IF you didn''t have children would you want children and why?

[Joolskie]

DH and I were college sweethearts. We got together way before either one of us would even have thought about kids. But for us, it was definitely a "when we have kids" relationship. We both knew that being parents was something we would want someday. Our sons are now 4- and 7-years-old. Becoming parents was a life altering experience. And for us, it was an experience that has brought DH and I even closer together while also expanding who we are as individuals.

Parenting is tough. Really tough. But the rewards are many.

We have friends who are childless by choice. And it''s all good to me. No one should feel pressured to be a parent if they truly do not want to be. Life can be very full and extremely satisfying with or without kids.

My sister-in-law has never had children. But she is truly SuperAunt. She loves to spoil my boys and loves to take them to museums, cultural events, etc. But she loves to go home to her childless home at the end of the day and relax. She is happy, successful, content and lives a very full life.

Having kids means making HUGE adjustments. For DH and I, those adjustments were ones we wanted to make. But I can TOTALLY understand not wanting to make those adjustments.

I love my kids more than anything on this planet. And I feel honored and blessed that I get to be their mom. But once those boys are out of college... it will be time for the Joolskie and Mr. Joolskie party to start back up again. WHOO HOO!!! LOLOLOL!!!!!!

 

[surfgirl]

Never wanted them, dont have them, dont plan on having them. Love my nephews but love returning them at the end of the day even more! But I just might adopt someday. I was sort of thinking I''d rather adopt a kid that is the age that my friends/peers kids are so IF I/we decide to adopt ever, it''ll likely be a 21 year old Harvard student, preferably medical or legal track, so s/he can take care of us in our old age...

 

[Fly Girl]

Date: 2/9/2008 2:12:15 AM
Author: hairgirl95
Wow excellent topic! This is one that I am personally struggling with. We have been married for 3 years this May. I am 31, DH is 35. We have gotten pregnant twice and both ended in a miscarriage. I have been on the fence as to if I want to try again. When I was younger I said I didn''t want kids at all. That changed when I turned 27. I was super gung ho wanting kids. I was ready but DH wasn''t. When we started trying I was super excited. Now, I am starting to revert back to the I don''t want them phase. Maybe it will change, maybe it won''t. We have fun just the two of us so I guess it could go either way. Time will tell!

Hang in there. I had 3 miscarriages, then lots of testing which found absolutely nothing wrong with either of us. Finally had our son at 32 after 3 years of trying. Those 3 miscarriages were the most difficult time in my life, but things worked out for us, and chances are they will for you, too.

Courage!!!

 

[zhuzhu]

I have a lot of respect for everyone''s response. Some very traditional people I know think of us "no children necessary marriage" as only selfish people would do. I think otherwise. I think it is more responsible to be ready before becoming parents than having kids just for the sake of "fitting in".

I go "gagawowahwah" when seeing cute little babies/children of others, but at the same time I feel just as strongly loving when I see a wild cat! Go figure!!!

 

[snlee]

I''ve always known I wanted children. My husband wants children too. We don''t have any yet but hopefully it''ll happen soon. I respect those that choose not to have any children. I know it isn''t for everyone. It''s a major life changing decision.

 

[bee*]

I never ever wanted kids however I started changing my mind a little about six months ago. I think it was when my cousin had her baby and I went in to visit her in the hospital and held the baby for the first time that I felt myself change a little bit. I wouldn''t want them until I''m in my early thirties (I''m 26 now), as I have another three years in college to go, however I do think that I would be unhappy if I didn''t have them. I''m still struggling with this idea as I was against them for so long, however I''d love to see D as a dad. He''s always loved kids and is delighted that I''m more up for them now and I do think that he would make a great dad.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

This is a good thread, I''ve really enjoyed reading everybody''s replies.

I''ve been back and forth about wanting kids for the past five years or so. For now DH and I think we''ll have kids (no more than 2), but I don''t feel even remotely close to ready yet. Our baby timeline keeps getting pushed back. I have some genuine fears about motherhood. Like many other posters, DH and I dote on our dog. He''s a certified water rescue dog, a therapy dog, he does carting etc. and he''s just a dog. I don''t want to be one of those parents who pushes their kid, but I know I can be overbearing at times. I fear that I''ll be THAT mom. Also, our lifestyles are too hectic right now--we work long hours, we have a ton of hobbies, we love to travel. I''m afraid of changing all of that.

