ammayernyc
Brilliant_Rock
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Let''s talk Tookie
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MINE!!
Ideal_Rock
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ammayernyc
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I was just going to suggest that we end the conversation. However, I find it rude, and wrong, that you think I had difficultly understanding the comparision and the illustration. I didn''t find it difficult. I just didn''t agree with it.Date: 12/14/2005 5:14:45 PM
Author: MINE!!
Obviously you and I are spinning round on this... sorry if you had a difficult time understanding the comparison and the illustration. But thanks for adding your comments and opinions to the thread.
And with that, I say adios...
widget
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When they captured Richard Allen Davis after his kidnapping and murder of Polly Klaas, I remember thinking if anyone could change my mind about the death penalty, that monster could...
Well, he didn''t. I still oppose the death penalty. Every time one of these executions takes place, I personally feel a little diminished.
It''s like each execution somehow makes society, and me, a little bit more like the guy that was executed.
Does anyone know how many other modern "civilized" nations practice captial punishment? I suspect not too many...
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Well, he didn''t. I still oppose the death penalty. Every time one of these executions takes place, I personally feel a little diminished.
It''s like each execution somehow makes society, and me, a little bit more like the guy that was executed.
Does anyone know how many other modern "civilized" nations practice captial punishment? I suspect not too many...
widget
I think and feel that irregardless of how anyone feels on this particular hypersensitive subject, he is gone. The Ultimate Judge is God as it should be. Man will make many a different choice whether it be death or life. That is not for me or anyone else to make a judgement on. I go by what is scripturally written and uphold that. Man can and will screw up in decision making--not saying whether an error was or was not made in this case. God never fails and He is the ONLY one who should call us to accountability. The judges and juries of the land are mortals who are called to do the best they can. Laws are in place for all of our benefits. We must leave this discussion alone now. Its been decided. Agree. Disagree. It does not matter in the end. We all have our opinions and that is fine. Whether we agree with one another is irrelevant. We live in a country where we have that right. I feel that we must uphold God''s law on life and death. Done...
Do not mean to offend anyone...just feel very strongly and firmly to uphold God''s Laws...
Do not mean to offend anyone...just feel very strongly and firmly to uphold God''s Laws...
MINE!!
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MINE!!
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tawn
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I know "Mine" asked what we think about "Tookie"....but all I can think about are his victims and their families! They are the ones that are truly paying for his crimes!
It''s easy to judge from whatever side of the fence you happen to be on. I just feel most for the families of the victim(s). My Uncle was murdered when I was eight. Just because some guy had a fascination about what it would be like to kill someone and my uncle was in the wrong place at the wrong time! Siince there was no premeditation or reason, it was manslaughter (Canada). His killer only spent 4 years in jail and my Uncle left behind a wife, 3 small children,13 brothers and sisters, and all of us nieces and nephews. None of feel as though justice was served, and his murder changed our whole family.
Still, no matter what your beliefs are, if a State has the Death Penalty....there should only be one appeal, and a time limit between the sentence and punishment. This 20 years in between isn''t productive for any parties!
Someone also mentioned something about an innocent man being put to death...but I bet that way way way more guilty people go free and unpunished than are wrongly convicted and put to death.
It''s easy to judge from whatever side of the fence you happen to be on. I just feel most for the families of the victim(s). My Uncle was murdered when I was eight. Just because some guy had a fascination about what it would be like to kill someone and my uncle was in the wrong place at the wrong time! Siince there was no premeditation or reason, it was manslaughter (Canada). His killer only spent 4 years in jail and my Uncle left behind a wife, 3 small children,13 brothers and sisters, and all of us nieces and nephews. None of feel as though justice was served, and his murder changed our whole family.
Still, no matter what your beliefs are, if a State has the Death Penalty....there should only be one appeal, and a time limit between the sentence and punishment. This 20 years in between isn''t productive for any parties!
Someone also mentioned something about an innocent man being put to death...but I bet that way way way more guilty people go free and unpunished than are wrongly convicted and put to death.
