More senseless killing in Paris

[arkieb1]

Both of our Governments could have been doing more to end the conflict over there and the rest of the world could have stepped in and said it is completely unacceptable for over a million people to be displaced due to war. If a million people were made homeless in the US or in Australia due to conflict, there would be utter outrage but over there it's taken us this long and the realisation we are not going to stop the terrorist threat on our shores until we acknowledge our part in this mess and what we can now do to help fix it. I suspect the appalling events that have just occurred in Paris might just be the final straw and now the rest of the world, particularly the US will become more heavily involved in the conflict.

 

[purplesparklies]

Just as we can not put all good, law abiding people, rational into one neat and tidy little box, we cannot put all evil, law breaking, irrational people into a single box. They come from all walks of life. They are not all of the same religion, belief system or ethnicity. They are not all of the same education level or socioeconomic level. You are fooling yourself to believe it is so simple as that.

In the past several years, both my father and my sister have spent time and effort, boots on the ground as they say, fighting to protect the rights of all of us to sit in our recliners in the comfort of our homes and speculate about all of this. My Dad, a retired police officer and marine, volunteered to join forces with a private firm which worked in conjunction with our armed forces. He did a stint in Afghanistan and one in Iraq working to help local authorities receive training to help them move forward in peace and order. My sister was deployed to Afghanistan. I recently saw her position of military intelligence referred to as an oxymoron. Such an ignorant statement speaks significantly more to the intelligence level of the person uttering such nonsense than it does to the intelligence of those individuals who put their lives on the line to protect the right of random citizens to make such vapid, inane statements. But I digress.

I assure you that they met and worked with people from all walks of life. They are both educated and were well prepared for their roles over there. However, nothing could have prepared them for what they learned of the belief systems of the local people. It is not just a joke that the local men engage in sexual acts with animals. They choose to do so because they believe that the animals are less unclean than the women. They have no respect for women. The base had many dogs running freely. The local men threw things at them, kicked them, beat them, etc. They have no respect for animals. There is a complete and utter disrespect of all life other than that of males who are like them. There is no talking it out with these people. No middle ground exists.

The stories I have heard are horrifying beyond belief. It is inconceivable to most of us that anyone believes to their core the things that these people believe. I am all for people having the right to believe whatever they want to believe. I am thankful to live in a country that protects the rights of all of us to live according to our beliefs, whatever those may be, as long as those beliefs do not infringe upon the rights or the lives of others. I am thankful to know that there are those, military and civilian, working 24-hours a day to work to protect all of us from the evil in this world. I am thankful for all those willing to do the ugly work, the messy work, the necessary work to forcefully stop evil in it's tracks. Without them, we would have no one standing between us and evil.

 

[redwood66]

I am so sad for the families of the killed and wounded in Paris. This is absolutely senseless and frankly I do not care what the killers problems or motivation are, or care to understand them. If one's upbringing, religious beliefs, or circumstances teaches them that killing innocents is justified then there is no help for them. I would love it if my country would stay the hell out of the Middle East and other lands where we have no business or are not wanted. Let them live (or not) how they like and have been for thousands of years. Even so, some would come here to kill anyway and then they should be dealt with decisively. I don't want my sons (who are serving) to die for people who do not want it nor appreciate it. We have plenty of problems that need addressing right here in the US.

 

[purplesparklies]

I am so sad for the families of the killed and wounded in Paris. This is absolutely senseless and frankly I do not care what the killers problems or motivation are, or care to understand them. If one's upbringing, religious beliefs, or circumstances teaches them that killing innocents is justified then there is no help for them. I would love it if my country would stay the hell out of the Middle East and other lands where we have no business or are not wanted. Let them live (or not) how they like and have been for thousands of years. Even so, some would come here to kill anyway and then they should be dealt with decisively. I don't want my sons (who are serving) to die for people who do not want it nor appreciate it. We have plenty of problems that need addressing right here in the US.

Agreed!