I think we would be content and have rich, full lives if we didn''t have kids, but if we somehow got pregnant tomorrow, we would be 100% okay with that...right after I had a nervous breakdown.

 

[FrekeChild]

We don''t want kids. Now doggies on the other hand...

Seriously for us it''s a whole lot of medical issues. He''s got heart defects, heart disease, diabetes and cancer on his side. I''ve got hypothyroidism, and who knows what else because I''m adopted and know nothing about my family''s history.

Also for us it''s a matter of being socially aware and thinking about how over populated the world is already. We don''t want to contribute to that. We figure that if we were to have kids, we would have only 2 to take our places, and it seems our siblings have already made up for us not having kids. For instance, his sister has 2 kids, my 43 year old brother has 2 kids and another on the way, and my 45 year old brother has 4 kids. And honestly, as far as I can tell, none of them can afford that many. The BF''s sister is a single mom who struggles on a regular basis, the 43 year old, his wife and three kids are going to be living in a one bedroom apartment because that''s all they can afford, even though they were offered a FREE 5 bedroom house from his mom, and the 45 year old seems to do alright for himself but had cancer a while back and lost his job and since then has been struggling with depression and a worse paying job, which would probably be fine except that his wife is a leech. I''ll stop now.

If we ever have a kid, it will most certainly be adopted, lots of children need homes out there. I used to be one of them.

Anyway, so health issues, money issues, and social issues as well as us just being selfish and wanting to travel and play for the rest of our lives go into it. So, no kids for us, but probably plenty of puppies!!

 

[Pandora II]

I have never been sure about having kids and have enough hobbies and interests that I could be perfectly happy without any. If you'd asked me a month ago, I'd have said I was 80% certain we wouldn't have any.

Last week FI and I sat down and had the 'babies' talk. He will be 33 this year and I will be 36 so the clock is ticking away. I'm currently a local politician as well as having a full-time job - but I don't plan to stand for re-election in 2010.

Maternity leave is a year in the UK, but after the first 3 months your salary takes a mega-nosedive for the next 9 months. My political job has an allowance that isn't factored into my maternity payments - as you don't get any maternity leave as an elected representative - so it would give me a decent amount on top of my maternity pay which would be a real help.

So, we did some sums and in order to make the most of it I would need to get pregnant by the end of the year.

That was a huge shock!

We then discussed whether we wanted any at all - FI's easy either way. In the end, he said that the very fact I was finding it so difficult to decide probably meant I did actually want children. We are also intrigued to see what we would produce!

It was so weird, I suddenly in the space of 5 minutes found I was really excited about the idea, and I'm now I've made the decision, I'm really looking forward to it. We are only planning on having one as we probably couldn't afford a second with the horrific house-prices here, and being in London there are so many things for kids to do that they won't be lonely. Anyway, my mother had me and my sister close together so we could be friends and we had totally different interests and hated each other!

I'm going to see my GP in the next couple of weeks to discuss it and the implications of the drugs I'm on (and can't come off) - he will be delighted as he's been getting at me for over a year now about it. Here comes the Folic Acid overdose

Basically we need to start TTC in October this year. If I'm like the rest of the women in my family, who have stacks of kids and none of whom have taken more than 2 months to conceive, it could be a honeymoon baby.

Although, knowing my luck it'll take two years and I'll end up with triplets!

We have made the decision that if we do have problems ttc, we will accept that as fate. I don't want to go through the emotional turmoil of IVF etc - I'll just add to the current zoo that has taken over our second bedroom...

 

[perry]

If you had told me when I was in my 20''s that I would not marry and have kids I would have considered you crazy....

I also worked hard not to have any kids out of wedlock too....

Now... Hmmmm.... Tough subject. A number of people my age are grandparents now... and very few have young kids.

