Is anyone else here worried about this notion of redistribution of wealth?

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 12:46:10 PM
Author: MaggieB

There is nothing warm and fuzzy about us. We don't LOVE the criminals and want to hug the homeless.

I love many ex-criminals in a brotherly way and have hugged the homeless when they needed a hug.
That is the difference between liberals and real conservatives.
Libs think if they spend other peoples money on it they are doing a good deed, conservatives feel if they spend their time and money on it then it is a good deed.
99% of the volunteers at the local homeless shelter are conservatives/moderates
Out of all of them I have met only 1 has been a liberal democrat.
85% of the donations come from conservatives.

I have also sat down and said who do I want to give my hard earned money to today.
I have done that thousands of times.

 

[MaggieB]

Date: 10/30/2008 12:54:12 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/30/2008 12:46:10 PM
Author: MaggieB

There is nothing warm and fuzzy about us. We don''t LOVE the criminals and want to hug the homeless.

I love many ex-criminals in a brotherly way and have hugged the homeless when they needed a hug.
That is the difference between liberals and real conservatives.
Libs think if they spend other peoples money on it they are doing a good deed, conservatives feel if they spend their time and money on it then it is a good deed.
99% of the volunteers at the local homeless shelter are conservatives/moderates
Out of all of them I have met only 1 has been a liberal democrat.
85% of the donations come from conservatives.

I have also sat down and said who do I want to give my hard earned money to today.
I have done that thousands of times.

Karl, I have personally hugged the homeless too. As well as the two children who I mentored today, as well as the illiterate adult that I taught through the Adult Literacy League. I thought it was clear, but perhaps not, that I was speaking for a group of people in the millions. I do not believe that liberals as a whole are any softer hearted than conservatives. I think that we are motivated by what we believe to be needed to preserve our wonderful society.

That said - I don''t know what shelter you work at but I''ve never seen numbers like 99% conservative. I don''t believe that I know everything though, so maybe yours is. I completely disagree with your insulting characterization of liberals ; however, I will agree that conservatives are wonderful, caring people.

I''ll let someone else crunch the donation numbers. I''ll venture a guess, and only a guess, from personal experience. My conservative friends have a heck of a lot more money than my liberal friends. Might account for why donations are higher. On the other hand, only my liberal friends volunteer, which is the complete opposite from your experience.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 1:08:38 PM
Author: MaggieB


Karl, I have personally hugged the homeless too. As well as the two children who I mentored today, as well as the illiterate adult that I taught through the Adult Literacy League. bravo inst it kewl when someone finally gets it after struggling to read and get the realisation wow i actually read that!!


That said - I don''t know what shelter you work at but I''ve never seen numbers like 99% conservative. I don''t believe that I know everything though, so maybe yours is. I completely disagree with your insulting characterization of liberals ; however, I will agree that conservatives are wonderful, caring people. that is my experience with them they gripe about not enough money being spent on this or that but when it comes time to make a donation they aren''t very good at sharing their own money but want everyone else to share some of theirs, or when I invite them to come help out and they never show or say I have to get my hair done that day


I''ll let someone else crunch the donation numbers. I''ll venture a guess, and only a guess, from personal experience. My conservative friends have a heck of a lot more money than my liberal friends. Might account for why donations are higher. On the other hand, only my liberal friends volunteer, which is the complete opposite from your experience.

In my city the vast majority of volunteering is done by conservatives inside and outside of churches.

 

[sklingem]

Maybe because there are no liberals in your city - or maybe because the liberals don''t have the "luxury" to volunteer when they have to work three jobs??? Personal experience can''t be generalized to the whole country - you know that. Sigh.

 

[sklingem]

Date: 10/30/2008 8:09:34 AM
Author: Maria D

Date: 10/29/2008 11:37:58 PM

Author: Miranda

Date: 10/29/2008 10:59:12 PM

Oh yes we can! The difference is CHOICE. Some people CHOOSE to be plumbers, teachers, nurses or do nothing at all. It is a choice.