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movie zombie
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tawn, in the cantu case, the person that has come forward tried to come forward one month before cantu was executed in texas. he sent a letter to cantu''s attorney handling the appeal. she got the letter but figured he wouldn''t have anything to add and she didn''t have the time or money to go visit him herself or send an investigator. she was inexperienced and didn''t have the $$$ to do the job. so one month before cantu was executed evidence was available that exonerated him and yet the system failed.
cantu''s mother is a victim of the state and could briing a wrongful death suit against any and all concerned.
so we now have someone unpunished for the crime, the victim''s relatives still not revenged, and the cantu family entitled to their pound of flesh.
peace, movie zombie
cantu''s mother is a victim of the state and could briing a wrongful death suit against any and all concerned.
so we now have someone unpunished for the crime, the victim''s relatives still not revenged, and the cantu family entitled to their pound of flesh.
peace, movie zombie
tawn
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movie zombie
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tawn, statistically we''re more likely to be murdered by a family member, a friend, or someone we know in some other way. perhaps we should ask our husbands, wives, friends, lovers, the checkout clerk, gardner, hairdresser, etc. what motivates them to do what they do....and ask ourselves as well because we in turn are the biggest threat to those same people. its easy to say ''i''d never do that'' but in the heat of the moment [which is when most murders are committed] sane people have been known to do insane things. wackos that go on a murder spree make great news and keep us all afraid of the ''unknown'' when it is the ''known'' that is most dangerous to each and everyone of us.
btw, statistics also show that in states where the death penalty is utilized and in states where it is not, crime has gone down in both.
peace, movie zombie
btw, statistics also show that in states where the death penalty is utilized and in states where it is not, crime has gone down in both.
peace, movie zombie
We have a responsibility--a very serious responsibility--that should be acted upon with timely thought and not out of what we feel, rather, what is right...too often many criminals are allowed free of execution or freed too early only to constantly reterrify the victims'' family. Justice in the courtroom is on one level. God is on all levels of justice. Man screws up too often for me to put all my faith in the system. When someone murders, is convicted, and dies, its not up to you, me or anyone to say it was right or wrong. It is what it is...We have the best possible system in the world I truly feel...but it seriously lacks consistency and its run by men or man. It will and it has failed and it will fail again, but it is better than other countries systems and I am proud to live here. I uphold the laws as they are intended and vote appropriately for them to be in place. I truly did not mean that you or I or anyone are free from making responsible decisions as U.S. citizens. In fact, I underscore that responsibility...Hope you can appreciate my views better now...
Tawn, if one truly were to get immersed in the knowledge of the candidness of how our system works, yes, it needs alot of adjustment, but it has metamorphisized alot, too. It just has alot more to go. Compared to other countries though, we are all very blessed comparatively. I have a few inside friends behind the scenes who are actively involved so that is from where I speak. So much of what we hear, read or think we know is quite filtered. For the most part, the "people factor" is amiss in all of this. I cringe when I read of stories like the one cited above...
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Indeed, we should all cringe. I believe that capital punishment was ended in the United Kingdom after they executed the wrong man. (I will hve to look that up. An English friend told me that years ago. He said, "You can argue the death penalty until you are blue in the face, but you can''t argue about executing the wrong man".)
Deb
MINE!!
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I love this statement because it is so me on this issue. " A conservative is a liberal who was mugged yesterday".
Some may have followed the whole debate about locks on houses issues. It is near and dear to my heart because of a serial killer that plagued our neighborhood for months taking 7 lives that we know about in a horrible, painful, LONG torturously way. This man (and I use this term lightly) was a monster and deserved to die. Not only for taking his victims lives - but for terrorizing a neighborhood (according the FBI - I was a targeted profile) and actually was "saved" by locking my door while taking my dog for a walk.
Prior to this incident, I did not truly believe in the death penalty - though admittedly wasn''t passionate about it. After this, I firmly believe society is better off without some monsters. BTW, he escaped from a minimum security prision all the days/nights he killed. He just hopped on a bus. It was one of the first cases of DNA testing. And, it was determined that he killed prior to being "locked" up.
No prision is secure. One has to look no further than the Briley case in VA. These monsters escape from death row & went on a killing spree. So - in a perfect world I would agree with AGBF - but it''s less than perfect.
I am saddened to say this - but I sighed a sigh of relief when this monster was dead. He was executed sooner rather than later. Can''t remember off the top of my head - but because the evidence was so overwhelming & the heinous nature of the crime it was within a few years.
So, that''s my position - especially on this monster & the others mentioned. I had a harder time with Tookie. But, in the end, he did start a gang that does henious crimes & terrorizes neighborhoods. And, I agree with the one poster "yeah, they are all innocent"
Some may have followed the whole debate about locks on houses issues. It is near and dear to my heart because of a serial killer that plagued our neighborhood for months taking 7 lives that we know about in a horrible, painful, LONG torturously way. This man (and I use this term lightly) was a monster and deserved to die. Not only for taking his victims lives - but for terrorizing a neighborhood (according the FBI - I was a targeted profile) and actually was "saved" by locking my door while taking my dog for a walk.
