Is Family Estrangement Becoming More Common?

[Karl_K]

I think the always connected by the internet leads to a lot of issues. No long ago you might call once a week or month at most and maybe a letter once in a while.
Now many expect to spend time daily and the lack of separation and demands for time leads to conflict.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

It does surprise me when someone can’t tell that THEY are actually the commons denominator in these breakdowns and fall outs. I mean how likely is it that everyone else is the problem and not ever them? Total lack of self awareness. Definitely sounds like it’s your BIL who is the issue here and certainly NOT you.

Actually it comes right back to what has been said in this tread
lack of tolerance in today's world
its sad to think that the world has become so self centered and selfish - but as this website consistantly proves the world is still full of wonderful people

perhaps it's just the 'socially dissruptive' family memebers are more vocal or vissable with soical media now days and they were always there but just eaiser to ignore

 

[MrsBlue]

Actually it comes right back to what has been said in this tread
lack of tolerance in today's world
its sad to think that the world has become so self centered and selfish - but as this website consistantly proves the world is still full of wonderful people

perhaps it's just the 'socially dissruptive' family memebers are more vocal or vissable with soical media now days and they were always there but just eaiser to ignore

For sure, mean people are always louder and get more attention.

I can't imagine what kind of person could overlook your kindness. He sounds like the grinch.

It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.

 

[partgypsy]

This reminds me of an article I once read analyzing the different between a forum for estranged parents and one for estranged children.

The Missing Missing Reasons | Issendai.com

Members of estranged parents' forums often say their children never gave them any reason for the estrangement, then turn around and reveal that their children did tell them why. But the reasons their children give—the infamous missing reasons—are missing. This article examines the phenomenon and...

www.issendai.com

I honestly found it fascinating.

This! I am not estranged with my parents, I have had heart to heart with one or another of parents about it, and it boils down to, a lack of respect or consideration, due to someone (the child) saying this is a problem, but the other (parent) doesn't think it's a problem so it "doesn't count" or should be overlooked. When I was growing up my older brother was a problem child. To the point there were times I didn't feel safe and secure in my house bc of his behavior. But my mother was constantly defending him, protecting him, excusing his behavior. Even to the extent one time he physically assaulted my sister, paying his legal fees and giving my sister the cold shoulder for not dropping charges. My mom feels she did nothing wrong. So yeah. Sometimes being complicit in other people's bad behavior, is bad enough. As far as Harry et al I'm sure he has his reasons. It doesn't really matter if you or anyone doesn't think they are "good enough" reasons.

 

[doberman]

What I say here won't be popular. But we seem to have raised a crop of people who believe that their feelings trump everything else. If they're upset, it's because someone else has done something wrong. And all the pop psychology terms people throw around...people have learned to enjoy thinking of themselves as victims. It's a great way to avoid the hard work of looking at your own behavior, and it is often a manifestation of inherent selfishness/self-centeredness.

 

[missy]

Nothing as strong as estrangement. Though with one family member (my SIL) I guess you could call it that. But this is a long story so feel free to skip.

When Greg and I first started dating and then became engaged his family was less than warm towards me. One I am Jewish and his mom was very religious catholic. She was active in the church and played avery important role in the Church. It was a big part of her life. And secondly, I am from NYC and typical in being Seinfeld like lol. So I was foreign to her. In almost every way. And she was less than nice to me. I am not exaggerating. She would lash out at me.

Greg wouldn't tolerate that (nor would I but I let him take the reigns with this as it was his family) and told his family in no uncertain terms treat me (his girlfriend at the time) well as I am a part of his life now or we would no longer be a part of their lives. From that day on his mom was much better (she was not a warm person to begin with but she treated me more respectfully) and over time she grew to have affection for me at the very least and maybe she even loved me. I grew fonder of her too.

His mom was a tough cookie but with the years we became closer. I miss her. As for his two brothers and one sister in law we are friendly enough but we rarely see them. They live across the country. However with the other SIL there is no love lost. I guess perhaps we could call ourselves estranged. But Greg and I see both brothers and Greg talks to them on a regular basis so all is well there. Now. There were a few years where the middle brother and Greg didnt talk due to the bothers wife (the "mean girl" SIL). But luckily the middle brother and Greg are close once again but sadly for his brother he and his wife are basically living separate lives. They never had a good marriage and in fact that was the big issue she had with me. She was jealous of my relationship with Greg. She was in love with him herself. Yup not kidding. It's a soap opera lol but has a happy ending (for Greg and me at least).

