Mandarin Garnets Drying Up

[MJO]

Just to let all you Mandarin Garnet fans out there that the supply is drying up. 18 months to a year ago they were everywhere. I bought some great large stones for a very good price. I was just told by some people looking for them that clean good colored stones over 20cts are now selling for thousands/ct. Smaller stones are also getting more scarce. Get them now while you can.

 

[MINE!!]

MMMM MJO This kinda makes me sad... they are so beautiful........

 

[MINE!!]

well..kinda.. then I know that my ring will be even more rare....

 

[Sagebrush]

MJO,
You are quite right. But, as we know this is exactly how the the cycle works with rare gems. I have seen it happen over and over and talk about it in my book. Nigerian Spessartite is a textbook case.

Ten years ago large fine stones were not available at any price. Total production from Little Three Mine in Ramona California which at that time was the only source of this quality totaled perhaps 10,000 carats in the life of the mine. Five years ago the Nigerian material hits the market like a bomb. The stuff is everywhere. Nigerians all over the place. The market is overwhelmed and prices drop. Bought a parcel of rough for a ridiculous price. Availability stimulates interest, interest becomes demand. Supply decreases, prices rise! It happened with color change sapphire, paraiba tourmaline, color change garnet.

Whats next?, Nigerian red tourmaline is, I think, getting scarce as well. I remember looking for red tourmaline in Brazil in the 80s. Eye clean stones were very rare just about unobtainable! About the same time the Spessartite hit, the red tourmaline became available in large parcels as well.

The lesson learned? If its available don't wait! It usually takes about a year for prices to rise.

 

[partgypsy]

This has happened to me, and I''ve kicked myself. About 10 years ago I saw a pair of black opal earrings for about $40, but was a poor graduate student and so didn''t buy them. I kept thinking about them, and a year or so ago decided to get them but now black opal is much more expensive!

I could swear that 10 years ago that emerald was more reasonably priced (could get pretty nice looking stones for not as much money) as now

Kunzite used to be kind of rare but now seems relatively abundant, and the prices lower. Is there a point where kunzite prices will go up again?

 

[Sagebrush]

Gypsy,

The cycle works "bust to boom" with rare stones. When a new gem or new location is found often the supply bubble temporarily overwhelms the market. Markets rely on supply and demand. Translated into the world of rare gems this means that you can only have a market of there is supply, no supply, no market. Five or six years ago there was essentially no spessartite market. Hardly anyone had ever heard of the stone. Why, because there was not enough material to "make a market". Once people saw examples of the gem (and it really is a knock out looking gem due to its high refractivity and pure orange color), demand grew rapidly while the supply dried up.

Kunzite might be another case I am not sure as I do not follow the gem. Too fragile, drop a kunzite and you have many little kunzites.

By the way, there is still material in the market, higher prices?, yes but wait until next year....

 

[widget]

OK....Mandarin garnet, Nigerian red tourmaline....any other "hot tips"???

What about demantoid garnets? I seem to remember when the ONLY way to see them was in antique jewelry...now they''re everywhere...TV, etc...

Also...is it my imagination, or are there more larger (3ct+) tsavorites around?

widget

 

[MJO]

Richard,

I hope you don''t mind but I quoted a paragraph in your book in the topic "Green Diamonds?". This single paragraph has save and made me more money than any other advise in the stone trade. Thank you.

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/8/2005 9:33:17 AM
Author: widget
OK....Mandarin garnet, Nigerian red tourmaline....any other ''hot tips''???

What about demantoid garnets? I seem to remember when the ONLY way to see them was in antique jewelry...now they''re everywhere...TV, etc...

Also...is it my imagination, or are there more larger (3ct+) tsavorites around?

widget

There are/were more 3ct+ tsavorites around but look to how clean and what color/tone they are. About a 18 - 24 months ago there was a rather large pocket hit of clean larger tsavorites. This was in Tanzania and the stones were large and clean but of a more yellow lighter tone than the Kenyan material. This material went through the pipeline and all came out at the same time about a year later. There were alot of clean 1ct stones and quite a few 3ct+ stones available which lowered the prices on all tsavorite even the Darker Bluer Kenyan stones. I bought up the Kenyan stones. (30) 1ct+ stones for about $100/ct and (10) 3ct+ stones for $300 - $450/ct. There is no more good rough available. Every cutter I talked to told me this. What rough there is is more than what I paid for finished stones and there is no guarrenties and to how they will turn out. I do have gem dealers I know that know my inventory and ask me for stones I will part with. Some of those are the ones you are seeing now.

