More senseless killing in Paris

[AGBF]

This country may be a country of immigrants, but the rules have changed. The world is not the same place any more. Yes, it's sad that a few bad apples have ruined it for the whole bunch, but that's the way it is. It makes me uncomfortable, not knowing, and that means that I can't support relocating them here.

Actually, the world has not changed much at all, momhappy. The reason the The Founding Fathers put into the US Constitution the stipulation that the President of the United States had to be born in the United States was because there was great suspicion that men who were not born here might be traitors who were actually loyal to Great Britain. With every war, there has been suspicion of the people who immigrated to the United States from a country with which the United States was at war. As most people know, this problem was exacerbated when the immigrant group was also a racial minority, which was why there was more discrimination in the United States against the Japanese than against the Germans during World War II. There was discrimination-and domestic espionage-against German-Americans, too, however.

Deb/AGBF

 

[purplesparklies]

First you said:

We are of differing opinions. I will leave it and that.

But then you went on to say:

Oh and I'm not seeking revenge thanks for astute assessment. I would like to protect our country and our citizens.. So I'm a horrible self centered heartless winch who doesn't care about the refugees. I'm good with your analysis of my level of compassion. I'm usually on the outside of most positions here I should know better than to post. Silly me.

I guess you couldn't "leave it like that" after all.

I am wondering what is the purpose of such a post?

 

[momhappy]

This country may be a country of immigrants, but the rules have changed. The world is not the same place any more. Yes, it's sad that a few bad apples have ruined it for the whole bunch, but that's the way it is. It makes me uncomfortable, not knowing, and that means that I can't support relocating them here.

Actually, the world has not changed much at all, momhappy. The reason the The Founding Fathers put into the US Constitution the stipulation that the President of the United States had to be born in the United States was because there was great suspicion that men who were not born here might be traitors who were actually loyal to Great Britain. With every war, there has been suspicion of the people who immigrated to the United States from a country with which the United States was at war. As most people know, this problem was exacerbated when the immigrant group was also a racial minority, which was why there was more discrimination in the United States against the Japanese than against the Germans during World War II. There was discrimination-and domestic espionage-against German-Americans, too, however.

Deb/AGBF

Well then I guess we disagree because I think that the world has changed despite some similarities over the years.

I can't change the way I feel. I am not comfortable with more Syrian immigrants here. If your opinion differs from mine, then that's fine.

 

[purplesparklies]

There are no easy answers here. As a human being, my heart breaks for those who truly are just trying to flee from terror in their homelands. In a perfect world, they would all be innocents who were eager to assimilate and respect American culture. They would be welcomed with open arms and we would all frolic together with the unicorns as we harvested the money that grows on the trees.

However, frustrating as it may be, reality tends to rear it's ugly head. The fact is that some are not innocent. Are they truly being vetted? That is highly debatable and reports vary widely as to the depth and accuracy of the vetting process. Yes, many over the course of history have sought refuge here and endured discrimination. This situation is unique in that the potential for large scale attack(s) is significantly greater because of the weaponry available and the ability of evil doers to communicate to organize thanks to modern technology. These are big issues. Huge consideration when trying to decide how to prepare to defend ourselves.

As a mother, wife, sister, daughter, friend, I am fearful. I am all too aware of the potential risks. I would like to see my president open his eyes to the issues that exist here in our country. We have people here who go without basic needs being met. We have veterans who truly gave everything they had and now find themselves left to flounder on the streets because they have no access to mental health care. This country is in a crisis of it's own and our national debt continues to grow exponentially. In order to care for others, we must first care for ourselves. We can not pour from an empty cup. I lock my doors, not because I hate those who are outside but because I love those who are inside.

 

[ksinger]

Well, I know I'm far more worried about domestic terrorism and being shot up by some disgruntled 20-something white guy in a theatre or mall, than I am of a few thousand vetted Syrian refugees.

You don't need a few thousand terrorists to do big damages, just ask France.

Nor do you need Syrians. I was working in downtown Oklahoma City in 1995, DF. I have my own experience of terrorism, thank you, and it has nothing to do with giving succor to a few brown refugees that we've checked out probably with DNA and cavity searches. Since I have limited energy and time on this earth to spend on fear anymore, I save what I have for being scared of white people. In my experience, they are much more reliable in the public violence department.