According to some economists, being unemployed is also a choice ... !!! That idea of free choice is such an oversimplification of reality, if not a blatant distortion of it. Hey, you are poor! Your choice!! Your bad! Your problem! Guess it makes a lot of people feel better about themselves believing such crap.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 1:30:30 PM
Author: rob09
Maybe because there are no liberals in your city - or maybe because the liberals don''t have the ''luxury'' to volunteer when they have to work three jobs??? Personal experience can''t be generalized to the whole country - you know that. Sigh.

There are plenty of them around more than 60% if you go by the election splits.
The libs I invited to help out make multiple times more than I do.
I may be conservative but I ain''t close to being rich.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 1:30:30 PM
Author: rob09
Maybe because there are no liberals in your city - or maybe because the liberals don''t have the ''luxury'' to volunteer when they have to work three jobs??? Personal experience can''t be generalized to the whole country - you know that. Sigh.

How many hours have you put in volunteering this year actually helping people?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 1:34:30 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/30/2008 8:09:34 AM

Author: Maria D

Date: 10/29/2008 11:37:58 PM


Author: Miranda

Date: 10/29/2008 10:59:12 PM

Oh yes we can! The difference is CHOICE. Some people CHOOSE to be plumbers, teachers, nurses or do nothing at all. It is a choice.

According to some economists, being unemployed is also a choice ... !!! That idea of free choice is such an oversimplification of reality, if not a blatant distortion of it. Hey, you are poor! Your choice!! Your bad! Your problem! Guess it makes a lot of people feel better about themselves believing such crap.

For some people unemployment is a choice and for some people being homeless is a choice.
Go help out at your local homeless shelter it will open your eyes.
Then come back and we will chat....

 

[swimmer]

Karl, just in my 21 min lunchbreak wanted to share that I and the teachers in my school and my friends all volunteer at least 10-15 hrs a week beyond our bleeding heart jobs. No Republicans in the bunch, either at the rehab hospital, the literacy center, or the health clinic. In fact, when thinking about it the only Republican I actually ever encounter is the crazy woman who screams "baby killer" accusingly to everyone who walks into the clinic (freaks out people there for TB tests). There are no medical procedures conducted in there, its a flu shot, mental health counseling kind of place, so I have to say I'm not sure what she is up to. No Republicans volunteer in my area because they just don't exist in my blue collar union/university student hood.

So, based upon both of our entirely anecdotal evidence, and our locations in extremely polarized areas, Reps and Dems are split 50/50.

ETA: Reps might exist, but voting data shows over 90% of registered voters in my ward are dems and the indys have most of the rest.

 

[MaggieB]

United States Homeless Statistics

3.5 million people (1.35 million of which are children) will experience homelessness in a given year.

Children under the age of 18 account for 39% of the homeless population. 42% of these are under the age of 5.

43% of the homeless population are women; 40% of these women are unaccompanied. 22% of homeless women claim domestic abuse as reason for homelessness. 25% of these claim to have been abused within the past year.

Families with children comprise 33% of the homeless population.

Vets constitute 40% of the homeless population.

1 in every 5 homeless persons has a severe or persistent mental illness.

25% of the homeless nationwide are employed.

 

[sklingem]

STrmrdr -
The only thing that I do not agree with is that you can generalize from you own experience (which may be correct) to a much larger scale. That is just clearly wrong. Second, MOST people who are unemployed or homeless are not in that situation by choice. That does not mean that some do not want to be unemployed or homeless. But economists would not make that theoretical (or empirical) differentiation. And that is also clearly wrong. And the above conclusions (especially the first one) are independently true of my own experiences - precisely because I can''t generalize from my own experiences to a larger scale either. Simple as that. And kudos to you for helping others in need!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 2:01:05 PM
Author: swimmer
Karl, just in my 21 min lunchbreak wanted to share that I and the teachers in my school and my friends all volunteer at least 10-15 hrs a week beyond our bleeding heart jobs. No Republicans in the bunch, either at the rehab hospital, the literacy center, or the health clinic. In fact, when thinking about it the only Republican I actually ever encounter is the crazy woman who screams ''baby killer'' accusingly to everyone who walks into the clinic (freaks out people there for TB tests). There are no medical procedures conducted in there, its a flu shot, mental health counseling kind of place, so I have to say I''m not sure what she is up to. No Republicans volunteer in my area because they just don''t exist in my blue collar union/university student hood.