 

[arkieb1]

I am so sad for the families of the killed and wounded in Paris. This is absolutely senseless and frankly I do not care what the killers problems or motivation are, or care to understand them. If one's upbringing, religious beliefs, or circumstances teaches them that killing innocents is justified then there is no help for them. I would love it if my country would stay the hell out of the Middle East and other lands where we have no business or are not wanted. Let them live (or not) how they like and have been for thousands of years. Even so, some would come here to kill anyway and then they should be dealt with decisively. I don't want my sons (who are serving) to die for people who do not want it nor appreciate it. We have plenty of problems that need addressing right here in the US.

So, if what just happened in Paris happens in the US in the next 6 to 12 months, then what? Unfortunately the time to pass the buck is long over. And for the record I don't believe Australian, American or any other nation's sons or daughters deserve to die over there either but we are unfortunately past the point of no intervention. The US is largely to blame for removing Saddam and leaving an army ill equipped to deal with Isis, but lets face it, it will not be vote winning to lose masses of US soldiers in another battle over there.

 

[AGBF]

Both of our Governments could have been doing more to end the conflict over there and the rest of the world could have stepped in and said it is completely unacceptable for over a million people to be displaced due to war. If a million people were made homeless in the US or in Australia due to conflict, there would be utter outrage but over there it's taken us this long and the realisation we are not going to stop the terrorist threat on our shores until we acknowledge our part in this mess and what we can now do to help fix it.

I totally agree with this, arkie, although I am not at all sure that the impetus for the terrorist actions of ISIS/ISIL in France was the refugee problem. As I have said, I blame the United States for de-stabilizing the region with the invasion of Iraq. I think that ISIS took advantage of the power vacuum and, due to the political and social climate that has been described, found many adherents. Our second crime (after the crime of stupidity for invading Iraq) was to ignore the refugee problem. But that was a crime against humanity. I am not sure whether it contributed to the terrorism.

I suspect the appalling events that have just occurred in Paris might just be the final straw and now the rest of the world, particularly the US will become more heavily involved in the conflict.

Well, I would say, "From your mouth to God's ear", but I suspect that He isn't listening to me. I am not as sanguine as you that anyone will want to help the refugees because of the terrorism by ISIS. On the contrary, I fear that they may suffer for the sins of the terrorists. People may equate the refugees from Middle East with terrorists who practice Islam. The refugees may be worse off than before.

Deb/AGBF

 

[redwood66]

I am so sad for the families of the killed and wounded in Paris. This is absolutely senseless and frankly I do not care what the killers problems or motivation are, or care to understand them. If one's upbringing, religious beliefs, or circumstances teaches them that killing innocents is justified then there is no help for them. I would love it if my country would stay the hell out of the Middle East and other lands where we have no business or are not wanted. Let them live (or not) how they like and have been for thousands of years. Even so, some would come here to kill anyway and then they should be dealt with decisively. I don't want my sons (who are serving) to die for people who do not want it nor appreciate it. We have plenty of problems that need addressing right here in the US.

So, if what just happened in Paris happens in the US in the next 6 to 12 months, then what? Unfortunately the time to pass the buck is long over. And for the record I don't believe Australian, American or any other nation's sons or daughters deserve to die their either but we are unfortunately past the point of no intervention.

Well I could say turn the whole damn place to glass but that is not an option. Nor a very popular opinion. I don't know arkie it is a terrible predicament and I do not have any answers but unfortunately it seems no one else does either. We sure can't reason with them or buy them off. So what do we do? And to keep blaming the US and George Bush doesn't solve a damn thing either.

 

[momhappy]

Yes, terrorism happens when have-nots feel powerless, hopeless, frustrated, and screwed-over by the haves.

Playing nice and following the rules has gotten them nowhere.
Playing nasty draws attention to their plight.

I'm not saying terrorism is okay.
And when it's based on self-professed religious-pure wiping out who they feel is religiously-impure it's particularly heinous.
But again if people had hope messages from religious leaders to carry out terrorism to gain favor with God would fall on reasonable and deaf ears.

When I see terrorism I ask, "Why?"
The answer, "Because they're evil." is a cop out.

The world is not fair.
I'm just glad I was clever enough to be born a white male in a country where there IS hope.

