Improve with a re-cut? And is it worth it?

[LilAlex]

This 2.01ct J/VS2 has a c1980 GIA report with the following data. This pre-dates the reporting of crown and pavilion angles but it seems shallow with a big table. And, grossly, it even looks like a big table to my diamond-untrained eye. Probably safe to say that this was a non-expert's "good deal" purchase forty years ago.

From the report:





And these are some representative ASET images. It may not be perfectly centered but it never looks better than this when I hold it with forceps, etc.






Is this worth considering for a re-cut? Would I need a modern report to gauge the crown and pavilion angles before proceeding or inquiring?

Is it kooky to try to ideal-cut a J-color stone?

I know there are not a lot of data here but is this likely to lose a lot of weight as I try to bend it toward a better cut? It will of course drop below 2 cts as soon as anyone touches it. OTOH, it has many small chips (by the report) and would probably get polished to < 2 ct before anyone did anything anyway...like mounted it in a ring.

I'd be grateful for any opinions and guidance. Thank you!

 

[Rons Wolfe]

I can't speak to other reasons, but the color of that stone wouldn't stop me for a moment.

 

[Karl_K]

leave it as is and put it in a pendant.
Even cutting it in to a better 60/60 proportion set your looking at a.33ct drop. To cut it into a tolk your looking more like .40-.5.
Those are just guesses until its seen and measured by a cutter nothing is certain, even if it can be recut.

 

[LilAlex]

leave it as is and put it in a pendant.

Ugh. Not another pendant!

Thank you, @Karl_K.

 

[Karl_K]

Ugh. Not another pendant!

Thank you, @Karl_K.

earring? tiara? tie tack?

 

[LilAlex]

earring? tiara? tie tack?

Would knowing the crown and pavilion angles help me make a decision? Or there's no scenario where it would be anything less than major surgery?

 

[Karl_K]

Would knowing the crown and pavilion angles help me make a decision? Or there's no scenario where it would be anything less than major surgery?

There is no question in my mind that it is major surgery.
Having more info might help narrow it down some as to how much but its going to be a lot of material removed.

 

[maryjane04]

I am no expert but I think a diamond with that depth would lose a lot on the face up/diameter if you were trying to recut. It might not be worth it. Maybe you could re polish it and then decide?

 

[Serg]

This 2.01ct J/VS2 has a c1980 GIA report with the following data. This pre-dates the reporting of crown and pavilion angles but it seems shallow with a big table. And, grossly, it even looks like a big table to my diamond-untrained eye. Probably safe to say that this was a non-expert's "good deal" purchase forty years ago.

From the report:


And these are some representative ASET images. It may not be perfectly centered but it never looks better than this when I hold it with forceps, etc.



Is this worth considering for a re-cut? Would I need a modern report to gauge the crown and pavilion angles before proceeding or inquiring?

Is it kooky to try to ideal-cut a J-color stone?

I know there are not a lot of data here but is this likely to lose a lot of weight as I try to bend it toward a better cut? It will of course drop below 2 cts as soon as anyone touches it. OTOH, it has many small chips (by the report) and would probably get polished to < 2 ct before anyone did anything anyway...like mounted it in a ring.

I'd be grateful for any opinions and guidance. Thank you!

If you upload scanned 3d model( ASC ,STL , mmd, ox2z formats) form for your diamond I will publish 2-3 precise options for recut in 2-3 days

 

[LilAlex]

I am no expert but I think a diamond with that depth would lose a lot on the face up/diameter if you were trying to recut.

It is 8.30 - 8.38 mm in diameter and that is closer to the face-up size of a 2.25-ct diamond, evidently with a typical 2-ct being more like 8.05 or 8.1 mm. So its only "good" attribute is its face-up size.

And I don't care about the chips; I just meant that anyone other than me would probably polish it. I'm sure the reason that it was attractively priced many (many) years ago was that any polish would drop it below 2.

 

[purplesilk]

earring? tiara? tie tack?

Tiara...@Karl_K : what a great suggestion!!!I love your attitude!!!

 

[purplesilk]

@LilAlex : obviously give more credit to Karl_K and Serg.
I' m not an expert, but, if the bad cut bothers you more than the thought of going below 2 ct, send the diamond to a cutter.

 

[AprilBaby]

The real question is, do you want a beautiful diamond or do you want more than 2 cts?

 

[LilAlex]

If you upload scanned 3d model( ASC ,STL , mmd, ox2z formats) form for your diamond I will publish 2-3 precise options for recut in 2-3 days

Thank you! I don't have any way to get that information; I'm a retail slob customer. But thank you for the kind offer!

The real question is, do you want a beautiful diamond or do you want more than 2 cts?

I know it will drop way below 2 no matter what I do. It's a sunk cost as it is -- and that cost was sunk many years ago. I just don't want it to be a white elephant forever.