So, based upon both of our entirely anecdotal evidence, and our locations in extremely polarized areas, Reps and Dems are split 50/50.


ETA: Reps might exist, but voting data shows over 90% of registered voters in my ward are dems and the indys have most of the rest.

I think my frustration with those that talk and do not help is coming out too strong in this thread.
I apologize to anyone that may have been insulted.

 

[Allisonfaye]

I just want to make a quick comment on all the welfare and food stamp comments. I think that many people assume that I think (since I first mentioned it) that no one deserves any of that stuff. I don''t think that. I was just commenting that I saw a lot of that kind of thing in my formative years, and I know a lot of people who don''t have much who say that they manage very well and wouldn''t want any public assistance. I do think this country has evolved to a lot of people who want something for nothing. But I am not saying to throw out the baby with the bath water and the programs should be scrapped.

And even though we make over $250k and therefor qualify as ''weathly'' (HA) , I believe that the middle class deserve some breaks. I believe the government totally screwed up when it comes to energy policy. We had a chance back in the 70''s to fix it. So now, people who can''t afford it have to pay huge amounts for gasoline and I think that is wrong. Now, I have less sympathy for the people who drive the big SUV gas guzzlers and I think those think should have never been allowed in the first place. I know in some European countries, they limit the number of cars a family can have and I think that is a great idea.

I do think the wealthy can foot a higher percentage of the tax burden. I am willing to do my part. But I don''t want to give money to people who don''t deserve it. I just don''t. But if we don''t fix Social Security and Medicare, it isn''t going to matter because we are ALL going to be paying higher taxes.

 

[Harriet]

No. i''m a proponent of progressivity in taxation because of the marginal utility of money. Under both income and consumption models, progressivity entails redistribution.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/30/2008 2:02:37 PM
Author: MaggieB
United States Homeless Statistics


3.5 million people (1.35 million of which are children) will experience homelessness in a given year.


Children under the age of 18 account for 39% of the homeless population. 42% of these are under the age of 5.


43% of the homeless population are women; 40% of these women are unaccompanied. 22% of homeless women claim domestic abuse as reason for homelessness. 25% of these claim to have been abused within the past year.


Families with children comprise 33% of the homeless population.


Vets constitute 40% of the homeless population.


1 in every 5 homeless persons has a severe or persistent mental illness.


25% of the homeless nationwide are employed.

Among the chronically homeless its more like 70% but that data is more than likely from the hud reports which are total garbage.
The software tracking programs that hud made them use is totally worthless and wasted billions of dollars that could have been better used to actually help people.

 

[Dancing Fire]

and...don''t get me started on the amount of taxpayers dollars we spent on illegal aliens and their kids.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 10/30/2008 1:53:17 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/30/2008 1:34:30 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/30/2008 8:09:34 AM

Author: Maria D

Date: 10/29/2008 11:37:58 PM


Author: Miranda

Date: 10/29/2008 10:59:12 PM

Oh yes we can! The difference is CHOICE. Some people CHOOSE to be plumbers, teachers, nurses or do nothing at all. It is a choice.

According to some economists, being unemployed is also a choice ... !!! That idea of free choice is such an oversimplification of reality, if not a blatant distortion of it. Hey, you are poor! Your choice!! Your bad! Your problem! Guess it makes a lot of people feel better about themselves believing such crap.

For some people unemployment is a choice and for some people being homeless is a choice.
Go help out at your local homeless shelter it will open your eyes.
Then come back and we will chat....

To clarify, Rob - When quoting Maria (if you read her post) you would see that I was referring to the type of employment and level of education people seek out. Oversimplication? Probably! Haha - in the midst of what was going to be a longer post my daughter fell and grew an enormously fat lip.

