Imitation

[Kaleigh]

Bar is closed.

I want to say well done to Alj/ Allison. She really hit the nail on the head, for me anyway. Peace out!!!

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:08:58 AM
Author: MoonWater
*phew* I''m glad to read Ellen and Coati''s comments because one day, when I''m rich, I want exact replicas of Coati''s diamond ring and Ellen''s aqua!

hahaha! Whew! I''m glad you said that, because I seriously want to set an aca in your halo setting!

Capiche?

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/7/2009 7:58:43 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 1/7/2009 7:33:09 PM

Author: Kaleigh

Not at the pie moment yet, LOL!!!

forget the pie...we need some booze!!!

Amen! I''m still working my way through this thread!!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:24:38 AM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 1/8/2009 12:08:58 AM

Author: MoonWater

*phew* I''m glad to read Ellen and Coati''s comments because one day, when I''m rich, I want exact replicas of Coati''s diamond ring and Ellen''s aqua!

hahaha! Whew! I''m glad you said that, because I seriously want to set an aca in your halo setting!

Capiche?

Haha! Looks like we''ve got a deal!

 

[MonkeyPie]

This thread is funny but OMG it took forever to read lol. I originally missed the whole SG/PT drama but I looked it up, and I must say...this is the first time I''ve been disappointed here because of drama.

That said, anyone who wants to copy my ring, feel free. I got it from a chain store, hah. Plus I am in the process of getting - DA DA DAAA! - an upgrade! Any day now a chunky cushion will arrive on my doorstep, and then I order the setting. Woohoo!

 

[Dandi]

Date: 1/7/2009 1:45:59 AM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 1/7/2009 1:25:53 AM
Author: Harriet
Allison,
Please, please, don''t pick up that chainsaw.

This thread is meant to discuss the larger issue of how one would/should react to imitation, not Surfgirl in particular.

Harriet, the chainsaw isn''t about Surfgirl individually; I''d feel this way if you plugged any other name into the equation, and that does speak to the macro issue being discussed of imitiation.

For the life of me, I cannot see how it''s reasonable for anyone to think a design is ''hers alone'' unless she actually 1) contributes to the creation of the unique design either singly on or collaboration with her jeweler and 2) stipulates that the design is never to be reproduced. (Good luck with that one, because exclusivity comes at a cost many times more than simple custom work.)

EVEN THEN, there''s no guarantee that some other person at some point in time won''t have a substantially similar concept and wear a ring that looks materially like hers.

But to take ''imitation'' to the next level for something one only purchased (and purchased with no guarantee there is no other like it already and won''t be in the future) is patently ludricrous to me. To me, that''s as outlandish as being offended that anyone else (in real life or otherwise) might decide to purchase the exact same wedding gown I did.

I didn''t merely purchase my engagement ring; I had it made to combine all the elements I''d love into that significant piece. That said, my ring is meaningful because of the sentiment behind it and the giver of the ring, not because ''no one else has one like it.'' It''s a ring, not an identity. It''s a symbol of my husband''s love for me, not a symbol of exclusivity.

In fact, now someone else DOES have one like it......a dear friend of mine has always admired my ring. Her husband died at 45; the last gift he had given her was stud earrings for their 10th anniversary. She was afraid of losing them and decided to reset them with her engagement stone into a 3-stone ring. She asked for my help, and we pored through tons of designs and none spoke to her. We came to realize it was because she prefers 6-prong (which was the same thing that drove me when I couldn''t find a ring I liked and decided to have one made.) She had one made exceptionally similar to mine......with my blessing. It wouldn''t even cross my mind to worry about ''oh, now someone else has a ring just like mine.''

Thank goodness it wouldn''t, because two years into my time on PS, a gal in Australia posted her 3-stone which looked like a dead ringer for my ring. She hadn''t even ''copied'' it; it was in a local jewelry shop (I think in Melbourne?). Last year, I saw a vintage 3-stone ring that looked strikingly similar to my ring either.

