It was too good to be true...

[ellaila]

Amen to all the sound advice so far in this thread!!

He lied to you, period. Not a "the check is in the mail" kind of lie. This was a full-out, life-altering, "I'm hiding something huge from you" kind of lie. You've been through it once already with him, and you know how it affected you (look at the title of your message!) -- how will you feel when he lies to you again and you catch him?

Repeat after me: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I know it's hard to get out of a relationship -- we've all been there and know exactly how painful it can be. But it's better to get out walking on your own two feet with your head held high than to crawl out of it later after you've been broken down by him. I was lied to for years by my first love, and I always talked myself into believing his excuses because I wanted so badly to trust him. But liars are liars, no matter how convincing their excuses may be once they get caught.

Repeat after me: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I hope you listen to what all these wise PSers are telling you! Right now I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees -- you're too close to the situation. But we're not -- we see it for what it really is and giving you the same advice you'd probably give to anyone else in this situation.

ETA: You say, "He has such a good heart, he treats me so well, and he really gets me. Is that ever enough?" -- sure it is .. when there is mutual trust involved!! Now that you know he has lied to you for six months, you will have constant doubts about him if you stay with him. And if you don't have those doubts, then you're living in denial!!

 

[bee*]

I dont have much to say only get out of the relationship now. I agree with all the girls in relation to this one. He has lied to you for six months. Whether you understand the reasons or not, he didnt tell you about his children. He isnt there for them. Seeing them every so often and knowing what their likes and dislikes are does not make a dad. Saying that the women were lying about birth control, has he never heard of a condom if he was worried.
You are with him six months, get out now before you''re with him even longer and love him even more. Ive had so many friends who were convinced their bf''s were the one at six months. In six years, if you ever have kids with him, can you ever trust him to be there for you and your child. Just be very careful. You were with your last boyfriend for years and you found out later rather than sooner about his graduation date and his studies. History just seems to be repeating itselves. You deserve to find someone is honest with you from the start. The fact that you are asking that you hope you''re not doing the wrong thing is a sign that you know yourself what to do. Im really sorry to be harsh,but there are so many warning signs jumping out here.

 

[LAJennifer]

He waited 6 months to tell you. He didn''t tell you earlier because it didn''t suit his best interest. He waited until he was certain that you are in love with him. That is very deceptive manipulation. He has already told you that he doesn''t have the emotional capacity to be a good father (and he isn''t a good father). If you stay with him, what can you expect?

1) A large portion of his income will go to, not one, but two children who aren''t yours.
2) When telling the truth doesn''t suit his best interest - he''ll lie to you. And the subject matter won''t make a difference.
3) He doesn''t have the emotional capacity to be a good father to any future children you may have together.

Please read this post and re-read until it sinks in.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/12/2007 1:30:54 PM
Author: bee*
History just seems to be repeating itself.

EXACTLY. It''s no accident or coincidence that you''ve picked two liars ... in a row. Consider taking time OFF from relationsips to figure out what going on with YOU so you will attract & be attracted to better, healthier, more evolved men in the future.

 

[Hopes]

Date: 1/12/2007 1:39:29 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/12/2007 1:30:54 PM
Author: bee*
History just seems to be repeating itself.

EXACTLY. It's no accident or coincidence that you've picked two liars ... in a row. Consider taking time OFF from relationsips to figure out what going on with YOU so you will attract & be attracted to better, healthier, more evolved men in the future.

One lie doesn't necessarily make a person a liar. Often it really is not the woman's fault that the man is a scumbag. I've seen this time and time again... men want it (i.e. sex), and they get it, no matter the consequences. They get it through charm, manipulation and making the girl think that they truly love her. As awful as it sounds, some people are just not ready to settle down until later in life, after they've broken many hearts. Sometimes guys can be embarrassed and not want to tell you something about some aspect of themselves, but it's up to the girl to figure out if it's a deal breaker. Nowadays, it's not as big of a deal to be divorced/separated/with children, but are you ready to handle that right now at your age? It isn't something that's easy for women 10 or 20 years older, even.