Also 2-3 years ago they found the original Russian Demantoid mine. They hit a new pocket/vien. The best stones were bought up first and the rest is commerically sold. Also since the market is now used to demantoid they are starting to sell the Namibian and newer Iranian and Pakastan stones that were not selling before. As Richard W. Wise states, buy the best color and cut. Don''t worry about origin.

There is and has been for over a year no Nigerian Rubellite rough around. Those stones have gone up significantly in price. Just look for stones that don''t shift to brown in incandecent lighting.

I beleive bright blue tourmaline is next. Last year there was alot around and there is still a significant amount on the market. The The biggest and best Nigerian, Brazilian, Afghan and Namibian stones are beautiful.

 

[Sagebrush]

Date: 5/8/2005 10:23:18 AM
Author: MJO
Richard,


I hope you don''t mind but I quoted a paragraph in your book in the topic ''Green Diamonds?''. This single paragraph has save and made me more money than any other advise in the stone trade. Thank you.

MJO,
I don''t mind at all your quoting from my book, feel free at any time. it is always flattering to a writer to be read and payed attention to, we write after all with the idea that we have something important to say. Now hopefully the readers of this thread will pay attention to what you have said, I certainly will.

 

[widget]

Could either of you gentlemen (I presume MJO is a gentleman

) recommend any online sources of current gem/mining news?

I already subscribe to National Gemstone''s "Gem Forecaster" newsletter, and to Palagem''s newsletters....are there any more?

Ok Ok!!! I''m heading over to Amazon right now to order Richard''s book!!

widget

 

[mogok]

Well I agree with Richard vision of the thing, I have witnessed this in Burma when I was studying there. At that time I could buy fine red spinels and blue moonstones for less than 5 times the prices I would have to pay now for the same stone...
When I think back to some of the stones I found at this time too expensive... Damn!
The thing is simple: Buy what is available, nice and cheap... Origin is not important if you focus on nice stones, even if whatever I think its nice to have some info to romance the stone later may be, but personally I like to know where my stones are coming from!
I have a story about that, I was told it is a true one, but I dont have yet confirmation:

Just like with a girl... I was told in Basel recently this story about a famous gemologist doing a presentation about origin determination: His first slide was a beautiful metis girl. A question was written on the slide: "Who really cares where she is coming from"
Everybody was stoned... The gemologist had a very good point... Damn...
Then an Indian guy at the first rank asked to say something. He said: "For a guy just willing to spend one night with the girl, may be origin is not a concern... but if I want to marry her I will like to learn more about where she is coming from. "

The presentation of the gemologist was just shoot down!

I think I''m just this kind of guy that love to marry with his stones! LoL

Anyway... Quality and origin are linked for gems in my opinion as for wine. If I find something good I''m happy to know where the wonder is coming from...

But sure: I prefer a beauty from an unknown place that a "fish tank stone" from a famous mine!

All the best,

 

[rubydick]

Date: 5/8/2005 11:54:35 AM
Author: widget
Could either of you gentlemen (I presume MJO is a gentleman

) recommend any online sources of current gem/mining news?

I already subscribe to National Gemstone''s ''Gem Forecaster'' newsletter, and to Palagem''s newsletters....are there any more?

Ok Ok!!! I''m heading over to Amazon right now to order Richard''s book!!

widget

The AGTA Gemological Testing Center is now issuing regular news features. Sign up at this link:

AGTA GTC E-Mail Alerts

 

[Sagebrush]

Vincent,

The dealer''s response was facile and cute but the analogy does not hold. Gems are all about beauty an ounce for ounce the most expensive things on earth. What else would prompt anyone to spend hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars on a gem? They contain absolutely no nutritional value. Why do we value Burma rubies? Because, generally speaking Burma is better, that is, the best of the Burma-type is the most beautiful. However, we are interested in gems not generalizations and all generalizations are false. Note I say Burma-type (for the benefit of forum readers) because visually identical rubies are found in geologically similar deposits throughout the region.

