Living together before marriage

[AmeliaG]

I wonder whether its more presumptious to suspect the man you want to marry to be a wife beater or have a million dollar debts strung out unless you can live with him first to test out his character.

Whoa. Ok...are you just trying to be hateful?

We tend to be very nice in this forum and collectively support one another on our personal decisions whether or not we agree with them. We try to be HELPFUL. We LOVE when people who have been there done that come and offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice, but you aren't being constructive OR helpful.

How about this...you aren't a LIW. You clearly don't seem to have anything nice or helpful to say to us, so why don't you just stay out of our forum?

ETA: Thank you tammy. I always appreciate your RESPECTFUL and HELPFUL posts and advice. I think I can speak for the other LIWs when I say we appreciate your input when you have time to give it!

No I'm not, I'm giving my opinion on what can be a very controversial subject, as are you. You are using words around like hateful and are the one who is questioning why I am posting on this board. You even invited me to stay out of it even though many non LIW ladies post here. That was, shall i say, rude and presumptious?

This is a group of ladies who don't hold back their opinions. Why are you surprised?

 

[audball]

ETA: Thank you tammy. I always appreciate your RESPECTFUL and HELPFUL posts and advice. I think I can speak for the other LIWs when I say we appreciate your input when you have time to give it!

Anytime, Aud! I have to say, this LIW group is one of the best that I've seen. I love how supportive you all are of each other, even when you have different opinions!

We try to be!

 

[AmeliaG]

I wonder whether its more presumptious to suspect the man you want to marry to be a wife beater or have a million dollar debts strung out unless you can live with him first to test out his character.

I feel like the point of that perspective (it's not mine, but this is what I can gather) isn't that the assumption is that the man has these terrible qualities and that the only way to see them is to move in together, it's that it's significantly harder to hide them that way. Especially in situations where women don't want to wait years to see if these traits come to light, it's like a pressure cooker - you find out quickly one way or the other. That's personally not why I would move in with somebody (I'm much more in the "Go with my gut" camp on this issue), but it is definitely how it worked when I lived with my ex. He wasn't a cheater or abusive or in massive debt, but it showed qualities he could have easily kept hidden from me that would have made me miserable if we had gotten married. We were together for 5 years when we moved in together and I hadn't realized he had these character traits, but within a few months of cohabiting, I realized I couldn't marry him.

I think, my point is that living together already is a risk, especially when it comes to physical abusiveness and money matters.

I'm trying to think, why my comment caused such a ruckus. Everybody has a moment where they are unsure whether the other person is who they say they are. So yes, it is an insecurity in ones judgement in human character. But I think everyone goes through that. My question is, is living together the ONLY way to find out for sure? That's not a comforting thought because living together already carries with it considerable risk.

 

[audball]

No I'm not, I'm giving my opinion on what can be a very controversial subject, as are you. You are using words around like hateful and are the one who is questioning why I am posting on this board. You even invited me to stay out of it even though many non LIW ladies post here. That was, shall i say, rude and presumptious?

This is a group of ladies who don't hold back their opinions. Why are you surprised?

Well it certainly seems as if you're coming across hateful and unaccepting of differing opinions. We like to keep our LIW board helpful and supportive and we do not appreciate anyone coming in and being rude. I felt you were being rude in your posts insinuating that we, as adult women, are incapable of making the right decision for ourselves.

We don't hold back our opinions but we are RESPECTFUL of everyone's differences.

 

[boysenberry]

I wonder whether its more presumptious to suspect the man you want to marry to be a wife beater or have a million dollar debts strung out unless you can live with him first to test out his character.

I feel like the point of that perspective (it's not mine, but this is what I can gather) isn't that the assumption is that the man has these terrible qualities and that the only way to see them is to move in together, it's that it's significantly harder to hide them that way. Especially in situations where women don't want to wait years to see if these traits come to light, it's like a pressure cooker - you find out quickly one way or the other. That's personally not why I would move in with somebody (I'm much more in the "Go with my gut" camp on this issue), but it is definitely how it worked when I lived with my ex. He wasn't a cheater or abusive or in massive debt, but it showed qualities he could have easily kept hidden from me that would have made me miserable if we had gotten married. We were together for 5 years when we moved in together and I hadn't realized he had these character traits, but within a few months of cohabiting, I realized I couldn't marry him.