I''d still like to share life with kids, and I''d still like to have someone out there carying on after me. Since I am the primary caregiver (or at least care organizer) for my parents it gives me an idea of what issues I will face in the future - and at this point alone.

There is a lot to think of on the issue....

Kids are the future.

In the end though - what will be will be, and I am sure I will enjoy my future years - just as I have enjoyed my past years...

And I am still looking for that one special gal in my life.... Who knows what the future will bring.

Perry

 

[guylian]

This topic touches me in more ways than one. My dh and I have always talked about wanting and having kids, unlike others, it is a dream we embrace and share. We were college sweethearts. Over the past 12 yrs, we''ve faced many obstacles but two major factors - our demanding careers (my 2nd) and with my medical condition, it just seems like an ongoing struggle than anything. In my previous career, I worked with children and families and it was an absolute delight! I found myself getting too attached to families and their children. After 7 and half years, I found a new calling and it could not have happened at a better time. However, now in our 30s, our career has catapulted once again that our dreams of having a family one day seem to be diffusing more than ever...day by day by day.

We have discussed options, but we remain hopeful that it will happen someday. Meanwhile, we both come from a small nuclear family. But with several god-children and 3 wonderful nieces, I think we have great coverage for future sitters! Our nieces bring us so much joy! They reminded my dh and I over the holidays to get the ball rolling already (these girls are 7, 8, and 9!)... LOL!

Unfortunately pets are not an option.

We are both allergic to them!

 

[icekid]

Hubby and I go back and forth on this as well, but more likely we will have children. And when I say have them, I mean adopt

The thought of seeing my husband as a daddy makes so excited though! I''ve wanted to adopt since I was a little girl, for some reason. Guess I felt called to it. Hubby is lobbying for one bio kid though. However, I am not embarrassed to admit that I am really scared of what a pregnancy would do to my body. I am a all around TINY 5''1" girl, and I don''t think I am built for that sort of thing. My mom did not have small babies either! I was almost 9 pounds

I''m also not sure what this means for our living situation either though. Both sets of parents live in Buffalo and we are not really thinking we want to go back there. But I really cannot imagine having children and not being near my mom! So that complicates the decision-making as well. Meanwhile, I have been really hoping my husband''s married 33 year old sister would have a baby soon, but it does not look promising.

 

[orbaya]

We don''t have kids yet and we''ve been married for 8.5 years. We''re not 100% sure. I don''t mind if people ask if we have kids at all. I find it very annoying when people ask if we will have children; it''s just not their business. Especially people that I''ve just met.

 

[Rhea]

I knew from a very young age that I didn''t want children and purposely sought out a partner who didn''t want children either. I dated two people who said they didn''t want children when we started dating and then changed their minds and thought I would as well...I still haven''t and these guys and I quickly broke up.

We''re decided for several reasons. The easiest ones being that we enjoy travelling, we enjoy our free time, and our relationship with one another without being complicated by adding others to the mix. I have to admit, I do fear what decisions we may make as our friends start to get married and have children. I don''t like to think that I''d be influenced by them but it could happen. I hope that we''ll be able to pick up other childfree couples as friends and find more hobbies.

 

[Fed]

Interesting topic...I almost never post, but couldn''t resist here.

I hate kids, I always have. I go out of my way to avoid being around them to the point of not even allowing them in our house. My husband on the other hand likes kids, but only in small doses. He doesn''t like being around them all the time and he is not interested in taking care of them. So, I was very clear before we got engaged that I would never be willing to have kids. He was fine with that and two years into our marriage he had a vasectomy.

This did NOT go over well with his parents who think that I am denying them grandkids. So they think that I''m pretty much evil. He was also in the Army for 8 years were the first thing you are asked is "How many kids do you have?" Army wives looks like they are slapped in the face when told that you don''t have kids and won''t be having any. I was told all sorts of fun stuff from, I should work at the Gap so I still still bear kids and support by husband''s career to maybe I could be a notary public.

Happily we now live in the Washington D.C. area where I am an attorney and my husband is in law enforcement. We have 3 dogs (retired racing greyhound, miniature pinscher, and goldendoodle) and 4 cats (2 ragdolls and 2 rescues). My office has two other women that are also childfree so it''s a nice place to work without any kid pressure.