Of course I do not believe unemployment is a choice. For most people. As Karl stated, it is for some. Sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes people make bad choices. My point is that we all make choices regarding the career path we will choose. Some people get a great deal of personal satisfaction from teaching and summers off sweeten the deal. For them, the trade off is less income. For someone at the executive level the stress level will be much higher and the time off is much, MUCH less.

And I have to agree with what Karl said in an earlier post. The majority of volunteers (or donors of resources) I see are not of the liberal mindset. They are conservatives and I do not live in an area that is overly conservative. An easy way to contrast this is to compare the donations to charities from Obama and McCain. Now look at Biden and Palin. See for yourself who is more generous. For goodness sake, my KIDS donated more than Biden!

I have probably oversimplified again. Since I have chosen to sacrifice a career, I have lunch to make. And the little girl with said fat lip is growing cross!

 

[sklingem]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:09:01 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
and...don''t get me started on the amount of taxpayers dollars we spent on illegal aliens and their kids.

Yeah - pry 0.000001% of the taxpayer dollars we have spent on Iraq. But I digress. Let''s all win by kicking those kids out of the country. But please don''t send them back by plane. With those ticket prices nowadays that would really be criminal. And make sure they get at least a few scars from that border fence.

 

[sklingem]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:09:33 PM
My point is that we all make choices regarding the career path we will choose. Some people get a great deal of personal satisfaction from teaching and summers off sweeten the deal. For them, the trade off is less income. For someone at the executive level the stress level will be much higher and the time off is much, MUCH less.

And I have to agree with what Karl said in an earlier post. The majority of volunteers (or donors of resources) I see are not of the liberal mindset. They are conservatives and I do not live in an area that is overly conservative. An easy way to contrast this is to compare the donations to charities from Obama and McCain. Now look at Biden and Palin. See for yourself who is more generous. For goodness sake, my KIDS donated more than Biden!

Sorry to disagree here again!

A lot of people do not get to "choose" their educational path. Your educational "choice" depends on a lot of different factors, especially parental education and socio-economic status. So the argument that the career you are in or the educational credentials you have a purely a result of free choice at a specific time in your life is not entirely correct.

In terms of volunteering/donating, adding another personal experience and the example of four additional people does not allow you to make a general statement about the country in general and the difference between all conservatives and liberals. Give me a nationally representative sample of donors/volunteers and then we can make the type of claims that you are resorting to. If, based on such data, conservative indeed volunteer/give more, than it is totally fine by me. Although as someone pointed out, you would probably also have to look at the amoung relative to your income or the time spent volunteering relative to the time you have at your disposal (i.e. when you do not have to work etc.)

Cheers,
Rob

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:52:13 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/30/2008 3:09:33 PM

My point is that we all make choices regarding the career path we will choose. Some people get a great deal of personal satisfaction from teaching and summers off sweeten the deal. For them, the trade off is less income. For someone at the executive level the stress level will be much higher and the time off is much, MUCH less.


And I have to agree with what Karl said in an earlier post. The majority of volunteers (or donors of resources) I see are not of the liberal mindset. They are conservatives and I do not live in an area that is overly conservative. An easy way to contrast this is to compare the donations to charities from Obama and McCain. Now look at Biden and Palin. See for yourself who is more generous. For goodness sake, my KIDS donated more than Biden!

Sorry to disagree here again!


A lot of people do not get to ''choose'' their educational path. Your educational ''choice'' depends on a lot of different factors, especially parental education and socio-economic status. So the argument that the career you are in or the educational credentials you have a purely a result of free choice at a specific time in your life is not entirely correct.


In terms of volunteering/donating, adding another personal experience and the example of four additional people does not allow you to make a general statement about the country in general and the difference between all conservatives and liberals. Give me a nationally representative sample of donors/volunteers and then we can make the type of claims that you are resorting to. If, based on such data, conservative indeed volunteer/give more, than it is totally fine by me. Although as someone pointed out, you would probably also have to look at the amoung relative to your income or the time spent volunteering relative to the time you have at your disposal (i.e. when you do not have to work etc.)