I think, my point is that living together already is a risk, especially when it comes to physical abusiveness and money matters.

I'm trying to think, why my comment caused such a ruckus. Everybody has a moment where they are unsure whether the other person is who they say they are. So yes, it is an insecurity in ones judgement in human character. But I think everyone goes through that. My question is, is living together the ONLY way to find out for sure? That's not a comforting thought because living together already carries with it considerable risk.

I don't think anyone said it was the ONLY way to find out - we've all reiterated how everyone has different relationships and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. And furthermore, a decision to live together doesn't have to be related to a quest to find out your SO's "true character" - that is just for SOME people who thought it was beneficial in evaluating their relationship. Personally the biggest factor in my decision to move in with SO was the fact that I love spending time with him. Of course I don't need to live with him to do that, and I'm not suggesting other people do it for that reason, but we're all relating personal experiences here...

 

[audball]

I think, my point is that living together already is a risk, especially when it comes to physical abusiveness and money matters.

I'm trying to think, why my comment caused such a ruckus. Everybody has a moment where they are unsure whether the other person is who they say they are. So yes, it is an insecurity in ones judgement in human character. But I think everyone goes through that. My question is, is living together the ONLY way to find out for sure? That's not a comforting thought because living together already carries with it considerable risk.

I agree. Living together is a risk. I think your comment caused such a stir because you write it in a way that makes it sound like we're making the wrong choice. That's not cool. For some people, it is the right choice. Others, maybe not. We've tried to keep this controversial topic civil.

To answer your question, ABSOLUTELY NOT. Living together is definitely not the only way to find out of someone is right for you. There are many ways, living together is one of them that works for some couples.

 

[audball]

I don't think anyone said it was the ONLY way to find out - we've all reiterated how everyone has different relationships and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. And furthermore, a decision to live together doesn't have to be related to a quest to find out your SO's "true character" - that is just for SOME people who thought it was beneficial in evaluating their relationship. Personally the biggest factor in my decision to move in with SO was the fact that I love spending time with him. Of course I don't need to live with him to do that, and I'm not suggesting other people do it for that reason, but we're all relating personal experiences here...

Well said boysenberry.

 

[madelise]

Whoa, what the heck happened in here? We have a great group of eclectic LIWs, non-listed LIWs, and post-LIWs that each offer their own diverse opinions. Can we stay supportive, objecting with material, and not just be testy for the sake of being testy?

 

[princesss]

Whoa, what the heck happened in here? We have a great group of eclectic LIWs, non-listed LIWs, and post-LIWs that each offer their own diverse opinions. Can we stay supportive, objecting with material, and not just be testy for the sake of being testy?

I think we have, if you keep reading. And I will say I was testy, but I think it's valid and I don't think you need to always respond with "material" immediately to have a valid point about how something is phrased.

ETA: Unless you're not talking to me, in which case, yeah! What you said! ;p

 

[audball]

I think princesss is right...I think we came back full circle. We just want to harbor a happy, positive, supportive environment. Topics like this always have some testy moments, but if we all try to respectful of differences, we'll be fine.

 

[madelise]

Whoa, what the heck happened in here? We have a great group of eclectic LIWs, non-listed LIWs, and post-LIWs that each offer their own diverse opinions. Can we stay supportive, objecting with material, and not just be testy for the sake of being testy?

I think we have, if you keep reading. And I will say I was testy, but I think it's valid and I don't think you need to always respond with "material" immediately to have a valid point about how something is phrased.

ETA: Unless you're not talking to me, in which case, yeah! What you said! ;p

I tried sending in my comment multiple times but PS was shutting it out. I think I wrote it about half an hour before it posted. Ya'll kept posting, and pushing my post away!!! Which was cool.. I had Footloose on in the background


Big group hug?

Truth be told, I'm just shocked that drama happens when it wasn't my fault I'm usually the one running my mouth full of oopsies.

 

[AmeliaG]

I think, my point is that living together already is a risk, especially when it comes to physical abusiveness and money matters.