Anyway that is my long complicated story and as crazy as it seemed to me at the time, and as crazy stressful as it was at that time too, I do not regret one moment of any of it. Because Greg is worth it. I would go through all that and more. I truly would. I mean I didnt share half of it. The crazy letter his SIL wrote him before we got married. The stuff she tried to do to sabotage us. It was cuckoo. But through it all Greg stood up for me and wouldn't let them disparage me and was by my side the whole time.

Fortunately my family loves Greg as he does them and they accepted him immediately. My parents always said all that matters is that I love him and he loves me and treats me well. But it's more than that. They love him like a son and he loves them like his mom and dad. It's a beautiful thing to see. My parents are the best people and Greg is the best husband. I do not know how I got so lucky but I am grateful every single day that I am sharing my life with the love of my life. My B'shert.

"When I say I love you more, I don’t mean I love you more than you love me. I mean I love you more than the bad days ahead of us, I love you more than any fight we will ever have. I love you more than the distance between us, I love you more than any obstacle that could try and come between us. I love you the most.”

“I choose you. And I’ll choose you over and over and over. Without pause, without a doubt, in a heartbeat. I’ll keep choosing you.”

Just to add, I did not own a computer at that time nor was I on the internet nor did I have a mobile phone. So that played zero role in my experience.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I’ve attached this image because (and I can’t speak for everyone else) growing up, this was my experience and in many ways it was worse than that.

I realized in my family, going back to my parents and their parents, that “normal” meant “If you have a problem, suck it up. Quit crying about it. Be a man/woman, toughen up. Other people have it worse than you. No one cares about your feelings.” The theme was very much YOU DON’T MATTER. I don’t know why this is a nostalgic thing people remember so fondly, I certainly don’t.

Now to some extent, this philosophy is true. I have a great boss but he’s not necessarily going to care if my personal life is a mess or whatever. I’ve had to jump through hoops to manage divorce, sick kids, treatment for depression, and still make it to work and be a reliable employee because at the end of the day I’m getting paid to do my job. I do think a dose of perspective is healthy, if you find yourself wallowing in self pity. These feelings can be healthy and good. There’s a lot to be said for not letting life swallow you alive.

On the other end of the spectrum, it can be really disorienting and scary when you become an adult who has never learned how to process feelings, because eventually your body does play some catch up. You might get depressed, you might drink, you might not be the kind of parent you wanted to be. And I think a lot of people my age who are having their own children have realized, I want better for my kids! I don’t want to keep them at a distance or ridicule them for being upset. I don’t want their childhood to be something they “survive” or “just get through.”

And so I think it does cause a re examining of family relationships. Now, I’m not going to sit there and rehash every little thing that happened when I was 8 years old. My childhood is over and I am the adult now. But if, within my parent/child dynamic one of my parents is still perpetuating cycles that are harmful to me, it is well within my rights and ANYONE’S rights to say “You know what? This didn’t help me as a kid, and it doesn’t help me now. I need us to be able to communicate without yelling/guilt trips/manipulation/constant criticism.”

Some might think that is selfish and unreasonable, that’s their right. But they can’t be surprised if that attitude of refusing to acknowledge others and change doesn’t result in the close tight knit family they want in their golden years.

 

[Jambalaya]

It doesn't really matter if you or anyone doesn't think they are "good enough" reasons.

Yes, I'm well aware that it doesn't matter in any material sense what I think of Harry's estrangement. I was expressing my thoughts and feelings about it.

 

[Jambalaya]

I’ve attached this image because (and I can’t speak for everyone else) growing up, this was my experience and in many ways it was worse than that.

I realized in my family, going back to my parents and their parents, that “normal” meant “If you have a problem, suck it up. Quit crying about it. Be a man/woman, toughen up. Other people have it worse than you. No one cares about your feelings.” The theme was very much YOU DON’T MATTER. I don’t know why this is a nostalgic thing people remember so fondly, I certainly don’t.

Now to some extent, this philosophy is true. I have a great boss but he’s not necessarily going to care if my personal life is a mess or whatever. I’ve had to jump through hoops to manage divorce, sick kids, treatment for depression, and still make it to work and be a reliable employee because at the end of the day I’m getting paid to do my job. I do think a dose of perspective is healthy, if you find yourself wallowing in self pity. These feelings can be healthy and good. There’s a lot to be said for not letting life swallow you alive.

On the other end of the spectrum, it can be really disorienting and scary when you become an adult who has never learned how to process feelings, because eventually your body does play some catch up. You might get depressed, you might drink, you might not be the kind of parent you wanted to be. And I think a lot of people my age who are having their own children have realized, I want better for my kids! I don’t want to keep them at a distance or ridicule them for being upset. I don’t want their childhood to be something they “survive” or “just get through.”

