Is this obstruction in OEC?

[Aurora26]

I have had my OEC for about a week now, and have worn it a couple days to test it out in various lightings. I'm grappling with some discontent and wanted to get some constructive opinions from here.

A little background on my journey - I was looking for a 2.5-3ct OEC, flowery under the table table facets, and an LA jeweler I contacted brought one in for me that matched all my specs. I saw it 2 times for about 15 min each, same day, with a 10x loupe, and a couple days later decided to purchase. I wasn't allowed to take photos or videos but the jeweler sent me some.
TLDR: I bought an OEC quickly upon seeing it twice

Stats on the stone:
2.72 ct
K, VS1
8.90mm x 8.67mm x 5.57mm
60% table, 63.3% depth

Now that I've had it set (love the DK setting) and have had the chance to fully appreciate it, I am bothered by two issues and want to clarify if I am being nitpicky and perhaps need to consider an AVC or CER:

1. Potential obstruction. The facets under the table seem to reflect what's directly in front of them. Our ceiling is grey unfinished concrete and I have dark hair, so I see that sometimes though not all the time.
2. There is fuzziness or blurriness in the peripheral of the table, like the flowery facets under the table are there but then towards the outer edge of the table, it's not longer defined facets / more crushed ice.

My main question is, is what I am seeing actual bad obstruction or will I see this degree of obstruction in most other old cuts? I understand that even though the total depth is sufficient, it's about angles and maybe this stone's just aren't ideal. And I think that #2 is the result of a larger table, nothing to do here unless I consider a recut or something. Right now, I'm leaning towards asking the jeweler if I can please return the stone, and starting the search over, but need some constructive feedback on if I'm being overly nuts.

Video:

 

[lovedogs]

IMHO what you're seeing is similar to a "nail head" or "fish eye" effect. Basically, the cut isn't what we would hope for in an OEC so it's reflecting darkness under the table rather than the pretty floral patterns (I assume that's what you were hoping for). Sorry

 

[Aurora26]

IMHO what you're seeing is similar to a "nail head" or "fish eye" effect. Basically, the cut isn't what we would hope for in an OEC so it's reflecting darkness under the table rather than the pretty floral patterns (I assume that's what you were hoping for). Sorry

Thank you, I have been reading lots of threads on obstruction types including those but wasn't sure. I have already beat myself over the quick decision so now am chalking it up to a learning experience and probably the most "first world problem" I have ever encountered. I greatly appreciate your feedback!

 

[lovedogs]

Thank you, I have been reading lots of threads on obstruction types including those but wasn't sure. I have already beat myself over the quick decision so now am chalking it up to a learning experience and probably the most "first world problem" I have ever encountered. I greatly appreciate your feedback!

It's definitely not a "bad" stone by any means, so I hope you aren't overly deflated. But I think OECs are really hard sometimes because ones with the floral facet patterns are sometimes hard to find.

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

Many, many here on PS know much more about old cuts than I, so I know you will get more responses that are technical. But I will concur that the table is large on your stone compared to many, and causing the issue you have. If you already have these issues, I would encourage you to seek a return of this one. I doubt you will ever "unsee" this and I think you deserve to have one that makes your heart sing! While very very few of us have our holy grail diamond, we all should love what we have, imo. Good luck in your decision.

 

[Aurora26]

It's definitely not a "bad" stone by any means, so I hope you aren't overly deflated. But I think OECs are really hard sometimes because ones with the floral facet patterns are sometimes hard to find.

Many, many here on PS know much more about old cuts than I, so I know you will get more responses that are technical. But I will concur that the table is large on your stone compared to many, and causing the issue you have. If you already have these issues, I would encourage you to seek a return of this one. I doubt you will ever "unsee" this and I think you deserve to have one that makes your heart sing! While very very few of us have our holy grail diamond, we all should love what we have, imo. Good luck in your decision.

It's such a fiery stone and really gorgeous in many settings. But agreed, I can't "unsee" what I noticed and what bothers me. At the end of the day I want this purchase to be something I feel 100% about from the get-go so I am happy to continue the search and be more patient this time. Hopefully the jeweler will agree to take it back, and if not I'll cross that bridge if I get there.

 

[Aurora26]

Well now I’m second guessing myself again...

 

[ForteKitty]

3/4 of the petals under the table all turn "on" or "off" at the same time, so what you're seeing is that happening. When they all turn "off", you really notice the darkness. The total depth isn't the issue, so I suspect it's a angles issue with the 60% table combined with maybe a shallower crown and a deeper pavilion. I would get a refund if possible.

 

[prs]

@Aurora26 I wonder if the obstruction you are seeing happens only when you hold your camera directly over the table when taking your photos. It does seem like the obstruction goes away when the diamond is tilted away from you, or when the diamond is more distant from the camera.