And I think that trying to explain/justify/make sense out of these acts of terrorism is a cop out.
Whether you think it's hopelessness, frustration, feeling "screwed over", George Bush, etc. it still doesn't change the fact that terrorists are evil. If you storm a concert hall packed with innocent people, and you begin shooting them one-by-one, you're evil. I don't feel the need to make sense out of these attacks because they simply don't make sense (thus the title of your thread).

 

[arkieb1]

This is great food for thought;

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-george-w-bush-create-isis

Without blaming anyone, I honestly believe we will see more military intervention now and sadly it is long overdue.

 

[redwood66]

This is great food for though;

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-george-w-bush-create-isis

Without blaming anyone, I honestly believe we will see more military intervention now and sadly it is long overdue.

It is long overdue and at this point it does not matter whose fault it is because all have had a hand in it no matter the party.

 

[packrat]

I feel like the US is damned if we do damned if we don't. If we do X and then not Y and Z then we are to blame for A. If we don't do X and then B and C happen, then we are to blame. If we do X and Y but not Z then we are to blame for D. Other countries ask for our help, we give it, we're to blame for any fall out. Other countries don't ask for our help, we decide to intervene b/c we think it's right b/c people are being treated atrociously and we can't abide that, and I'm betting it's not decided to intervene for shits n giggles but to save lives? or no? buuut then we intervene and we're to blame.

Honestly, I wish we would either give a final hand up/wave and head nod and say ok, yep, we hear ya, good luck, and turn our attentions to our own country--or if we're *going* to intervene/stick our nose where technically it doesn't belong, then we need to follow thru 100% and not run in and smack someone across the face w/a glove and then run back and hide or wait to see what happens next. If you're going to "do something about it" then effing DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. There's no aw shit I'm sorry did we blow up that building in order to kill 20 bad guys and save your asses? shit, sorry, we'll go ahead and rebuild it at our cost, our bad. No. If you want us to take out the bad guys, then we're coming in and we're doing it right-and shit gets broken in the process.

If we're supposed to be the watch dog of the world, regardless if we are self appointed or if others demand we be, then we need to step up and take care of shit. Or are we the fair weather friend, the one that we only talk to or have anything to do w/when we need something?

 

[redwood66]

Totally agree packrat. I gotta go and Skype with my kid who is overseas. Carry on people.

 

[Gypsy]

Their faith promises them a afterlife in paradise surrounded by glory and 72 virgins.

Without veering into religion, which is forbidden, I'd like to adjust this statement.

Their INTERPRETATION of their faith promises this.

My family is from the middle east. Their ACTUAL religion is one that preaches peace. I do not believe that the psychopath's interpretation of a bunch of ambiguous ancient texts is the correct one. And neither do the MAJORITY of the people that practice that religion. (Please note, I do not practice that religion personally, but my family does).


ANY fundamentalist psychopath can take ANY doctrine and suit it for their purposes.

Christianity has been used this way as well.

Religious, not religious, etc. Heck they could take tenents of Star Trek too far and create a terrorist attack justification for it.

My cousin is a health nut. Being healthy and exercising is good right? Well, yes. But to an extreme. She exercises so much she gives her body routine stress fractures, has worn our the cartilage in many of her joints, and despite the fact that she is 2 years my junior, looks older and more worn out than I do. She takes it to an extreme.

Fundamentalism is WRONG. And it is the fault of the fundamentalist NOT the fault of the doctrine. ANYTHING taken to an extreme is harmful.

If I've veered into religion too much, moderators, I apologize. That was not my intent at all. Please delete what you find objectionable with my apologies.

 

[arkieb1]

O.K if we ignore the fact the US and its allies pulled out of the war on Iraq too early after a witch hunt for Saddam the fact remains, the Western world has done very little for the past four+ years to end/intervene in the Iraq/Syrian war which has seen the mass bombing and destruction of mostly civilian targets that has caused (quoting statistics here) "more than half the 23 million Syrians to flee their homes, four million of whom are refugees outside of Syria and around three million who have fled Iraq."

It was largely O.K for everyone to look the other way until multitudes of displaced people started flooding into Europe and the terrorist are now suddenly not only conducting lone wolf attacks but reverting back to the strategies we saw that created 9/11. I guess it's a case of the poo is hitting the fan a little closer to home and our politicians are going to be forced soon into making some hard decisions.