So, if beauty is, as I contend, the ultimate criterion why do consumers regularly pay high prices for Burmese aquarium gravel? Because country of origin is a crutch. Its easier than taking the time to learn about the product. Its like the guy who learns two of the four C''s of diamond grading and figurs he can outfox the experts. He goes from store to store or site to site seeking the lowest price on that G VS2. What does he get? A G VS2 (if he is lucky or gets a cert) and the worst possible cut for the highest price.

So whats a consumer to do. Well, if all he/she wants is a fine ruby and he/she is too busy or otherwise not inclined to do the homework then she/he should find a dealer that he can put his trust in. In the end it comes down to trust. When someone buys from me they are not only buying a gem they are buying my eye. Does that cost more? Sometimes! Remember the three-legged dog.

 

[mogok]

Hi Richard,

Yes may be the analogy does not hold, but I believe that in these matters its a question of personal opinions. To come back to the story an other one could say: Well, if the wife has really all the quality to fit to you, well may be she can have some secrets!

Whatever Its just a funny story.

I like your crutch argument and you know that I agree also on the dealer eye one... But well seriously the point with color stones is that somewhere their value cannot be that linked to rules. Sure you are right, they are useless object of desire. Thats the point, their value is in what we put in them:

You know that I dont really mind where a beautiful gem is from regarding to its value: it can be Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese, Kenyan, French, Italian, American or whatever. It does not really matters as long as I know (or I feel I know...) where it is coming from. It is that simple. If I dont know where it is from I will search for that information, and then it will cost me time and may be money and at the end I will still not be sure about it as origin determination is question of opinion more than mathematics.

It is the same with the clarity, I dont like gems without inclusions...
Probably I''m a special case, I agree with that, but well gems are such personal things that I think that everybody is somewhere a special case. Some might consider them for their symbolic value, for the attention the gem will bring to them, for the rank or the face they will get showing them, for their possible spiritual, healing, magical, religious powers... Why not? Others just for the color, other for their "purity", their perfection, other reasons than the diamond 4Cs...
Well who knows why another one will buy this or that gem?
Besides the standart quality factors that are the 4C or the 5C with your "crystal" or the Burmese "luster" there are so many other factors that affect the value of a given stone... personal factors!

On my side, it is simple: With gems as with a girlfriend, I like to be able to have some communication. I love to learn from my gems...
A beautiful gem without inclusions and without origin is to me like a wife that cannot communicate with you... a "decorative wife" , a "belle plante" as we say in France: Boring...

I''m ready to pay more for a fine gem with an origin and some inclusions as for the same beauty with the naked eye, the gem is more rich, more tale telling, more special. It has some intimate beautiful secrets that I will be able to see and to understand using a microscope. And well as it has also some inclusion that most dealers dont appreciate, the inclusions will also help me to get a better price...

Color stones are not diamonds, They dont have to be "flawless" and without any origin.
Origin and inclusions gives to a fine gemstone some taste, some personality... I will even go to say a kind of soul... To me if gives it more value...

But may be my "travelling gemologist" mind is twisted by the fact that when I see some nice gems I wonder immedialty if I could go to see how does the places they are coming from looks... and I want to take a microscope to see their internal world.

Well Its getting early and I think that tomorrow when I will read again this post I will tell myself that I should better sleep! LoL...

All the best,

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I regard origin as part of the "romance" of the stone, and many people are willing to pay more for the romance they desire.

Canadian origin diamonds are a good example. To many people, they represent a more "pure" product in that they escape the "blood diamond" stigma. They don't look any better, yet many consumers are willing to pay more for them because of their origin.

Some localities have history to them which intrigues the buyer. Colombian emeralds can be tracked back to a sophisticated ancient civilization which existed before the brutal onslaught of the Spanish conquistadors. Wars have been fought over Golconda diamonds from India. Russian alexandrite evokes memory of the Tsar Nicolas and his son Alexander. Many Americans would prefer to own a turquoise of Southwestern origin rather than Iranian.