We have never once regretted our decision and can''t imagine our lives with kids. All of our friends are childfree (except for one who only has his kids part-time, and appears to have a very miserable life with his kids). We have very busy careers and lives that just could not accommodate kids.

 

[Beacon]

Date: 2/9/2008 3:34:28 PM
Author: zhuzhu
I have a lot of respect for everyone's response. Some very traditional people I know think of us 'no children necessary marriage' as only selfish people would do. I think otherwise. I think it is more responsible to be ready before becoming parents than having kids just for the sake of 'fitting in'.

I go 'gagawowahwah' when seeing cute little babies/children of others, but at the same time I feel just as strongly loving when I see a wild cat! Go figure!!!

This is something I have heard before and it genuinely confuses me. What I have heard is that not having kids is somehow 'selfish'. No one I know actually believes this, but I have heard of the concept so I think someone must believe it.

If you think about it, not having kids is being selfish against WHO? The kids you didn't have? It would be worse to have kids one did not want and then not raise them very nicely I think. The idea of not having kids as being 'selfish' implies that having kids is not very good and that by having them you are making your life harder and so you are 'selfish' by not making your life hard? But if that were the case then no one would really want kids. So that does not seem like the correct logic. I dunno, I just do not understand it at all.

 

[lumpkin]

Beacon, I have to disagree a little, and I don''t want to offend you because I like you. But I can''t agree that people who choose not to have kids are not being selfish, although probably unknowingly and without having given it thought in the same way that couples WITH kids have done. I do agree that some people really shouldn''t be parents and unfortunately those people often have several, and someone else can make that case.

I''ve had to rewrite this a little, because I didn''t think I felt very strongly about this, but I''m finding that as I think and write about it I feel more strongly than I thought.

Economically, when many couples, say 10% or more choose not to have kids and both work, along with even more people choose not to marry and have kids, it skews salaries to be lower because it''s assumed that everyone is working and companies don''t need to pay as much. For those with kids it becomes much harder. Both parents then have to work to save for college, retirement, and the added expenses, including child care, which is very expensive. Then when the kids reach the age of 12 and midddle school there are very few programs for them after school and they are left to their own devices at a time when their judgment is not developed and they can make choices that will ruin their lives (and possibly the lives of others). Our teenagers and younger kids are in a lot of trouble -- there are more ways for preditors to get to them and there is more trouble for them to get into. When my mom worked I was a latch key kid and she had to worry about alcohol, marijuanna and teenage pregnancy. Now there are a WHOLE lot more things kids can get into. So when it becomes common for people not to have kids, it really puts the burden of raising the next generation on the people who do, economically. Plus, those people who don''t have kids generally don''t want to network with people who do even within their own families (I KNOW about this), which means even less support for people raising kids. I''m not saying couples who don''t choose to have kids should feel badly, guilty or go ahead and have kids when they "hate" them, but...the kids that they hate are going to be the ones giving them medical care as they age, and those same "hated" children will be funding social security or whatever programs are in place. Whatever we pay into social security now while we work is funding the program now, and the next generations are going to be funding it when we are accessing those funds in retirement. But we are living longer than ever and there are more of us to support and fewer of them to support us.

Now talking about family...I am one of four children. Only two of us have kids, and my brother''s kids are adults now and they live accross the country. My two sisters live in town and don''t have kids. One sister does not babysit at all, never has. At family get togethers she and her husband chain smoke around our kids, which I don''t like at all. My other one doesn''t babysit much because since she doesn''t have kids, she doesn''t really see why she should be expected to ever watch mine. She''ll do it if I have a doctor''s appointment or if we go to help her do stuff at her house, but trust me, she always gets the better deal, and frankly I don''t like to bargain with the care of my children like that. My husband''s family is even less involved. It''s really sad that our kids don''t have any family that they interact with much but us, except on holidays. And yes, I think that is very selfish on our family''s part. But I have friends and we help each other out. I''m sure there are other people who don''t have family nearby and even if their families really do love their kids, they aren''t close by and some people would argue that, so what, you can''t count on family anyway. Eh. I''m not sure I''d buy into that. Kids know when they are loved even if it''s accross miles. And the other thing is my kids'' generation will be supporting and caring for these same people who don''t feel they should be expected to participate in their upbringing. And I''m sure my kids (and everyone else''s) won''t mind the burden of caring for those who couldn''t be bothered with them when they were children.

