My New DIL Thinks I'm a MONSTER

[Autumnovember]

I have another thought on the matter. Maybe she thinks your relationship with your son is inappropriate in some way. I'm not saying it is, just trying to give you some ideas on where the foundation in this matter may be.

EXCUSE ME? What thread have you been reading?

Simmer down. I'm trying to HELP you. As I said, "I'm not saying it is," I'm just looking for unexplored paths here. My thought was perhaps she's trying to distance your son from you because she doesn't like your relationship with him in some way. Maybe you're too involved, too matriarchal, too sweet, too touchy, who knows? She very obviously doesn't like you. Just trying to figure out why.

Since I've offended you so badly (which was not my intention) I'll bow out of this thread now.

Shiny, my initial thought was the same as hers but I think what you've said makes a lot of sense and its very very possible that she feels that way along with a trait that is a bit controlling.

Again, the tighter you hold on the harder this girl is going to pull. Step back from it and let it go for a while.

I think she jumped to conclusions and assumed just like I did and was quick to express her opinion on it instead of waiting until you elaborated on it. You have good advice to offer, Shiny.

 

[TravelingGal]

iLander, we're several pages into this thread and the thing that just sticks out to me is your insistence that it is HER that is the issue. Lots of stories to illustrate that she's crazy. Meanwhile, you seem to believe you are innocent of being any sort of issue whatsoever.

You. Really. Dislike. Her. If I'm getting that from a few pages on an Internet forum, don't you think she's getting that vibe from you too?

ETA, should have read "SHE, who is". If I think about that too hard, I'll come back to correct that again!

 

[KimberlyH]

iLander, we're several pages into this thread and the thing that just sticks out to me is your insistence that it is HER that is the issue. Lots of stories to illustrate that she's crazy. Meanwhile, you seem to believe you are innocent of being any sort of issue whatsoever.

You. Really. Dislike. Her. If I'm getting that from a few pages on an Internet forum, don't you think she's getting that vibe from you too?

Ding ding ding!

I dated a guy for 4 years whose mom said she wanted the relationship you describe with me, but she really disliked me. So we'd go shopping and hang out and the whole time I'd be uncomfortable and afraid of saying or doing something to set her off. It was complicated and difficult and when their 13 year old neighbor stated to me in private "My parents just don't understand why B doesn't like you!" I was mortified. Their relationship was inappropriate in my eyes and he always sided with his mom, we never would have lasted as a result, in fact we didn't. There was no right or wrong, just two people who didn't understand each other and one of us had to back down. For the sake of their marriage, no matter what you think of her, that should be you, because ultimately your son chose her and you should want him to be happy.

 

[blueiris]

I seriously doubt that anything we would have done differently would have made a difference in our situation. From the beginning of the "bad times", we now believe this person had the goal of alienating us and getting us out of his life. Due to the circumstances, the situation was entirely out of our hands. He had complete control over everything, and he used it.

I've never known someone so completely self-centered and passive aggressive, and it was a shock to me. A counselor I met with for help told me that it was like he was speaking a different language, one I had never encountered before. She said that it was no wonder we had no idea how to deal with him and his appalling insensitivity and selfishness, because we'd never dealt with someone like that before. He appeared to feel no remorse, no regret, no shame; it was as if, from his viewpoint, he was entirely justified in doing whatever he wanted and saying whatever he wanted, and we were just supposed to put up with it and accept whatever he did, without a word. We tried that for a while, because so much was at stake for us, but after months of anxiety and no sleep and palpitations and incessant worry, we just couldn't do it any longer.

I hope this doesn't scare you or discourage you; our situation is quite different than yours. The similarity is that we both are dealing/have dealt with a person who seems to have significant issues that impact everyone around them - when you first posted, an "alarm bell" went off while I was reading, because your DIL's comments and behavior seemed all too familiar in their tone and self-centeredness. And your further comments on what she has said (or not said) and how she has behaved before this latest incident have added to those alarm bells. I hope your DIL somehow changes her behavior, and if that can't happen, then I hope you can find the strength to do what you can to learn to live with the situation. Maybe once they've been married longer, things will improve. I hope so!

 

[zhuzhu]

Caharabehra, NatyLad, packrat, aolfe, jewelfreak, LGK, blue iris,

You all seem to have your own scary stories of odd relatives. (for those of you just coming in, page 3 has a lot of these stories, but they are throughout the thread) I want to send you my deepest sympathy and heartfelt best wishes. Your stories clarified a lot of her weird moments for me; I think she might be controlling . . .or some other form of crazy . . .

