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Do you really believe everyone else is ‘perfectly happy’? Or just not able to talk openly about their experiences?
Is Family Estrangement Becoming More Common?
- Thread starter Jambalaya
- Start date
Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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unfortunalty due to Diana's tragic early death she will always be the beautiful wronged tragic saint
she will never get to grow and move on and untilmatly heal, i like to think if she had lived her realtionship with her childrne's father would have improved, i dont beleave either of them hated each othe, not near the end of her life anyway
anyway the book i want to buy is Prince Edward the Duke of Kent's
mn_shopaholic
Shiny_Rock
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the wrong dog ?
Yes, because she's too big (60 pounds, or about 27 kg), which I like because I wanted a sturdy enough dog that we could get out for longer walks/hikes. Though this person doesn't like pets of any kind, so it wouldn't matter what I had, it would be the wrong one for some reason or another.
@Jambalaya - thank you for starting this conversation. Family estrangement is something that's been on my mind a lot over the last couple of years after a few decades of what feels like nothing but dysfunctional interactions with family, so it has been very interesting to read about other people's thoughts and experiences with the matter.
The people I mentioned have all been married to their spouses for many years. Royals can get divorced - see Charles and Diana! - and they all have the money to fund a divorce, so why would they stay married and unhappy? It's not like it was in the Eighties. They all look really relaxed and happy together at their events, plus there are no leaks from staff about any marital problems. With Charles and Diana, it was obvious how unhappy they were from their body language, and she made darn sure she got the word out via "sources," long before her book. There were stories in the press about blazing rows and Camilla from very early on, and people dismissed them, but it all turned out to be true.
Now, I'm not saying that they like everything about being in the RF. I'm sure they have their in-law issues same as anyone, and they probably hate the press and the level of protocol. But Diana really detested the family, and seemed to have no balance at all in her view, even though the Queen and her husband both disapproved of Charles's relationship with Camilla and Prince Philip tried his best to help the marriage. He wrote to Diana that neither of them approved of either Charles or Diana having lovers, and that he and the Queen never dreamed he would prefer Camilla to her. The Queen resisted the relationship for years after Diana's death, refused to to go the wedding, and during her congratulatory speech at the reception, managed to avoid referring to Camilla by name once. These details are all in Diana's own book or books by authorized biographers like Penny Junor, who is Prince Charles' mouthpiece.
I see the same hostility and anger in Harry, with seemingly nothing to counterbalance it, such as the good relationship he always had with William. It's well-established that Diana lived with challenges to her mental health, dating back to childhood when she had periods of going mute for weeks. It's hardly surprising if she did, with the childhood trauma she suffered (her mother left the family home when Diana was six, after a volatile marriage).
Such details are in Sally Bedell Smith's book DIANA IN SEARCH OF HERSELF, which has to be the most careful, balanced, fair, and well-researched biography I've ever read. All sources are carefully vetted and appear in meticulous endnotes.
Partgypsy said that we don't really know, but when it comes to the royals, between leaks from staff, information from "sources" that turn out to be friends of the royal who wanted the information out there, and authorized biographies, plus their body language during events and things that journalists turn up from household members speaking "off the record," we can put together some pretty accurate guesses! Do we know everything? Of course not. But many, MANY stories that appeared in the press over the years turned out to be spot-on.
Back to William and Harry, I'm at least assuming things between them were as good as they seemed! We will see what he has to say when his book comes out...
the wrong dog ?
That's exactly what I thought!!! How can anyone have the wrong dog??
mn_shopaholic
Shiny_Rock
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Right?!? Even the cat approves (or at least can appreciate that the dog = more comfy beds and toys)! Gratuitous photo because, why not
aljdewey
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I don't think any onlookers to relationships can declare that estrangements are 'deserved' or 'not deserved', to be honest.
Each of us has a personal responsibility to determine what we are willing to accept for engagement in our relationships and what we aren't willing to accept. You may decide your limits rest at a different place than mine do, even if we were in the same family unit. It is not for me to tell you what you should/shouldn't accept in your relationships, and it's not for you to tell me what I should accept (or not) in mine.
It seems like many here think the decision to withdraw is motivated by a desire to be punitive. I don't think it is; I think it's more about reclaiming peace. Stepping away from someone doesn't necessarily mean you can't see or appreciate other many lovely qualities about that person; it just means that you cannot find a path to peace or harmony with continued contact.