I'm not going to put myself above those that have made mistakes and picked a guy who turns out to be manipulative and good at lying, since I've done it myself, and I'm not going to say I've never lied in my past. But generally a relationship should start with two people laying everything out in the open, usually within a week or two of confessing feelings for each other. This could be pure idealism on my part, but it's easier to fall in love with a complete person, flaws and all, than someone who has a spotless past. When you're in love with someone, it's also so easy to confess everything about yourself and be that kind of vulnerable. I know I fell head over heels in love with my guy years ago, after knowing all the sordid details of his life, and loved him in spite of it. He never had to shock me months later with "oh by the way I used to do xyz drug and almost OD'ed." Bad example, perhaps, but my point is that the information should have been there from the beginning. If it wasn't, then you need to see how severe it is (in this case VERY) and the potential fallouts (numerous, in the case of children).

I know you probably aren't feeling very good about any of this, but you definitely need at least a temporary break to clear your head. If, after doing so, you still want to make this work, be ready for a very tough road ahead of you.

 

[Mara]

i dunno for me, dating a man like this would have been something i did in my late teens when i didn't really know any better. in fact i did date a loser who was separated from his ex-wife for 2+ years, with a few year old son...he hardly ever saw his son even though he loved him. he didn't pay any child support and spent all his money on himself. this didn't really matter to me when i was 19 and just wanted to have a good time with someone fun and not be serious. but you don't marry those men. just like britney should never have married kevin federline! you get your 'bad boy' thing on with those guys and then you grow up and move on.

i think we all were kind of young and stupid at some point in our lives...i surely was. but don't make a mistake you will regret later in life when you are older, more mature and really able to see people for what they are worth.

i will tell you what i have learned since i dated that loser a long time ago when i was 19. the right relationship doesn't have lies or fear in it. the right man doesn't hide things from you for 6 months then make justifications on why they did, OR feel bad for doing it. the right relationship doesn't have HIDDEN CHILDREN or two supposedly psycho ex's who tricked him both times. the right relationship doesn't have terms like 'i hope i am not making a mistake' in it after you find out the truth... it should not be that hard or that baggage filled and especially not at your age when you don't have to compromise. keep your values and what you want held up high. a guy who treats you nice and listens to you and cares for you is a dime a dozen...honestly. i dated a bunch of them over the next 6 years, after i got rid of loser.

please require more from your relationship and your man than 'he treats me well, is nice to me and cares for me...'.

 

[psaddict]

Date: 1/12/2007 1:36:04 PM
Author: LAJennifer
He waited 6 months to tell you. He didn't tell you earlier because it didn't suit his best interest. He waited until he was certain that you are in love with him. That is very deceptive manipulation. He has already told you that he doesn't have the emotional capacity to be a good father (and he isn't a good father). If you stay with him, what can you expect?

1) A large portion of his income will go to, not one, but two children who aren't yours.
2) When telling the truth doesn't suit his best interest - he'll lie to you. And the subject matter won't make a difference.
3) He doesn't have the emotional capacity to be a good father to any future children you may have together.

Please read this post and re-read until it sinks in.

I agree with this.

If he's willing to lie for months about such important information, why wouldn't he have a problem with lying about smaller things from day to day? Men who care about their children and love them would tell their new girlfriend right up front that they have X number of children from a previous relationship who are a very important part of their life. They don't just forget to mention their children for 6 months... and you don't even suspect anything because he visits his children and talks to them so rarely that you didn't notice anything going on.

I also still don't buy the whole "I'm a wonderful gentleman, my girlfriends both lied about being on bith control, then didn't give me the chance to be a good father." His actions speak louder than his words, and his actions show that he doesn't make an effort to be a good father. How can you believe that these 2 women are evil witches and he's an angel when he's not demonstrating in any way that he cares about and wants to spend time with his children?

ETA: the financial thing is also a really important consideration. He'll be making major child support payments for at least the next 14 years, at which point he may be helping to pay for 2 kids college educations, depending on the agreement he has with these women. Do you really want that burden? What if you want to have kids of your own, and are limited in what you can afford or how many you can have because he already has these two? Even if you don't want kids, this is quite a burden to take on. I don't know a lot about child support law, but I wonder if the two of you had all of your assets in joint accounts, and he was out of work, if they could come after your joint money to pay the child support owed? Just something to think about. Of course, the deception and the lack of care for his kids is the main problem. But the added stress/financial burden is just icing on the sour cake.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/12/2007 2:31:28 PM
Author: Hopes

Date: 1/12/2007 1:39:29 PM
Author: decodelighted
Consider taking time OFF from relationsips to figure out what going on with YOU so you will attract & be attracted to better, healthier, more evolved men in the future.