And so I think it does cause a re examining of family relationships. Now, I’m not going to sit there and rehash every little thing that happened when I was 8 years old. My childhood is over and I am the adult now. But if, within my parent/child dynamic one of my parents is still perpetuating cycles that are harmful to me, it is well within my rights and ANYONE’S rights to say “You know what? This didn’t help me as a kid, and it doesn’t help me now. I need us to be able to communicate without yelling/guilt trips/manipulation/constant criticism.”

Some might think that is selfish and unreasonable, that’s their right. But they can’t be surprised if that attitude of refusing to acknowledge others and change doesn’t result in the close tight knit family they want in their golden years.

Ohhh, everything you say here is so true. In the Seventies and Eighties, people were MUCH less nice to children than they are now. I remember the teachers at my elementary school - they just seemed to hate children and sneered at us all the time. My dancing teacher was a sarcastic so-and-so, to CHILDREN, who don't understand, and I remember we had one piano teacher who used to send us home crying. Then there was the parental attitude which is so neatly summed up by the image you posted. My mom was not like that, thank goodness, but my dad was and lots of other parents I knew.

Sadly, my memory is that the younger I was, the worse it was. Under about age 12 it was dreadful, and then got progressively better. Which means that the smaller you were back then, the more you got bullied. Ugh.

Sometimes I think we've swung too far the other way and too often treat children like mini deities, but far better that than the way it was decades ago. I don't even want to think about what life was like for children in the Victorian and Edwardian eras.

 

[Jambalaya]

@missy I love every time you tell that story about your SIL! It's just so comical, that she's mean and grumpy to you because she just lurrrves Greg! Silly woman. Talk about barking up the wrong tree! You have to feel sorry for her, really. And HUGE KUDOS to Greg for sticking up for you with his mother, because more often, men will not stick up for their wives when it comes to their mothers.

ETA: You speak so highly of Greg that just fyi, if any of his brothers end up getting divorced, I'll be over here in the corner with my tongue hanging out and my phone number on a sign round my neck!

 

[Jambalaya]

What I say here won't be popular. But we seem to have raised a crop of people who believe that their feelings trump everything else. If they're upset, it's because someone else has done something wrong. And all the pop psychology terms people throw around...people have learned to enjoy thinking of themselves as victims. It's a great way to avoid the hard work of looking at your own behavior, and it is often a manifestation of inherent selfishness/self-centeredness.

Totally agree with this, especially the bolded and particularly the underlined. The people in my family who initiated the estrangements have long, long histories of displaying selfish behaviors well outside the context of said estrangements. I know that many estrangements are needed and that many people who initiate an estrangement had no other reasonable choice, and that they had to do it for the sake of their own mental health. But in my observation, there are also many estrangements that are, as you say, a manifestation of inherent character flaws. The latter type strikes a particular chord with me because it's what I've witnessed close to home.

 

[Jambalaya]

For sure, mean people are always louder and get more attention.

I can't imagine what kind of person could overlook your kindness. He sounds like the grinch.

It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.

Oh, I love this! I haven't seen that before. So apt!

 

[Jambalaya]

Actually it comes right back to what has been said in this tread
lack of tolerance in today's world
its sad to think that the world has become so self centered and selfish - but as this website consistantly proves the world is still full of wonderful people

perhaps it's just the 'socially dissruptive' family memebers are more vocal or vissable with soical media now days and they were always there but just eaiser to ignore

Yup, yup, yup. Totally agree. And in the old days, there were fewer ways to ignore people - only by mail and later by phone. These days, if someone is not reaching out to you it's super-obvious because they're also ignoring you by text, email, Whatsapp, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram....the list goes on. It's so easy to find people these days that NOT reaching out has more meaning than previously, I feel. In the old days, if you weren't in the phone book, that was it. You couldn't find people. Now, most people can be found with minimal effort, so not bothering perhaps says more than it used to, when you'd stop calling or stop sending a Christmas card.

 

[Jambalaya]

I think some of the strain in our relationship comes from the fact that we are confident and sure-footed in our parenting and our marriage and we don't seek their approval for our decisions.

In other words, they're parents who can't let go.

Isn't having adult children who operate confidently in their own lives the goal??

I also had parents who couldn't let go, and it's MADDENINGLY infantilizing. Even though they probably don't mean the following, this is what it communicates: "You are too unintelligent and too dumb to make any decision without me, and besides, I REALLY like maintaining control over you."

For someone who is a perfectly competent adult, this sort of attitude from a parent is beyond frustrating, and actually really insulting.