Cheers,

Rob

I could go on for hours about how "equal" this country really is.

I don''t know if we have an ATW MVP award, but today it goes to Rob, IMO. I have loved everything you''ve said here today.


Thanks!

 

[E B]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:52:13 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/30/2008 3:09:33 PM

My point is that we all make choices regarding the career path we will choose. Some people get a great deal of personal satisfaction from teaching and summers off sweeten the deal. For them, the trade off is less income. For someone at the executive level the stress level will be much higher and the time off is much, MUCH less.

And I have to agree with what Karl said in an earlier post. The majority of volunteers (or donors of resources) I see are not of the liberal mindset. They are conservatives and I do not live in an area that is overly conservative. An easy way to contrast this is to compare the donations to charities from Obama and McCain. Now look at Biden and Palin. See for yourself who is more generous. For goodness sake, my KIDS donated more than Biden!

Sorry to disagree here again!

A lot of people do not get to ''choose'' their educational path. Your educational ''choice'' depends on a lot of different factors, especially parental education and socio-economic status. So the argument that the career you are in or the educational credentials you have a purely a result of free choice at a specific time in your life is not entirely correct.

In terms of volunteering/donating, adding another personal experience and the example of four additional people does not allow you to make a general statement about the country in general and the difference between all conservatives and liberals. Give me a nationally representative sample of donors/volunteers and then we can make the type of claims that you are resorting to. If, based on such data, conservative indeed volunteer/give more, than it is totally fine by me. Although as someone pointed out, you would probably also have to look at the amoung relative to your income or the time spent volunteering relative to the time you have at your disposal (i.e. when you do not have to work etc.)

Cheers,

Rob

More applause from me, Rob. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:52:13 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/30/2008 3:09:33 PM
My point is that we all make choices regarding the career path we will choose. Some people get a great deal of personal satisfaction from teaching and summers off sweeten the deal. For them, the trade off is less income. For someone at the executive level the stress level will be much higher and the time off is much, MUCH less.

And I have to agree with what Karl said in an earlier post. The majority of volunteers (or donors of resources) I see are not of the liberal mindset. They are conservatives and I do not live in an area that is overly conservative. An easy way to contrast this is to compare the donations to charities from Obama and McCain. Now look at Biden and Palin. See for yourself who is more generous. For goodness sake, my KIDS donated more than Biden!

Sorry to disagree here again!

A lot of people do not get to ''choose'' their educational path. Your educational ''choice'' depends on a lot of different factors, especially parental education and socio-economic status. So the argument that the career you are in or the educational credentials you have a purely a result of free choice at a specific time in your life is not entirely correct.

In terms of volunteering/donating, adding another personal experience and the example of four additional people does not allow you to make a general statement about the country in general and the difference between all conservatives and liberals. Give me a nationally representative sample of donors/volunteers and then we can make the type of claims that you are resorting to. If, based on such data, conservative indeed volunteer/give more, than it is totally fine by me. Although as someone pointed out, you would probably also have to look at the amoung relative to your income or the time spent volunteering relative to the time you have at your disposal (i.e. when you do not have to work etc.)

Cheers,
Rob

We''ll have to agree to disagree. I''ve seen too many people rise up against great adversity and make something of themselves. Though I will agree that some people have more challenges in their way. Absolutley! The choice is to overcome those challenges...Or not. My life is a walking, talking example of that.

I was only offering my observation of donations and charities as an example. We agree that is a general statement. Did you check the donation numbers between Obama and McCain and Biden and Palin? Just curious?

This is even more off topic, but, I am constantly amazed that people living in the same country have such different opinions about things. Ah well, I guess that''s what brings ''balance to the force''.