I am inclined to turn it into something "mind-clean"-er even if it's not perfection. In our family, the "use case" for a smaller diamond is a lot clearer than for a big one -- but I wouldn't pare it down for that reason alone if it were well cut to begin with!

...if the bad cut bothers you...

I don't really know what bothers me. But I know it will cost me a bunch to make a nice piece of jewelry out of this the way I would like to. I need it to be "worth the effort."

Is there zero chance that a re-cut will be value-neutral? I assume that if it had been cost-effective to re-cut this pancake 2.01 into a 1.5 or 1.6 ct better-proportioned stone, that somebody would have done that already.

 

[LilAlex]

Is there zero chance that a re-cut will be value-neutral? I assume that if it had been cost-effective to re-cut this pancake 2.01 into a 1.5 or 1.6 ct better-proportioned stone, that somebody would have done that already.

Quoting myself but for clarification: I think this stone was "appraised" at about 10K. Not sure how much that factors in the poor cut. When I look at ideal-cut ~ 1.5 ct J/VS2 with the SEARCH tool here (as best-case "after" examples), I see about that same retail price or a little less -- and that's after I spend $1,000 to re-cut.

I had to show this in three "pieces" or else it would be too small to read -- it's only four stones:









In the end, I think the appearance is more imported to me than the size, though.

 

[headlight]

I think a beautifully cut stone is way better than what you currently have. That would be way more meaningful for me versus going below the 2 ct mark. If the stone was more borderline on its proportions then perhaps it would be a tougher decision but, no offense, I think this baby deserves a makeover! I had BGD recut 2 stones for me and the end results incredible! (I had another stone cut through a jeweler for which I had no input nor info and it was a bad experience.) I would send to BGD for consultation on what he can do for you. He will be straightforward and not promise you anything he cannot deliver… what he says he will do is phenomenal!

 

[Lookinagain]

I would recut it if the alternative is letting it sit around somewhere unused and unworn. Losing the size wouldn't bother me if the recut made it a more beautiful stone.

 

[LilAlex]

OK, I'm sold. I will see what Brian Gavin says!

 

[Kim N]

I would highly recommend Southwest Diamond Cutters as well. They did a fantastic job with my re-cut, and I believe their prices may be more affordable than BGD.

 

[ringo865]

@LilAlex keep us posted. I have a similar pancake crown diamond, but much much deeper. Curious what bg has to say about rehabbing yours (diameter, weight, cost, etc.)

@Kim N did you have to have a jeweler submit your diamond to them (trade) or did you call them directly (retail customer)? Curious about your experience with them. (Off to search for posts)

 

[Kim N]

@LilAlex keep us posted. I have a similar pancake crown diamond, but much much deeper. Curious what bg has to say about rehabbing yours (diameter, weight, cost, etc.)

@Kim N did you have to have a jeweler submit your diamond to them (trade) or did you call them directly (retail customer)? Curious about your experience with them. (Off to search for posts)

They worked with me directly. I also thought it was great that I could talk to the cutter himself during the process. There are a number of other PSers who have used them and been happy with their work.

 

[Dreamer_D]

How experienced are you with diamonds -- like, have you owned many high performance cuts or are you newer to these cuts? Have you compared this diamond to an ideal cut round in person? Sounds like you own it already and bought it many years ago. So how does it look to your eyes in person, putting aside "rules" and mind clean issues if possible?

I say all this because over the years and especially with wearing more old cuts, I have loosened my own parameters for cut somewhat. I can find enjoyment in a range of styles, especially if its something I already have for "free" so to speak! This one doesn't look so terrible to me and its probably very bright. If you are going to lose half a carat, and I bet a good half mm or more in diameter, it might not be a worthy tradeoff against the less than ideal cut! Especially if you are not a diamond aficionado and don't have anything to compare it to.

 

[Wink]

Is it kooky to try to ideal-cut a J-color stone?

Absolutely not. I personally wear a super ideal cut P color diamond that sparkles like the band.

I think you have gotten some excellent advice on this thread. Send send it to a good cutter and get some opinions from the cutter rather than guesses from us. Too bad GIA did not put the information you need on their reports forty years ago. It would have been fun to have Sergey share options with you.

Personally, I think you will be very much happier with a recut diamond that is way gorgeous.

 

[MMtwo]

I would rather have a smaller diamond I love that a bigger one I didn't.

 

[LilAlex]

And this is my dilemma in a nutshell:

I personally wear a super ideal cut P color diamond that sparkles like the band.

An expert knows to go for the nice cut (or at least seriously consider it)...

...especially if you are not a diamond aficionado and don't have anything to compare it to.

...but I am properly outed here as far from an expert on diamond appearance.

Still planning to send it in and see what can be done. I trust the experts. As my BIL says about breakfast, "I leave it to the professionals" [gets an Egg McMuffin every day on way to work]

 

[Dreamer_D]

It it a good plan to gather some information for sure. Then you can make the choice that works best for you! It will be a nice large Diamond even after a recut, too, and far more sparkly to boot. If size loss is lot important then better cut is usually better, especially in modern rounds.