How did your stories go? How did they end? Any happy endings? Anything you wished you had done differently? How do I handle this one?

Thanks, autumnovember, I am puzzled too. . .

ILander,

My MIL is not scary or crazy, but we are not close and I do not think I will ever feel close to her or want to be close to her. I do think that I can provide you perspectives on how a so called "non-affectionate" DIL thinks, and what works to keep everyone satisfied.

I hope you will understand that it is not constructive to label your DIL as "crazy" or "bitch" this early in your relationship with her. It does not matter how nice you act in front of her, if you are thinking these terms about her inside, she will sense it no matter how much you cover them up with your sweet MIL pleads.

She may feel uncomfortable with you for many reasons that you don't know, certainly none of us online people can possibly know. She will only share them with you if she trusts you, and the way your interactions have been definitely make her trust you even LESS. However it may not matter what the reasons are because ultimately her priority is your son and not you. Let the past be done with and move on. Respect her needs for space and their couplehood. Be an adult and show her by example that adult relationship is not a forced one. She will come to you eventually (her words), but you can't do anything to force the acceleration of that process.

You have done a very nice thing to give all of you time to cool off. Let the next interaction be on neutral terms. Send her holiday greeting cards and birthday wishes. Do not cry or beg her to "be close" to you. Why would you want that since you don't like her anyways?

Family members can have a healthy relationship without being a close-knit family. The key to keeping it healthy is to allow them to be within their comfort zone. No more forceful "love" showered on them. Just let them know that you care for them and think about them periodically. Give them time and space to build their own family.

 

[Aoife]

Caharabehra, NatyLad, packrat, aolfe, jewelfreak, LGK, blue iris,

You all seem to have your own scary stories of odd relatives. (for those of you just coming in, page 3 has a lot of these stories, but they are throughout the thread) I want to send you my deepest sympathy and heartfelt best wishes. Your stories clarified a lot of her weird moments for me; I think she might be controlling . . .or some other form of crazy . . .

How did your stories go? How did they end? Any happy endings? Anything you wished you had done differently? How do I handle this one?

Thanks, autumnovember, I am puzzled too. . .

Oh, there's lots of crazy in my family (it's one of our best traits ) but not like yours with the spouse of one of my children. However, I have seen this dynamic close up with a couple of close friends, one acquaintance, and one of my DD's friends. Having seen/experienced it once, it's not something you'll ever mistake for "Oh, it's just a big misunderstanding" ever again. The problem is when you try to apply the usual rules, or logic, the way so many posters on this thread are trying to, which usually means that they come around to thinking It Must be Something You're Doing. So if there is one thing I wish we had done differently with my DD's friend, it would be to have accepted early on that expecting a reasonable reaction from this person was unrealistic. You have lots of red flags already about the way your new DIL is likely to operate. The fact that she's already separated him from his friends, he's geographically isolated from family, and she's managed to drive an emotional wedge between him and the rest of his family is SOP. And I haven't forgotten the whole thing with her forcing him to eat food he didn't want, which is one of the most disturbing details you mentioned. It sounds to me like you've already formulated a good response, and that's probably the best you can do. Try to keep your eye on the objective (not losing your son), and try to avoid at all costs being drawn into any drama.

I'll really be keeping my fingers crossed for a happy resolution for you and for your son. In my experience, how the story ends depends a lot on what drew the individuals together in the first place, and what they are each getting out of the relationship.

 

[iLander]

I seriously doubt that anything we would have done differently would have made a difference in our situation. From the beginning of the "bad times", we now believe this person had the goal of alienating us and getting us out of his life. Due to the circumstances, the situation was entirely out of our hands. He had complete control over everything, and he used it.

I've never known someone so completely self-centered and passive aggressive, and it was a shock to me. A counselor I met with for help told me that it was like he was speaking a different language, one I had never encountered before. She said that it was no wonder we had no idea how to deal with him and his appalling insensitivity and selfishness, because we'd never dealt with someone like that before. He appeared to feel no remorse, no regret, no shame; it was as if, from his viewpoint, he was entirely justified in doing whatever he wanted and saying whatever he wanted, and we were just supposed to put up with it and accept whatever he did, without a word. We tried that for a while, because so much was at stake for us, but after months of anxiety and no sleep and palpitations and incessant worry, we just couldn't do it any longer.