 

[sklingem]

You really make me blush ... I want to thank my liberal parents, my gf who has never set a foot on Pricescope and VW for creating my virtual ugly baby from hell. LOL
Cheers to everyone!!!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:52:13 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/30/2008 3:09:33 PM
My point is that we all make choices regarding the career path we will choose. Some people get a great deal of personal satisfaction from teaching and summers off sweeten the deal. For them, the trade off is less income. For someone at the executive level the stress level will be much higher and the time off is much, MUCH less.

And I have to agree with what Karl said in an earlier post. The majority of volunteers (or donors of resources) I see are not of the liberal mindset. They are conservatives and I do not live in an area that is overly conservative. An easy way to contrast this is to compare the donations to charities from Obama and McCain. Now look at Biden and Palin. See for yourself who is more generous. For goodness sake, my KIDS donated more than Biden!

Sorry to disagree here again!

A lot of people do not get to ''choose'' their educational path. Your educational ''choice'' depends on a lot of different factors, especially parental education and socio-economic status. So the argument that the career you are in or the educational credentials you have a purely a result of free choice at a specific time in your life is not entirely correct.

In terms of volunteering/donating, adding another personal experience and the example of four additional people does not allow you to make a general statement about the country in general and the difference between all conservatives and liberals. Give me a nationally representative sample of donors/volunteers and then we can make the type of claims that you are resorting to. If, based on such data, conservative indeed volunteer/give more, than it is totally fine by me. Although as someone pointed out, you would probably also have to look at the amoung relative to your income or the time spent volunteering relative to the time you have at your disposal (i.e. when you do not have to work etc.)

Cheers,
Rob

I heart Rob.

 

[zhuzhu]

Rob gets my

for pointing out the power lacking in some people''s application to make inferences for the whole population. Of course we are all free to express our opinions based on our own experiences, but to generalize the opposing political party or certain social economic status based on a small number of cases is simply statistically wrong, and morally wrong.

 

[MaggieB]

Date: 10/30/2008 4:11:26 PM
Author: rob09
You really make me blush ... I want to thank my liberal parents, my gf who has never set a foot on Pricescope and VW for creating my virtual ugly baby from hell. LOL
Cheers to everyone!!!

I second or third or fourth your nomination.

To another poster, I too have seen many people come up from adversity. My best friend in high school had no father, didn''t even know his name, was molested by two of her mother''s boyfriends, scholarshipped and worked her way through school, and ultimately got her PhD from UF and now does extremely well for herself. Well, financially at least. But for every one of her, I know about ten more girls from high school just like her that didn''t do so well.

My fiance, on the other hand, graduated from one of the most expensive colleges in the United States. He has about thirty fraternity brothers that coasted their way through school, graduated with C averages, and all got very nice cushy jobs in their fathers'' companies or with their fathers'' connections. Doesn''t make them bad people - actually most are pretty darned nice guys! But they hardly "chose" their circumstances and worked their way to the top. They got dealt a very lucky hand in life.

Which reminds me of Paul Newman . . . hmmmm, off to the quote thread to put my beloved Paul in there.

 

[sklingem]

te:[/b] 10/30/2008 4:11:08 PM
Author: Miranda

Rob

We''ll have to agree to disagree. I''ve seen too many people rise up against great adversity and make something of themselves. Though I will agree that some people have more challenges in their way. Absolutley! The choice is to overcome those challenges...Or not. My life is a walking, talking example of that.
I was only offering my observation of donations and charities as an example. We agree that is a general statement. Did you check the donation numbers between Obama and McCain and Biden and Palin? Just curious?

[/quote]

Miranda -
I don''t disagree with your examples. They are snapshots of individual people - but they may (in the case of donors/volunteers) or may not (we KNOW that, on AVERAGE, people do NOT "overcome" differences in parental/SES backgrounds when it comes to educational attainment) be representative of the population at large.
For volunteering and donations there is no basis to disagree/agree - we just don''t know. For educational attainment, job type/occupation, we KNOW that, on average, there are systematic differences for people from different socio-economic and familial backgrounds, among other things.

 

[zhuzhu]

A lot of conversations have taken place this morning. I think this is good to have such dialogue as no improvement on any issue can be made without hearing all sides view. I would like to address the easiest one first....

