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Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised...
- Thread starter WillyDiamond
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
Why would this be a reason to avoid GIA? It’s a reason to do get it appraised and inspected early on. If something has an ownership problem, I would want to know, wouldn’t you? Figuring it out early increases dramatically the chances of restitution.
I just ran into one of these cases relatively recently. Obviously I can't discuss the details and, as with all stories, there are tons of complications. The ‘offending act’ committed here was by the jeweler in 2003 when sold stolen property (allegedly). This is above and beyond the issues surrounding the original theft, which was a matter between Goldberg and Khan or the one when Khan sold it. This one was between the jeweler and his customer. It doesn’t change that the jeweler himself was an innocent 3rd party. That means the jeweler has a liability to his customer. He owes a refund and would probably lose a lawsuit if it doesn’t happen. The same happens with the jeweler to his supplier and all the way down the chain back to the pawn shop. THEY have a license and a bond on the line. It doesn’t matter if they can get restitution from the criminal or not, they owe it to whoever they sold the goods to, and their license can be revoked if they don’t pay up.
As far as I know, title insurance isn’t available for anything other than Real Estate, but this strikes me as a reason you SHOULD be getting things inspected, graded and appraised, even if you already think you know the answers. GIA doesn't offer title insurance either, but its good due diligence to get it checked. It’s a reason to get GIA and/or Gemprint involved early on in the process. If this had happened on day 1 rather than 9 years later it would have played out very differently.
For whatever consolation it is, this process is a protection for the public, even though it looks like a risk. Title doesn’t transfer when stolen property is sold, nor should it. Pawn shops are well skilled at this. They know their risks, and bid accordingly. They make money on some and lose money on others. The one spinning in the wind here is the jeweler. He’s an innocent victim too. The moral for jewelers is simple enough. Pay attention to who your suppliers are, not just the goods. You may have greater risks in what seems like a simple transaction than you think.
A note on legal type discussions like this: These things vary greatly from state to state and the details matter enormously. The source of 'facts' here is highly suspect and I know none of them. In any case I'm far from New York and am nothing like an expert in New York laws. Do not take any of this as legal advice. This is for casual academic discussion only. Talk to an attorney if ANY of this applies to you (ie if you're a consumer, jeweler, pawn broker or criminal involved in a case like this).
Why would this be a reason to avoid GIA? It’s a reason to do get it appraised and inspected early on. If something has an ownership problem, I would want to know, wouldn’t you? Figuring it out early increases dramatically the chances of restitution.
I just ran into one of these cases relatively recently. Obviously I can't discuss the details and, as with all stories, there are tons of complications. The ‘offending act’ committed here was by the jeweler in 2003 when sold stolen property (allegedly). This is above and beyond the issues surrounding the original theft, which was a matter between Goldberg and Khan or the one when Khan sold it. This one was between the jeweler and his customer. It doesn’t change that the jeweler himself was an innocent 3rd party. That means the jeweler has a liability to his customer. He owes a refund and would probably lose a lawsuit if it doesn’t happen. The same happens with the jeweler to his supplier and all the way down the chain back to the pawn shop. THEY have a license and a bond on the line. It doesn’t matter if they can get restitution from the criminal or not, they owe it to whoever they sold the goods to, and their license can be revoked if they don’t pay up.
As far as I know, title insurance isn’t available for anything other than Real Estate, but this strikes me as a reason you SHOULD be getting things inspected, graded and appraised, even if you already think you know the answers. GIA doesn't offer title insurance either, but its good due diligence to get it checked. It’s a reason to get GIA and/or Gemprint involved early on in the process. If this had happened on day 1 rather than 9 years later it would have played out very differently.
For whatever consolation it is, this process is a protection for the public, even though it looks like a risk. Title doesn’t transfer when stolen property is sold, nor should it. Pawn shops are well skilled at this. They know their risks, and bid accordingly. They make money on some and lose money on others. The one spinning in the wind here is the jeweler. He’s an innocent victim too. The moral for jewelers is simple enough. Pay attention to who your suppliers are, not just the goods. You may have greater risks in what seems like a simple transaction than you think.
A note on legal type discussions like this: These things vary greatly from state to state and the details matter enormously. The source of 'facts' here is highly suspect and I know none of them. In any case I'm far from New York and am nothing like an expert in New York laws. Do not take any of this as legal advice. This is for casual academic discussion only. Talk to an attorney if ANY of this applies to you (ie if you're a consumer, jeweler, pawn broker or criminal involved in a case like this).
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
Assuming there was a conviction, Kahn surely would have been ordered to pay restitution to Goldberg, the victim of the theft. Realistically, this doesn’t usually go very far. He doesn’t have any money, which is why he’s a criminal. He may be making easy monthly payments or this may be the reason he’s hiding in Dubai. Collecting money from deadbeats overseas is difficult.
Up until the day that GIA grabbed it, the jeweler was unaware that he was involved in any sort of problem at all. That’s 9 years into it. I’m guessing he’s got questions and they’re working through it. That’s why GIA still has it. You can bet that he has spoken to the pawn shop and anyone involved in the middle about this and everyone is pulling their hair out over the topic of exactly who owes restitution to whom and for how much.