I hope this doesn't scare you or discourage you; our situation is quite different than yours. The similarity is that we both are dealing/have dealt with a person who seems to have significant issues that impact everyone around them - when you first posted, an "alarm bell" went off while I was reading, because your DIL's comments and behavior seemed all too familiar in their tone and self-centeredness. And your further comments on what she has said (or not said) and how she has behaved before this latest incident have added to those alarm bells. I hope your DIL somehow changes her behavior, and if that can't happen, then I hope you can find the strength to do what you can to learn to live with the situation. Maybe once they've been married longer, things will improve. I hope so!

So sorry you went through this! Sounds like hell! Did the counselor give you any tips? Is this person still in your life?

 

[iLander]

Caharabehra, NatyLad, packrat, aolfe, jewelfreak, LGK, blue iris,

You all seem to have your own scary stories of odd relatives. (for those of you just coming in, page 3 has a lot of these stories, but they are throughout the thread) I want to send you my deepest sympathy and heartfelt best wishes. Your stories clarified a lot of her weird moments for me; I think she might be controlling . . .or some other form of crazy . . .

How did your stories go? How did they end? Any happy endings? Anything you wished you had done differently? How do I handle this one?

Thanks, autumnovember, I am puzzled too. . .

Oh, there's lots of crazy in my family (it's one of our best traits ) but not like yours with the spouse of one of my children. However, I have seen this dynamic close up with a couple of close friends, one acquaintance, and one of my DD's friends. Having seen/experienced it once, it's not something you'll ever mistake for "Oh, it's just a big misunderstanding" ever again. The problem is when you try to apply the usual rules, or logic, the way so many posters on this thread are trying to, which usually means that they come around to thinking It Must be Something You're Doing. So if there is one thing I wish we had done differently with my DD's friend, it would be to have accepted early on that expecting a reasonable reaction from this person was unrealistic. You have lots of red flags already about the way your new DIL is likely to operate. The fact that she's already separated him from his friends, he's geographically isolated from family, and she's managed to drive an emotional wedge between him and the rest of his family is SOP. And I haven't forgotten the whole thing with her forcing him to eat food he didn't want, which is one of the most disturbing details you mentioned. It sounds to me like you've already formulated a good response, and that's probably the best you can do. Try to keep your eye on the objective (not losing your son), and try to avoid at all costs being drawn into any drama.

I'll really be keeping my fingers crossed for a happy resolution for you and for your son. In my experience, how the story ends depends a lot on what drew the individuals together in the first place, and what they are each getting out of the relationship.

Thanks, Aoifi, "keep out of the drama", I'll keep that in mind.

 

[that_someone_special]

This thread is getting... nuts.

 

[Aoife]

[
Thanks, Aoifi, "keep out of the drama", I'll keep that in mind.

Yeah, I know. If only it were that easy, right?

 

[zhuzhu]

This thread is getting... nuts.

No kidding.
Talking about drama, huh?

 

[elleaney]

Ilander.... maybe you and your DIL are not as different as you think. It seems as though you are now completely ignoring/refusing to acknowledge posters who are offering up possible underlying circumstances which could explain why DIL is acting this way. Could this be because you are feeling attacked, or feeling misunderstood? Maybe this will help in relating to her in the future?

Good luck.

 

[CNOS128]

I gave you some advice (back on pg. 5) which I still think is very good advice, but which you seem to have ignored -- that's cool, you can ignore what you want. (Although frankly, some acknowledgment would have been nice.) No matter; I'm starting to think that you don't really want productive advice, and that you're just enjoying the drama of the situation. That's also your decision to make if that's what you want to do.

But, I still wish you good luck in achieving your goal, whatever that may be.

 

[lucyandroger]

iLander, I am so sorry that you are going through this. Your DIL does sound a bit strange. There is clearly a lot going on here besides the wedding incident but I also wouldn't discount the wedding's importance.

I'm getting married in 6 months so I'm in that "the wedding is the most important day of our lives and everything has to be perfect" phase so maybe my thoughts will be helpful (and maybe not!). I would be absolutely crushed if my MIL and FIL left my wedding, especially if it was a small gathering of 12 people. No doubt the entire conversation while you were in the bathroom and after you left was about where you were and then if you were okay. I KNOW this is NOT your fault because you were sick...but, it does seem that her wedding was...maybe not ruined...but also not as she had hoped and planned. Rather than a celebration of their love, people may have been concerned about your whereabouts and your health (again, not your fault but still something that happened).