Seriously, almost NOTHING is ''original'' at this point in jewelry design, so why get all in a twist about imitation? I don''t get it, especially when it can hurt someone else.

Hi Allison dear, I believe (I think?! Well, I hope now, so as not to make a boob of myself

) that was me! You have an awesome memory! My heart skipped a beat when I saw your ring, purely because I''d never seen anything else just like it or mine. I was very new to PS then and was rapt to think I shared similar tastes to such a well-liked and highly respected member of the forum!!

In the original context of the thread, I''d be flattered if someone admired a piece of jewellery I owned so much, that they HAD to have something the same or similar for themselves. Unless, as it''s been brought up by several posters before me, it was someone I knew or saw alot of, that had a replica made but bigger or ''better'' in their own definition, than mine, as a means of competition. That would tick me off.

 

[musey]

Sorry if this is poor form, but SG''s ring can still be seen toward the end of this thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wedding-sets-any-2mm-e-rings-with-3mm-wedding-bands.84538/


A few people were saying they wished they could still see it, so that''s why I posted the link. If my posting it is inappropriate or offensive in any way please report it so it can be removed.
Thanks.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2009 11:34:49 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 1/7/2009 10:22:41 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/7/2009 8:22:05 PM

Author: Allison D.



An inspired-by piece likely doesn''t require permission as it''s not an exact replica, and in the case of an exact replica, you''d have to approach the copyright owner, which is seldom the ring owner.

If you had actually said that then there would not have been an issue.

That IS what I said.

Look again.

I did look again and you did not say: "and in the case of an exact replica, you''d have to approach the copyright owner, which is seldom the ring owner."
You said an inspired piece which is flat out wrong if it is to close to the original if the copyright is still active.

Also while WF may charge more for keeping it exclusive I have discussed projects with 3 different benchman who have had no problem signing over any copyright claims for adjustments to my designs and would not charge extra for it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/7/2009 10:49:30 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 1/7/2009 10:46:48 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/7/2009 10:34:57 PM
Author: 777_LDY
Ellen, you are the greatest!

I still can''t get over that! It will have me laughing for some time! Thank you.

You''re very welcome. And thank you.

Ok that was the best Miss Ellen. You had me crying with laughter...

Glad you all liked it!

Linda and Miss 7''s, thank you, and likwise.

Moon, I''m flattered!

 

[natalina]

Date: 1/7/2009 11:15:00 AM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 1/7/2009 10:03:58 AM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/7/2009 9:43:03 AM
Author: Pandora II
I just think it''s a little sad that people who own unique/custom/antique pieces may well think twice about posting them in detail in future.

Since you feel free to discuss what the OP should & should not have done ... I''ll say that I think it was in very poor taste to crash that woman''s thread on behalf of anyone. And I think its ''a little sad'' that someone would avail themselves of the assistance, support and positive aspects of PS when it was convenient for *them* only to later balk at being generous & actively diminish the positive feelings of someone who seemed to have no ill will at all ON THEIR OWN THREAD. That is, if she asked you to post. If you posted about her feelings without her permission, I''ll stand corrected.

Change has come to one clique. Indeed.

How many people can I ditto on this thread?

So, let me get this straight. It''s OK to post your ring and have countless people say ''I LOVE YOUR RING!'' and stroke your ego, but it''s not OK for anyone to get inspiration from it? Give me a bloody break. This has been unbelievably petty...and I''m using the nicest word I can find.

I was totally disgusted that PT''s thread was even crashed to let SG''s feelings be known.

I would like to think that PSers are as beautiful inside as the rings they wear. Perhaps not in all cases.

As many said, it wouldn''t be unreasonable for to be a bit miffed if someone IRL copied your design exactly, especially if it was unique. But on the Internet? On a jewelry forum. Holy sh*t.

Alj, I love that you can still be you. So true what you said. How many people copied Mara''s ring, to her delight and her assistance with the project? How many people here have been happy to help others find inspiration? Give me your chainsaw woman.