 

[LLJsmom]

Every ethnicity that ended up in the US at sometime had a criminal, murderer, evil-doer from that same ethnicity that committed crimes in this country. It is hard for me to throw out the whole ethnicity bc of a few bad ones. I know it's a simplistic way of thinking. However I am an immigrant too. If the US decided to stop letting in immigrants from the country I am from bc of the crimes that the ones that are already in the US committed I would not be here. Given the crimes were not targeted at all ethnic groups, but against those of the same ethnic group, murder is still murder and crime is still crime.

I do fully support using our resources to focus on intelligence gathering and targeting the right individuals and groups. I have confidence that the US is capable of doing that.

 

[AGBF]

First you said:

We are of differing opinions. I will leave it and that.

But then you went on to say:

Oh and I'm not seeking revenge thanks for astute assessment. I would like to protect our country and our citizens.. So I'm a horrible self centered heartless winch who doesn't care about the refugees. I'm good with your analysis of my level of compassion. I'm usually on the outside of most positions here I should know better than to post. Silly me.

I guess you couldn't "leave it like that" after all.

I am wondering what is the purpose of such a post?

Are you honestly wondering or are you attempting to shame me? Because I am not at all ashamed to point out the hypocrisy of a another poster's having said that she would agree to differ, then going on to complain about how unfair Pricescope is to her and her positions.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Jambalaya]

Some people have said that they worry about their friends and family and want to protect their country, so they don't want refugees/immigrants, as a way of helping to ensure their safety from terror attacks.

I think it should be said that the chances of being involved in a terrorist attack in America by these Middle Eastern extremists are infinitesimally small. Tiny. There were approx 3,000 dead in 9/11 and three dead in the Boston bombing. Another 30 or so have been killed since 9/11 in random terror attacks but not all of those were due to Middle Eastern fanatics - other causes include anti-abortion activists, for example. Approx 35,000 people are killed on the road every year. 9/11 and the Boston bombings have spanned a period of fourteen years up till now. In that time, approx 490,000 people have died on the roads, while around 3,033 have died in terrorist attacks. Your chances of dying in a road accident are therefore 161 times higher than dying in a terrorist attack, yet you continue to get in your car multiple times each day, and no one is talking about banning cars.

Put another way, the death toll of 3,033 divided by 14 years is 216.64 terrorist deaths a year. Divide our 300m population by that number of deaths and your chances of dying in a terror attack each year are 1 in 1.38 million. But your chances of dying in a road accident each year are 1 in 8,571, and yet we still drive everywhere.

Those terrorist figures are obviously inflated by 9/11. Without that, we're talking about approx 30 terrorist deaths in a span of 12 years, at which point your annual chances of dying in a terror attack dwindle to almost nothing. If I'd taken my figures from the last ten years instead of the last 14, that's what they would show.

So even with 9/11, your chances of death in a terrorist attack are almost 1 in 1.2 million per year at the most, based on the last 14 years, and just about nothing based on the last 13 years. Basically the chances of you dying by terrorism are extremely small so any extra protection you gain by shutting out refugees is also that small. You gain almost nothing by turning them away, but they lose everything - every hope for a better life.

If terrorists wanted to make everyone so afraid that people turn against one another, pull up their drawbridges and reverse global society so we all sit isolated in our own countries fearing one another, they're doing an excellent job!

 

[Dancing Fire]

So even with 9/11, your chances of death in a terrorist attack are almost 1 in 1.2 million per year at the most, based on the last 14 years, and just about nothing based on the last 13 years. Basically the chances of you dying by terrorism are extremely small so any extra protection you gain by shutting out refugees is also that small. You gain almost nothing by turning them away, but they lose everything - every hope for a better life.

So you wanna increase odds?...

 

[purplesparklies]

[/quote]

Are you honestly wondering or are you attempting to shame me? Because I am not at all ashamed to point out the hypocrisy of a another poster's having said that she would agree to differ, then going on to complain about how unfair Pricescope is to her and her positions.

Deb/AGBF[/quote]

I was honestly wondering. Now it is clear that you were trying to shame the individual who posted and you are proud to have attempted to do so. I am not sure that you have accomplished that which you set out to do but to each his/her own, I suppose.