Each of us has a personal responsibility to determine what we are willing to accept for engagement in our relationships and what we aren't willing to accept. You may decide your limits rest at a different place than mine do, even if we were in the same family unit. It is not for me to tell you what you should/shouldn't accept in your relationships, and it's not for you to tell me what I should accept (or not) in mine.
It seems like many here think the decision to withdraw is motivated by a desire to be punitive. I don't think it is; I think it's more about reclaiming peace. Stepping away from someone doesn't necessarily mean you can't see or appreciate other many lovely qualities about that person; it just means that you cannot find a path to peace or harmony with continued contact.
Demon
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Right?!? Even the cat approves (or at least can appreciate that the dog = more comfy beds and toys)! Gratuitous photo because, why not
Oh, that is SO not the wrong dog! Reminds me so much of mine.
I remember growing up one of my older (70’s) great aunts, didn’t speak to her sister for like 30 or 40 years over something trivial.. or so the story was told. I recall thinking how insane that was and how the rest of the family wished they would both “get over it” put it to rest etc.
Fast forward to 2014, when my sister, whom I was very close to, had done something that crossed a line in our relationship which made it too difficult to come back from. It’s not just what she did, but how she handled herself when I found out that put the proverbial pin in our relationship. Aside from a few words over text at the time and some cordial interactions at family events, I haven’t spoken to her since. I never made a big deal out of it around my family, some know why, some don’t….it’s a quiet protest, but it obvious I don’t speak to her
Anyhow, here I am, the one where the story will be told that I didn’t speak to my sister for 40 years over something “trivial“. Not many know what happened, but those that do, understand it’s not something forgettable, forgivable sure… but I will never be able to interact with her with a clear heart again. It was as far from trivial and what’s worse is, she knows it.
What a long way to say that I don’t think it’s becoming more common lol.
~ M ~
Fast forward to 2014, when my sister, whom I was very close to, had done something that crossed a line in our relationship which made it too difficult to come back from. It’s not just what she did, but how she handled herself when I found out that put the proverbial pin in our relationship. Aside from a few words over text at the time and some cordial interactions at family events, I haven’t spoken to her since. I never made a big deal out of it around my family, some know why, some don’t….it’s a quiet protest, but it obvious I don’t speak to her
Anyhow, here I am, the one where the story will be told that I didn’t speak to my sister for 40 years over something “trivial“. Not many know what happened, but those that do, understand it’s not something forgettable, forgivable sure… but I will never be able to interact with her with a clear heart again. It was as far from trivial and what’s worse is, she knows it.
What a long way to say that I don’t think it’s becoming more common lol.
~ M ~
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But this assumes that everybody is being reasonable....hypothetically, what if one person in an estrangement is clearly being unreasonable and causing a loved one a great deal of un-deserved pain? Your theory doesn't account for the fact that some people can be pretty horrible due to character issues. I am very close to one family estrangement and the estranger is absolutely in the wrong. Which is no surprise because this person is famously difficult.
Except...to the estrangee, the action of estrangement appears extremely hostile. If they are being appreciated from a distance, they have no way of knowing it in a full estrangement. (And full estrangements are what I'm talking about, not just a lot of distance.)
@MoxiRoxi I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. Sometimes you have to step away for your own mental health. Really sorry to hear that she felt she could do something so destructive to your relationship. 
ETA: Sigh. If everybody acted in a reasonable manner, instead of taking liberties and showing disrespect, far fewer people would be estranged. I don't know what is so difficult about being reasonable, pleasant, and showing others the respect that they themselves would like to receive. Why do human being have SUCH a hard time respecting others? That's at the root of much of these relational difficulties, in my view - a lack of respect. The mother who feels empowered to pressure an adult daughter relentlessly for grandchildren; the parents who feel that they can pressure family into marrying someone from the same religion; the best friend who is mean about her friend's wedding because she just had a break-up....the list goes on. And clearly Moxi's sister just could not resist doing something deeply disrespectful.
It's all such a pity.
ETA: Sigh. If everybody acted in a reasonable manner, instead of taking liberties and showing disrespect, far fewer people would be estranged. I don't know what is so difficult about being reasonable, pleasant, and showing others the respect that they themselves would like to receive. Why do human being have SUCH a hard time respecting others? That's at the root of much of these relational difficulties, in my view - a lack of respect. The mother who feels empowered to pressure an adult daughter relentlessly for grandchildren; the parents who feel that they can pressure family into marrying someone from the same religion; the best friend who is mean about her friend's wedding because she just had a break-up....the list goes on. And clearly Moxi's sister just could not resist doing something deeply disrespectful.