Often it really is not the woman''s fault that the man is a scumbag.

Don''t mistake my point ... I don''t think it''s EVER the woman''s fault if her fella turns out to be a scumbag. But just like I think HE should be taking responsibility for all this stuff he''s blaming others for (getting pregnant, not being a dad because of a lack of role model, wanted to work it out but gal left HIM, wanted to tell but was AFRAID etc etc) ... I think eventually SHE has to take responsibility for CHOOSING seriously flawed men.

It''s not just "bad luck". IMO. There''s something else going on. Something she finds SUBCONCIOUSLY appealing about these types of guys who LOGICALLY she doesn''t want. After all, she broke it off with the last liar. Yet ... here it is again. And an EVEN BIGGER deception this time, albeit it showed itself more quickly (thank goodness).

Nobody''s "fault" ... but worthy of analysis .. IMHO.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/12/2007 11:44:07 AM
Author: Aloros
Ok, so I found out some more from a close mutual friend. It turns out it''s not as bad as I thought. He does see his son more often (though not as often as I would like, honestly) and it''s not as secret as I thought it was. It turns out all his good friends know and have met his son. He also speaks on him with the phone often. He said he''s planning on visiting him more in the future after he quits his side job.

I spoke with my bf and asked him more about his son, and it does sound like he knows him pretty well - his likes and dislikes, his personality, the way he behaves, etc. I feel better having heard him talk about his son because it is pretty obvious that he loves him a lot. It also sounds like he has a lot of regrets about not being financially stable earlier on so he could have custody. He put himself through school and picked a career path where he could make a good deal of money with a master''s degree. But his son is 9 now and it sounds like he is happy where he is.

He does pay child support and keeps updated about his daughter through phone and email.

I''m still pissed he took so long to tell me. Sounds like he beat himself up pretty badly over that, and I know he tried to tell me a couple of times, thinking back, but the fact is, he didn''t. I can understand to a point...there were a couple things I should have told him from the start that I didn''t, but I was afraid he''d think differently of me. Not as big as kids, mind you, but big enough. At any rate, it''s all out in the open now.

I say I don''t like children, but deep down, I really do. I used to babysit a lot, teach swimming lessons, and volunteered at an elementary school. None of which is even close to step-parenting, but I know I''m capable of it. I don''t have a problem with him speaking with his exes, especially if there are children involved. He doesn''t have a problem with me speaking with my ex.

I''m going to try and make this work (I know, I know). I talked to my older brother, and he told me that it doesn''t matter if he has two children, what matters is whether or not I am happy. And if at any point it feels like I am not and that will not change, then I shouldn''t be in the relationship. If at any point I feel like he is being less than completely honest and open with me, or I feel like I actually can''t deal with the fact that he has children, then I''m out.

I hope I''m not making a huge mistake.

OK, say you are a single mother of two. You go back into the dating world. Isn''t one of the first things that come out of your mouth when you meet someone, "I have two kids." ??? You say this because...oh, I dunno...maybe because you love your kids? Because you are proud of them? Because you are honorable enough not to suck someone else to fall in love with you without knowing gigantic life changing details such as this?

THIS IS SOMEONE WHOSE OWN KIDS DON''T FACTOR IN IMPORTANTLY IN HIS LIFE. I don''t see it any other way. And I don''t think much of a person like that.

I agree with your brother. It doesn''t matter that if he has two children. It matters that your man appears to have little integrity.

 

[janinegirly]

i think we're beating a dead horse here ladies (and we've been here before with some other posters). There is nothing sadder to me than seeing a woman who knows there are issues but just reverts to undying loyalty for the "great guy" in her life and proceeds to somehow justify every action of his..even the most ridiculous and agregious ones!

Ask yourself this question, do you think so little of yourself that if a guy just is nice and treats you "well" (save a few lies like he has KIDS) and "gets you" (after 6 months and a few major lies) then he is perfect for you, then you need some major self-analysis and possibly therapy!

anyway, i think much has already been said here, so not much more to add from me..

 

[marvel]

Aloros, Take a look at your post from last month where you described your ex of 5.5 years. This looks like a pattern for you. You should do some serious soul searching and really take a look at the type of men you are choosing.