Pricescope is absolutely skewed one direction, politically speaking. Posters who share opinions which are counter to the majority here are definitely treated differently than those whose opinions are aligned with the majority. There are some who seem to feel it is their duty as some sort of self-appointed Pricescope police to relentlessly pick at anyone who dare express an opinion which opposes their own, obviously superior opinion. I think those who are gifted with the ability to engage in respectful discourse without attacking others are rare but those are the people who are able to bring about a change of hearts and minds. The badgerers and shamers do neither themselves nor their platforms any favors, in my opinion.

 

[purplesparklies]

Jambalaya, I agree that the statistics are currently in our favor and it would seem that we should all be more fearful of our own vehicles than we should be of terrorists. We have been very fortunate thus far to have the military intelligence to allow our armed forces to thwart previous attempts. As we all rest peacefully in our beds each night, all tucked in nice and cozy, there are those who watch over the world. There are watchers and listeners. There are interpreters and decipherers. There are those who lay in wait with their finger on the trigger. Thanks to those people, we can be more afraid of our daily commute than we are of radical jihadists. I fear those whose dying wish it will be to eradicate civilization as I know it. I pray that our military forces stay one step ahead of them. I pray for the families and friends of those who have lost their lives in the fight to stay one step ahead and I pray for the families and friends of those who were the few to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. To them, it is not just a statistically small number who were killed. For too many, the price has already been too high. I do not fear my daily commute because neither my own nor the other vehicles on the road are searching for the opportunity to eliminate me, my family and my way of life. I hope that you continue to be able to discuss the statistics so casually.

 

[AGBF]

Pricescope is absolutely skewed one direction, politically speaking. Posters who share opinions which are counter to the majority here are definitely treated differently than those whose opinions are aligned with the majority. There are some who seem to feel it is their duty as some sort of self-appointed Pricescope police to relentlessly pick at anyone who dare express an opinion which opposes their own, obviously superior opinion.

The majority of posters on Pricescope are not liberals. You must have been listening to Dancing Fire. From what I read here, many people are scared of Bernie Sanders, for Pete's sake. This is not exactly the Communist Party Headquarters. It is terrible, though, how some of us who post our left -of-center opinions dare to challenge the conservatives. It should be called "badgering". Oh, wait! It's also called, "freedom of speech"! Even we left-wingers are still allowed to talk!

Deb/AGBF

 

[missy]

I don't think we should turn away innocent people who need refuge in the USA. However, I think we need to be super careful about who we let in and also about keeping an eye on anyone and everyone we have questions about without being hindered by those liberals who would cry about us limiting freedoms here. Living in this country is a privilege and if we provide shelter and food and a home for people fleeing their countries certainly we have the right to protect everyone who lives here. There is a price to be paid for safety and peace of mind and to that end we need to do all that is reasonable to ensure the safety of all who live here.

Deb, you know I love you but I think you have been a bit harsh with MayK. I agree with what MayK wrote because it is coming from a sense of heartfelt emotion and love for this country and the people that live here. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be/to feel safe in one's country. I think that the Middle Eastern countries (and other countries) need to do more. It always does fall to the USA and I feel everyone in this world needs to do their part.

Karen, I agree with some of your views but would like to add that while home grown terrorists are certainly a threat please never diminish the threat that others outside of this country want to inflict on the USA and other countries. Just because you feel home grown terrorism is a bigger threat doesn't mean we shouldn't do all we can that is reasonable to protect this country from all terrorism. I was 2 blocks from the World Trade Centers when 9/11 happened and I will *never* forget that day. It feels like yesterday in some respects and the horror, the nightmare that still continues for all those affected that day. It can happen again and we cannot be too vigilant.

 

[momhappy]

Some people have said that they worry about their friends and family and want to protect their country, so they don't want refugees/immigrants, as a way of helping to ensure their safety from terror attacks.

I think it should be said that the chances of being involved in a terrorist attack in America by these Middle Eastern extremists are infinitesimally small. Tiny. There were approx 3,000 dead in 9/11 and three dead in the Boston bombing. Another 30 or so have been killed since 9/11 in random terror attacks but not all of those were due to Middle Eastern fanatics - other causes include anti-abortion activists, for example. Approx 35,000 people are killed on the road every year. 9/11 and the Boston bombings have spanned a period of fourteen years up till now. In that time, approx 490,000 people have died on the roads, while around 3,033 have died in terrorist attacks. Your chances of dying in a road accident are therefore 161 times higher than dying in a terrorist attack, yet you continue to get in your car multiple times each day, and no one is talking about banning cars.