See, I really do feel more strongly than I thought I did....I''m sorry, but that''s my position on this subject, and although I respect other opinions that differ from mine, I''m living our situation 24/7, our children will be living it 24/7 in the future, and I don''t think anything can be said that will sway me. I think people in general are more self absorbed than in the past because our whole societal structure has made it easy to be. We don''t have to rely on each other in the short term anymore, and by the time a lot of these people realize that they will need to rely on others in advanced age, it will be too late and it will be a shame for everyone.

 

[Pandora II]

I'm afraid I really disagree with you here.

If I am paying my taxes and not having children, I am paying a large amount of $$$ to fund other people's childrens' education, child support money, school infastructures etc.

Far more people have children than don't so I don't agree with your economic argument. It could equally be said that women going out to work has skewed the system. For a start, house prices are high because two people's pay packages are going into financing the mortgage. This now means that unless your partner has a high paying job, a woman has to work as houses are unaffordable without two salaries. Women in the workforce also means that there are more people available for jobs thus allowing lower wages to be paid. It could therefore be argued that women are 'selfish' for wanting jobs.

Equally, just because a member of my family choses to have a child it doesn't mean that I should have to babysit their child anymore than they should have to babysit my pythons. I wouldn't expect anyone to babysit a child of mine unless I was paying them to do so. My sister has two children and I see them once a year if that. Ditto with FI's niece. They are their children and nothing to do with me. I'm interested to know why you feel that your family are selfish for not wanting to help bring up the offspring that YOU decided to have?

If you decide to have children, you need to make arrangements for childcare etc in advance of having them - ditto planning for your old-age. FI and I are already planning for our old-age so that we don't have to ever be a burden on our children and they have the freedom to live their lives as they wish. For example, what happens if a couple from different countries marry, whose parents should they choose to support in their old-age?

Both my and FI's mothers have made it very clear that whilst they'd love to see their grandchildren for a day or so every now and then - and they adore them - they aren't prepared to act as unpaid babysitters except in emergencies. They both have their own lives - have had their own children and are done child-rearing. We live a few hours drive from both of them, so it's not an issue, but I totally understand their feelings and think they are perfectly entitled to feel that way. I certainly don't think they are being selfish.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 2/10/2008 4:44:50 PM
Author: Pandora II
I''m afraid I really disagree with you here.

If I am paying my taxes and not having children, I am paying a large amount of $$$ to fund other people''s childrens'' education, child support money, school infastructures etc.

Far more people have children than don''t so I don''t agree with your economic argument. It could equally be said that women going out to work has skewed the system. For a start, house prices are high because two people''s pay packages are going into financing the mortgage. This now means that unless your partner has a high paying job, a woman has to work as houses are unaffordable without two salaries. Women in the workforce also means that there are more people available for jobs thus allowing lower wages to be paid. It could therefore be argued that women are ''selfish'' for wanting jobs.

Equally, just because a member of my family choses to have a child it doesn''t mean that I should have to babysit their child anymore than they should have to babysit my pythons. I wouldn''t expect anyone to babysit a child of mine unless I was paying them to do so. My sister has two children and I see them once a year if that. Ditto with FI''s niece. They are their children and nothing to do with me. I''m interested to know why you feel that your family are selfish for not wanting to help bring up the offspring that YOU decided to have?

If you decide to have children, you need to make arrangements for childcare etc in advance of having them - ditto planning for your old-age. FI and I are already planning for our old-age so that we don''t have to ever be a burden on our children and they have the freedom to live their lives as they wish. For example, what happens if a couple from different countries marry, whose parents should they choose to support in their old-age?