Prior to this incident, I did not truly believe in the death penalty - though admittedly wasn''t passionate about it. After this, I firmly believe society is better off without some monsters. BTW, he escaped from a minimum security prision all the days/nights he killed. He just hopped on a bus. It was one of the first cases of DNA testing. And, it was determined that he killed prior to being "locked" up.
No prision is secure. One has to look no further than the Briley case in VA. These monsters escape from death row & went on a killing spree. So - in a perfect world I would agree with AGBF - but it''s less than perfect.
I am saddened to say this - but I sighed a sigh of relief when this monster was dead. He was executed sooner rather than later. Can''t remember off the top of my head - but because the evidence was so overwhelming & the heinous nature of the crime it was within a few years.
So, that''s my position - especially on this monster & the others mentioned. I had a harder time with Tookie. But, in the end, he did start a gang that does henious crimes & terrorizes neighborhoods. And, I agree with the one poster "yeah, they are all innocent"
tawn
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I know from personal experience that you never know what another human is capable of, even the ones you know and love best! Even the people that you are convinced could never ever do something like that...We like to think we''re so civilized, but when I watch the news...I''m not convinced!
But then, the media does it''s best to dramatize things in order to get good ratings. It leads us to believe that the world is at it''s very worst right now and that crime is at an all-time high....but we just watched a program that stated that violent crimes have steadily been decreasing since the 70''s, along with teen pregnancy etc...
Another statistic that really bothers me, is that one of the leading cause of death among women worldwide is being killed by their male partners.
But, this is way off the Tookie subject....
I''m so "on the fence" about this and so many of the big issues. Each side has valid points and there are always so many sides to each story! A lot of it comes down to personal opinion and feelings, and there is that great quote that goes something along the lines of, "feeling are neither right nor wrong, they just are".
Demelza
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I totally disagree with the execution of Tookie or anyone else for that matter. I can think of no good argument in favor of the death penalty except to give people some false sense of safety and control in a world that can sometimes feel very scary. (Contrary to popular opinion, the death penalty is NOT a deterrent.) That is not a reason to support government sanctioned killing. How anyone can support the death penalty in a justice system that is so seriously flawed is beyond me. Quite frankly, I think it''s unconscionable. Inequality, racism, poverty are all part of the very complicated equation here and to reduce the issue to an eye for an eye is ridiculous. I do not subscribe to the belief system that once someone commits a crime, they cease to be human. This way of thinking truly disturbs me.
Demelza
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Very eloquently put. You speak for me as well. I have missed you here.
A friend of mine, who was a detective in the police force of a large city in Connecticut, went to law school at night. When he retired from the police force (about two years ago) he was very much in favor of the death penalty. His political beliefs are quite conservative. After some time spent as a lawyer (and not much time, either), he became convinced that the death penalty should be abolished. It wasn't because he felt as Demelza (and I) did, that state sponsored killing was an inherently bad thing. It was seeing the process at work from a different perspective, from seeing how often lawyers were incompetent, judges were ignorant and unfair, juries came in with the wrong verdict. Perry and Demelza are the only people to address this issue so far in this thread.
Deborah
I think he got the penalty that was given to him by a jury of his peers and that he deserved. He also was not the model prisoner his supporters would have you believe. Had he really turned his life around he would not have gotten into the trouble in prison that he did. From everything I heard he was not the "nice" guy that some of these uninformed celebrities would have you believe. He was a violent murderer, the leader of a notoriously vicious gang and never apologized or even admitted anything he'd ever done. The death penalty is meant to be a deterrent to others as well as punishment for the crimes committed. It would be a much better deterrent if the person sitting on death row didn't sit there for 15 years. A lot of people in prison will never be reformed no matter what anyone does because they don't want to be. They either have no conscience and see nothing wrong with what they did or they are so angry at the world that they can't see beyond that. I believe he made a conscious decision to do all the things he did in his life in a gang and from what I've seen saw nothing wrong with what he did. You know, quite possibly, he wrote those books to try to get clemency and not out of the goodness of his heart. He was a hardened crimminal you know. I also have family in law enforcement and friends retired from law enforcement and every one of them believes in the death penalty because they know these are people that would not hesitate to do what they did again if they got the chance.
Some people hate to believe it, but evil does exist in the world.
Some people hate to believe it, but evil does exist in the world.
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Brilliant_Rock
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It is a deterrent. How much of a deterrent is debatable. Because it is used so sparingly one can't get a handle on how effective it is. Heck, you might make the case, looking at our burgeoning prison system, that NO punishment is a deterrent.
Another thing that comes as a result of the death penalty is the sense of closure it can bring to survivors and victim's families. The victim often gets no say unless it's a civil penalty. It is odd in a way that the victim has more influence when seeking $$$ than the "payment" for a horrible crime by imprisonment or death.