Good luck to you.

 

[aquarius_ser]

If you stay with this man, you are going to have a long, miserable life.... Run, Run, Run like the wind as fast and as far as you can.

Is there a self-esteem issue here? Do you think you can''t find anyone else?

This is something I would have gotten tangled up with in my late teens or early 20''s.... I can''t still get over how stupid I was.

 

[marvel]

Date: 1/12/2007 12:57:21 PM
Author: fire&ice
Gosh, I hate to hard because everyone makes mistakes - BUT - I would be less concerned with his having two children and more concerned about his *choices*. He chose not to tell you. He chose to become involved with someone who wasn't faithful & has a baby with her. Then, he becomes involved with another women who committed a crime serious enough to be incarceratedl & he becomes a father again - with the same lie that the women is on birth control.

Just makes you wonder. Sorry.

There is such a thing as a condom. He needs to take some responsiblity here.

Is this really the man you want as the father of your kids? Don't kid yourself into thinking it will be different with you.

 

[DMBsGirl]

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this situation. Trust is extremely important in a relationship and you need to figure out if you can fully trust him after this.
I would definitely give it time before making a decision like engagement. Best of luck.

 

[monarch64]

I went through some bad relationships in my early 20''s...my mother always would say to me, "I am going to get you a bracelet engraved ''I am worthy'' so you can look at it every day and forget about these losers!" Another of her favorite quotes was "to thine own self be true."

You ARE worthy...worthy of someone who doesn''t feel it necessary to withhold certain truths from you because he is riddled with issues and baggage. Everyone has baggage...but it''s how they deal with it and convey it to others that determines their character. This guy''s character is questionable in that he didn''t disclose some very important things about himself to you from the beginning. But sometimes it takes hearing others'' opinions on the situation to realize what you''ve gotten yourself into, and that''s understandable. Please , please, please, don''t keep putting yourself in situations where you are just settling because you think he "treats you well." Ask yourself: "if my daughter/sister/mother/friend were in this situation, what would I tell her?" Hopefully that question will bring you back to reality. Good luck!

 

[Cehrabehra]

yeah, being a good father is kinda one of those things that would be non-negotiable.... for me. You could help train him to be there, but he doesn''t seem to WANT to be there. Of course in his head it could be different because it wasn''t what he wanted, but he sounds like has a lot of growing up to do.

 

[ladykemma]

"i have two kids" is first date material. not six months into the relationship.

 

[lawmax]

Date: 1/14/2007 8:49:54 AM
Author: ladykemma
''i have two kids'' is first date material. not six months into the relationship.

Amen

RUN...do not rationalize his behavior, do not justify with feelings of pity/sympathy, do not stop to analyze further...RUN

He "treats you well"? Treat yourself well and attract someone who would not deceive you until he had you "hooked".

From the voice of experience,

lawmax

 

[kcoursolle]

Is having children of your own important to you? If so, I would wonder if this man is capable of raising them well given how he treats his current kids. This would be a deal breaker for me if I wanted kids.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 1/12/2007 12:10:48 PM
Author: Aloros
Oh jeez, I sound like an idiot.

I almost want to slap myself.

I waver from one extreme to the other. He has such a good heart, he treats me so well, and he really gets me. Is that ever enough?

the people who respond to your thread (or any thread) only have as much to go on as you give. And have nothing emotionally at stake. You come here for advice and you''re gonna get a bunch of stuff that may or may NOT fit your situation and it is your responsibility to wade through it all and make the decisions that are right for you. Dont'' listen to anyone else - listen to yourself. All of this is given to help you, not to control you. Be prudent in your decision making. What life do you want? Create it!

 

[KimberlyH]

My only responses to this are snarky because I just can''t believe that someone would actually consider staying with someone who lies about something so serious, I keep typing and erasing, typing and erasing. So I''ll simply say just leave and spend some time learning to like yourself enough that you won''t tolerate such bizarre and horrid behavior from men.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 1/14/2007 9:28:56 PM
Author: KimberlyH
My only responses to this are snarky because I just can''t believe that someone would actually consider staying with someone who lies about something so serious, I keep typing and erasing, typing and erasing. So I''ll simply say just leave and spend some time learning to like yourself enough that you won''t tolerate such bizarre and horrid behavior from men.