My mother would not, could not, absolutely REFUSED to accept that I did not want children. She wanted me to have them at any cost, including the cost to the child of being unwanted. It was uncharacteristically selfish of her, and I really think she went a little crazy. I have never experienced such a deep lack of respect before or since, and I hope to never experience such a complete and utter disrespect of who I am ever again. The only thing that stopped her is when she got diagnosed with terminal cancer. I really think that she thought she could nag me into having children that I absolutely did not want. She became really rabid about grandchildren after one of my siblings gave her the first one. It was like the floodgates opened and suddenly nothing mattered except having grandchildren. Of course nothing changed my mind; the only effect it had was to leave a big black mark on our final years together. Very sad. (We weren't estranged but the whole issue used to make my blood boil, and I was on the verge of having another boundaries talk with her and preparing myself to create distance if she wouldn't listen, when she got diagnosed and it all stopped.)

 

[TooPatient]

What I say here won't be popular. But we seem to have raised a crop of people who believe that their feelings trump everything else. If they're upset, it's because someone else has done something wrong. And all the pop psychology terms people throw around...people have learned to enjoy thinking of themselves as victims. It's a great way to avoid the hard work of looking at your own behavior, and it is often a manifestation of inherent selfishness/self-centeredness.

I think you definitely have a point! A few people in my family I only really see because of keeping in touch with my grandmother (and they live with her). I'm pretty sure we will drift apart after she is gone because they see themselves as victims of everything in the world and use it as an excuse to be nasty to people. It gets hard to put up with and makes me wonder how many estrangements come from similar situations where it isn't so much any particular one thing someone did so much as exasperation over the constant drain on energy since they always have something that has to be fixed and it is all someone else's fault and you owe it to them to fix it.

 

[Cinders]

Yes, I'm well aware that it doesn't matter in any material sense what I think of Harry's estrangement. I was expressing my thoughts and feelings about it.

If you follow along the timeline of H&M's relationship through today you will find that they are estranged from essentially everyone they once knew.

Edited to add: Which is not particularly healthy.

 

[Jambalaya]

If you follow along the timeline of H&M's relationship through today you will find that they are estranged from essentially everyone they once knew.

Edited to add: Which is not particularly healthy.

My judgement about Harry and Meghan is that they're just plain awful. Remember how they refused to postpone the Oprah interview when Harry's grandfather lay dying in the hospital? Remember how Harry didn't visit him but was able to go to the funeral? After which, Harry wouldn't even stay one more day to celebrate the Queen's birthday. And Harry is releasing his tell-all book despite his grandmother's age and frailty. Well, maybe the book will reveal awful wrong-doings that will make sense of the way he has treated his family and kept his children away from all their relatives on both sides, but somehow I doubt it.

Luxury upon luxury was rained down on them, including the prestige and status of a dukedom and HRH titles, plus mansions, designer clothes, jewelry, a stunning wedding, and yet they act as if they're the most hard-done-by people in the world. I suspect Meghan just wanted to get home and had to blame Britain and the RF in order to get there, instead of just admitting that she had made a mistake by marrying so quickly into the RF.

Harry is ridiculously angry at the position, life, and family which has given him everything. Diana had serious challenges with her mental health which first appeared in childhood, and I think Harry is living with something similar. His view on his life appears to be completely distorted. Is it possible that there are things about his life that we don't know about and which are SO TERRIBLE that they justify he and Meghan falling out with the entirety of both their families except her mother, and flouncing out of Britain and all the cakes and balloons that had been rained down on them? Yes, it's possible. But it's not likely.

We will see what he has to say when his book comes out.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

my mum loved us ucondionally but with that love came a lot of conditions
i wrote that into the funneral - i wish i could take credit for it but i borrowed it from Bruce Springsteen
also her love was scoffiacting
i do belave she loved us equally but she liked my sister more,( and im not just saying that, other people could see it which i found embarssing)

i rememebr when i was 11 or 12 her tellling me her and dad didnt like me any more - (im thinking because i was learning to think for myself like is normal at that age)

within the family they say that mum and my grandma were exactly the same except i know mum was a better daughter as a grown up than i ever was because like i said i would i ran away and never really came home although we did xmas and birthdays by mail or tense silence filled phone calls =always her ringing me
i was so angry for the longest time, angry like a teenage boy
our dad got cancer and died after a good fight but my sister was still in high schoo, i was in an unhappy situation at workl
the glue that held our family together and my mother's handbreak died with him
it became them Vs me
even when my sister was in trouble it was my fault

moving to a different island was good for me
i mean living the land of my birth is still hard, i miss my home town still but i had to get away and start over
my sister got married and gave mum grandchildren so at least i was spaired that pressure
actually mum never presured me on that at all - sometimes she did understand me but we were both to angry to ever be the friends she baddly wanted