The offender is also taken out of society, never to kill again. Some offenders get the death penalty when they are caught committing the crime. Our society allows police officers to carry weapons just for this reason. To kill. Harsh but true.
Another thing that comes as a result of the death penalty is the sense of closure it can bring to survivors and victim's families. The victim often gets no say unless it's a civil penalty. It is odd in a way that the victim has more influence when seeking $$$ than the "payment" for a horrible crime by imprisonment or death.
The offender is also taken out of society, never to kill again. Some offenders get the death penalty when they are caught committing the crime. Our society allows police officers to carry weapons just for this reason. To kill. Harsh but true.
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Except for your conclusion, I actually agree with almost everything you wrote above. I, also, feel that some people are above reform. I believe some people have no consciences. I believe that there is evil in the world. I believe Tookie was probably not "a very nice guy" (to put it mildly).
I do not believe in cold blooded killing even of the most sociopathic people, however. I think society must be protected from those sociopaths, but, as Demelza said, I believe that those sociopaths are still human. In other words, I do not need them to reform or to do good or to behave well or to have consciences in order for me to be against killing them.
Deborah
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Mara
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"The offender is also taken out of society, never to kill again."
_____
Not necessarily true...they can go on and kill in prison. IMO the death penalty is not a deterrent to a chrime because if you are in CA you know you can appeal for the next 10 years. I would love to know how many career criminals stopped before a murder and said ''oh well this may get me the death penalty''.
I believe in the death penalty, well actually I would if I believed in our justice system. Too many times we have seen more ''recent evidence'' or new ''DNA technology'' come in and save someone who has been unfairly convicted and prove them innocent. Well too bad because they have spent 8 or 15 years in prison already for a chrime they did not committ. Their life is ruined. Every time I see this in the news, I think well I could never actually support the death penalty because once you are dead, they can''t bring you back to life if they discover a few years later as technology gets better and better that you were innocent of your chrime. Of course the number of actual innocent lives out of all the criminals is probably tiny, but for me that slim hope that someone may be innocent would be enough to make absolutely sure...before ending their life.
On one hand yes it''s a huge drag to have the death penalty here in CA and be paying for all of these people to live in prison and on death row with 1 executive every 10 years or whatever the snails'' rate is...but on the other hand I don''t believe strongly enough in ''justice'' within our system to say that they should all die for their chrimes.
_____
Not necessarily true...they can go on and kill in prison. IMO the death penalty is not a deterrent to a chrime because if you are in CA you know you can appeal for the next 10 years. I would love to know how many career criminals stopped before a murder and said ''oh well this may get me the death penalty''.
I believe in the death penalty, well actually I would if I believed in our justice system. Too many times we have seen more ''recent evidence'' or new ''DNA technology'' come in and save someone who has been unfairly convicted and prove them innocent. Well too bad because they have spent 8 or 15 years in prison already for a chrime they did not committ. Their life is ruined. Every time I see this in the news, I think well I could never actually support the death penalty because once you are dead, they can''t bring you back to life if they discover a few years later as technology gets better and better that you were innocent of your chrime. Of course the number of actual innocent lives out of all the criminals is probably tiny, but for me that slim hope that someone may be innocent would be enough to make absolutely sure...before ending their life.
On one hand yes it''s a huge drag to have the death penalty here in CA and be paying for all of these people to live in prison and on death row with 1 executive every 10 years or whatever the snails'' rate is...but on the other hand I don''t believe strongly enough in ''justice'' within our system to say that they should all die for their chrimes.
Demelza
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Date: 12/23/2005 6:40:44 AM
Author: AGBF
Very eloquently put. You speak for me as well. I have missed you here.
A friend of mine, who was a detective in the police force of a large city in Connecticut, went to law school at night. When he retired from the police force (about two years ago) he was very much in favor of the death penalty. His political beliefs are quite conservative. After some time spent as a lawyer (and not much time, either), he became convinced that the death penalty should be abolished. It wasn't because he felt as Demelza (and I) did, that state sponsored killing was an inherently bad thing. It was seeing the process at work from a different perspective, from seeing how often lawyers were incompetent, judges were ignorant and unfair, juries came in with the wrong verdict. Perry and Demelza are the only people to address this issue so far in this thread.
Deborah
Thanks Deborah!! It is hard to imagine that, even if you are a proponent of the death penalty, that you wouldn't be deeply disturbed by the fact that the justice system is anything but fair and unbiased. From my perspective, however, even if the justice system worked just as it should, I would still be strongly opposed to the death penalty. I think it is cruel, barbaric, and uncivilized. As Amanda said, murder is murder is murder!
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