I'm trying to think, why my comment caused such a ruckus. Everybody has a moment where they are unsure whether the other person is who they say they are. So yes, it is an insecurity in ones judgement in human character. But I think everyone goes through that. My question is, is living together the ONLY way to find out for sure? That's not a comforting thought because living together already carries with it considerable risk.

I agree. Living together is a risk. I think your comment caused such a stir because you write it in a way that makes it sound like we're making the wrong choice. That's not cool. For some people, it is the right choice. Others, maybe not. We've tried to keep this controversial topic civil.

To answer your question, ABSOLUTELY NOT. Living together is definitely not the only way to find out of someone is right for you. There are many ways, living together is one of them that works for some couples.

Well if it helps audball, I believe you can find the right one for the wrong reasons but he's still the right one. At least my brother did. I think what really matters is how happy you end up with him, not how you got there. If you know you made the right decision, what do you care what other people think?

 

[audball]

Well if it helps audball, I believe you can find the right one for the wrong reasons but he's still the right one. At least my brother did. I think what really matters is how happy you end up with him, not how you got there. If you know you made the right decision, what do you care what other people think?

I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of my relationship. I've been through enough wrong to know it's right.

I spoke out only for the purposes of trying to mitigate negativity. I took your first response that any woman who lives with her SO before marriage is sad and insecure. Well, these ladies here are my friends, all of them. Most of them have made that choice (including myself) and I'm protective of my friends. I'm all for differing opinions, but I don't like when the opposite side gets presented in a way that makes it the "wrong" choice instead of a different one.

 

[maccers]

Just getting caught up on this thread. I see it took a bit of a strange turn but I'm glad to see it's back on track.

I'm probably a bit of an anomaly. I'm 35 and I've just moved in with my bf for the first time, ever. In fact, we're both 35 and living with someone is a first for both of us. I've dated a lot, I've had a lot of boyfriends but I've also always had a STRONG instinct when I 'know' something isn't right for me. Fortunately I never chose to move in with someone in the hopes that living together would make things better. It's been a tough journey sometimes, to be 35, never married, no kids and, sometimes, no boyfriend. But I tell you, all those times have lead me to where I am now and why I know that my BF is the right guy. I get emotional thinking about it, I've cried so many tears over the years about not being married, no having kids yet...it's taken a lot of time to get more relaxed and accepting of myself. I think finally relaxing actually helped me find my BF - I concentrated on what I needed and wanted in a relationship. ANYWAY, I'm getting myself off-track...How I knew that I wanted to live with BF is that I loved him, I knew 100% he loved me, we wanted to spend our lives together and that we'd be making it more permanent in the near future.

 

[CaprineSun]

Maccers, I'm so happy to read your post about finding true love no matter what the age. I felt just like you (teary eyed & all) when I first met my SO until this day. Good things surely do come to those who wait. Congrats and many more blessings to come!

In regards to the rest of this thread: Because this is a testy topic, I initially kept my response quick & brief, but I felt the need to further clarify my stance after some posts were made.
While I may disagree with the majority here, I do not look down on you ladies. Just the same, I wanted to be clear assumptions weren't being made about my choice as well. Everyone here is smart enough to know what is right for them, and if by chance not, life lessons will teach us -- I know it did for me!

I also want to say I appreciate the other point of view that living together puts you in sort of a pressure cooker. Great analogy!

 

[AmeliaG]

I spoke out only for the purposes of trying to mitigate negativity. I took your first response that any woman who lives with her SO before marriage is sad and insecure. Well, these ladies here are my friends, all of them. Most of them have made that choice (including myself) and I'm protective of my friends. I'm all for differing opinions, but I don't like when the opposite side gets presented in a way that makes it the "wrong" choice instead of a different one.

Hell no, audball you were projecting. That's not what I wrote. I've lived with a guy before marriage and so did my siblings. I think you got over zealous in protecting your friends without actually reading the posts.

No matter, it is a topic with strongly held and often conflicting beliefs. I'm glad that CaprineSun mentioned that religion is not the only valid reason for couples to decide not to live together. That often gets overlooked by a lot of people.