just before mum died -and belaive me nobody deserves to die from demetia- my mum was not a bad person, she was generouse and kind but she had her own issues with my very loving grandma and i alos belave she had some kind of mental undiongnized illness
she would say things to Gary or my sister she never said to me like she was sorry i never got to go university
anyway i often hear in my mind hearing my dad saying she wasnt a bad mum
and she wasnt but she had a terrible temper and said horrible things she may well not have ment but in my book you dont say things like that if you dont mean them
you dont take your bad day out on people you love (and yet that is a common human trait)
and she did latter realize her temper and lack of control was pushing people away

when my mother got demetia and forgot me first
me- the oldest child, it was a shock
i remmebr the nurse saying it is never going to get any better than today, each day will be more worse
and so it hurt the most when she forgot dad and his name - our last name
she started wearing my grandmother's ER because she couldnt remember her's,
mum was young, only in her mid to late 60's

anyway so mum was basically a vegatable long past having any mental capsasity, just exsisting, i couldnt work out for the longest time why she wouldnt just go and be with my dad, the love of each others lives, but now on reflection she was already with my dad and what was left was just the shell wasting away in the hospital bed
so Bruce Springtseen is touring again, celebrating the 30th anniversary of the River record -an album full of stories about people just like me
i would lie in bed late at night listneing to live streams from inside someones overcoat from a US arena (i did buy all the concerts but there is nothing like hearing it as its happening)
each night Bruce would play the album in full - its a double album
he always talks a lot
suddenly all the songs made sence, not just my deep cuts, but the filler and fluff became intergril to the narrative of this snapshot of life
i would lie in bed for houses lietning to what he had said in those spoken interludes, his own dear mom with demetia and his dad long gone too
So his most famouse song - his anthem is born to run - a story of esacxping ones hometown- one night before it he said maybe when he wrote it he didnt ralise it at the time but that that was not just his story, but the story of his mom and dad too

That hit me like a thunderbolt
until Bruce Springsteen told me it had never occoured to me my jurnury, my sruggles, my faers, failers and struggles on this road of life had actually been my parents long before i had come along
if those people in those songs were me, they were also my mum and dad too

of course as if often the case i came to this realization too late
but thats ok
thats just how life is

My judgement about Harry and Meghan is that they're just plain awful. Remember how they refused to postpone the Oprah interview when Harry's grandfather lay dying in the hospital? Remember how Harry didn't visit him but was able to go to the funeral? After which, Harry wouldn't even stay one more day to celebrate the Queen's birthday. And Harry is releasing his tell-all book despite his grandmother's age and frailty. Well, maybe the book will reveal awful wrong-doings that will make sense of the way he has treated his family and kept his children away from all their relatives on both sides, but somehow I doubt it.

Luxury upon luxury was rained down on them, including the prestige and status of a dukedom and HRH titles, plus mansions, designer clothes, jewelry, a stunning wedding, and yet they act as if they're the most hard-done-by people in the world. I suspect Meghan just wanted to get home and had to blame Britain and the RF in order to get there, instead of just admitting that she had made a mistake by marrying so quickly into the RF.

Harry is ridiculously angry at the position, life, and family which has given him everything. Diana had serious challenges with her mental health which first appeared in childhood, and I think Harry is living with something similar. His view on his life appears to be completely distorted. Is it possible that there are things about his life that we don't know about and which are SO TERRIBLE that they justify he and Meghan falling out with the entirety of both their families except her mother, and flouncing out of Britain and all the cakes and balloons that had been rained down on them? Yes, it's possible. But it's not likely.

We will see what he has to say when his book comes out.

.....ill probably not waste money on it (the book)
the whole Oprah thing really put a bad taste in my mouth

but i am hoping its not true she hated every second of the tour they did down here because\e they were so popular with everyone from all walks of life - remember right after his couisn's wedding where they announced Maghan was exspecting
I just think she did a serouse miscaulutaion, and still does not understand how monrachy works, i mean for us its just there in the background, the Queen is head of state for one's whole life, she is like rather glourouse wallpaper, always there, dependable, reliable , a constant in a world of great change, people often forget how important that one bit of continuality is
for one M does not understand the importance that the monarchy is politically nutural

I defeneded M &H for a while but i think all those realitives from both sides of Harry's family who were right when they asked him to slow down from what was genuine concern and love for Prince Harry
M just seems completly unsuited to the life as a British dutchess/ Princess by marrage, she did not do her research and Harry just cant have been paying attention to the finer points of the rules

I dont want to wish divorce on anyone, especially a little family but if this ends in tears i bet Kate will extend the olive branch to Harry pretty smartly

i just hope that the book isnt too mean to Cammila
yes there were 3 in that marrage but its not fare to be compaired to an imortal saint for the rest of one's life, we all make mistakes but we have to drawl a line in the sand and move on, If Diana had survived that crash, Im sure she would have moved on and made a new life,

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

dang i wasnt ready to post that first bit

 

[Jambalaya]

@Daisys and Diamonds I loved your long post, Daisy. The first part about your family life and dementia, and coming to realisations through music, is very moving.

