Market for unheated blue sapphires

[Cave Keeper]

When I see lovely blue sapphires which have undergone heat treatment, I''m so tempted to buy them. But there seems to be lots of advice against buying such stones.

But I wonder how many ladies who wish to wear blue sapphires do care about that distinction. Perhaps their only criterion is whether blue sapphires will add to their own beauty.

On the one hand, if I buy blue sapphires which have undergone such enhancement, would I suffer financially? On the other hand, if I avoid buying heat-treated blue sapphires, won''t I miss catering to a lucrative segment of the market in the event I decide to let go of my prized possession?

So, to buy or not to buy?

 

[WinkHPD]

Cave Keeper,

I advise to buy what you like! I sell both heated and unheated sapphires and can appreciate the beauty of them both. If you wish only unheated then you must bring a big pocket book to the table, and you must have EVERY stone certificated and trust NO ONE without a cert.

Both stones have their place in the market, almost like AGS tripple zero and so/so cut stones. One is much cheaper than the other, and unlike the difference between a poorly cut diamond and a tripple zero cut, a heat treated stone may be both less expensive AND more beautiful than a stone whose main claim to fame is that it is unheated.

It is good to know what you are buying, and to have it fairly represented, but I advise you not to fall into the trap that one is good and one is bad. Both can be bad if they are not beautiful, and both can be good, so long as every thing is revealed and on the table. I advise you to always assume that a sapphire or ruby is heated without the specific claim that it is not and without the accompanying cert from someone who is great at what they are doing with color, like AGTA, or AGA. For color I prefer them over GIA or AGS, although both of those labs are good too.

Wink and another of his opinions...

 

[valeria101]

It sounds liek two thirds of buyers do not care, and the remaining third spends the most! ... at least this is what the stats tend to say. But neither Basel (LINK) nor Tucson LINK reports are about your clients in particular.

 

[strmrdr]

What difference does it make other than $$, once it on the finger it is impossible to tell them apart with the bare eye?
In todays market im not willing to pay extra for an unheated stone.
Id save the $ and put it into a setting or even a matching necklace/earrings

 

[elmo]

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On 7/6/2004 8:26:01 AM strmrdr wrote:

What difference does it make other than $$, once it on the finger it is impossible to tell them apart with the bare eye?
----------------

Would you also purchase a GE-POL HPHT enhanced colorless diamond to save 30-40%? In my mind it's a similar choice with a similar cost.

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/6/2004 8:26:01 AM strmrdr wrote:

What difference does it make other than $$, once it on the finger it is impossible to tell them apart with the bare eye?

In todays market im not willing to pay extra for an unheated stone.

Id save the $ and put it into a setting or even a matching necklace/earrings----------------

Your viewpoint makes sense; I tend to agree with you.

But there are society matrons who are able to spot the "fire" in, or the real look of, genuine stuff. Status could be a factor.

And then there's that 'Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars' thing. The jewel becomes a symbol of security. So if a gentleman were to give a lady a synthetic, he's not going to get more than a synthetic kiss the next time she sees him.

There're psychological factors to consider in jewelry promotion when it comes to arguments over the value of geniune stuff vs. that of substitutes.

 

[strmrdr]

A heated stone isnt a synthetic it still came from the ground.

Maybe my gal is just one in a million but if I tell her I saved money when buying something for her she is happy.
That way she gets nice things and we have money for other things.
When I told her I bought her diamond on the used market and had it reset her only question was did you save money? when I said yes a lot she said kewl! I love it.

 

[strmrdr]

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On 7/6/2004 8:43:00 AM elmo wrote:

----------------

On 7/6/2004 8:26:01 AM strmrdr wrote:


What difference does it make other than $$, once it on the finger it is impossible to tell them apart with the bare eye?

----------------

Would you also purchase a GE-POL HPHT enhanced colorless diamond to save 30-40%? In my mind it's a similar choice with a similar cost.----------------

why not if its cut right?
see above.
Face it resale value is a joke so buy what pleases you and dont worry what others think expecialy in the cases where they will never be able to tell the difference anyway!

 

[mogok]

----------------
On 7/6/2004 8:26:01 AM strmrdr wrote:

What difference does it make other than $$, once it on the finger it is impossible to tell them apart with the bare eye?
In todays market im not willing to pay extra for an unheated stone.
Id save the $ and put it into a setting or even a matching necklace/earrings----------------

Well about that at one meter distance may be the difference will not be visible, but most of the time when you look carefully with a loupe or a microscope: You can see the difference. Not probably in terms of color beauty but in term of nature: In fact its a question of rarity.