DW's OEC recently won JOTW and it took me a couple of photo sessions to figure out how to position the camera so I didn't get obstruction. DW could actually see the under the table area turn black if I got too close with the camera. I'd read plenty about what caused obstruction but the penny never really dropped until I experienced it in real life

Your OEC looks phenomenal in some of the photos. The real test will be if you can see obstruction with the naked eye at normal viewing distance.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Nothing to add but to say your hands are very beautiful. Hand model!!

cheers--Sharon

 

[Aurora26]

Now I am more confused than ever with the varying opinions, and also since it looks great outside or whenever there isn’t anything dark around. Here are some more videos in various lighting scenarios

 

[Aurora26]

HI:

Nothing to add but to say your hands are very beautiful. Hand model!!

cheers--Sharon

Wow thank you for saying that.

 

[Aurora26]

3/4 of the petals under the table all turn "on" or "off" at the same time, so what you're seeing is that happening. When they all turn "off", you really notice the darkness. The total depth isn't the issue, so I suspect it's a angles issue with the 60% table combined with maybe a shallower crown and a deeper pavilion. I would get a refund if possible.

@Aurora26 I wonder if the obstruction you are seeing happens only when you hold your camera directly over the table when taking your photos. It does seem like the obstruction goes away when the diamond is tilted away from you, or when the diamond is more distant from the camera.

DW's OEC recently won JOTW and it took me a couple of photo sessions to figure out how to position the camera so I didn't get obstruction. DW could actually see the under the table area turn black if I got too close with the camera. I'd read plenty about what caused obstruction but the penny never really dropped until I experienced it in real life

Your OEC looks phenomenal in some of the photos. The real test will be if you can see obstruction with the naked eye at normal viewing distance.

I think it does bother me enough to want to find something else if possible. A large and joyful purchase like this shouldn't be something I try to convince myself that I love! Appreciate all the helpful notes, I think I have made up my mind

 

[flyingpig]

3/4 of the petals under the table all turn "on" or "off" at the same time, so what you're seeing is that happening. When they all turn "off", you really notice the darkness. The total depth isn't the issue, so I suspect it's a angles issue with the 60% table combined with maybe a shallower crown and a deeper pavilion. I would get a refund if possible.

I am thinking the opposite.
The diamond has a rather large table, but very small or nearly no table reflection. This indicates the PA can be very low, which can cause obstruction issues (if the crown is not steep enough).
Can we have a photo from the side?

 

[Aurora26]

I am thinking the opposite.
The diamond has a rather large table, but very small or nearly no table reflection. This indicates the PA can be very low, which can cause obstruction issues (if the crown is not steep enough).
Can we have a photo from the side?

DiaCam360 Scan - W5866

Circular Brilliant, K, 2.72, VS1, GIA

up.diacam360.com

 

[Karl_K]

I am thinking the opposite.
The diamond has a rather large table, but very small or nearly no table reflection. This indicates the PA can be very low, which can cause obstruction issues (if the crown is not steep enough).
Can we have a photo from the side?

agree.. most likely shallow pa.

also if it comes and goes depending on distance its a responce to obstruction.

 

[ForteKitty]

I am thinking the opposite.
The diamond has a rather large table, but very small or nearly no table reflection. This indicates the PA can be very low, which can cause obstruction issues (if the crown is not steep enough).
Can we have a photo from the side?

Shallow PA usually leads to the dreaded fisheye girdle ring when combined with a larger table.

ETA: now that i see the pics, PA looks normal but man that crown is steep.

 

[Aurora26]

agree.. most likely shallow pa.

also if it comes and goes depending on distance its a responce to obstruction.

Shallow PA usually leads to the dreaded fisheye girdle ring when combined with a larger table.

ETA: now that i see the pics, PA looks normal but man that crown is steep.

Is a steep crown synonymous to a puffy crown? Isn't that usually what people want in OECs? And so if not a shallow PA, what do you guys think is causing the obstruction?

 

[flyingpig]

For an OEC, I think the stone has a relatively steep crown and shallow pavilion based on the info here. Under the ASET, I expect some arrows will be blue while others will be red.
Btw, August European Rounds have steep crown and deep pavilion, displaying rather large table reflectiom and arrows nearly always appear red under the ASET scope, acting light return rather than contrast.

 

[ForteKitty]

For an OEC, I think the stone has a relatively steep crown and shallow pavilion based on the info here. Under the ASET, I expect some arrows will be blue while others will be red.

Image 5047 looks like the pavilion isn't that shallow. But combined with the crown and table it doesn't work. If the table was around 48% w/ a shallower crown and same pavilion it wouldn't be an issue

 

[ForteKitty]

Is a steep crown synonymous to a puffy crown? Isn't that usually what people want in OECs? And so if not a shallow PA, what do you guys think is causing the obstruction?

Usually people want a puffy crown with a smaller table. I don't go above 52%. Most of mine are between 45% and 50%. When you have a larger table with a steep crown, it leads to longer and larger facets under the table... and when they all turn "off", they tend to look very dark.

 

[Aurora26]

For an OEC, I think the stone has a relatively steep crown and shallow pavilion based on the info here. Under the ASET, I expect some arrows will be blue while others will be red.

Image 5047 looks like the pavilion isn't that shallow. But combined with the crown and table it doesn't work.

So likely the crown is too steep, while the pavilion is too shallow. Just typing out loud, a "better cut" OEC stone would distribute more weight in the pavilion?