Both my and FI''s mothers have made it very clear that whilst they''d love to see their grandchildren for a day or so every now and then - and they adore them - they aren''t prepared to act as unpaid babysitters except in emergencies. They both have their own lives - have had their own children and are done child-rearing. We live a few hours drive from both of them, so it''s not an issue, but I totally understand their feelings and think they are perfectly entitled to feel that way. I certainly don''t think they are being selfish.

Ditto to all of this. I''d go farther and say that I dont really think it''s fair that people who dont have kids, have to pay taxes for schools for those that do. I think a fairer way to tax schooling would be for families to be taxes per child. If you have one kids you pay X school taxes. If you have more, well, then you have to pay more. So many people have a bunch of kids that they cant afford to have, they live above their means, and complain all the time (I''m not referring to anyone here, just in my real life in general) about how expensive it all is, blah blah blah and all I can wonder is why the heck did they have X number of kids when they couldn''t afford it in the first place? Not to mention so many people dont even seem to like being parents in the first place. They like having kids, but not the parenting part. That''s what baffles me...

 

[LegacyGirl]

As some others have said our dog is our baby

Maybe eventually we will have children but I still have at least 8 years before I have to start really worrying.

 

[coatimundi_org]

In agreement with Pandora''s post above.

I don''t want kids, but I have no problem paying taxes, so other''s kids can have an education, as everyone benefits from an educated society.

I have a big problem with someone saying that it is selfish NOT to have kids, as I AM paying to take care of your kids via taxes--whether one would like to admit it or not.

And as far as "it takes a village to raise a child?" No, it takes a parent.

 

[bee*]

Date: 2/10/2008 5:36:49 PM
Author: coatimundi
In agreement with Pandora''s post above.


I don''t want kids, but I have no problem paying taxes, so other''s kids can have an education, as everyone benefits from an educated society.


I have a big problem with someone saying that it is selfish NOT to have kids, as I AM paying to take care of your kids via taxes--whether one would like to admit it or not.


And as far as ''it takes a village to raise a child?'' No, it takes a parent.

Totally agree with you and Pandora. I don''t mind paying taxes for education as I''ve benefited from this and also as coati as said, we get an educated society, but in terms of things like babysitting, it''s your child so it''s not someone else''s responsibility to mind it. I have first hand experience of this with my cousin. She had her first baby last year and my aunt agreed to mind her at home for one year, then she was meant to go into a creche. Well that year was up a couple of months ago, however my cousin is about to have her next baby next month, and guess what, she''s asked my aunt to mind the next one, for a year only again

. There have been huge rows about this as my cousin just doesn''t see anything wrong with this situation, however my aunt only retired last year and wants to travel and do things with her husband. My mother has already told me not to expect the same thing, but I never would! Sorry about this rant, guess I''ve been hearing about it too much at home

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/10/2008 4:44:50 PM
Author: Pandora II
I'm afraid I really disagree with you here.

If I am paying my taxes and not having children, I am paying a large amount of $$$ to fund other people's childrens' education, child support money, school infastructures etc.

Far more people have children than don't so I don't agree with your economic argument. It could equally be said that women going out to work has skewed the system. For a start, house prices are high because two people's pay packages are going into financing the mortgage. This now means that unless your partner has a high paying job, a woman has to work as houses are unaffordable without two salaries. Women in the workforce also means that there are more people available for jobs thus allowing lower wages to be paid. It could therefore be argued that women are 'selfish' for wanting jobs.

Equally, just because a member of my family choses to have a child it doesn't mean that I should have to babysit their child anymore than they should have to babysit my pythons. I wouldn't expect anyone to babysit a child of mine unless I was paying them to do so. My sister has two children and I see them once a year if that. Ditto with FI's niece. They are their children and nothing to do with me. I'm interested to know why you feel that your family are selfish for not wanting to help bring up the offspring that YOU decided to have?

If you decide to have children, you need to make arrangements for childcare etc in advance of having them - ditto planning for your old-age. FI and I are already planning for our old-age so that we don't have to ever be a burden on our children and they have the freedom to live their lives as they wish. For example, what happens if a couple from different countries marry, whose parents should they choose to support in their old-age?