We have to remind you that to be a gem, a gemstone is supposed to be:
Beautiful,
Durable,
and rare...

These 3 factors affect the value.

Heat treatment makes beautiful stones more available but these beautiful heat treated stones are much more common than beautiful unheated stones. Heat treatment gives to many people the possibility to have the illusion to own a stone that looks as big and as nice and which is as durable as the stones that before only kings and super rich people could afford. I say illusion as nothing has changed: Beautiful unheated rubies and sapphires are still the gems of the wealthiest of the wealthy, because these people does not want to have the common (coomercial quality) heat treated staff that their staff wifes are weiring at the finger...
That's it...

These people can afford to pay the money for the unheated stones and the less wealthy people can afford the stone that looks like the unheated gems (which is already not that bad as I remind that many people cannot afford even the heated staff...)

It is right that a treated or a heated sapphire is coming from the ground. So in this it is better than a synthetic. But it was altered by human other than with just cutting and polishing...
To me I agree with Wink when he say that there is no problem with any of the 2 stone if you know what you are buying.

If you want one more comparison... I use to say to my students that gems could be compared to beautiful girls: Some are naturally beautiful and everybody accept a little bit of make-up and some dressing... but not everybody will accept silicone and chirurgy. But at 20 meters a nice girl is a nice girl! its a question of taste and of personal philosophy.

All the best

 

[innerkitten]

I guess it's a matter of taste.

 

[innerkitten]

people have their personal priorities when it comes to spending.

Some people would be willing to spend lots and lots of money to own a brand new porshe while I'd rather have a toyota.

 

[mogok]

Exact...

 

[strmrdr]

Well mogok my reply which is gonna be a little unpopular :} is:
rarity smarity who cares as long as it looks good.
and
material snobbery is a sure sign of a fool and a fool and their money will be soon parted :}

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/7/2004 9:22:12 PM strmrdr wrote:

Well mogok my reply which is gonna be a little unpopular :} is:
:
material snobbery is a sure sign of a fool and a fool and their money will be soon parted :}----------------

You do have a point, yet when Mogok brought up that point about some people just simply cannot accept silicon, I can't help but know that material snobbery may yet not be the appropriate factor playing a part.

Yet, you really do have a point that material snobbery is a factor: If a well-to-do guy is fool enough to want a beautiful lady to be a companion; and, if that guy is foolish enough to want to decorate her...

But then why wear anything rare at all if everyone has to live according to some lower value standards?

 

[Cave Keeper]

----------------
On 7/7/2004 9:19:19 AM strmrdr wrote:


:
Maybe my gal is just one in a million but if I tell her I saved money when buying something for her she is happy.
:
When I told her I bought her diamond on the used market and had it reset her only question was did you save money? when I said yes a lot she said kewl! I love it.
:----------------

You most lucky guy!

 

[valeria101]

To me all these treatments are just a matter of degree, from low temperature heating to reprocessed currundum and syntetics. There is treated, and untreated - science versus luck. So, you can call the degree of enhancement "degree of rarity"... doesn't that sound that much better? Too bad this nice wording melts everything in the same pot.

Obviously these are bought for different reasons - if looks would be all that is to jewelry, anything goes: glass included.

Remember Lalique ? His signature makes glass into gems - HPHT on a diamond's girdle... nah

 

[strmrdr]

----------------
On 7/7/2004 9:48:23 PM Cave Keeper wrote:

----------------

On 7/7/2004 9:19:19 AM strmrdr wrote:



:

Maybe my gal is just one in a million but if I tell her I saved money when buying something for her she is happy.

:

When I told her I bought her diamond on the used market and had it reset her only question was did you save money? when I said yes a lot she said kewl! I love it.

:----------------

You most lucky guy!

----------------

yeppers I am to have found her :}

 

[yenbai]

I know most of the people I dealed with (gems dealers and jewelers) clearly prefer unheated stones when I have some.
Even for me it is a great feeling when we mine a stone which has a strong-enough and clean color. Heating is always un unpleasant adventure from the start even we are forced to do so. Image: 9.15ct unheated sapphire cut from 30 cts rough.

 

[mogok]

Hello,
Ana i perfectly agree with you that there is heat treatment and heat treatment... In my lab in Bangkok we see each day many unheated, low temperature heated and hight temperature heated stone with or without additive.