The color is a non-issue to me for what it’s worth. My suite of diamonds are K-L and the light play is very interesting in tinted diamonds. Different than colourless and I prefer the warmth.

 

[MMtwo]

It it a good plan to gather some information for sure. Then you can make the choice that works best for you! It will be a nice large Diamond even after a recut, too, and far more sparkly to boot. If size loss is lot important then better cut is usually better, especially in modern rounds.

The color is a non-issue to me for what it’s worth. My suite of diamonds are K-L and the light play is very interesting in tinted diamonds. Different than colourless and I prefer the warmth.

Having had both, I prefer the look of a warmer diamond too.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I wouldn't touch it, but you may be more adventurous than I. What I really wanted to comment on was the GIA cert... I have never seen one that old (way before my time)! It's hand-plotted!!

 

[sledge]

Sounds to me like you've come to terms with the hardest part of the equation -- the money already spent is a sunk cost and you aren't getting it back. So you really only have a few options.

1. Keep as-is or maybe do a reset into something to work around what you perceive as a problem.

2. Sell it and start over.

3. Re-cut and move on.

Just my 2 cents, but you wouldn't be asking this question if you wanted the same ole, same ole. And I don't hear you saying you hate diamonds and don't want this one. You just don't like the proportions of the one you have. Regardless of color, I think a re-cut is the right answer for your situation based on what I've heard so far.

Of course, nothing comes without risk. But that's half the fun right? Just prepare mentally because it means your stone could be damaged trying to make it better.

But to be fair, you owe it to yourself to talk with BGD or Southwest Cutters to determine exactly where you are and where you can go with a re-cut. I don't know for sure but with the variables you've shared I suspect to keep as much weight/size as possible, the table will be larger with a shallower crown and steeper pavilion to help balance it out.

Even if it cost me a couple hundred bucks to have them scan my stone and tell me the possibilities, I think it's a worthwhile adventure. Worst case scenario, you hate the options & pull the plug, waste a few hundred bucks and sell the stone and start over. At least you tried. By chance if you're happy with the options and proceed down the road, you have a cool story.

Not that this tells the whole story, but just working the math, you can get max diameter by dividing by total depth.

4.80 / 0.576 = 8.33 <--- current stone @ 66% table, 57.6% depth, 8.34mm x 4.80mm

Using preferred depths of 60-62, you can see how total diameter sizes may fall.

4.80 / 0.60 = 8
4.80 / 0.61 = 7.86
4.80 / 0.62 = 7.74

Here is one example of a WF ACA 1.733 with 7.72mm x 4.75mm dimensions. You can see total diameter is shrinking but depth is nearly the same. The real question becomes will those crown & pavilion angles work with your existing stone. Truthfully I doubt it, but I don't have fancy pants diamond designer software to verify so I'm approximating on the fly with my head (man, that's a scary place to be, lol).

However, we can approximate the crown & pavilion angles if the report happens to provide the crown height and pavilion depth percentages. If I can get those angles reasonably close I can draw this up in AutoCAD which may provide a better representation.

Here is a potential example scenario:



As proof these calculations are reasonably close, here are the proportions of the example WF ACA stone I linked earlier agains the math calculation. Not exact, but close enough.

 

[LilAlex]

What I really wanted to comment on was the GIA cert... I have never seen one that old (way before my time)! It's hand-plotted!!

Yeah, I should re-cut the diamond and frame that creaky old report!

1. Keep as-is or maybe do a reset into something to work around what you perceive as a problem.

2. Sell it and start over.

3. Re-cut and move on.

I can't do 1 or 2. I would take such a bath trying to sell it. Yes, my ROI will be, uh, infinite since I was not the original buyer, but what I could buy with the sales price would be a lot less than what I can turn this into.

Using preferred depths of 60-62, you can see how total diameter sizes may fall.

4.80 / 0.60 = 8
4.80 / 0.61 = 7.86
4.80 / 0.62 = 7.74

I see where you're going but I had to read it twice!

This is all super-helpful and I really appreciate the time you invested to work up an example. It makes sense that the stone can never be bigger than it is in any single dimension and those constraints, along with the preferred geometry, are really helpful in evaluating potential "future states."

I contrast this one with the other one I asked about on this subforum back in (maybe?) September. That one had decent depth and table percentages but a super-shallow crown and deep pavilion. @Garry H (Cut Nut) and @Karl_K helped me recognize that the table and crown were actually pretty well-matched so it was not terrible to start. That one is going into a pendant (on another thread). This one is completely different.

I think I will go for it on this one -- at least start with the angles and hear the recommendations. At worst, as you say, it's a $1,000 experiment and I get a decent diamond at the end. I've spent way more than that on experiments -- but it's usually OPM* when I do it.


* Other people's money