Both my and FI's mothers have made it very clear that whilst they'd love to see their grandchildren for a day or so every now and then - and they adore them - they aren't prepared to act as unpaid babysitters except in emergencies. They both have their own lives - have had their own children and are done child-rearing. We live a few hours drive from both of them, so it's not an issue, but I totally understand their feelings and think they are perfectly entitled to feel that way. I certainly don't think they are being selfish.

ETA I meant to say Surfgirl. I felt very similarly to you at one time. Why should I pay taxes for other peoples kids' education and all that. But since everyone benefits from having a new generation that is educated and ready to take over as others age and retire, we all benefit, not just the people with the children.

I also think I need to clarify that I don't expect my family to babysit all the time or to watch my kids while I work so I don't have to pay for childcare. I'm talking about 2 or 3 times a year, and they are family. We do a lot to help my one sister and mother out (the other never has a need) and we spend much more time doing for them without asking them to babysit. I suppose we could say, "It's your house. Hire someone to fix your plumbing, electricity, computer, etc." I think it would be selfish for us to not help when we can, even though they can afford to pay someone to come and do it for them. Having the children welcome in the family is an act of love, and I'm sorry, but I do think it's selfish when that love is withheld. And we love our kids, and being parents. And I have dog sat my mother and sister's dogs and cats numerous times when they went out of town.

I will amend my statement that I think people who don't have kids are being selfish. I should say that people who don't want to contribute in any way to the welfare and upbringing of the next generation are and I understand that point of view.

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/10/2008 6:09:23 PM
Author: bee*


Totally agree with you and Pandora. I don''t mind paying taxes for education as I''ve benefited from this and also as coati as said, we get an educated society, but in terms of things like babysitting, it''s your child so it''s not someone else''s responsibility to mind it. I have first hand experience of this with my cousin. She had her first baby last year and my aunt agreed to mind her at home for one year, then she was meant to go into a creche. Well that year was up a couple of months ago, however my cousin is about to have her next baby next month, and guess what, she''s asked my aunt to mind the next one, for a year only again

. There have been huge rows about this as my cousin just doesn''t see anything wrong with this situation, however my aunt only retired last year and wants to travel and do things with her husband. My mother has already told me not to expect the same thing, but I never would! Sorry about this rant, guess I''ve been hearing about it too much at home

Oh, Bee, that is terrible, and that''s not the kind of baby sitting I mean at all. I just wish my family would happily take the kids on a Saturday evening so we could go to the movies! Like twice or three times a year!!! I don''t agree at all with people dumpking their kids on others. That''s not what I meant at all.

 

[ephemery1]

Chiming in on the selfish thing: I work in social services and deal with people all day long who've been screwed up by bad parents. I also see people that decide to get pregnant because they're bored, or trying to fill a void, or want a cute new accessory, or think that's what comes next after marriage. THAT'S selfish. Because when people have kids for the wrong reasons, the kids suffer. And the world is NOT a better place because of it.

So when I meet somebody who says they've chosen not to have children, I think "Wow... good for you, for thinking this through and making an educated decision based on your lifestyle and your needs/wants, as well as those of your partner. There should be more people like you." And I'm not surprised there are so many "childless by choice" couples on Pricescope, because the PS community as a whole tends to be smart, thoughtful and responsible.

I personally always wanted children (and can't wait for ours to arrive in October!

) but I have equal respect for people who choose otherwise. And I'm glad my children will grow up with you in the world to be their relatives and role models.

 

[Kaleigh]

For those that don''t want to pay taxes when they choose not to have kids, how about all the people that paid taxes so you could go to school?? Thinking it all balances out...

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/10/2008 4:59:05 PM
Author: surfgirl

Ditto to all of this. I''d go farther and say that I dont really think it''s fair that people who dont have kids, have to pay taxes for schools for those that do. I think a fairer way to tax schooling would be for families to be taxes per child. If you have one kids you pay X school taxes. If you have more, well, then you have to pay more. So many people have a bunch of kids that they cant afford to have, they live above their means, and complain all the time (I''m not referring to anyone here, just in my real life in general) about how expensive it all is, blah blah blah and all I can wonder is why the heck did they have X number of kids when they couldn''t afford it in the first place? Not to mention so many people dont even seem to like being parents in the first place. They like having kids, but not the parenting part. That''s what baffles me...