It's all such a pity.
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aljdewey
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Again....there is no singular definition for "reasonable". What you may not find reasonable as an onlooker, I may find perfectly reasonable as a participant. It's not for you to say. You are, of course, welcome to have your own opinion about it. But to think that you are empowered to decide if someone else's reasons for withdrawing contact are valid is really presumptive, IMO.
I cannot speak to your situation, of course - but I can speak to mine. I have been out of contact with someone in my family for a few years now, and I know it's painful for her. It's painful for me, too, but it's less painful than continuing to tolerate offensive behavior. As with most withdrawals, it is not really about a singular incident, but a long-term breakdown in healthy communication.
I personally do not ascribe to a 'family at all costs' mentality, and I don't especially care if onlookers feel I'm being reasonable or not. It's not for them to say. I am the only one who can decide what is right for me; no one else. They are not in my shoes, and I'm not in theirs. YMMV, and if you feel that it's better to tolerate offensive behavior than to sever a family tie, I support your right to do so.
Except...to the estrangee, the action of estrangement appears extremely hostile. If they are being appreciated from a distance, they have no way of knowing it in a full estrangement. (And full estrangements are what I'm talking about, not just a lot of distance.)
Again, speaking for myself only.......I cannot control how the estrangee feels about it or interprets it, and that's not my responsibility. In every relationship, both parties have choices about how well they communicate their needs and how they listen to the other's needs.......how they behave, how well they listen, how willing they are to be respectful of each other. Relationships rarely break down completely over a single incident.
In my case individually, the family member in question can be very warm, very caring, and generally has a big heart. She can also be very rigid, very inconsiderate, and thinks that asserting her personal empowerment absolves her from being at all considerate to others. We disagree. If the estrangee is that hurt, it is within her power to amend her behavior. If she chooses not to, that choice has consequences.
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Hmmmm....this is an interesting discussion. You don't think that this position is somewhat nihilistic? By which I mean, we all know right from wrong. Most of us can spot unfair treatment, especially when we know a lot about a given situation and the people in it. If everything is relative to one's viewpoint, surely there is no right or wrong? For example, the person who stabbed Salman Rushdie probably thinks he is being totally reasonable! (That's different from withdrawing contact, of course, because any reasonable person can see that attacking someone is wrong.)
But I'm using the extreme to illustrate a point, which is that if we can't define what is reasonable, then we have relational anarchy where people can treat each other however they like and everyone should accept it. When I know the situation and the players, I feel that I'm able to make a value judgement, broadly speaking, on reasonable behavior versus non-reasonable behavior. But perhaps you mean that some vital piece of info. might have been withheld? That's definitely possible!
I do agree with you in some sense, which is that before judging, people should try hard to understand why someone would estrange. They should exercise HUGE empathy and think hard about how THEY would feel if they were on the receiving end of the treatment that made the estranger estrange, before they side with the estrangee. Too often, people don't exercise enough empathy and they just want the estrangement to be over because it would be more comfortable for everyone else that way.
Some estrangements are reasonable and some aren't, in my view. Each one is so different. I don't approve of estrangements for trivial reasons - it hurts the estrangee SO MUCH and sometimes it is really un-deserved. Maybe you would feel less flexible on the definition of reasonable if you were on the receiving end of an estrangement from someone you loved and you really didn't know why. On the other hand, there are times when someone just pushes you to the absolute max and you have to estrange to save yourself.
On a more general note, I think that some "bad" behavior toward others comes about because of challenges with mental health or undiagnosed conditions. I have an extended-family member (in the family by marriage) who drives others crazy with her inappropriate questions and her tendency to talk and talk, and dominate conversations, and not pick up on social cues. She has at least one family member who is estranged from her for these reasons. But I have a sneaking suspicion that she may be on the autism spectrum. One of the reasons is that together with her socially tone-deaf behavior, she takes everything literally. She doesn't know when you're making a joke - you have to explain to her that it's a joke. Of course I don't know if she's on the spectrum, but I have room for that possibility in my mind, which is why I'm not estranged from her even though she, too, drives me crazy sometimes! She is old - well over 80 - and has serious health conditions. I know the estrangement has hurt her greatly and I do wish the estranger would cut her a little more slack. This estranger has only met the old person a small handful of times and she barely knows her (she married into the family fairly recently) but finds the constant talking a bore. Which it is. What I mean to say is that there's no years-long backstory here. This estranger is just being mean to an old, sick person, in my view.