Sooo, if I were your DIL and knew that you already didn't like me before the wedding, I may have thought that you tried to ruin my wedding day and I may have expressed those thoughts to my new husband. It's an emotional time and there are so many hopes and expectations wrapped up in it. I know there was nothing you could do and you have already apologized but maybe it will just take time or a recognition of DIL's feelings about the wedding. Maybe when things are on better terms, you could throw them another dinner in celebration of their marriage...

 

[missy]

Sigh, what a hot mess this is.

ILander, I think you have received some excellent advice here. The situation is not easy but the best you can do is give them time and space all the while being pleasant and respectful.

I was never welcomed into my dh's family for various reasons having all to do with them and not me at all (took me a few years to truly realize and own this fact though). But for the longest time I tried so hard to fit in with them and I was nothing but loving and respectful. After 5 plus years of dealing with their crap I gave up and started doing things on my terms. And wouldn't you know it my MIL is actually starting to be warmer towards me. Took 6 more years though. All I'm saying is that it took me saying no more crap and a couple of years of not seeing his family for his mom to start being nice towards me. Unfortunately we still don't have a relationship with one of my dh's brother's and his wife but hopefully in time things will become better there too.

Part of the issue is that all families and all family dynamics are different and our reference points usually come from how our families do things and deal with issues. My dh's family always dealt (and still does sadly) with issues by ignoring and sweeping under the rug and pretending all is OK. My family is hands on and emotional. When stuff comes up we deal with it. If we have a problem with someone we talk to that person and try to work it out. Well, that doesn't fly in my dh's family and when I tried to deal with what was happening with his mom and brother and his brother's wife it backfired as his mother really became offended that I thought something was amiss and pretended nothing was wrong so I must be crazy and etc etc.

Fast forward 6 years later and we are starting to see each other and even enjoy each other's company somewhat. But this didn't happen on my timeline or on hers. Time and distance and space does have a way of helping these sort of things if you do not hold grudges that is. And believe me I had plenty of reason to hold grudges here but I let it go for the sake of doing the right thing. I love my dh and it was so painful dealing with his family and their dislike (even dare I say it hate) of me but I tried and tried anyway till I got fed up and my dh also got fed up. And only then, after we put time and space b/w us and them did things start getting better. His mom is never going to change who she is just like I am never going to change who I am but we are learning to speak each other's language (figuratively) and slowly but surely making things better b/w us.

My heart goes out to you and I hope things get better. But remember it may take time and in the meanwhile be pleasant in all your interactions with her but don't try to change her to be the DIL you want her to be. That just won't work. And your son will always be your son no matter what. Call him and keep the lines of communication open with him at least. Don't stand on ceremony. One of the things that really hurt my dh was that his mom was never the one to call him. And then she complained to me (of all people) that he never calls her. My dh btw is the nicest and most respectful man I know and always treated his mom with the utmost respect and chivalry and love. It was only after really getting pissed off at her behavior towards me that he retreated as he needed time and space. But the one thing that would have made a difference (to my dh) would have been if his mom had bothered to actually pick up the phone and call him. She hardly ever did. In any case I kept urging my dh to keep the lines of communication open with his mom regardless of my relationship with her and that is what I am urging you to do. Call your son and email him and just be there for him. Without judgment and without reserve.

Hugs to you and hang in there. My heart really goes out to you and your family.

 

[iLander]

Hi iLander,
I've experienced my own difficulties with in-laws, but I won't suggest that my relatives are like yours. I will, however, pass on the advice that worked best for me. You need to be confident in the fact that you've done what you can do and have behaved in a way that you find appropriate. Stop apologizing already; you've already done it and it hasn't had the desired effect.

Crazy (I use this term colloquially, I'm not saying your DIL has a diagnosis) people do crazy things, and they will always act in a way that seems crazy. It's good for all of us to learn to accept this, because then we stop getting upset about it every time it happens. Change your expectations about DIL. She is going to say things that seem weird to you and she is going to act in a way that you find unfriendly/hostile/odd/whatever. But dwelling on all your interactions and her behavior and going back and rehashing every conversation is just making you miserable.