And Coati, just a shout out to you for being so gracious about your ring, which has been one of the most unique I''ve seen on here in a while. I love it...it''s hands down my favorite ring and I dream someday about asking if you don''t mind if I use it for inspiration! But it will always be first and foremost a Coati ring and a tribute to your fantastic taste.

This sums up exactly how I feel, too

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 1/8/2009 3:27:34 AM
Author: strmrdr

I did look again and you did not say: ''and in the case of an exact replica, you''d have to approach the copyright owner, which is seldom the ring owner.''

Karl, there was no reason to add the disclaimer about exact copies because WE WERE NOT TALKING about EXACT replicas! That''s not the title of the thread. It''s called IMITATIONS, and the entire 12-page discussion has been about INSPIRED RINGS. As such, there was no NEED for me to add the final piece because that''s not what we were talking about!

But if you want to talk about what I didn''t say, let''s talk about what ELSE I didn''t say.

1. I didn''t say it was ok to infringe on copyrights.
2. I didn''t say that posting photos negated the rights of copyright owners.
3. I didn''t say that posting photos makes it fair game to perpetrate design theft.

I didn''t say ANY of it....and I don''t appreciate your inference otherwise.

Date: 1/8/2009 3:27:34 AM
Author: strmrdr

Also while WF may charge more for keeping it exclusive I have discussed projects with 3 different benchman who have had no problem signing over any copyright claims for adjustments to my designs and would not charge extra for it.

Congratulations; you''ve identified vendors that offer terms amendable to you. That''s what it''s all about. There are enough different vendors out there with enough different policies and practices that there should be a right fit for everyone.

 

[777_LDY]

Date: 1/7/2009 10:09:39 PM
Author: Ellen
Heya friend!

Yeah ok, that''s probably not exactly what you had in mind, but it had bling!

I just had to tell you that I am still laughing over this! Your timing couldn''t have been better on more ways than one, Ellen!

I woke up and this was seriously the first thing I thought about. Had to double check the thread to make sure I didn''t make it up or something, thinking maybe those two glasses of wine I had might have gone straight to my head!

Just had to tell you again, fankies!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/8/2009 11:15:18 AM
Author: Allison D.

1. I didn't say it was ok to infringe on copyrights.

2. I didn't say that posting photos negated the rights of copyright owners.

3. I didn't say that posting photos makes it fair game to perpetrate design theft.


I didn't say ANY of it....and I don't appreciate your inference otherwise.

"1. No one should be under any delusion that there will never be another ring that looks like hers. If you were bright enough to think of that combination of elements, rest assured somebody somewhere will have had that same thought too either in a lifetime before yours, during yours, or after yours."

"I cannot relate to being devastated over someone having the same ring design, and I hope I never will understand it. I understanding about wanting a ring that is different from the standard and perhaps expresses the wearer's personality; that was part of my reason for going custom. I just don't see how that need translates into hoarding something and thinking that it will somehow be less special if anyone else wears a similar ring. Is it not special enough to know that you own the original? I guess not."

No it is not enough if the copyright is in effect and owned by the owner and or designer.
Copyright does exactly that it allows one a hoard a design and control how and when copies are made.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/8/2009 11:16:15 AM
Author: 777_LDY

Date: 1/7/2009 10:09:39 PM
Author: Ellen
Heya friend!

Yeah ok, that''s probably not exactly what you had in mind, but it had bling!

I just had to tell you that I am still laughing over this! Your timing couldn''t have been better on more ways than one, Ellen!

I woke up and this was seriously the first thing I thought about. Had to double check the thread to make sure I didn''t make it up or something, thinking maybe those two glasses of wine I had might have gone straight to my head!

Just had to tell you again, fankies!

You is welcome!

 

[Harriet]

I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who''s met me, please tell everyone that that''s not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/8/2009 11:38:12 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/8/2009 11:15:18 AM
Author: Allison D.