Put another way, the death toll of 3,033 divided by 14 years is 216.64 terrorist deaths a year. Divide our 300m population by that number of deaths and your chances of dying in a terror attack each year are 1 in 1.38 million. But your chances of dying in a road accident each year are 1 in 8,571, and yet we still drive everywhere.

Those terrorist figures are obviously inflated by 9/11. Without that, we're talking about approx 30 terrorist deaths in a span of 12 years, at which point your annual chances of dying in a terror attack dwindle to almost nothing. If I'd taken my figures from the last ten years instead of the last 14, that's what they would show.

So even with 9/11, your chances of death in a terrorist attack are almost 1 in 1.2 million per year at the most, based on the last 14 years, and just about nothing based on the last 13 years. Basically the chances of you dying by terrorism are extremely small so any extra protection you gain by shutting out refugees is also that small. You gain almost nothing by turning them away, but they lose everything - every hope for a better life.

If terrorists wanted to make everyone so afraid that people turn against one another, pull up their drawbridges and reverse global society so we all sit isolated in our own countries fearing one another, they're doing an excellent job!

I agree with you, Jambalaya - the chances are incredibly small. The chances are also extremely slim that one would be involved in an incident involving a firearm, despite the fact that the media makes us think/feel otherwise. I can understand and appreciate those numbers, but the fear still exists (just as the danger still exists). I still believe that there is a slim possibility that (more) terrorists will attempt to enter this country as Syrian refugees. I realize that there are already terrorists among us, but why allow/encourage more? I don't know that we have the capabilities and/or the resources to properly screen (with 100% certainty) each and every one before and after their transition here.

 

[AGBF]

Deb, you know I love you but I think you have been a bit harsh with MayK. I agree with what MayK wrote because it is coming from a sense of heartfelt emotion and love for this country and the people that live here.

I am sorry that you feel this way, missy, because I have infinite respect for your opinions. I would like to apologize here to MayK if I was rude. However, I would also like to say that I take great care with my postings (most of the time). Words are very important to me. I try to write thoughtfully. When someone else then, casually misquotes me (as MayK did) I am not happy about it. I dislike seeing my words, and, therefore the intent of my speech, twisted.

MayK wrote:

" So I'm a horrible self centered heartless winch who doesn't care about the refugees. I'm good with your analysis of my level of compassion. I'm usually on the outside of most positions here I should know better than to post. Silly me."

Nowhere did I call MayK "a horrible, self-centered, heartless witch who doesn't care about the refugees". I really disliked having her use words other than mine with which to make her point. She then went on to say that she should have known better than to post, implying that when her opinions met with opposition, that it was unfair. purplesparklies just touted the virtues of civil discourse above. In my opinion, civil discourse consists of people being able to tolerate meeting opposition to their viewpoints (as MayK did) without complaining that everyone is against him. I believe that a complaint that everyone is against him is really a way of implying that the person with the opposing viewpoint is a bully. It is almost name-calling. It diverts people from the issues. Doing that is unnecessary if one really wants to stick with rational arguments and not engage in name calling.

Believe it or not, like MayK, I have feelings. I felt that she was attempting to paint me as someone who had called her names which I never did and never would and then painted me as a bully. I really didn't like that.

Deb/AGBF

 

[missy]

I apologize in advance for speaking for others but hope you both (Deb and MayK) understand when I write that I know both of you are wonderful amazing smart women and that neither of you meant to hurt the other.

It is hard on a forum to convey meaning/tones/messages about sensitive subjects and I think that is what happened here. A miscommunication based on not seeing the other in person while discussing this topic. Not being able to hear tone/see facial expressions etc. Again I apologize for speaking for anyone other than myself but because I love both of you and know both of you are wonderful people and not as far apart as you might seem I just wanted to chime in from my perspective.

This is a serious and challenging issue with no easy answers. None of us want to turn away people in need but there are many factors that need to be taken into account and it is good to hear all different viewpoints as that is the birthplace of good ideas. Brainstorming by people with different ideas and opposing views. That is the way the best solution may be found.