Surfgirl, again, at one time I felt as you do. We thought we were truly set when we had our first child. A retirement fund, stocks, bonds, two paid for cars, etc. Raising kids really really is expensive, and you have no idea how much until you have one. And I do complain at times, but parenting is just hard. It is. I wouldn''t change anything and I do love being a mom and I love my boys. It''s still hard, and unless you''ve participated in raising children, you can''t know just what it is, and even if you have all kids are so different.

My BIL sat accross from me at the Christmas dinner table and was talking about the same kinds of things you''ve brought up. They don''t have any children together, and his kids were raised by his first wife. He didn''t participate in their upbringing. Come to think of it, that should kinda give me a clue about his point of view. Anyway, I digress.... He said, "Wouldn''t it be great if couples could go have a test to see if their genetics would produce a child with any kind of illness? For instance, Autism." I couldn''t believe that. Here we have two really wonderful children who are on the spectrum, and lots of people in history (think Einstein) who probably were as well. I just could not believe he could look me in the eye and say something like that. I was polite and said, "Well, Autism is a spectrum disorder. And actually a lot of Autistic people have made major contributions to society." I further told him that you don''t know what ever is going to happen with your children anyway. Illness, accidents, any number of things can happen that would make unusual and devastating financial strain on parents. So if you think a test is going to be a guarantee, it isn''t.

Anyway, we are all talking from our own experiences, and probably mine have left me a little raw and ranting lately.

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/10/2008 6:36:32 PM
Author: ephemery1
Chiming in on the selfish thing: I work in social services and deal with people all day long who''ve been screwed up by bad parents. I also see people that decide to get pregnant because they''re bored, or trying to fill a void, or want a cute new accessory, or think that''s what comes next after marriage. THAT''S selfish. Because when people have kids for the wrong reasons, the kids suffer. And the world is NOT a better place because of it.

So when I meet somebody who says they''ve chosen not to have children, I think ''Wow... good for you, for thinking this through and making an educated decision based on your lifestyle and your needs/wants, as well as those of your partner. There should be more people like you.'' And I''m not surprised there are so many ''childless by choice'' couples on Pricescope, because the PS community as a whole tends to be smart, thoughtful and responsible.

I personally always wanted children (and can''t wait for ours to arrive in October!

) but I have equal respect for people who choose otherwise. And I''m glad my children will grow up with you in the world to be their relatives and role models.

That is the case for people who SHOULD NOT have kids but have several (or many!). I so agree with you under these circumstances.

I also appreciate people who choose not to have children of their own but adopt. There is nothing more loving than that.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I am going to have to disagree wth lumpkin. I frankly think having large families is selfish. The world is overpopulated and a lot of the problems we face, ie global warming, famines, compitition for resources like oil, etc are all made worse by the population.
If people had far fewer children in the next generation, then they all get better access to everything because there is not so much compitition. Colleges can''t continue to raise their rates double the rate of inflation like they are if there aren''t enough people to support that.
I refuse to have more than 2 children because my FI and I don''t want to add to the world population, just enough to replace ourselves.
I am frankly horrified about the family in the south with 17 kids, there is no way the children are getting the care and attention they should and I think that is very selfish indeed.

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/10/2008 7:28:14 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
I am going to have to disagree wth lumpkin. I frankly think having large families is selfish. The world is overpopulated and a lot of the problems we face, ie global warming, famines, compitition for resources like oil, etc are all made worse by the population.
If people had far fewer children in the next generation, then they all get better access to everything because there is not so much compitition. Colleges can''t continue to raise their rates double the rate of inflation like they are if there aren''t enough people to support that.
I refuse to have more than 2 children because my FI and I don''t want to add to the world population, just enough to replace ourselves.
I am frankly horrified about the family in the south with 17 kids, there is no way the children are getting the care and attention they should and I think that is very selfish indeed.

I didn''t say anything about having 17 kids!!! OMG.