To me the there should be a difference between traditional technique that heat stones under the temperature that some natural stone can be submitted to in the crusta of the earth... There is no rubies and sapphire naturally heated over 1500C... Now many sapphires and rubies we see now are heated at temperatures close the the melting point in modern gas furnaces using different flux and sometimes other additives like beryllium powder.
A clear difference should be made between traditional heat treatment under the "natural temperatures" and the heat treatments with additive like flux (or flux and beryllium powder, etc...)

In these last stone the complete internal world of the stone looks like a battlefield after a B52 raid... Everything is melted, fused,... It has a kind of beauty sure but... well... I dont know...
Well to me a gemstone has to be nice of 2 or 3 meters to show off... but the internal world of a gem in a very intimate beauty only revealed to its owner: I love unheated gems that have in addition to their overall beauty this beautiful internal world of tiny but beautiful inlcusions. These make my stones different from any other one... It make this stone something only known by me. In fact its very much like a love affair!

Whatever... I prefer to have something that is something that something that look like something!

Ok may be I understand that because of my old style french education from an old wine maker family:
"Quality stand and stay...".
"Show off is good for new rich people".
in Bangkok one of my friend (German) has add on the same kind of spirit:
"The first spiritual want of barbarian man is decoration"

I love gems for years and when i buy them its just for me...but well I understand also completly the argument: "Why should I buy this unheated gem if for the same money I can buy a similar looking and beautiful one and bring my wife for a week end in venice with the difference..."

To this argument i was replied by one student in Bangkok while i was defending heat treated gems ( Yes, I can do that...) that "If you give to your love one a cheap heat treated gem then do not be surprised to get a cheap heat treated kiss..."

Well, anyway: the only important thing in this matter is the customer to be happy with his stone. Everybody buy a gem with a different purpose: There is no bad purpose if you can get some enjoyment from your gem...

All the best

 

[innerkitten]

I like small inclusions too. They are unique and give a stone character.

So is flux and beryllium powder like a coating? Like a diffusion sapphire or different?

 

[pyramid]

Are the dark inky sapphired ever heated or are they natural unheated? Is it worth it to heat them at all?

 

[Cave Keeper]

----------------
On 7/8/2004 3:26:27 PM pyramid wrote:

Are the dark inky sapphired ever heated or are they natural unheated? Is it worth it to heat them at all?----------------

I do agree with Mogok and inner kitten that untreated stones seem to have something in them. That inner soul that is different from outer beauty. They have some quality so different from treated ones. It's like some people look extremely handsome or beautiful until they open their mouth?

In Indian astrology, they insist on natural stones. Some claim it's their ability to vibrate, or rather, resonate(?), at certain frequencies. But maybe they were normally unaware of the treatment issue in those old books, otherwise they would also have insisted on untreated stones. There are some Indian crystal dealers who have the opinion that a crystal should not be cut. In the extreme, some crystal users insist on uncut stones. Even cutting a natural crystal would be considered as wounding its body (and causing pain to it?) I can't remember where but someone wrote that in ancient days, before faceting develop, precious stones were simply owned as unpolished natural pebbles.

May the Force be with us (those who own at least one untreated stone)!

 

[mogok]

Hello,

Well I cannot somewhere agree more with you: when I was student gemologist in Burma few years ago I met an american crystal dealer that was buying crystals. I was very surprised when he told me that after years dealing in gems he has more and more problems to cut a gem when he see a nice crystal. Fine gemstones are rare but fine gem quality crystals are even more rare... After years in the business he is now collecting gems crystals. He gave me the virus: now I run the area searching for gems gifted by the nature with something that the most skilled cutter will not be able to give it: A perfect nautral shape.
I still also appreciate a fine cut stone... But when I see a gem quality crystal quality ruby. I'm so happy to hold in my hand the most perfect gift nature can give to us and I understand my american friend: it would be a crime to cut such a stone... i think that the Indian guys you are talikng about were a little bit same him and same several Burmese I've met: True gemstone lovers!

Well first you like the stone for what they looks, then you will want the unheated one, then you will love the natural crystal... A top quality crystal is such a beauty and this beauty is still at the potential level! Its a dream machine...

Here are some Mogok born little dream stones...

Hoping that you will like them and understand my point: A good photo worth more than 1000 words!
All the best,

 

[valeria101]

Hm... what kind of twinning could that be ???!