 

[arkieb1]

Australia is taking 10 000 refugees to start with. Our authorities are taking people that have been displaced by the fighting and persecuted by groups like Isis first. American and Australia are different to Europe, we triple identity check who enters our countries we screen them, many boarder sites in Europe were not screening these people that well.

So in theory someone who is already in Europe that can now legitimately go to the US is more likely to be a terrorist than someone amongst the refugees that will be coming to our countries screened. Any member of our society from any walk of life and take up the cause and become radicalised. My country was built on immigrants, so was yours. We should not forget that.

A summary from an Aussie journalist that I hope you will all watch;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmKpm_9BtHc

If we succumb to being scared of each other and to hatred and fear then we are playing into the terrorists hands.

 

[missy]

We need to guide and assist but also step back from such a leadership role that always seems to fall to the USA. What I think would be a good start is to take male Syrian refugees of fighting age and have them fight against ISIS, just like our young men have been drafted in the past to go fight a battle for others. These young men would be fighting for their homeland and therefore have more meaning to them. You can't fight for someone else's freedom and just "give them democracy." They won't appreciate it and they won't be able to sustain it.

It's funny. We are always asked for help but many people all over the world despise us yet they still come to us when they need help. No good deed...

Interesting NY Times article.


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/opinion/to-have-paris-defeat-isis.html?_r=0

 

[Jambalaya]

Purplesparklies - I don't understand why you think I was casually discussing numbers. The numbers are real and I was not being casual. Of course to anyone whose loved one has died in a terror attack, the numbers are too high. The fact of me posting the numbers here does not mean I don't realize that. I have been terribly bereaved in my life, too, so don't tell me I am not sympathetic to the families who have lost, just because I try to inject some common sense about just how unlikely it is that anyone here will die in a terror attack.

 

[Jambalaya]

So even with 9/11, your chances of death in a terrorist attack are almost 1 in 1.2 million per year at the most, based on the last 14 years, and just about nothing based on the last 13 years. Basically the chances of you dying by terrorism are extremely small so any extra protection you gain by shutting out refugees is also that small. You gain almost nothing by turning them away, but they lose everything - every hope for a better life.

So you wanna increase odds?...

The increase would be so small it would be invisible to the naked eye - if there is any increase at all, which is far from sure. According to Government statistics the road deaths are actually in the forty thousands, not thirty thousands, so your odds of dying in a car accident are more like 1 in 6700 per year, as opposed to 1 in almost 1.4million for a terror attack. Come on...

And if you take out 9/11, the chances of being involved in a terror attack are really nothing. In France, since 9/11, about 140 people have died because of Middle Eastern fanatics. In that 14-year timespan, that's 14 people per year, out of a population of 66 million.

So I repeat, the chances of dying in a terror attack are minuscule. The homicide rate is also much, much less than the road death rate. The biggest potential killer in your life is sitting on your driveway!

 

[Jambalaya]

We are assuming that accepting Syrian refugees automatically raises our risk of terrorism because some of them might be terrorists. That's a huge "if". The refugees are screened and the government knows where they are living. The terrorists are achieving their aim of making us close our hearts to the suffering of others due to our own fear. Many of us are too afraid to help the genuine refugees now. The images on the TV are appalling and of course it is very frightening, and so tempting to act on that fear, but personally I think we should try to get a grip on our fear because that's what the terrorists want - for us to be afraid and to change the way we act. This country, and many other Western countries, have always helped people who are less fortunate than us, and I don't think terrorism should let us change that way of life. The chances of dying in a terror attack are really, really, really small but the Syrian refugees are suffering terribly every minute.

 

[Jambalaya]

I also want to say that there has always been violence wherever there have been humans. The Romans used to throw the Christians to the lions. In the Middle Ages there were the Holy Wars, and in recent times Europe had the Basque separatists, Britain the IRA, and now we have these crazy fanatics, not to mention the First World War and the Second World War. What previous generations went through in those two wars dwarfs the scale of the current terrorism.

Wherever there are humans, a very small number will be mass killers, unfortunately. I try to practice the "keep calm and carry on" line of thinking, although of course I feel scared sometimes, too.