NEL, Thank you for liking my ring!

You fellow MAer, my DH, sure has good taste.

I also think you look beautiful in your avatar picture, and admire that handsome pet dog. Was he/she your "ring bear"? I am actually very interested in hearing your view point on the global warming crisis, so if you feel like it please start a new thread on that.

The conversations on this thread are rather messy because we are talking about 5 different issues all at the same time. The 5 distinct questions we have been hearing/debating can be categorized as:

(1) Will this country be better off being taxed on Rep''s plan, or Dem''s plan?
(2) What is the optimum size of the government? How much of the society''s movement and growth should be regulated by the government?
(3) Is there really a difference in volunteering and donation behavior, if you divide up the population into 2 groups: Dem vs Rep?
(4) Which presidential candidate, has the better vision and competency, to make the best policies and to make the best utilization of our tax money?
(5) Should education and health care be a "given right" to Americans? (we seem to already agree on military and infrastructure)

 

[Miranda]

Oy, this is rather off topic so I''ll offer only one more point. I have not ever suggested we are all on level playing field. My point is and has always been that the ''choice'' is what you choose to do with the set of circumstances you are dealt. Are you gonna rise up out of it or stay in the same situation?

I wish I had more time to play with you guys, but, alas, real life awaits!

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 10/30/2008 4:11:08 PM
Author: Miranda

We''ll have to agree to disagree. I''ve seen too many people rise up against great adversity and make something of themselves. Though I will agree that some people have more challenges in their way. Absolutley! The choice is to overcome those challenges...Or not. My life is a walking, talking example of that.

I was only offering my observation of donations and charities as an example. We agree that is a general statement. Did you check the donation numbers between Obama and McCain and Biden and Palin? Just curious?

This is even more off topic, but, I am constantly amazed that people living in the same country have such different opinions about things. Ah well, I guess that''s what brings ''balance to the force''.

Miranda, my life is walking, talking example of that as well. My mom was 19 when she had me, my dad was 17. Neither graduated from high school. Dad spread his "wealth" around and I ended up with a brother 6 months younger than me, and later two sisters. My mom worked several jobs, accepted welfare for a while, but it was tough. Most of my best friends growing up had several siblings by multiple fathers. This was the norm. My brother''s mother was an alcoholic who brought home men all the time...some of which abused him. If I had accepted that I was just dealt the wrong deck of cards I can guarantee you I would have at least one child right now and I''d be living in subsidized housing, perhaps an alcoholic like my father. I know this because this is how most of my childhood friends have ended up. what''s funny is that some of my friends from more stable backgrounds have ended up the same way. If my brother had followed his path in life he may have ended up just like my father, or just like one of the men his mom brought home. But, he''s working on his master''s, has a beautiful wife, and a great job. We had to make a choice, and that choice was to further our education and prove ourselves. We joke all the time about how we should have ended up. He''s very liberal, btw, but he''s of the mentality that if he can do it, anyone can.
Then on the other side of the spectrum you have my ex, who was born to two highly educated individuals (One of which is a professor at a University and the other who does research for BP), raised in the best neighborhood and went to the best schools. He just turned 30. He has two kids from two different women (left them both after they got pregnant), and now he sells drugs to make money. He''s moved from TX to Reno, to Maine for the last four years, living off of people. He did two years in prison and only has a GED. He could have had anything. His sister is married and doing well.
Then there is my cousin David who spent half of his childhood in Juvenile hall almost all of his adult life in prison for petty, stupid crime. Every time he gets out he''s back in within a month. We''re convinced he does it on purpose at this point because "real" life scares him and prison life is normal to him. He''s in a halfway house in Florida right now. I hope this is the last time. His sister, my cousin, is married with two beautiful boys. We got married together in Jamaica. So, my point is I absolutely think that the majority of people have a choice to accept what life hands them at birth. Obama himself had to make choices to get to where he is today. We all make choices. Sometimes we choose things that benefit us, and sometimes we choose things that hurt us. But we do have a choice.