I agree with your point Gypsy, unfortunately the statement I wrote about THEIR (meaning the extremists faith) doesn't allow me to include a tone of sarcasm with it, by "their" I meant extremists not all Muslims.

 

[Gypsy]

I agree with your point Gypsy, unfortunately the statement I wrote about THEIR (meaning the extremists faith) doesn't allow me to include a tone of sarcasm with it, by "their" I meant extremists not all Muslims.

It is hard to tell tone from a post! I just wanted to make sure.

 

[arkieb1]

I've never really gotten the whole 72 virgins thing, other than it's some type of Jihad folklore or legend.... I did however read a very funny article that asked do female suicide bombers get 72 male virgins too....apparently the women just get their husbands nothing else. I was like if you're a Jihad Jane and you believe what they tell you, then you definitely got duped.

 

[AGBF]

And I think that trying to explain/justify/make sense out of these acts of terrorism is a cop out.

Whether you think it's hopelessness, frustration, feeling "screwed over", George Bush, etc. it still doesn't change the fact that terrorists are evil.

First you stated an opinion. You said that you thought (i.e. in your opinion) trying to make sense out of terrorism was "a cop out". I am not sure what one would be "copping out" of by trying to explain an act. Because I am not sure how thinking or searching for answers is ever "copping out". But you stated that this was your opinion. So I would just ask you to tell me why you think it is a cop out.

Second you stated a fact. You said that stating what one saw as a cause of the terrorism doesn't change the fact that the terrorists are evil. That statement is rife with logical flaws. Number one, you are presupposing that the terrorists are evil. I have to evoke Jane Smith. The terrorists have an agenda. The acts that they have committed, not only here but in the Middle East, the beheadings and burning the Iraqi pilot alive in a cage, are unspeakable. But that does not mean that labelling them "evil" explains why they did what they did.

Number two, refusing to look at why the terrorists did what they did could not change whether the terrorists were good or evil, of course. But it could change the future of the United States. Looking at what the terrorists did and at the political actions that made them possible is the smart route for the United Stares to pursue. So, contrary to what you argue, the United States should be analyzing what caused ISIS to start and to flourish. How else can we avoid future ISISes?

Deb/AGBF

 

[VRBeauty]

Please understand that I am in no way condoning what happened in Paris. But...

In April of this year, Islamic fundamentalists killed 147 students at a Christian college in Kenya. There were no Kenyan flags on facebook, no Hangout threads, no international outcry. Maybe it's because OUR way of life was not threatened? Or maybe Kenyan students - the hope for the future for their families, and perhaps even for their nation - aren't as important as the first-world people we can identify with?

In December 2014 the Taliban killed over 140 people in a school in Pakistan - again targeting that country's future. I posted about it here https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-over-100-school-children-in-pakistan.209003/. That garnered all of three responses, and less views than this thread has responses.

It does make me wonder about the "developed" world's attention span, and whether our short, self-centered attention span may have contributed to the horrors that unfolded in Paris.

 

[packrat]

Never heard a word about either of those incidents.

 

[kenny]

The Native Americans likely considered the invading Europeans to be terrorists.

 

[arkieb1]

Please understand that I am in no way condoning what happened in Paris. But...

In April of this year, Islamic fundamentalists killed 147 students at a Christian college in Kenya. There were no Kenyan flags on facebook, no Hangout threads, no international outcry. Maybe it's because OUR way of life was not threatened? Or maybe Kenyan students - the hope for the future for their families, and perhaps even for their nation - aren't as important as the first-world people we can identify with?

In December 2014 the Taliban killed over 140 people in a school in Pakistan - again targeting that country's future. I posted about it here https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-over-100-school-children-in-pakistan.209003/. That garnered all of three responses, and less views than this thread has responses.

It does make me wonder about the "developed" world's attention span, and whether our short, self-centered attention span may have contributed to the horrors that unfolded in Paris.

Isis just attacked innocent people in Beirut too, just before Paris, yet it gets very little coverage by comparison in our news.... We collectively in the Western world do very little to intervene in these atrocities until they are brought to our attention or brought to our shores.

 

[Gypsy]

Please understand that I am in no way condoning what happened in Paris. But...