And I agree about Meghan not understanding monarchy, and everything else you wrote, too.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

@Daisys and Diamonds I loved your long post, Daisy. The first part about your family life and dementia, and coming to realisations through music, is very moving.

And I agree about Meghan not understanding monarchy, and everything else you wrote, too.

thank you
i must apoligise to eevryoe
my soelling and trying isa lot worse thatn usual
see i think faster than i can type

but i need a new phone but my provider's physical pressnece is only open mon to friday
how do people get these jobs?
.
ive worked wekends my entire working life !!

i shell have to brave the bus on monday and go into town before work
here i was thinking i could just amble down after work at 2pm saturday

never mind im locked out of my email (yahoo) and have no idea how to get back in with my phone out

 

[Cinders]

If anyone is interested, there is a lot of very interesting information in the new Tom Bowers book about H&M. MM is very calculating.

 

[Jambalaya]

If anyone is interested, there is a lot of very interesting information in the new Tom Bowers book about H&M. MM is very calculating.

That is interesting indeed. I might get it from the library. I do also think it will be interesting to see what Harry has to say in his defense when his book comes out.

I know that some people blame Meghan for Harry's problems with his family, but I say that Harry is responsible for his own relationships, and that nobody could have made him reject his family if he didn't want to. I think he soaked up Diana's poison about the royals and has internalized her entire point of view. While Charles made a serious error of judgement in marrying Diana - at 32, he might have known that they had nothing in common - but he wasn't a philanderer. He has only ever loved Camilla. I also believe that they kept their distance romantically until his marriage became unbearable, about five years in. There are a couple of photos of Charles looking absolutely desperate and as if he might cry. He wrongly married Diana, but he paid a terrible price for it in terms of the stress he went through - they were both living with the challenges of her mental health. Look at his face on here:



I was married to someone with severe, untreated mental illness and the toll it takes is enormous. Charles's friends were worried about his mental state and that's why they re-introduced him and Camilla.

He championed the environment decades before it was fashionable, he talks to plants, likes therapy, is a one-woman man, and has done a great deal of good through The Prince's Trust and Poundbury. His one mistake was marrying someone with whom he was totally incompatible.

Apart from that, for all these reasons I don't think he's a bad old stick, villain though Diana made him out to be. I think she would have tested the patience of a saint. (Not her fault - she was living with mental illness. Check out the Bashir interview, where she is barely making sense for portions of it.) Apparently she was reluctant to try medication. I really would like to think that, if she had lived, she might have got some proper, long-term help and have tried some of the better meds that are available today, and ended up happier.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen, and now her unbalanced perspective on the royals and her life with them is being carried on by Harry. It will be interesting to see if his book has any information that might redeem his behavior. I'm willing to listen.

 

[bludiva]

But they can’t be surprised if that attitude of refusing to acknowledge others and change doesn’t result in the close tight knit family they want in their golden years.

This! I had a family member i haven't talked to in over a decade yell and curse at me over the phone because I don't want to be in contact with them. This person has a nasty side and I have long opted out from being around them. But they, years later, still feel entitled to some kind of ongoing relationship? You can't just demand love or closeness b/c you're related, you have to nurture those bonds over time.

 

[mn_shopaholic]

I’ve attached this image because (and I can’t speak for everyone else) growing up, this was my experience and in many ways it was worse than that.

I realized in my family, going back to my parents and their parents, that “normal” meant “If you have a problem, suck it up. Quit crying about it. Be a man/woman, toughen up. Other people have it worse than you. No one cares about your feelings.” The theme was very much YOU DON’T MATTER. I don’t know why this is a nostalgic thing people remember so fondly, I certainly don’t.

Now to some extent, this philosophy is true. I have a great boss but he’s not necessarily going to care if my personal life is a mess or whatever. I’ve had to jump through hoops to manage divorce, sick kids, treatment for depression, and still make it to work and be a reliable employee because at the end of the day I’m getting paid to do my job. I do think a dose of perspective is healthy, if you find yourself wallowing in self pity. These feelings can be healthy and good. There’s a lot to be said for not letting life swallow you alive.

On the other end of the spectrum, it can be really disorienting and scary when you become an adult who has never learned how to process feelings, because eventually your body does play some catch up. You might get depressed, you might drink, you might not be the kind of parent you wanted to be. And I think a lot of people my age who are having their own children have realized, I want better for my kids! I don’t want to keep them at a distance or ridicule them for being upset. I don’t want their childhood to be something they “survive” or “just get through.”