1. I didn''t say it was ok to infringe on copyrights.

2. I didn''t say that posting photos negated the rights of copyright owners.

3. I didn''t say that posting photos makes it fair game to perpetrate design theft.


I didn''t say ANY of it....and I don''t appreciate your inference otherwise.

''1. No one should be under any delusion that there will never be another ring that looks like hers. If you were bright enough to think of that combination of elements, rest assured somebody somewhere will have had that same thought too either in a lifetime before yours, during yours, or after yours.''

''I cannot relate to being devastated over someone having the same ring design, and I hope I never will understand it. I understanding about wanting a ring that is different from the standard and perhaps expresses the wearer''s personality; that was part of my reason for going custom. I just don''t see how that need translates into hoarding something and thinking that it will somehow be less special if anyone else wears a similar ring. Is it not special enough to know that you own the original? I guess not.''

No it is not enough if the copyright is in effect and owned by the owner and or designer.
Copyright does exactly that it allows one a hoard a design and control how and when copies are made.

Dude, strm, if you want to continue to fan flames, take a lesson from DF...at least be amusing about it.

Harriet, I''ve seen your photos and c''mon, come clean. That was you.

 

[Harriet]

Strm and TG,

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:17:59 PM
Author: Harriet
I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who''s met me, please tell everyone that that''s not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

 

[steph72276]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:38:05 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:17:59 PM

Author: Harriet

I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who''s met me, please tell everyone that that''s not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

Don''t worry. I didn''t believe it....someone with your taste in jewelry could NOT be that woman!! Hahaha!

 

[Harriet]

Thank you.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:42:46 PM
Author: steph72276

Date: 1/8/2009 12:38:05 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:17:59 PM

Author: Harriet

I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who's met me, please tell everyone that that's not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

Don't worry. I didn't believe it....someone with your taste in jewelry could NOT be that woman!! Hahaha!

But, did you see the halo on the left ring finger?? Harriet has a halo ring too....

Just razzin ya Harriet!

(and I never meant to imply it was you to begin with)

 

[777_LDY]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:57:47 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:42:46 PM
Author: steph72276

Date: 1/8/2009 12:38:05 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:17:59 PM

Author: Harriet

I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who's met me, please tell everyone that that's not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

Don't worry. I didn't believe it....someone with your taste in jewelry could NOT be that woman!! Hahaha!

But, did you see the halo on the left ring finger?? Harriet has a halo ring too....

Just razzin ya Harriet!

(and I never meant to imply it was you to begin with)

OMGness, I would never believe in a million years that would be YOU, Harriet!!!!!! You have waaaay better taste in jewelery!

But you must admit... it sure was funny!!

ETA: Um Steph, you might want to watch it again! I am pretty sure that wasn't really a woman!!!! I hope!

 

[onedrop]

Date: 1/7/2009 7:26:48 PM
Author: musey
Whoa, I''m having deja vu... when I saw this thread pop up on a username search I thought ''huh, that''s an old one!''

am I going crazy? Why did I think this thread already happened, at least 6 months ago??

I''ll echo the choir of ''okay through PS, lame in real life.'' I feel that one of the main points of posting our pieces is to give and receive inspiration, no? I was certainly ''inspired'' by a few pieces on here on my wedding band hunt (not so much the e-ring as that was mostly pre-PS).

AND by that same token, here are the things of mine that have been ''imitated'' through PS in the past year:

-2 people have gotten a ring with the same setting as my e-ring made, and cited me as their ''inspiration''
-5 (yes FIVE) people have bought the same wedding necklace that I got, after I posted about my arduous journey to find it (none of them would have seen it if not for me) and my deep love for its uniqueness (yes, it did bother me that that went somewhat out the window, but that''s the nature of consumerism)
-and-
-3 people have cited my wedding band as their inspiration to get a thin bezel band

Only one (yup) out of those 10 PSers ever said ''thanks musey!'' for inspiring their pieces.