In April of this year, Islamic fundamentalists killed 147 students at a Christian college in Kenya. There were no Kenyan flags on facebook, no Hangout threads, no international outcry. Maybe it's because OUR way of life was not threatened? Or maybe Kenyan students - the hope for the future for their families, and perhaps even for their nation - aren't as important as the first-world people we can identify with?

In December 2014 the Taliban killed over 140 people in a school in Pakistan - again targeting that country's future. I posted about it here https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-over-100-school-children-in-pakistan.209003/. That garnered all of three responses, and less views than this thread has responses.

It does make me wonder about the "developed" world's attention span, and whether our short, self-centered attention span may have contributed to the horrors that unfolded in Paris.

Isis just attacked innocent people in Beirut too, just before Paris, yet it gets very little coverage by comparison in our news.... We collectively in the Western world do very little to intervene in these atrocities until they are brought to our attention or brought to our shores.

Great points and I agree. No coverage.

Personally I think it's a white privilege thing. Only the Western world and it's population of white people matter to our media and frankly to most people in this country.

Everyone else is a.... insert racial epithet here. So let them all kill themselves.

I've lost so much faith in this country and become so cynical.

 

[momhappy]

And I think that trying to explain/justify/make sense out of these acts of terrorism is a cop out.

Whether you think it's hopelessness, frustration, feeling "screwed over", George Bush, etc. it still doesn't change the fact that terrorists are evil.

First you stated an opinion. You said that you thought (i.e. in your opinion) trying to make sense out of terrorism was "a cop out". I am not sure what one would be "copping out" of by trying to explain an act. Because I am not sure how thinking or searching for answers is ever "copping out". But you stated that this was your opinion. So I would just ask you to tell me why you think it is a cop out.

Second you stated a fact. You said that stating what one saw as a cause of the terrorism doesn't change the fact that the terrorists are evil. That statement is rife with logical flaws. Number one, you are presupposing that the terrorists are evil. I have to evoke Jane Smith. The terrorists have an agenda. The acts that they have committed, not only here but in the Middle East, the beheadings and burning the Iraqi pilot alive in a cage, are unspeakable. But that does not mean that labelling them "evil" explains why they did what they did.

Number two, refusing to look at why the terrorists did what they did could not change whether the terrorists were good or evil, of course. But it could change the future of the United States. Looking at what the terrorists did and at the political actions that made them possible is the smart route for the United Stares to pursue. So, contrary to what you argue, the United States should be analyzing what caused ISIS to start and to flourish. How else can we avoid future ISISes?

Deb/AGBF

My statements were just general reactions and I have no interest in picking apart the logic of terrorism. I never said that the US shouldn't analyze these types of situations - in fact they should - but that's not my job and that's not what my commentary was about. My post was in response to a particular post about how simply saying that terrorists are evil, is a cop out, which I disagreed with.

 

[momhappy]

This is great food for though;

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-george-w-bush-create-isis

Without blaming anyone, I honestly believe we will see more military intervention now and sadly it is long overdue.

It is long overdue and at this point it does not matter whose fault it is because all have had a hand in it no matter the party.

I agree and yes, placing fault/blame is somewhat irrelevant at this point. It is an incredibly complex region of the world and it has gotten even more so over the years, so I don't think it's fair to say that it was caused by x, y, or z.

 

[AGBF]

And I think that trying to explain/justify/make sense out of these acts of terrorism is a cop out.

Whether you think it's hopelessness, frustration, feeling "screwed over", George Bush, etc. it still doesn't change the fact that terrorists are evil.

First you stated an opinion. You said that you thought (i.e. in your opinion) trying to make sense out of terrorism was "a cop out". I am not sure what one would be "copping out" of by trying to explain an act. Because I am not sure how thinking or searching for answers is ever "copping out". But you stated that this was your opinion. So I would just ask you to tell me why you think it is a cop out.

Second you stated a fact. You said that stating what one saw as a cause of the terrorism doesn't change the fact that the terrorists are evil. That statement is rife with logical flaws. Number one, you are presupposing that the terrorists are evil. I have to evoke Jane Smith. The terrorists have an agenda. The acts that they have committed, not only here but in the Middle East, the beheadings and burning the Iraqi pilot alive in a cage, are unspeakable. But that does not mean that labelling them "evil" explains why they did what they did.