 

[tammy77]

From the sound of it, it seems some women are not confident of their ability to judge the character of the man they want to marry without living with him. I think it's sad and a little bit pointless. Abusive, condescending, irresponsible behavior has the same feel to it whether it is behind closed doors or in front of them.

A man that is irresponsible with money or who is controlling or abusive can't hide his stripes forever even if you don't move in with him.

I'm 99% sure that the bolded part came across wrong if you didn't mean to say that some women on this thread sound like they lack confidence and it's sad/pointless that they chose to live with their SO before marriage. Since that wasn't your intention, it seems like it was all just a misunderstanding! These things do happen, especially when we can't see the person's body language or hear their tone of voice.

 

[madelise]

..I didn't get my hug.

 

[pandabee]

..I didn't get my hug.

((hug))

While we are obviously not going to agree, I think we need to PLEASE stop offering our opinions in a judgmental way that implies the other viewpoint is "wrong" or "pointless." We can certainly discuss this very interesting topic like adults without passing judgement on the other point of view. Let's keep our minds open as it has been said many times before on this thread that what works for you DOES NOT mean it works for everyone else in the whole world.

 

[audball]

From the sound of it, it seems some women are not confident of their ability to judge the character of the man they want to marry without living with him. I think it's sad and a little bit pointless. Abusive, condescending, irresponsible behavior has the same feel to it whether it is behind closed doors or in front of them.

A man that is irresponsible with money or who is controlling or abusive can't hide his stripes forever even if you don't move in with him.

I'm 99% sure that the bolded part came across wrong if you didn't mean to say that some women on this thread sound like they lack confidence and it's sad/pointless that they chose to live with their SO before marriage. Since that wasn't your intention, it seems like it was all just a misunderstanding! These things do happen, especially when we can't see the person's body language or hear their tone of voice.

Exactly. Maybe I misinterpreted, but I'm clearly not the only one who took what you said that way I did. It seems everyone is trying to be nice now and offer differing opinions. I've already stated mine and I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[audball]

..I didn't get my hug.

HUGS!!

 

[audball]

Maccers, I'm so happy to read your post about finding true love no matter what the age. I felt just like you (teary eyed & all) when I first met my SO until this day. Good things surely do come to those who wait. Congrats and many more blessings to come!

In regards to the rest of this thread: Because this is a testy topic, I initially kept my response quick & brief, but I felt the need to further clarify my stance after some posts were made.
While I may disagree with the majority here, I do not look down on you ladies. Just the same, I wanted to be clear assumptions weren't being made about my choice as well. Everyone here is smart enough to know what is right for them, and if by chance not, life lessons will teach us -- I know it did for me!

I also want to say I appreciate the other point of view that living together puts you in sort of a pressure cooker. Great analogy!

Well said.

 

[gem_anemone]

I wonder whether its more presumptious to suspect the man you want to marry to be a wife beater or have a million dollar debts strung out unless you can live with him first to test out his character.

I feel like the point of that perspective (it's not mine, but this is what I can gather) isn't that the assumption is that the man has these terrible qualities and that the only way to see them is to move in together, it's that it's significantly harder to hide them that way. Especially in situations where women don't want to wait years to see if these traits come to light, it's like a pressure cooker - you find out quickly one way or the other. That's personally not why I would move in with somebody (I'm much more in the "Go with my gut" camp on this issue), but it is definitely how it worked when I lived with my ex. He wasn't a cheater or abusive or in massive debt, but it showed qualities he could have easily kept hidden from me that would have made me miserable if we had gotten married. We were together for 5 years when we moved in together and I hadn't realized he had these character traits, but within a few months of cohabiting, I realized I couldn't marry him.

Thank you princess for explaining my thoughts! You may have experienced what I was trying to say can happen. Not that it always does, but that it can...

To me moving in with my SO was less of a risk than legally binding myself to him would have been. However, since that opinion left me open for criticism regarding my innate ability to choose a proper mate; I regret sharing my thoughts. One would certainly hope they are not marrying a closet cross-dresser or a serial killer BUT I KNOW AND HAVE READ OF THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPENING TO PEOPLE. And if you think it can't happen to just anyone and that it only happens to oblivious, insecure people then you must be a very judgmental person.