ITA with you for myself except that I believe even the mediocre deserve love... it''s just a matter of where you set your sights for yourself. Not saying this man, specifically, is mediocre - just that we each set our goals and not all people share the same..... requirements.

 

[Eva17]

You may think he is blunt and to the point, but he forgot to tell you the point of his ex''s and children for six months.


The wiriting is on the wall. If you choose to stay, then you do so with your eyes wide open.

Good luck!

 

[sistagrl2004]

Wow, I cannot believe this had to make it to a page 2!!! I discovered this WONDERFUL site recently.. www.answerology.com. You post your questions and people from backgrounds you identify give you their answers. Now there were some similar to this on there and the MEN all agreed RUN FORREST RUN! WHat concerns me is the line "he treats me so well" That''s sad to me because I''m not sure you are aware of what good treatment is. Deception, omission.. That''s NOT good treatment. His "closest friends" knowing his children, but you not even knowing ABOUT his children.. NOT good treatment.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 1/15/2007 2:10:59 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 1/14/2007 9:28:56 PM
Author: KimberlyH
My only responses to this are snarky because I just can't believe that someone would actually consider staying with someone who lies about something so serious, I keep typing and erasing, typing and erasing. So I'll simply say just leave and spend some time learning to like yourself enough that you won't tolerate such bizarre and horrid behavior from men.

ITA with you for myself except that I believe even the mediocre deserve love... it's just a matter of where you set your sights for yourself. Not saying this man, specifically, is mediocre - just that we each set our goals and not all people share the same..... requirements.

Cehra, I'm not quite sure what ITA means, I'm thinkng "I tend to agree" but I may be wrong.

I am big on personal responsibility/accountability and respecting free will. If someone chooses to stay in a relationship with a jerk, a liar, a whatever, after he or she figures out that this person is that thing than he or she is only getting what he or she deserves and has asked for in staying. When I dated jerks by choice, which I did, I knew that I deserved to be with a jerk because I didn't require anything more for myself. It wasn't until I wanted more and behaved accordingly that I deserved more. This is not to say that I don't feel sympathy for her as she must not think highly of herself if this is the sort of person she chooses, I just believe people need to accept their role in the mishaps in their lives.

I hope that Aleros, who seems to have disappeared, learns to expect more from her relationship now that she is aware of the kind of many he is., and runs for the hills.

 

[Aloros]

The people who know us both think I should give him a chance. I am doing so. I know you all think I''m making a poor decision, but there are some things that just can''t be conveyed over a messageboard. Some things I''ve said have been misinterpreted, other things need further explanation. However, I could write pages and pages and still not give anyone an accurate view of the situation. I don''t believe I have self-esteem issues. I know my worth. At the same time, I really do understand what is going on in his head, although I can''t condone it. I sympathize with him (sometimes I think an overdeveloped sense of empathy is worse than having self-esteem issues).

His friends tell me how much he has changed, for the better, since dating me. I''ve spoken with him and made some points that show him he has to change. There''s simply no way he can go on the way he has been. If he gets married someday, he''ll want his children at the wedding, then everyone will know, so why hide it? I know there''s a lot of stigma attached to being a teen father, and having children out of wedlock, but I think he''d garner much more respect if he owned up to it. He''s not a teenager anymore. I feel like he''s getting closer to acceptance and taking responsibility, but the fact is, he''s not there yet. He provides financially for his children, is there for holidays and birthdays, plans to have them around in the future, but it''s just not enough.

I''m taking things one day at a time, and although we have a great relationship, and he makes me feel like I could conquer the world, I am prepared to walk away if nothing changes (and I am NOT lifting a finger to even nudge him - been there done that). There''s a part of me that is so in love with him and has been since I first met him, but the rest of me is stone-cold practical. I don''t need anyone by my side that badly. I have two cats to share my bed, a supportive family, and the best friends a person could ask for. The rest is just gravy. Really, really good tasting gravy, but just gravy.

Thanks for your words and support. They''ve helped me to see clearly.

 

[allycat0303]

Aloros,

I can't judge from your posts if you have self-esteem issues or not, but I think you just went through a difficult and shocking time. I agree that you can make a lot of mistakes when you are a teenager or when you are young, and people can change as they grow up. I'm sure everyone of us has done things that we're not proud of, things that we would NEVER do again. I don't believe that a mistake (no matter how terrible) defines a person's entire life. A lot depends on what they do after, what they learn from it, and how they grow as a result of their mistakes.