If recut to have a less steep crown and smaller table, I can't imagine that would fix the obstruction issue which sounds like it has to do with the pavilion more-so. Thus, to make this proportionally deeper, we would need to trim down the diameter as well. Am I thinking about this the right way?

 

[Aurora26]

Usually people want a puffy crown with a smaller table. I don't go above 52%. Most of mine are between 45% and 50%. When you have a larger table with a steep crown, it leads to longer and larger facets under the table... and when they all turn "off", they tend to look very dark.

@ForteKitty Does that mean you still see some obstruction under the table of your stones but since the facets are shorter, when they turn "off", it's not as drastic as my stone with the longer table facets? Or are the angles of your stones more ideal so that there's not as much "off-ness?" aka obstruction in general?

 

[ForteKitty]

So likely the crown is too steep, while the pavilion is too shallow. Just typing out loud, a "better cut" OEC stone would distribute more weight in the pavilion?

If recut to have a less steep crown and smaller table, I can't imagine that would fix the obstruction issue which sounds like it has to do with the pavilion more-so. Thus, to make this proportionally deeper, we would need to trim down the diameter as well. Am I thinking about this the right way?

Honestly, it all depends on how the angles all work together. There are always exceptions. I've seen very shallow crown and pavilion with a tiny 42% table that had amazing performance. I wouldn't attempt to figure this out on my own... you need to work with someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Aurora26]

Honestly, it all depends on how the angles all work together. There are always exceptions. I've seen very shallow crown and pavilion with a tiny 42% table that had amazing performance. I wouldn't attempt to figure this out on my own... you need to work with someone who knows what they're doing.

Thank you, right I was working with the usual suspects on here so maybe I'll pick that up after I get this stone sorted away, fingers crossed.

 

[ForteKitty]

@ForteKitty Does that mean you still see some obstruction under the table of your stones but since the facets are shorter, when they turn "off", it's not as drastic as my stone with the longer table facets? Or are the angles of your stones more ideal so that there's not as much "off-ness?" aka obstruction in general?

So you see how there are 8 arrows in H&A, right? in old cuts, the shaft/petal part is wider and shorter, so when they all turn on at the same time, it tends to blob together if there's not enough space between the outer tip of the shaft/petal. In stones with the nailhead effect, the facets basically form a dot of darkness with no space between the petal/shafts. None of my stones do that. Mine tend to alternate turning on and off and there is enough space where they don't meld together. What i do is the cup test when i get a diamond. Hold diamond facing you directly, cup other hand (thumb to index/middle like an O), hold over diamond. It usually shows obstruction issues immediately.

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

@Aurora26 I think you did really good recognizing the issues, especially because it is so beautiful! Most of the population will just be blinded by a huge gorgeous rock and not see the tiny issues we are nit picking.

 

[Aurora26]

So you see how there are 8 arrows in H&A, right? in old cuts, the shaft/petal part is wider and shorter, so when they all turn on at the same time, it tends to blob together if there's not enough space between the outer tip of the shaft/petal. In stones with the nailhead effect, the facets basically form a dot of darkness with no space between the petal/shafts. None of my stones do that. Mine tend to alternate turning on and off and there is enough space where they don't meld together. What i do is the cup test when i get a diamond. Hold diamond facing you directly, cup other hand (thumb to index/middle like an O), hold over diamond. It usually shows obstruction issues immediately.

Hmm okay. I'm not sure it is obstruction issues with this stone then. The facets turn on and off quite nicely in a cup made by my hand. But it is when I have my black phone case right above it and then my grey ceiling, the stone picks these up and it bothers me. And @prs was saying this is common with photographing his DW's stone. So wow I think I'm confused again on whether this is just a me problem or if it's true obstruction.

However, issue #2 is still prevalent unless I choose to recut to a smaller table. I'm beginning to think this may be my back-up option if the jeweler will not accept the return.

I tested some stones from Adam last year. Trying to find the videos I took and see if those reflected my apartment's stupid grey ceiling lol.

 

[Aurora26]

@Aurora26 I think you did really good recognizing the issues, especially because it is so beautiful! Most of the population will just be blinded by a huge gorgeous rock and not see the tiny issues we are nit picking.

Absolutely nit picking and driving myself crazy

 

[ForteKitty]

Hmm okay. I'm not sure it is obstruction issues with this stone then. The facets turn on and off quite nicely in a cup made by my hand. But it is when I have my black phone case right above it and then my grey ceiling, the stone picks these up and it bothers me. And @prs was saying this is common with photographing his DW's stone. So wow I think I'm confused again on whether this is just a me problem or if it's true obstruction.

However, issue #2 is still prevalent unless I choose to recut to a smaller table. I'm beginning to think this may be my back-up option if the jeweler will not accept the return.

I tested some stones from Adam last year. Trying to find the videos I took and see if those reflected my apartment's stupid grey ceiling lol.

Are most of them all turning on and off at the same time? On-off-on-off, or On-on-off-off/ on-on-on-off-off-off? If the center is almost all on during the cup test, they will all turn off at the same time when there's something dark close by like your clothing, hair, phone case.