And so I think it does cause a re examining of family relationships. Now, I’m not going to sit there and rehash every little thing that happened when I was 8 years old. My childhood is over and I am the adult now. But if, within my parent/child dynamic one of my parents is still perpetuating cycles that are harmful to me, it is well within my rights and ANYONE’S rights to say “You know what? This didn’t help me as a kid, and it doesn’t help me now. I need us to be able to communicate without yelling/guilt trips/manipulation/constant criticism.”

Some might think that is selfish and unreasonable, that’s their right. But they can’t be surprised if that attitude of refusing to acknowledge others and change doesn’t result in the close tight knit family they want in their golden years.

THIS!! I don't have kids, but can relate to so much of this.

If I end up estranged from anyone in my family, it would be a certain parent (parents are divorced, so this only impacts one side), and it wouldn't be a decision that was made lightly.

When I was growing up, this parent went to work Monday to Friday. Saturday and Sunday, they indulged in their hobbies with minimal involvement in my activities (supposedly due to allergies and heaven forbid meds were tried) or helping with homework, etc. "Family" vacations were centered around their main hobby. My $0.02 is that this person got married and had kids because they were being a good Catholic and this is just what you did, rather than them having any deep-seated desire to be a part of a family, be actively involved in raising/growing that family and having to take other people into consideration along the way.

Someone else in the family is married to a therapist (Dr, licensed psychologist) and the therapist has commented how disinterested the parent in question is regarding their own family. So my issues with/observations of this parent aren't imaginary or specific to just me and my experience with them.

In my adult life, this parent has been critical/judgmental of most aspects of my life; I have the wrong job, the wrong SO, the wrong dog, live in the wrong neighborhood, not enough college/higher ed (never mind that I make more than other people in the family with master's degrees...) and I'm wrong to not have kids among other things. It is exhausting dealing with them and always feeling like I need to defend myself, despite the fact that I'm not the traditional black sheep as it were.

This parent went no contact on me (including not calling on my birthday) after I suggested family therapy so we can learn how to have more productive/respectful interactions; which was not my first time being ghosted by them due to an inability to have a real conversation after something they say is questioned (even when I have bona fide statistics or research to try and make my point). I said I wasn't comfortable returning to the status quo, which got me ignored for months and not invited to family functions.

I know I'm not perfect (currently re-starting therapy to try and work out some of my stuff) and I'm not expecting my feelings to trump anyone else's from their own POV; but if I'm selfish for going no contact with them in return because I'm treated as a disposable object by them and because they can't or won't acknowledge that my thoughts and feelings are valid FOR ME in my own life, then I'm proud to be selfish. I'll take being Little Miss Selfish any day of the week over being Little Miss Doormat to keep the "peace" that is only peaceful for the other party.

 

[partgypsy]

What I say here won't be popular. But we seem to have raised a crop of people who believe that their feelings trump everything else. If they're upset, it's because someone else has done something wrong. And all the pop psychology terms people throw around...people have learned to enjoy thinking of themselves as victims. It's a great way to avoid the hard work of looking at your own behavior, and it is often a manifestation of inherent selfishness/self-centeredness.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Could be true in some cases. But the "good old days" where ones parents were never to be questioned, and even things as bad as verbal, emotional, physical abuse were not to be talked about, is also not good. I do always hope there is basic respect and civil discourse between people. At the same time, even while blood is thicker than water, it's healthier for someone to walk away from dysfunctional relationship than stay. That there is awareness, you can leave that bad relationship, whether it's familiar or friendship or romantic, rather than continually putting yourself in the firing line, is a GOOD thing. I do feel though in general, people don't make as much as an effect to communicate, including practicing active listening, which makes these things more likely to happen

 

[partgypsy]

That is interesting indeed. I might get it from the library. I do also think it will be interesting to see what Harry has to say in his defense when his book comes out.

I know that some people blame Meghan for Harry's problems with his family, but I say that Harry is responsible for his own relationships, and that nobody could have made him reject his family if he didn't want to. I think he soaked up Diana's poison about the royals and has internalized her entire point of view. While Charles made a serious error of judgement in marrying Diana - at 32, he might have known that they had nothing in common - but he wasn't a philanderer. He has only ever loved Camilla. I also believe that they kept their distance romantically until his marriage became unbearable, about five years in. There are a couple of photos of Charles looking absolutely desperate and as if he might cry. He wrongly married Diana, but he paid a terrible price for it in terms of the stress he went through - they were both living with the challenges of her mental health. Look at his face on here:



I was married to someone with severe, untreated mental illness and the toll it takes is enormous. Charles's friends were worried about his mental state and that's why they re-introduced him and Camilla.