Living with my SO was what WE chose to do to progress our relationship. We had already verbally made the decision to get married eventually, yet we weren't in a position to buy a ring or have a wedding. Our goal was to start our lives together and have a stable living situation together and THEN splurge on fine jewelry and a big party. What we did was practical. It wasn't sad and it wasn't pointless. I wasn't testing him to see if he was a financial burden or a wife beater etc. But again, IF there were signs I would have seen them THEN and not after I would have been required to pay a lot of money and wait a long time to permanently separate myself from him if it had come to that.

I think at this point I have contributed enough to this thread. Thanks to all for the respectful differing perspectives on this subject. I found it very interesting to see where everyone was coming from. I give no thanks for the judgmental comments.

 

[audball]

I wonder whether its more presumptious to suspect the man you want to marry to be a wife beater or have a million dollar debts strung out unless you can live with him first to test out his character.

I feel like the point of that perspective (it's not mine, but this is what I can gather) isn't that the assumption is that the man has these terrible qualities and that the only way to see them is to move in together, it's that it's significantly harder to hide them that way. Especially in situations where women don't want to wait years to see if these traits come to light, it's like a pressure cooker - you find out quickly one way or the other. That's personally not why I would move in with somebody (I'm much more in the "Go with my gut" camp on this issue), but it is definitely how it worked when I lived with my ex. He wasn't a cheater or abusive or in massive debt, but it showed qualities he could have easily kept hidden from me that would have made me miserable if we had gotten married. We were together for 5 years when we moved in together and I hadn't realized he had these character traits, but within a few months of cohabiting, I realized I couldn't marry him.

Thank you princess for explaining my thoughts! You may have experienced what I was trying to say can happen. Not that it always does, but that it can...

To me moving in with my SO was less of a risk than legally binding myself to him would have been. However, since that opinion left me open for criticism regarding my innate ability to choose a proper mate; I regret sharing my thoughts. One would certainly hope they are not marrying a closet cross-dresser or a serial killer BUT I KNOW AND HAVE READ OF THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPENING TO PEOPLE. And if you think it can't happen to just anyone and that it only happens to oblivious, insecure people then you must be a very judgmental person.

Living with my SO was what WE chose to do to progress our relationship. We had already verbally made the decision to get married eventually, yet we weren't in a position to buy a ring or have a wedding. Our goal was to start our lives together and have a stable living situation together and THEN splurge on fine jewelry and a big party. What we did was practical. It wasn't sad and it wasn't pointless. I wasn't testing him to see if he was a financial burden or a wife beater etc. But again, IF there were signs I would have seen them THEN and not after I would have been required to pay a lot of money and wait a long time to permanently separate myself from him if it had come to that.

I think at this point I have contributed enough to this thread. Thanks to all for the respectful differing perspectives on this subject. I found it very interesting to see where everyone was coming from. I give no thanks for the judgmental comments.

You said everything I was trying to articulate as well. I think I will be bowing out of this thread now too.

 

[cygnet]

Whoah, drama happened. I haven't gone back and read it all yet. But i'll just respond to the topic, since I haven't posted in this thread yet.

G and I have been living together officially since about 5 months into our relationship. We like spending time with each other, so we were always together anyway, though the main impetus for making the jump was financial reasons. I was a dead broke college student living in a crummy Seattle apartment with two roommates, no privacy, and in a bad neighborhood. He lived alone in a nice apartment in Bellevue. I ended up spending 5+ nights a week with him, and it was getting tiring having to spend hours bussing from school to my place to his place, back to school, so on. At that point he had already told me that he could picture me being his future wife, so although the motivation for moving was me not wanting to waste what little money I had left to pay rent on an apartment I didn't live in, we both felt it would be a healthy step for our relationship.

I don't really see moving in as a step to discover abusive/terrible personality traits, that's not a reason I would choose to move in with someone. If I were involved with someone who I suspected wouldn't treat me or others right, I wouldn't be in that relationship for much longer. But I see it this way: if I am going to be living with the man after marrying him, I may as well make sure I like living with him before we go through all the effort to get married.