You should do what you can to try to keep up your relationship with your son, but it may not be possible right now. As others have said, though, if this woman is really crazy, your son will realize it eventually. And then you'll be there to tell him "I told you so" and hug him and find him a suitable mate. I suggest that you keep inviting them to holidays, meals, etc. even if they don't come. Don't be overbearing or confrontational or threatening, but let them know you want them around (you're doing this for your son's sake, not for DIL's). No more apologizing, crying, or questioning. If I were you, when and if I saw DIL and DS again, I'd just pretend everything was A-OK and go about my day in a normal way. Getting upset only hurts you, and it doesn't help much of anything.

Sorry that I didn't react to this earlier BigT, the whole thread is getting a little overwhelming. I sincerely hope he realizes it eventually. I hate to see anyone divorce, but I hate to see people live in a bad marriage too. I'm going to pretend it's all A-OK.

 

[blueiris]

[quote="iLander]

So sorry you went through this! Sounds like hell! Did the counselor give you any tips? Is this person still in your life?[/quote]

Other than to try to preserve our own health and sanity, she said there wasn't much we could do because he was so completely in control. She talked about choices. We could choose to accept that he was like this and acknowledge that he was in control and that we would take things entirely on the terms he dictated because of that; or we could choose not to accept that. We tried for a while to be completely neutral, not push him, just backed off. But his own issues and wants and desires were always what was driving him, and in the end that dictated everything. He wanted us out of his life, and he made sure it happened. (Again, it was a completely different situation than yours.) I believe that he's not really capable of thinking of anyone but himself, but he put on a good front for a while until his real character became apparent. No, he's not in our lives any more.

 

[zhuzhu]

Sorry that I didn't react to this earlier BigT, the whole thread is getting a little overwhelming. I sincerely hope he realizes it eventually. I hate to see anyone divorce, but I hate to see people live in a bad marriage too. I'm going to pretend it's all A-OK.

You hope your son realizes what eventually? That your DIL is crazy?

Please, please please, be careful what you wish for. If you continue the labeling and believing the worst of her, the worst of her will become your reality and you will lose all capability to appreciate her for her nice qualities. Do you really want so much hate in your heart for your son's wife?

Try to exercise some positive attitudes here and you will be pleasantly surprised to learn how people are really not as bad as you make them out to be.

 

[Circe]

I'm sort of echoing TheBigT here, but, hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

iLander, you're taking careful note of everything your DIL has done wrong (which, admittedly, is pretty heavy), but I haven't heard anything acknowledging that you might not have played things entirely right yourself. You sure as hell don't owe the internets an explanation, but I'm hoping that somewhere in your head, you're aware that maybe trying to force somebody into an emotional reaction they're not having is prone to backfire, and that subjecting them to the emotional blackmail of "sobbing" when they haven't actually ... done anything (all too literally in your DIL's case, but nevertheless)... is a bit inappropriate.

Your DIL might be a little aspie; she might be emotionally damaged from years of dealing with addicts; she might be weirdly co-dependent. Alternately, she might be a manipulative control-freak, or a sociopath, which is what I think a lot of people in the thread are trying to put their fingers on without coming out and saying so. The fact of the matter is, you don't know, and whatever the answer is, you can't affect it. You can affect your own behavior and actions.

I don't think you need to go the route of more apologies: your responding text sounds quite appropriate. But in the future, maybe dialing it back a little and letting people - your DIL, your DS, whoever - go at their own pace could be a way to avoid additional drama?

 

[JewelFreak]

iLander, I wish I could report happy outcome in my family's case, but no cigar, really. It eventually turned into a case of tolerance for the status quo since there was no choice. My SIL is very similar to what you describe. Mom tried her hardest but what she did was simply fodder for the "poor me's" when my brother heard about it. She told him a great many lies about things Mom said & did & I'm totally disgusted that he chose to believe them when he knew better. She complained for decades that she was a "single mother" because my bro was an airline pilot -- on one week, home an entire 10 days, then on another week or 2 but home between flights. So my bro was no more satisfactory to her than her MIL, I guess, and of course her own family abused, neglected & under-appreciated her, their 3 kids were a horrible burden on her, college tuitions, etc. etc. She shut up around me when I observed mildly that nobody held a gun to her head & forced her to have children. All this time she had horses, good cars, they live on 28 acres in Vermont w/Charles Bronson as their nearest neighbor before he died. She never had a real job, only a few part-time gigs, but was a suffering "working mother." None of us siblings visit because she's too much to take. Mom died 20 yrs ago but she NEVER dares malign her in front of me; she knows I don't buy her stuff for a minute & I don't care if my brother gets mad. Mom did care, of course. And they saw each other -- he would visit occasionally, often without SIL as time went on.