I may be a little presumptive about Harry. My judgement from everything I've seen and read is that he's being a complete ass to his family. But I'm willing to change my mind and will listen to what he has to say in his book with an open mind. Maybe his family has done terrible things to him. Maybe William is secretly a monster. I do think that forcing him to walk behind his mother's coffin in a funeral cortege was HORRIBLE and counts as abuse. I think Diana would have been completely horrified about that.
@aljdewey Did you edit some of your post while I was writing? I don't think I saw some of it before - but sorry if I just missed some of it. I do agree with much of what you say. Actions have consequences and if someone treats another with disrespect, they shouldn't be surprised to find themselves kicked out of someone's life. And yes, a long-term breakdown in healthy communication will definitely do it!
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I have a further general thought on estrangements to share:
We've all heard tales about how people did fall out over an argument, and years later, they can't even remember what they fell out about. I'm not talking about instances where you estrange from someone who has an overall character that just makes them impossible to be in contact with, I'm talking about arguments and misunderstandings and insults that seem unbearable at the time, but which simmer down with the passing of time.
At the time, a person might be outraged and cut off contact. I did this with my ex-MIL. She was so rude and she used to make my blood absolutely boil. She went too far one day and I estranged from her. To my complete surprise, I did live to regret it somewhat. The years passed, and I got over that insult, and wished that we were in touch again. We did get back in touch, but it wasn't really the same.
So it's possible that people who initiate an estrangement might not always feel as bad in the future as they do now, regarding what passed between them, but it's too late and the relationship is really gone. Or perhaps the person who behaved badly DOES turn out to have a diagnosis, or perhaps their bad behavior was due to something they were going through that the person who cut off contact didn't know about at the time.
If one is going to initiate an estrangement, it's always a good idea to be really sure that you're OK with losing that person forevermore, because your feelings might soften over time or new information might come to light. Just some random new thoughts on this issue! A couple of estrangements in my family are difficult to watch, because I love both parties, and then there's Harry's family troubles in the news a lot, which makes me reflect on my own family estrangements...I guess I'm using this thread to work out some of my feelings.
We've all heard tales about how people did fall out over an argument, and years later, they can't even remember what they fell out about. I'm not talking about instances where you estrange from someone who has an overall character that just makes them impossible to be in contact with, I'm talking about arguments and misunderstandings and insults that seem unbearable at the time, but which simmer down with the passing of time.
At the time, a person might be outraged and cut off contact. I did this with my ex-MIL. She was so rude and she used to make my blood absolutely boil. She went too far one day and I estranged from her. To my complete surprise, I did live to regret it somewhat. The years passed, and I got over that insult, and wished that we were in touch again. We did get back in touch, but it wasn't really the same.
So it's possible that people who initiate an estrangement might not always feel as bad in the future as they do now, regarding what passed between them, but it's too late and the relationship is really gone. Or perhaps the person who behaved badly DOES turn out to have a diagnosis, or perhaps their bad behavior was due to something they were going through that the person who cut off contact didn't know about at the time.
If one is going to initiate an estrangement, it's always a good idea to be really sure that you're OK with losing that person forevermore, because your feelings might soften over time or new information might come to light. Just some random new thoughts on this issue! A couple of estrangements in my family are difficult to watch, because I love both parties, and then there's Harry's family troubles in the news a lot, which makes me reflect on my own family estrangements...I guess I'm using this thread to work out some of my feelings.
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My mom is a severe alcoholic. One day, my 6 year old son asked if she was an alcoholic because she drank beer with pizza and drove him home,
That was her grooming him. It was also the last straw. I took years and years of abuse, but i couldn’t tolerate my son beginning the same cycle.
She tried to justify herself by saying she doesn’t drink water, but never an apology from her. Instead, she was haughty.
That was the last conversation i had with her. I haven’t spoken to her in ten years and i don’t ever plan to. Needless to say, my life has been much more peaceful without her.
That was her grooming him. It was also the last straw. I took years and years of abuse, but i couldn’t tolerate my son beginning the same cycle.
She tried to justify herself by saying she doesn’t drink water, but never an apology from her. Instead, she was haughty.
That was the last conversation i had with her. I haven’t spoken to her in ten years and i don’t ever plan to. Needless to say, my life has been much more peaceful without her.
@House Cat That's awful. I'm so sorry your mom has problems with alcohol and couldn't/didn't get it under control. Sounds like you're definitely better off without that in your and your son's life. Severe alcoholism is an extremely negative thing to be around.