We seem to understand each other very, very well, Mogok. Only that the guy who inflicted this temptation upon me was a Pakistani dealer, not an American collector. Stones are not supposed to be glowing red or blue when you look into gravel, right? And yes, there must be some anthropology involved in what makes gems universal - agreed with your German friend

 

[Cave Keeper]

----------------
On 7/8/2004 2:18:19 PM innerkitten wrote:


:
So is flux and beryllium powder like a coating? Like a diffusion sapphire or different?----------------

I think the heat-treatment of sapphires using beryllium (in the form of neighboring chrysoberyls placed in the ovens) is called 'deep diffusion'. The depth of penetration of the crystal's body depends on the length of time of heating. So it's not the normal surface diffusion that we know of.

Some people claimed the supply of cheap chrysoberyls have run out; who knows, chrysoberyls might be the next rare stone for collectors!

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/8/2004 9:42:18 PM mogok wrote:

Hello,
:
Here are some Mogok born little dream stones...
Hoping that you will like them and understand my point: A good photo worth more than 1000 words!
:
----------------

Wow, let us know when you've put those photos into a book! I'd like to get a copy for the living room's tabletop.

Best regards.

 

[mogok]

Hello!

About the beryllium treatment I've written a complete article in the french website www.geminterest.com,
You can read it at the following link:

http://www.geminterest.com/article.traitberyllium.php

Its in french but you can at least see the photos and also there are many translating tools on several search engine that if they are not perfect with gemological language will make it easy for you to read the article.

But I quite agree with you cavekeeper about this treatment: It was called "bulk diffusion" and now "lattice diffusion" and some people would like to call it in other ways without the word diffusion as on a technical and pure scientific point any kind of heat treatment is a kind of diffusion process.
Its not a coating...
Its between the traditional conception for "heat treatment" and "diffusion treatment".

I try to explain: The thing is that traditionally in the gem trade the word diffusion was used only for the heat treatment in which some direct coloring agent as chromium, iron or titanium was diffused to a thin layer under the surface of the stone to improve its color. These elements have a very low diffusion speed and the color is very surface related. But beryllium is a very tiny and light element that has at high temeprature a diffusion speed much more high and this element can penetrate deeply in the stone and many times completly. The problem is that beryllium was not seen and is still not seen as a direct coloring agent in corundum and there is still a controversy about the aptitude of beryllium to give color by itself to corundum. It seems that beryllium is very efficient to modify the color by cutting the team between iron and titanium that create the blue.
It means that it can lower the blue of a stone...
It can then liberate some iron for this iron to give some yellow...
It means that removing the blue component we can turn a green sapphire into a yellow one (much more valuable) and then a purplish red one into a red orange one.. or to make a dark blue sapphire less blue...
It has a lot of possible applications for all the iron rich corundum (from australia, thailand, Madagascar, Tanzania, Kenya, Sri Lanka,...) and that was somthing scary for several american labs and companies dealing with other more traditional gemstones: The fear to see the market flooded with these too beautiful stones!

In fact its a kind of very high temperature heat treatment using some additives like flux and also beryllium powder coming from natural chrysoberyl or possibly also industrial beryllium powder (They sell this industrial beryllium powder in several shop in Chanthabury so I guess that its for some use...) Its a very efficient advanced technology in heat treatment. May be too efficient? Well the stones are just beautiful... but I still prefer unheated gems and beautiful gem crystals!

All the best

 

[mogok]

----------------

Wow, let us know when you've put those photos into a book! I'd like to get a copy for the living room's tabletop----------------

Hum, there is no book with these photos and there will not be any... These photos are just coming from the "Burmese gem gallery" I take care in the website from one of my friends in Bangkok... You are welcome to go to visit this small museum of all the kind of gems Burma can offer...

All the best,

 

[strmrdr]

mogok,
Those are pretty kewl and I second the request for a book! :}

You raise a good point that there is something special about the stones in a natural state as nature made them.
But one can also get too hung up on it and miss the beauty of a stone that just happens to be heated or even cut.

If i was collecting specimens then id be more picky about it but I still say for jewlery how it looks to the bare eye is the most important quality.

I dont think we disagree that much we are just looking at it from different directions, collecting, specimens, vs daily wear jewlery.

 

[pyramid]

Would the dark inky sapphires seen in maul stores be heat treated or natural do you know?