Number two, refusing to look at why the terrorists did what they did could not change whether the terrorists were good or evil, of course. But it could change the future of the United States. Looking at what the terrorists did and at the political actions that made them possible is the smart route for the United Stares to pursue. So, contrary to what you argue, the United States should be analyzing what caused ISIS to start and to flourish. How else can we avoid future ISISes?

Deb/AGBF

My statements were just general reactions and I have no interest in picking apart the logic of terrorism. I never said that the US shouldn't analyze these types of situations - in fact they should - but that's not my job and that's not what my commentary was about. My post was in response to a particular post about how simply saying that terrorists are evil, is a cop out, which I disagreed with.

momhappy-


I went back and reread kenny's posting (which I remembered). I somehow had not put together that your use of "cop out" was in response to his use of it. Everything makes more sense to me now. Thanks for responding to me.

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

I agree it was a huge mistake to remove Hussien.
Yeah, he sucked but we can't just export our values and system of government.
It's arrogant and self-righteous.
(Oh yeah, "Hussien had weapons of mass destruction." )
GMAFB, US just wants to control access to oil for its SUVs.

America's got a problem.
We're pious and arrogant, so certain our system is superior and it will work everywhere.
Huge people vary fail!

Strongman thugs like Hussien used torture and fear to rule.
Yeah that sucks but it kept things running in that culture.
Removing him and 'installing' a democracy was like putting lipstick on a pig.
(No intent to insult anyone with the term.)

With the strongman removed ISIS coagulated to fill the power vacuum.

Mark my words ... it's about to happen again.
Syrian president Bashar al-Assad is now in the west's crosshairs.
From Wiki, " In 2000 he succeeded Hafez al-Assad, his father, who had led Syria for 30 years until his death.[2]
He was confirmed by the Syrian electorate twice in 2000 and 2007 in referenda that did not include any opposing candidate."

Imagine the monster we'll create if we remove this thug.

 

[Mayk]

The news reports one of the terrorists entered Paris during the early part of October from Syria seeking asylum.

http://www.katc.com/story/30519158/jindal-demands-answers-about-syrian-refugees-arriving-to-louisiana-after-paris-attacks

Well the Refugees are starting to arrive in the US, New Orleans first. Nothing about this makes me feel safer. Coming to a city near you 10,000 Refuges headed to 180 cites. How long before we are reading the headlines about a coordinated attack on US soil?

Make no mistake about motive the radicals that make their way into America want to kill Americans (Infidels). You can give it any reason you want. This is a hard cold fact.

 

[CJ2008]

This is all so scary.

 

[momhappy]

I agree it was a huge mistake to remove Hussien.
Yeah, he sucked but we can't just export our values and system of government.
It's arrogant and self-righteous.
(Oh yeah, "Hussien had weapons of mass destruction." )
GMAFB, US just wants to control access to oil for its SUVs.

America's got a problem.
We're pious and arrogant, so certain our system is superior and it will work everywhere.
Huge people vary fail!

Strongman thugs like Hussien used torture and fear to rule.
Yeah that sucks but it kept things running in that culture.
Removing him and 'installing' a democracy was like putting lipstick on a pig.
(No intent to insult anyone with the term.)

With the strongman removed ISIS coagulated to fill the power vacuum.

Mark my words ... it's about to happen again.
Syrian president Bashar al-Assad is now in the west's crosshairs.
From Wiki, " In 2000 he succeeded Hafez al-Assad, his father, who had led Syria for 30 years until his death.[2]
He was confirmed by the Syrian electorate twice in 2000 and 2007 in referenda that did not include any opposing candidate."

Imagine the monster we'll create if we remove this thug.

kenny, I agree with you that it was probably a huge mistake to remove Hussien, but I think that most can recognize that now (when it was not have been so obvious back then). I don't think that his removal was all about arrogance, but yes, we shouldn't have intervened because no matter how heinous he was, he was still some form of control over there. I would hope that we've learned our lessons when it comes to Assad.

 

[momhappy]

France fights back:
http://live.reuters.com/Event/Paris_attacks_2