ETA: I'm just curious: has she managed to get sober? I hear alcoholism is a very difficult addiction to break - I mean, they all are, of course, but I think alcohol is meant to be one of the ones with the worst hold. And people can relapse after decades of sobriety. It's a truly dreadful disease.
ETA: I'm just curious: has she managed to get sober? I hear alcoholism is a very difficult addiction to break - I mean, they all are, of course, but I think alcohol is meant to be one of the ones with the worst hold. And people can relapse after decades of sobriety. It's a truly dreadful disease.
I'll just add that I think there's a lot that's not automatically the case in any given estrangement that might be assumed to be. Comparing family estrangements to divorce hits on it better, I think.
For ex., when a couple gets divorced, maybe they could have or should have tried harder. Maybe one of them is at fault or at least a lot more at fault than the other, and maybe one (or both) has a personality disorder or mental illness.
But maybe not, because there are also other factors. Such as the history between the two of them and other circumstances that come their way and how the two of them fit together and change together over time. There's not necessarily a villain and an angel. In fact, I'd guess that's somewhat rare.
I also don't think the number of estrangements someone has automatically means they are the problem either. Again, comparing it to marriage (where you got to choose your partner as an adult, let's remember). We might think someone who's been divorced three times is probably the problem in the marriages. But what if the divorced person is 95 years old? Then each marriage may have lasted 25 years, which is way, way past the average.
Or what if, say, there are no kids involved and the marriages were no longer happy ones and they just decided to part ways? Is it a tragedy or people just adjusting the best they can through their lives?
Also like marriage, with a family of origin, managing a problem parent or sibling for ten or twenty years is one thing but over fifty years, it's a whole lot more likely for that "last straw" to be reached.
Also having to do with "how many" estrangements someone has, other factors are that couples who get married at the typical age may well have family dysfunctions as part of both of their backgrounds and it can easily also be a large part of why they were drawn to each other. A common one is that one of them has a drinking problem, for ex., and comes from a family of alcoholism. The spouse comes from a similar background, where tolerating and managing a drunken spouse is what was expected from family members. They get together. Then they both straighten up, and both of their families look quite different to them. The couple is likely to start moving away from both families of origin if those families don't also straighten up.
Also, for myself anyway, I'm older and have already been through all that putting up with a bunch of crap to keep the peace. After you walk away from one, it's easier to walk away from another. That could be considered a personal problem or it could be considered what I consider it, which is just being older, wiser and stronger.
If someone adds way more pain than happiness to my life, I'll probably steer clear of them. If they want to call that me mistreating them or if anyone on the outside wants to flap their gums about it, I couldn't care less.
I don't make such decisions lightly but I do make them and no one else. I think of it like the instructions they give you on a plane for some reason, put on your own oxygen mask first lol.
If anyone asked for my advice about other people's estrangements, it would be to just stay out of it. Unless we're talking about the royals or other celebrities. Then it's fair game and simply delicious!
For ex., when a couple gets divorced, maybe they could have or should have tried harder. Maybe one of them is at fault or at least a lot more at fault than the other, and maybe one (or both) has a personality disorder or mental illness.
But maybe not, because there are also other factors. Such as the history between the two of them and other circumstances that come their way and how the two of them fit together and change together over time. There's not necessarily a villain and an angel. In fact, I'd guess that's somewhat rare.
I also don't think the number of estrangements someone has automatically means they are the problem either. Again, comparing it to marriage (where you got to choose your partner as an adult, let's remember). We might think someone who's been divorced three times is probably the problem in the marriages. But what if the divorced person is 95 years old? Then each marriage may have lasted 25 years, which is way, way past the average.
Or what if, say, there are no kids involved and the marriages were no longer happy ones and they just decided to part ways? Is it a tragedy or people just adjusting the best they can through their lives?
Also like marriage, with a family of origin, managing a problem parent or sibling for ten or twenty years is one thing but over fifty years, it's a whole lot more likely for that "last straw" to be reached.
Also having to do with "how many" estrangements someone has, other factors are that couples who get married at the typical age may well have family dysfunctions as part of both of their backgrounds and it can easily also be a large part of why they were drawn to each other. A common one is that one of them has a drinking problem, for ex., and comes from a family of alcoholism. The spouse comes from a similar background, where tolerating and managing a drunken spouse is what was expected from family members. They get together. Then they both straighten up, and both of their families look quite different to them. The couple is likely to start moving away from both families of origin if those families don't also straighten up.
