18 PM
Author: Caribou

Date: 3/29/2006 2:52:48 PM

Author: klavigne

Let me rephrase the question:

If you told your SO that you wanted to get married and they were indifferent about it, happy with the relationship but unsure of marriage. So he agrees and buys you a ring and then never agrees on a date. Would you stick around then know that he''s committed to you?

No, I''ve had this happen....if a guy is willing to commit to a promise marriage, then he should be willing to set a date very soon after the proposal. If you are reluctant to set a date that doesn''t show much commitment...anyone can get engaged. IMO

I agree! It''s not a real engagement until two things have happened: 1) You''ve both excitedly called your immediate family and told them about it. 2) You either have a date or are in negotiations for one. (I think it counts if you''re still trying to decide on a month or a particular weekend.)
When you come right down to it, a ring is not necessary for an engagement and doesn''t by itself mean you are engaged. It''s nice and I''d like one, but I don''t think my bf needs one to propose to me. (although w/o one I''d need him to call his parents to convince me that he means it officially.)

Back on topic (more or less)... I don''t think we''re talking about an ultimatum. We''re talking about if we would leave the relationship... which is a little bit different than threatening to leave the relationship if he doesn''t step up to the plate.
And I feel that it''s very conditional. If a guy is 30 and wants to wait an indefinite amount of time to be more stable with money or because he doesn''t feel ready quite yet (and it''s not a new relationship), then I''d dump his @ss. (what I personally would do). If a guy is 22 and says the same thing, hopefully giving a definite goal, then I''d suggest sticking around a bit longer

Very well said, Wren...

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 3/29/2006 4:41:04 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne

So let me ask you ladies this then. If your SO didn''t really want to get married for whatever reason, money, school, unsure, scared, and you told him marry me or I''m leaving and then he did, is that okay with you?

That''s just it....I wouldn''t say ''marry me or I''m leaving''. I''d find out what he wants and if there is a way to reconcile it with what I want. If there is a way, then I''ll stay. If there isn''t, then I need to accept that and move on.

We aren''t talking about valid reasons to delay here. Of course it''s reasonable to say '' I want to marry after I get out of college/after I complete my exams/once I''ve paid off my outstanding debt, etc.'' There are a whole host of sensible considerations that go into making the decision to marry.

I think what most of us are referring to is the vague, nebulous, ''well, I can KINDA see getting married sooooooooomeday......but what''s the big deal anyway......Sure, I see you in my future (with NO further details)........it''s just a piece of paper........etc. etc.'' THAT kind of vagueness wouldn''t fly for me.

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne
But if they wanted to someday, then I''d stick around if the relationship was strong and healthy.

How can the relationship be strong and healthy if one person''s needs -- vital needs -- aren''t being met? How can the relationship be healthy for one''s self-esteem....knowing the other person doesn''t WANT to commit to him/her?

If marriage is important to a person, it''s important. It''s not like sacrificing going out on a Saturday night bedause he''d rather stay in. It''s so much more than that, and one cannot just set that aside.

Date: 3/29/2006 2:45:01 PM
Author: klavigne

After all marriage is really only a piece of paper, commitment to another person for life can not be captured with a few nice words and a stamp from the state. JMHO.

As someone who is married, I can absolutely assure you that marriage is much, much, MUCH more than ''just a piece of paper''. Believe me on this one.

I think you covered this EXCELLENTLY...Marriage is SO much more than just a piece of paper and so is a life commitment to someone. I would be married to my DH whether he and I have a home, a ring, a job or clothes on our bods...I made a commitment and I intend on upholding that commitment, irregardless of what else life throws our way. THAT is the kind of commitment and loyalty needed to sustain a marriage....

Not thinking of how in the hell things will work out should it not work...that is planning for failure...what you plan for, you get...

 

[icekid]

I think Mara and Alj have already eloquently stated the reasons that I too voted that "yes, I would leave."

If we''re not heading in the same direction, in very a similar timeframe, then I don''t plan to hang around to find out that he still can''t decide 5 years later.

Of course, if we''re talking about a couple who are both 21, I could see waiting longer. Probably not so much if we''re talking about people who are 35.