As long as origin (and non-treatment) can be determined, it will play a part in the pricing structure of the market and decision making process of consumers.

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/8/2005 7

8:22 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I regard origin as part of the ''romance'' of the stone, and many people are willing to pay more for the romance they desire.

Canadian origin diamonds are a good example. To many people, they represent a more ''pure'' product in that they escape the ''blood diamond'' stigma. They don''t look any better, yet many consumers are willing to pay more for them because of their origin.

Some localities have history to them which intrigues the buyer. Colombian emeralds can be tracked back to a sophisticated ancient civilization which existed before the brutal onslaught of the Spanish conquistadors. Wars have been fought over Golconda diamonds from India. Russian alexandrite evokes memory of the Tsar Nicolas and his son. Many Americans would prefer to own a turquoise of Southwestern origin rather than Iranian.

As long as origin (and non-treatment) can be determined, it will play a part in the pricing structure of the market and decision making process of consumers.

Richard and Vincent.

I partially agree with you. I beleive it was in Richards Wise''s book I read this and also know it to be true that peoples perceptions take awhile to change. When Kashmir Sapphire first came out it was concidered inferior to the Burma Gems. But as time went past and people accepted the stones for what they were and not where they came from, they were held in higher regard than their predicessors. This was because of the look and beauty of the gem not a new concept on the origin. Romance is great, but nostalga changes from generation to generation. During my childhood I looked back to the 60''s with the Beach Boys and Jan and Dean. The shows I watched were leave it to Beavor and then the Brady Bunch. My children look back nostolgicly to Teenage Mutant Ninga Turtles. Time passes and perceptions change with time colors go in and out of style but in the long run the color and brilliance of the stone along with it''s natural status is what will stand the test of time.

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/8/2005 11:54:35 AM
Author: widget
Could either of you gentlemen (I presume MJO is a gentleman

) recommend any online sources of current gem/mining news?

I already subscribe to National Gemstone''s ''Gem Forecaster'' newsletter, and to Palagem''s newsletters....are there any more?

Ok Ok!!! I''m heading over to Amazon right now to order Richard''s book!!

widget

I think I''m a gentleman but my wife begs to differ. I read everything I can on the net and then talk to gem cutters and rough sellers I know. They are the first to see that the supply of rough is drying up. The the remaining stones in the pipeline are sold and there is nothing to replace them with. The prices of those remaining are raised but this is ussually the worst of the stock. I have noticed that cutters cut their best rough first to sell them fast and get money to buy more rough to cut. Those are the best stones to buy since they are the best and the cheapest per carat in the long run.

 

[mogok]

I partially agree with you. I beleive it was in Richards Wise''s book I read this and also know it to be true that peoples perceptions take awhile to change. When Kashmir Sapphire first came out it was concidered inferior to the Burma Gems. But as time went past and people accepted the stones for what they were and not where they came from, they were held in higher regard than their predicessors. This was because of the look and beauty of the gem not a new concept on the origin. Romance is great, but nostalga changes from generation to generation Time passes and perceptions change with time colors go in and out of style but in the long run the color and brilliance of the stone along with it''s natural status is what will stand the test of time.

I wake up and feel better... If I did not read again my last post I cannot agree more with these words from MJO... Times passes and perceptions changes, Origin is not a quality itself: its a romancing factor, but it is also somewhere a value factor as when in each book on gems you can read that the best rubies comes from Mogok in Burma, then these stones are easier to sell than their african counterpart as if you promote your stone as African the customer that did not took the time to do serious homework will have this small feeling that he could have a better gem if he buys a Burmese... Many people are affraid to use their common sense and their feelings and they prefer in such matters where large amount of money are involved and where they have no real idea on the subject to follow what others have said... And books are seen as very good and reliable references. Somewhere it is the same concept as the dealer eye from Richard Wise but the problem are that books are not really updated rapidly and the also that in the trade the gemological education of the sales people is limited, and I''ve heard so many time from such people that rubies are best if they are from Burma! and thats a good thing as they have many exceptional burmese beauties...
Finally the fact is that a gem from a traditional origin has a higher immediate value than a gem from an origin unknown to the public... But time passes and may be the new origin will become a sales argument and finally its gems will get higher value.
This commercial aspect sof origin is somewhere stupid and this is not what makes me wake up on this subject...