 

[telephone89]

I am so unbelievably saddened by some of the incredibly bigoted posts this has evolved into.

There are something like 1.6 billion muslims in the world, and only 0.003% are 'extremist terrorists'. I can't believe people on here would be willing to throw all those souls away to save themselves from 0.003%. If your neighbor wad dying and you knew that you could save them, but there was a 0.003% chance the house would cave in, would you not try? Or would it only matter if they were an immigrant that was dying?

 

[Jambalaya]

I agree with you, Jambalaya - the chances are incredibly small. The chances are also extremely slim that one would be involved in an incident involving a firearm, despite the fact that the media makes us think/feel otherwise. I can understand and appreciate those numbers, but the fear still exists (just as the danger still exists). I still believe that there is a slim possibility that (more) terrorists will attempt to enter this country as Syrian refugees. I realize that there are already terrorists among us, but why allow/encourage more? I don't know that we have the capabilities and/or the resources to properly screen (with 100% certainty) each and every one before and after their transition here.

It's a difficult and complex issue, isn't it, Momhappy. I know it's all very well for me to say that statistically the chances of X happening are really small but to the person it happens to, the chances turned out to be 100%. I think part of the fear is that the attacks are so random. In Paris, the location apparently wasn't even a tourist area but an area full of locals and not near the center. You just never know where or when they are going to appear next, but that's part of the fear they are trying to instill. I'm trying to calm any fear I might feel with common sense and numbers, but I think everyone is probably scared by these appalling attacks. I feel it's important to try not to give in to it, though.

 

[Jambalaya]

Telephone - I big-fluffy-heart love you. You said what I wanted to say with so much more eloquence and intelligence.

 

[chemgirl]

My issue here is where do we draw the line? It's easy for this anti immigration sentiment to turn against people who are already here.

Yesterday a local woman was attacked while picking her children up from school. The attackers grabbed her by her head scarf, punched her in the face and stomach, and told her to "go back to your own country."

Disgusting, but banning immigration justifies people like this.

 

[telephone89]

Jambalaya: <3<3 I feel so strongly about this, being that my partners parents were muslim immigrants so many years ago. So much of Canada and the USA is made up of immigrants, it seems so un-Canadian and un-American to want to start closing borders.

My issue here is where do we draw the line? It's easy for this anti immigration sentiment to turn against people who are already here.

Yesterday a local woman was attacked while picking her children up from school. The attackers grabbed her by her head scarf, punched her in the face and stomach, and told her to "go back to your own country."

Disgusting, but banning immigration justifies people like this.

100% agree. That is so so terrible. I also feel for the petersborough folk who lost their mosque due to arson. And the Sikh temple that someone vandalized (that one is almost worse - they're so dumb they don't even know which religion they're 'mad' at!)

 

[kenny]

Yesterday a local woman was attacked while picking her children up from school. The attackers grabbed her by her head scarf, punched her in the face and stomach, and told her to "go back to your own country."

How horrible!
This makes me sick!

Unfortunately this is the kind of story with legs.
It'll be picked up and used to paint all Americans as bigots.

I really hope the percentage of Americans who are acting-out-violent bigots is tiny like the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists.

 

[missy]

Yesterday a local woman was attacked while picking her children up from school. The attackers grabbed her by her head scarf, punched her in the face and stomach, and told her to "go back to your own country."

How horrible!
This makes me sick!

Unfortunately this is the kind of story with legs.
It'll be picked up and used to paint all Americans as bigots.

I really hope the percentage of Americans who are acting-out-violent bigots is tiny like the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists.

Exactly. Just as it is a tiny percentage of refugees we have to worry about the same goes for atrocious behavior like this. Most Americans do not act or feel this this way.

 

[chemgirl]

Yesterday a local woman was attacked while picking her children up from school. The attackers grabbed her by her head scarf, punched her in the face and stomach, and told her to "go back to your own country."

How horrible!
This makes me sick!

Unfortunately this is the kind of story with legs.
It'll be picked up and used to paint all Americans as bigots.

I really hope the percentage of Americans who are acting-out-violent bigots is tiny like the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists.

Nothing to worry about because the attack happened in Canada! Yey?

In the UK, a Muslim woman was pushed into a train yesterday. Luckily she bounced off the side of the train and fell back on the platform.

Again it's extremism.