Musey: Once you posted your wedding band, I knew I''d finally found what I was looking for! Sorry if I stole your idea, but you can see from my avatar that I went ahead with the Tiffany Jazz band. I''d tried numerous bands myself and just couldn''t decide, but once I tried the Jazz...that was it for me! So here is another "thank you" for posting your wedding band!! Although I would stop short of saying that I am "imitating" you, I was definitely inspired!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/8/2009 1:04:53 PM
Author: 777_LDY

Date: 1/8/2009 12:57:47 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:42:46 PM
Author: steph72276

Date: 1/8/2009 12:38:05 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:17:59 PM

Author: Harriet

I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who''s met me, please tell everyone that that''s not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

Don''t worry. I didn''t believe it....someone with your taste in jewelry could NOT be that woman!! Hahaha!

But, did you see the halo on the left ring finger?? Harriet has a halo ring too....

Just razzin ya Harriet!

(and I never meant to imply it was you to begin with)

OMGness, I would never believe in a million years that would be YOU, Harriet!!!!!! You have waaaay better taste in jewelery!

But you must admit... it sure was funny!!

ETA: Um Steph, you might want to watch it again! I am pretty sure that wasn''t really a woman!!!! I hope!

I was assuming she knew that, and was just speaking "figuratively", but just in case, good point!

 

[Thomperchik]

I respect everyone''s feelings and opinions, so here''s mine... I think this immature temper trantum is pointless, and if I''m mistaken, then please tell me we can move beyond the 8th grade...

 

[777_LDY]

Date: 1/8/2009 1:27:05 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 1:04:53 PM
Author: 777_LDY

Date: 1/8/2009 12:57:47 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:42:46 PM
Author: steph72276

Date: 1/8/2009 12:38:05 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/8/2009 12:17:59 PM

Author: Harriet

I just saw the video. ELLEN! Someone who''s met me, please tell everyone that that''s not me. Argh!!!!!!!!!!

Don''t worry. I didn''t believe it....someone with your taste in jewelry could NOT be that woman!! Hahaha!

But, did you see the halo on the left ring finger?? Harriet has a halo ring too....

Just razzin ya Harriet!

(and I never meant to imply it was you to begin with)

OMGness, I would never believe in a million years that would be YOU, Harriet!!!!!! You have waaaay better taste in jewelery!

But you must admit... it sure was funny!!

ETA: Um Steph, you might want to watch it again! I am pretty sure that wasn''t really a woman!!!! I hope!

I was assuming she knew that, and was just speaking ''figuratively'', but just in case, good point!

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 1/8/2009 11:38:12 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/8/2009 11:15:18 AM
Author: Allison D.

1. I didn't say it was ok to infringe on copyrights.

2. I didn't say that posting photos negated the rights of copyright owners.

3. I didn't say that posting photos makes it fair game to perpetrate design theft.


I didn't say ANY of it....and I don't appreciate your inference otherwise.

'1. No one should be under any delusion that there will never be another ring that looks like hers. If you were bright enough to think of that combination of elements, rest assured somebody somewhere will have had that same thought too either in a lifetime before yours, during yours, or after yours.'

Ok, now I understand why you're having trouble with this. You're confusing patent infringment with copyright infringement. Maybe I can help.

To establish copyright infringement, you have to demonstrate that 1) you hold a valid copyright, 2) someone else has copied your work, 3) there's a substantial similar between the accused copier's work and the PROTECTIBLE ELEMENTS of yours, 4) and that the infringer had access to your work to have copied it.

My quote above says 'if you were smart enough to dream it up, rest assured someone else may have been too." It's entirely possible for the same thought to occur to two different people (or MORE), and as long as neither had access to the other's work, neither is an infringement. Since it's possible for two people to have the same thought and create the same thing independent of one another, there can NEVER be an assurance that no ring will ever look materially similar to yours....it can happen without being infringement.