I''m interested in origin as origin is for me landscapes, people, culture, civilisation, colors, temperature,... As the first country I visited in Asia was Vietnam, I had from that time a high regard with Vietnam stones. As I studied gemology in Burma I love Burmese gems. As I work in Thailand and I''m happy with that I''ve many sympathy for Thai rubies and sapphires and so on.
Origin is for me an affective link between myself and the gems I look at... not really a quality factor as this aspect is not really interesting me as I dont have any money to look at gem for investment.

But each one of course his idea on the subjet.

Gems are so personal items...

All the best,

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/8/2005 10

3:39 PM
Author: Vincent Pardieu also known as ''Mogok''

I partially agree with you. I beleive it was in Richards Wise''s book I read this and also know it to be true that peoples perceptions take awhile to change. When Kashmir Sapphire first came out it was concidered inferior to the Burma Gems. But as time went past and people accepted the stones for what they were and not where they came from, they were held in higher regard than their predicessors. This was because of the look and beauty of the gem not a new concept on the origin. Romance is great, but nostalga changes from generation to generation Time passes and perceptions change with time colors go in and out of style but in the long run the color and brilliance of the stone along with it''s natural status is what will stand the test of time.

I wake up and feel better... If I did not read again my last post I cannot agree more with these words from MJO... Times passes and perceptions changes, Origin is not a quality itself: its a romancing factor, but it is also somewhere a value factor as when in each book on gems you can read that the best rubies comes from Mogok in Burma, then these stones are easier to sell than their african counterpart as if you promote your stone as African the customer that did not took the time to do serious homework will have this small feeling that he could have a better gem if he buys a Burmese... Many people are affraid to use their common sense and their feelings and they prefer in such matters where large amount of money are involved and where they have no real idea on the subject to follow what others have said... And books are seen as very good and reliable references. Somewhere it is the same concept as the dealer eye from Richard Wise but the problem are that books are not really updated rapidly and the also that in the trade the gemological education of the sales people is limited, and I''ve heard so many time from such people that rubies are best if they are from Burma! and thats a good thing as they have many exceptional burmese beauties...
Finally the fact is that a gem from a traditional origin has a higher immediate value than a gem from an origin unknown to the public... But time passes and may be the new origin will become a sales argument and finally its gems will get higher value.
This commercial aspect sof origin is somewhere stupid and this is not what makes me wake up on this subject...

I''m interested in origin as origin is for me landscapes, people, culture, civilisation, colors, temperature,... As the first country I visited in Asia was Vietnam, I had from that time a high regard with Vietnam stones. As I studied gemology in Burma I love Burmese gems. As I work in Thailand and I''m happy with that I''ve many sympathy for Thai rubies and sapphires and so on.
Origin is for me an affective link between myself and the gems I look at... not really a quality factor as this aspect is not really interesting me as I dont have any money to look at gem for investment.

But each one of course his idea on the subjet.

Gems are so personal items...

All the best,

Vincent,

I now agree with you on romance adding value to the stone due to easier sale at this point in time. I was thinking of the future. I am hoping to save some major stones for my children. By then I don''t know what the preferential origin will be, only that the beauty of the stone.

I am partial to Burma stones since that is where I was born, but that is my prejudice.

 

[mogok]

Hi MJO,
Future is uncertain, buying gemstones for investment is not an easy thing, I would advise you to buy stones that you really like, some gems in which you will be able to put some meaning in especially if you want to transmit them to your children.
Buy gem quality... I mean a beautiful stone that has also a very good durability. Follow the good advises from Richard Wise in his "Secrets of the gem trade" its a very educative book.
For the rarity concept its more complicated. But If your gem is beautiful, durable and from Burma... Well you should not worry!
Now any other origin if to my opinion fine if it is evocative...or if you can make it evocative!
But well I''m not writting about money here, just value which can also be sentimental especially when dealing with gems and jewelry!
Look at what Tiffany did with Tanzanite and Tsavorite: They put the origin in the name...
It works.

All the best,