Assuming there was a conviction, Kahn surely would have been ordered to pay restitution to Goldberg, the victim of the theft. Realistically, this doesn’t usually go very far. He doesn’t have any money, which is why he’s a criminal. He may be making easy monthly payments or this may be the reason he’s hiding in Dubai. Collecting money from deadbeats overseas is difficult.
Up until the day that GIA grabbed it, the jeweler was unaware that he was involved in any sort of problem at all. That’s 9 years into it. I’m guessing he’s got questions and they’re working through it. That’s why GIA still has it. You can bet that he has spoken to the pawn shop and anyone involved in the middle about this and everyone is pulling their hair out over the topic of exactly who owes restitution to whom and for how much.
proto
Shiny_Rock
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
Scary that this can happen through very reputable jewelers for sure. Fortunately for me, I am not buying the kind of diamonds that would be most likely to be in this kind of situation, and I don't buy diamonds at pawn shops, either for that very reason. I do get a little nervous with ebay for that reason and generally don't buy really expensive things on there.
Scary that this can happen through very reputable jewelers for sure. Fortunately for me, I am not buying the kind of diamonds that would be most likely to be in this kind of situation, and I don't buy diamonds at pawn shops, either for that very reason. I do get a little nervous with ebay for that reason and generally don't buy really expensive things on there.
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
And that's DenverAPPRAISER, which is why I felt I needed to respond to the headline.
No worries. I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on you, I was just addressing the headline. It's an interesting topic for a diamond forum that doesn't actually get discussed very often.WillyDiamond|1400254135|3674180 said:
And that's DenverAPPRAISER, which is why I felt I needed to respond to the headline.
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
This is what drives me batty...
"G.I.A., a nonprofit industry group that appraises and certifies diamonds."
Gia neither certifies nor appraises diamonds!
The issue a grading report with an opinion on the gemological properties of a diamond.
You would think the Ny times would get it right!
This is what drives me batty...
"G.I.A., a nonprofit industry group that appraises and certifies diamonds."
Gia neither certifies nor appraises diamonds!
The issue a grading report with an opinion on the gemological properties of a diamond.
You would think the Ny times would get it right!
TC1987
Brilliant_Rock
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
When a diamond is reported stolen, do all the major labs get that same report of stolen stones? Or was this one caught because it was GIA-graded and it went back to GIA? One of my relatives had some diamonds stolen by a jeweler when she left them there on consignment, so it does happen. I'm just wondering how easy or difficult is it to launder them through a different grading lab.
When a diamond is reported stolen, do all the major labs get that same report of stolen stones? Or was this one caught because it was GIA-graded and it went back to GIA? One of my relatives had some diamonds stolen by a jeweler when she left them there on consignment, so it does happen. I'm just wondering how easy or difficult is it to launder them through a different grading lab.
proto
Shiny_Rock
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
the US appears to have codified the concept in UCC 2-2-403, although I am not a US attorney http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403
The last owner, assuming he didnt know or have reasonable reason to suspect that the title he was obtaining, has a better title than the guy who originally owned the diamond, before it was stolen.
Latest owner keeps the diamond.
Original owner has to sue the scoundrel (who has no assets usually).
denverappraiser|1400248489|3674111 said:
the US appears to have codified the concept in UCC 2-2-403, although I am not a US attorney http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-403
The last owner, assuming he didnt know or have reasonable reason to suspect that the title he was obtaining, has a better title than the guy who originally owned the diamond, before it was stolen.
Latest owner keeps the diamond.
Original owner has to sue the scoundrel (who has no assets usually).
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
Offered a contemporary (2003), more detailed NY Times account, and some additional info, in the thread on this story that Jimmianne kicked off yesterday on the Diamond Hangout board:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...pear-in-the-nyt.201982/#post-3673943#p3673943
Offered a contemporary (2003), more detailed NY Times account, and some additional info, in the thread on this story that Jimmianne kicked off yesterday on the Diamond Hangout board:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...pear-in-the-nyt.201982/#post-3673943#p3673943
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Re: Maybe it's not always a good idea to have ring appraised
That’s pretty interesting reading.
I’m really curious about the UCC snippet above. Thanks.
I’m also curious about how GIA decided that it had been reported stolen 9 years earlier. That’s surely some piece of software that kicks it out of the system automatically and I wonder where people who have their things stolen go to ‘register’ in order to make this happen. The story is mostly targeted on the unhappiness of the buyer on the other end but, mostly, this is a benefit for customers (and insurance companies). The GIA website plugs how they can and do assist law enforcement but it has no clues on how a victim should proceed.
That’s pretty interesting reading.
I’m really curious about the UCC snippet above. Thanks.
I’m also curious about how GIA decided that it had been reported stolen 9 years earlier. That’s surely some piece of software that kicks it out of the system automatically and I wonder where people who have their things stolen go to ‘register’ in order to make this happen. The story is mostly targeted on the unhappiness of the buyer on the other end but, mostly, this is a benefit for customers (and insurance companies). The GIA website plugs how they can and do assist law enforcement but it has no clues on how a victim should proceed.
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heididdl
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