He championed the environment decades before it was fashionable, he talks to plants, likes therapy, is a one-woman man, and has done a great deal of good through The Prince's Trust and Poundbury. His one mistake was marrying someone with whom he was totally incompatible.

Apart from that, for all these reasons I don't think he's a bad old stick, villain though Diana made him out to be. I think she would have tested the patience of a saint. (Not her fault - she was living with mental illness. Check out the Bashir interview, where she is barely making sense for portions of it.) Apparently she was reluctant to try medication. I really would like to think that, if she had lived, she might have got some proper, long-term help and have tried some of the better meds that are available today, and ended up happier.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen, and now her unbalanced perspective on the royals and her life with them is being carried on by Harry. It will be interesting to see if his book has any information that might redeem his behavior. I'm willing to listen.

Unbalanced opinion on the royals? Excuse me, but you are referring to his family and his mother. No matter how much you think you "know" about the royal family, it's a curated, outsiders view. If you like gossiping about strangers, go ahead. But don't deceive yourself you have more insight or knowledge than the people actually involved.

 

[doberman]

I think that's a bit simplistic. Could be true in some cases. But the "good old days" where ones parents were never to be questioned, and even things as bad as verbal, emotional, physical abuse were not to be talked about, is also not good. I do always hope there is basic respect and civil discourse between people. At the same time, even while blood is thicker than water, it's healthier for someone to walk away from dysfunctional relationship than stay. That there is awareness, you can leave that bad relationship, whether it's familiar or friendship or romantic, rather than continually putting yourself in the firing line, is a GOOD thing. I do feel though in general, people don't make as much as an effect to communicate, including practicing active listening, which makes these things more likely to happen

We'll agree to disagree. And there are no "good old days" elements in my post unless you count the good old days when people you didn't get along with weren't labeled "toxic", "narcissistic" or "abusive" - you just didn't get along with them.

I dont know of any good old days when parents weren't questioned. I'm older than most here and I certainly questioned my parents.

 

[seaurchin]

This isn't in response to any particular post.

I dislike broad, sweeping judgements. Each estrangement has its own story, which no one outside it fully knows.

Also, I don't think it's been mentioned but imo there are degrees of estrangement, not just the 100% no-contact that gets all the attention.

For ex. if there are only "duty" calls/visits but with personal information not shared and emotional detachment, imo that's also estrangement. It's just keeping up a shell of an attachment to avoid drama and trauma or from financial considerations or whatever.

And then there's "having to" move away because of a significant other or job, that might have more to it as well.

When half of all marriages don't make it, expecting much more than that, over a longer timeline, with people you didn't choose and who didn't choose you, isn't all that realistic imo.

Past generations dealt with marital misery differently too. But that doesn't mean it didn't exist to the same extent or that their way was automatically better.

Maybe the whole idealistic Norman Rockwell expectation of family is more the problem than people leaving relationships they find destructive and unfixable.

 

[Jambalaya]

But don't deceive yourself you have more insight or knowledge than the people actually involved.

@partgypsy Right, hence why I said at the end: It will be interesting to see if his [Harry's] book has any information that might redeem his behavior. I'm willing to listen.

ETA: you said that mine is an outsider's view: I'm not sure if you know, but many members of the royal family have written books about themselves. They are either authorized biographies where they have collaborated closely with the author, or they are unauthorized biographies where a royal wanted to get their story out and had their "friends" and other sources act as a go-between. Diana: In Her Own Words was her story recorded by her on tape. You can see some of the tapes on YouTube. Then there was her Panorama interview. Lots of info. straight from the horses' mouths!

And yes, I do think Diana's view was unbalanced, thanks to her getting her view out there in her own words. She never admitted to a single mistake on her part and she didn't have a single good word to say about the RF even though she got 17 million pounds in her settlement back in 1992, plus an enormous luxury home for life at Kensington Palace, plus 24-hour security. As Charles's friends pointed out, she didn't love him either. She didn't know him and she made no effort to take an interest in his hobbies or friends. If the RF are so uniformly awful, then why are so many other royal spouses perfectly happy? That includes Camilla, Kate, Sophie (married to the Queen's youngest son), Tim Laurence (married to the Queen's daughter, and Mike Tindall (married to the queen's grand-daughter.) Diana had an irrational hatred of the royals. I know Charles should never have married her, but she was HANDSOMELY compensated for that wrongdoing.

I'm not saying that she didn't have reason to complain; she absolutely did. I'm saying that there are two sides to that story and that hers was 100 percent biased in favor of herself, and thus contained no balance.