 

[cygnet]

I just like to mention that I don't think it's fair to trivialize the "surprises" that you may discover about your SO when moving in together because they may not be so innocent as toilet or laundry related. They can certainly be legitimate deal-breakers including things like mental health issues, excessive p0rn consumption, excessive drinking, financial issues, being abusive and other things that the girlfriend/wife may not be aware of before moving in especially if you are not communicating on finances or only spending weekends together. The only reason I bring this up is some things like this have happened to a friend of mine. I also had experience with an ex bf who exhibited a trait or two from that list, but lucky for me I discovered it before taking the relationship to the next level. In a perfect world these are things that you would assume you would find out about your SO before getting engaged or married, but unfortunately some men are able to hide things like this from girlfriends for a long time and only when they are living together do they find out. Of course things like toilet seats and dishes can be worked out, but there are worse offenses. Maybe they only happen in relationships that are rushed, or maybe the guy does a 180, but it does happen that worse things can be revealed after co-habitating.

Okay, after having read that quote, I thought I'd comment since I'm one of the people who can speak from experience about this here. As it happens, after we moved in together, I found out that G had one of the aforementioned issues (or had developed it during the course of the year) and we fought about it. It was a big problem, something over which I considered leaving him. BUT I was happy that I ended up being able to discover this problem, because it gave us an opportunity to work on our relationship and improve ourselves as people. Instead of leaving him, I decided to stick around and we worked it out. Together we addressed the issue in his life that was causing him to have this problem. We worked it out, and he doesn't have this issue anymore, nor does he struggle with the root of the problem any longer (to be fair, we have worked on ME too, I'm definitely not any more perfect than he is!). I feel that our relationship is stronger than it was before because we've had the opportunity to face some big issues head-on and they brought us closer together. After knowing that he is willing to work with me on relationship and personal issues and keep improving himself as a person, I am even more confident that he is the person I want to marry.

Just thought I'd add that finding out about an unpleasant "surprise" doesn't always have to be a death sentence, and sometimes it can be a blessing in disguise.

 

[madelise]

Just thought I'd add that finding out about an unpleasant "surprise" doesn't always have to be a death sentence, and sometimes it can be a blessing in disguise.

 

[advokait]

I wonder whether its more presumptious to suspect the man you want to marry to be a wife beater or have a million dollar debts strung out unless you can live with him first to test out his character.

I feel like the point of that perspective (it's not mine, but this is what I can gather) isn't that the assumption is that the man has these terrible qualities and that the only way to see them is to move in together, it's that it's significantly harder to hide them that way. Especially in situations where women don't want to wait years to see if these traits come to light, it's like a pressure cooker - you find out quickly one way or the other. That's personally not why I would move in with somebody (I'm much more in the "Go with my gut" camp on this issue), but it is definitely how it worked when I lived with my ex. He wasn't a cheater or abusive or in massive debt, but it showed qualities he could have easily kept hidden from me that would have made me miserable if we had gotten married. We were together for 5 years when we moved in together and I hadn't realized he had these character traits, but within a few months of cohabiting, I realized I couldn't marry him.

Thank you princess for explaining my thoughts! You may have experienced what I was trying to say can happen. Not that it always does, but that it can...

To me moving in with my SO was less of a risk than legally binding myself to him would have been. However, since that opinion left me open for criticism regarding my innate ability to choose a proper mate; I regret sharing my thoughts. One would certainly hope they are not marrying a closet cross-dresser or a serial killer BUT I KNOW AND HAVE READ OF THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPENING TO PEOPLE. And if you think it can't happen to just anyone and that it only happens to oblivious, insecure people then you must be a very judgmental person.

Living with my SO was what WE chose to do to progress our relationship. We had already verbally made the decision to get married eventually, yet we weren't in a position to buy a ring or have a wedding. Our goal was to start our lives together and have a stable living situation together and THEN splurge on fine jewelry and a big party. What we did was practical. It wasn't sad and it wasn't pointless. I wasn't testing him to see if he was a financial burden or a wife beater etc. But again, IF there were signs I would have seen them THEN and not after I would have been required to pay a lot of money and wait a long time to permanently separate myself from him if it had come to that.

I think at this point I have contributed enough to this thread. Thanks to all for the respectful differing perspectives on this subject. I found it very interesting to see where everyone was coming from. I give no thanks for the judgmental comments.

VERY well put^