In any case, you know him. If you feel that you can trust him or that he is worthy of another chance, that is a decision that only you can make. We can only give you *virtual* advice. I hope you feel better about the situation, and you can always vent here. Whatever happens, take care of yourself (and be careful).

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/23/2007 4:29:13 PM
Author: Aloros
The people who know us both think I should give him a chance. I am doing so. I know you all think I''m making a poor decision, but there are some things that just can''t be conveyed over a messageboard. Some things I''ve said have been misinterpreted, other things need further explanation. However, I could write pages and pages and still not give anyone an accurate view of the situation. I don''t believe I have self-esteem issues. I know my worth. At the same time, I really do understand what is going on in his head, although I can''t condone it. I sympathize with him (sometimes I think an overdeveloped sense of empathy is worse than having self-esteem issues).

His friends tell me how much he has changed, for the better, since dating me. I''ve spoken with him and made some points that show him he has to change. There''s simply no way he can go on the way he has been. If he gets married someday, he''ll want his children at the wedding, then everyone will know, so why hide it? I know there''s a lot of stigma attached to being a teen father, and having children out of wedlock, but I think he''d garner much more respect if he owned up to it. He''s not a teenager anymore. I feel like he''s getting closer to acceptance and taking responsibility, but the fact is, he''s not there yet. He provides financially for his children, is there for holidays and birthdays, plans to have them around in the future, but it''s just not enough.

I''m taking things one day at a time, and although we have a great relationship, and he makes me feel like I could conquer the world, I am prepared to walk away if nothing changes (and I am NOT lifting a finger to even nudge him - been there done that). There''s a part of me that is so in love with him and has been since I first met him, but the rest of me is stone-cold practical. I don''t need anyone by my side that badly. I have two cats to share my bed, a supportive family, and the best friends a person could ask for. The rest is just gravy. Really, really good tasting gravy, but just gravy.

Thanks for your words and support. They''ve helped me to see clearly.

You are right in that we certainly don''t know him and cannot really know the situation other than what you present in a few short paragraphs.

As for the part I highlighted above: although I believe that a person can change, I don''t think going into a relationship with the hopes that he will change, and "has" to change, is an auspicious start.

 

[Independent Gal]

We''re all so flawed! Thank goodness for love that makes people hold on to us and believe in us, even against the odds. That said, some of us are more flawed than others and in ways that are more or less harmful, and T''Gal is right that the kind of flaw that makes you pretend your own children don''t exist (can you imagine how they would feel if they knew that?! how HORRIBLE!), that makes you lie about something that fundamental to the woman you love, and that makes you refuse to own responsibility for having PRODUCED those children by claiming, implausibly, that the women tricked him when he should have been using a condom anyway (that really bugged me... teenagers make mistakes... everybody makes mistakes... but maturity is partly the capacity to OWN those mistakes), that kind of flaw spells immaturity and trouble to me.

That said, I know how love can make you stand by someone, support them, and hope for them, even when the auspices are not so good.

And it wouldn''t be the first time a man cleaned up his act and grew up because he loved a woman.

But THAT said, you know, right? that this more likely than not to be a disaster for you.

So, basically, if you go forward, it''s with eyes open, knowing you might be sacrificing your own happiness and well-being to devote yourself to him improving himself. This man seems very childish. And chidlish people can be wonderful and very worthy of love, sure. But they can be horribly difficult and destructive also. Just think of the lasting emotional harm he''s inflicted on his kids.

Maybe you think he is deserving of a chance. Just don''t fool yourself about the chances, yes?

 

[decodelighted]

Something still haunts me from your first post on this guy ... (he''s handsome & funny etc "and out of my league, right?")

It''s as if you thought you got a great deal on Manolos or some shoes you could never normally afford ... only six months later, you find out that not only are they fake, but were made by child-labor. You don''t want to get rid of the "great deal" feeling - no matter how much pesky "reality" comes to light. Even if you''re so allergic to them your FEET will have to be amputated.

Dramatic analogy - but IMO apt.

Oh - and *his* friends and *your* friends aren''t the ones risking their heart & time. Don''t live your life by consensus. Check in with your GUT.