Also, for myself anyway, I'm older and have already been through all that putting up with a bunch of crap to keep the peace. After you walk away from one, it's easier to walk away from another. That could be considered a personal problem or it could be considered what I consider it, which is just being older, wiser and stronger.
If someone adds way more pain than happiness to my life, I'll probably steer clear of them. If they want to call that me mistreating them or if anyone on the outside wants to flap their gums about it, I couldn't care less.
I don't make such decisions lightly but I do make them and no one else. I think of it like the instructions they give you on a plane for some reason, put on your own oxygen mask first lol.
If anyone asked for my advice about other people's estrangements, it would be to just stay out of it. Unless we're talking about the royals or other celebrities. Then it's fair game and simply delicious!
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@seaurchin So many good points here!
Yeah, exactly!
Unless we're talking about the royals or other celebrities. Then it's fair game and simply delicious!
Yeah, exactly!
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She never got sober. “She doesn’t have a problem.” She thinks she’s not drinking if she’s only drinking wine
@MoxiRoxi I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. Sometimes you have to step away for your own mental health. Really sorry to hear that she felt she could do something so destructive to your relationship.
ETA: Sigh. If everybody acted in a reasonable manner, instead of taking liberties and showing disrespect, far fewer people would be estranged. I don't know what is so difficult about being reasonable, pleasant, and showing others the respect that they themselves would like to receive. Why do human being have SUCH a hard time respecting others? That's at the root of much of these relational difficulties, in my view - a lack of respect. The mother who feels empowered to pressure an adult daughter relentlessly for grandchildren; the parents who feel that they can pressure family into marrying someone from the same religion; the best friend who is mean about her friend's wedding because she just had a break-up....the list goes on. And clearly Moxi's sister just could not resist doing something deeply disrespectful.
It's all such a pity.
Thank you and you nailed it! I dont believe that we all have to agree or even like one another for that matter… but simply being respectful and kind can go a long way!
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Sort of - I'd quoted your post and then realized that I'd left the last portion off, so I corrected it.
To answer your question on whether or not the position I outlined is nihilistic - I don't think it is at all. The very nature of community requires us to all loosely define acceptable behavior, but relationships are 1:1, and the only two people whose definitions matter in those engagements are the two people in it.
I guess I'm just trying to say that every situation is unique to the two people involved. Each of us has closely held personal beliefs that influence how we perceive things, and those personal beliefs may make it impossible to really understand choices of others who don't share those same beliefs. That doesn't necessarily make them right or wrong.
It's super easy to seize on the pieces of information we *think* we know and make value judgments about how valid we think others' action are/aren't based on those pieces of information. Unless you're privvy to all of a person's engagements/experiences with another, and unless you share all the same values/beliefs as the person you're judging, you can only have a limited insight into the validity of someone's actions.
aljdewey
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I'm going to again say that I think withdrawal from a relationship - total estrangement - is rarely a situation of "oh, everything was hunky dory until this one blow-out happened." It's called the final straw for a reason; it's rarely the only straw.
Your description of your MIL situation perfectly supports this. Your story implies that you found her behavior rude on more than one occasion, and then one day she went too far. That's precisely how estrangements happen - we convey that some behavior is offensive or hurtful, and the other party chooses to continue the behavior anyway. We fall out of mutual consensus on what behavior is acceptable between us.
Estrangements do not have to be permanent; if both parties want to resume the relationship and are willing to find consensus on acceptable treatment going forward, that's all it takes. It shouldn't go back to 'the same' because that means the injury will reoccur; it will either be less or more than it was before.
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As far as what is reasonable, not reasonable, I'm old enough to have learned, you can't control people. You can only control your own behavior, or your response to someone else's behavior. My sister has had unilateral fallings out with me multiple times. It relates to when we lived together, that we have very different memories about. The first couple times it happened, it really wounded me. I felt she was mischaracterizing me, and also mourned our loss of closeness. People on the outside felt she was the one in the wrong. But you know, it doesn't matter what those other people think. Or even what I think, aside from deciding how I want to respond to that rebuff. People have autonomy and with a few exceptions have the right to choose what relationships or friendship they want to continue and which they do not. I've made my peace about it. I am available for times she is open to me, but otherwise put energy into relationships that are reciprocal. That's all anyone can do. Demanding a relationship, indicates a lack of respect of that person. Lack of respect to their autonomy.
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