Copyright isn't the same thing as patent, Karl. You don't have to prove that no one has ever created a similar thing before in order to hold a valid copyright, so it's entirely possible that a copyrighted design might not be the only substantially similar iteration of a concept. Ideas are not copyrightable.

Notwithstanding the explanation above, the comment wasn't given in the context of a legal discussion anyway.

'I cannot relate to being devastated over someone having the same ring design, and I hope I never will understand it. I understanding about wanting a ring that is different from the standard and perhaps expresses the wearer's personality; that was part of my reason for going custom. I just don't see how that need translates into hoarding something and thinking that it will somehow be less special if anyone else wears a similar ring. Is it not special enough to know that you own the original? I guess not.'

This statement again has NOTHING to do with infringement, nor does it have anything to do with a legal concept. This is not a comment relating to copyright and ownership, and it's not a statement relative to the exclusive rights to allow or restrict distribution that copyright owners have under copyright law.

The comment was a statement about not understanding why someone would feel their ring was less special if someone else wore a similar ring. That's IT....that's all it said. I do not understand a person--any person--who can only feel his/her piece is special if no one else can have one like it. I feel that's a selfish spirit, and it's not one I can relate to. It smacks of the whole "I have something you can't have" mentality, and I abhor that.

Copyright does exactly that it allows one a hoard a design and control how and when copies are made.

Don't kid yourself. Most of the time, copyright is about money and getting paid for your creation, and most copyright owners are happy to sell a bazillion units if they think they can get paid for them. Even when they choose to restrict production (limited editions, for example), it's typically about money because the rarity/exclusivity elevates the market value so they get paid more.

But again, the comments you keep pointing to weren't made in the context of legal elements becaus this wasn't a thread about copyrights. If you wish to have the discussion in the context of copyright, Karl, I'd suggest you can start a separate thread and I'm sure people will be happy to comment within that context.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I''m kind of surprised this thread hasn''t been locked yet. Usually upon the point of any drama it gets shut down, but maybe this is theraputic?

I really think it''s kind of gotten out of hand. SG did NOT sketch, design, and copyright her ring, therefore PT is within her rights to do as she likes. JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE THAT DRAWS INSPIRATION FROM AN UNCOPYRIGHTED RING. Now, it''s probably best to at least make sure it isn''t copyrighted before you move forward, but PT DID THAT - by using the same people to create her ring.

I think this applies outside of the SG/PT situation, too. Find out of it''s copyrighted. If it isn''t, do what you please. If it IS, do not.

And Karl, I don''t think anybody here is saying otherwise.

 

[icekid]

Date: 1/7/2009 10:09:39 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/7/2009 9:38:29 PM
Author: 777_LDY

Only if you sing kumbaya with me.

Heya friend!

oh my, ELLEN! hahahahaha

don't worry Miss Harriet, we know the true you is a much better singer

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 1/8/2009 2:24:08 PM
Author: MonkeyPie
I'm kind of surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. Usually upon the point of any drama it gets shut down, but maybe this is theraputic?

I really think it's kind of gotten out of hand. SG did NOT sketch, design, and copyright her ring, therefore PT is within her rights to do as she likes. JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE THAT DRAWS INSPIRATION FROM AN UNCOPYRIGHTED RING. Now, it's probably best to at least make sure it isn't copyrighted before you move forward, but PT DID THAT - by using the same people to create her ring.

I think this applies outside of the SG/PT situation, too. Find out of it's copyrighted. If it isn't, do what you please. If it IS, do not.

And Karl, I don't think anybody here is saying otherwise.

Point of correction. Singlestone did not creat SG's ring. SG found it at an antique store, completely whole. It is reputed to be from the 1920's, and I don't think that anyone has done any copyright searches on it... althouhg I can't say what SG (or anyone) may or may not have done with any degree of certainty.

I wish we could have left this thread closed at Kaleigh's last post.

And Karl, to my knowledge and recollection, Alj is correct. And if I may advise, as a friend? Let it die.