Mom handled it as you have arrived at: no criticism, do your best to be cordial & keep the lines of communication open. Your DS may be brighter than my bro & want to bail someday, or she may find a better prospect. You're doing a good job in an extremely painful situation, one engendering grief for you & family. I do know exactly how confused, alarmed, sad & frantic you feel. Be hopeful; things change when you least expect it. I still think talking to a counselor is something to consider -- give you more insight on her & probably support for your gut feeling and ways to cope, yourself. Much love, girl.

--- Laurie

PS -- Those of you in your 20s who haven't run into this personality type, please keep the snippy comments down to a dull roar. This whole problem is not a case of meanness, resentment, nor not wanting to let go. I only hope you're lucky enough never to encounter it so you can keep your illusions that "understanding" always turns things around. I don't write that to be nasty; I truly mean it.

 

[Cehrabehra]

ETA: Once I finished writing this I had to submit it 5 times lol

I really hate to admit it iLander, but there are some things about your DIL that remind me of MYSELF as a new bride. I can't be certain and it was 20 years ago.... but I definitely remember a weird tug of war on my husband. And I'd known my husband for 16 years before we got married. His mother babysat me and his sister and I went to kindergarten and were best friends. My friendship wtih her was what kept me in touch with their family and eventually brought us together.

I was always "like a daughter" to them but when we got married I became a daughter in law. I heard comments from my friend about how I "better not turn him into a vegetarian" and how "marriage is marriage but blood is blood" and I was "only his wife". Well maybe that sounds nuts - but that was THEIR way of dealing with me coming in and getting my hooks in.

The day before we got married I asked my husband if he ever had to choose between his mother and me - who would he choose? And he said me. If he had said her I wouldn't have married him. Two days before we got married his mom tried to talk him out of it - reminding him of what an awful child I was and how I would always be selfish and manipulative etc. He obviously didn't listen.

As soon as we married we lived in Florida and then NY with all of our family in California. We had distance. And that first year was WEIRD. Not everything either of us did was rational. I think the first year in a lot of ways was the worst year we've had. We hadn't lived together and much of our courtship was long distance so we had to get to know little things like, "will he do what I ask of him" or "how do we deal with the mundane part of sex when someone isn't in the mood" There were times I'm sure I (but don't accurately remember) asking him to do goofy things like eat a stupid pasta shell. It WAS controlling and stupid, but it was symbolic and meant that he cared. Ridiculous I know. But thankfully our families were FAR AWAY for the first 3 years and we were able to completely forge how our relationship would be and build a strong foundation so that when we *were* around our families we were a united front and they had to learn to accept our boundaries. I learned a lot in that first year about not just how to convince my husband to eat a pasta shell, but also how to compromise and know when something was important for me to give in entirely.

Now I would NEVER insist he eat something just because... it seems silly after all of these years, but like I said, that first year was not filled with rational things. I remember presenting him wtih TONS of hypotheticals. I remember him being stubborn about things just to feel strong. Goofy times... we were also young, 19 and 21 when we married (I'm older) and I still thank god that we lived so far from our families those first years... we had to work together to create our team. I had to learn things and grow up and so did he. Maybe if we were older we would have handled things differently and I'm sure other couples handle things differently too. But we have now been married 19.5 years and we are solid. Doesn't mean *everything* is always rational but we still love each other and we're still in love. Our children are growing up in a stable home with parents who love them and each other. We're a quirky group for sure, but I think most people are.

If someone had an eye over snippets of our relationship then they might have seen weird or disturbing things, especially things taken out of context.

I do worry about your relationship with you son and he has chosen to commit his life with this woman, you need to accept that and do what you can to make *their* relationship better and stronger. When she feels safe she may come around. She could be bat sh*t crazy but she might just be different, awkward, insecure, vulnerable. She may not be a lifelong controlling person but just someone wanting to prove to herself that her relationship is strong.

Once I had my own sons I had a WHOLE new appreciation of daughter in laws and looked at my boys and felt gripped with fear that some woman someday was going to wiggle her butt at him and take him away and push and pull to make him HERS and take him away from me. I comfort myself in the fact that I still have them to cuddle now, and someday I hope I will be able to understand my own daughters in law. My mother in law HATED her mother in law and swore she wouldn't be like that - but she had her own kind of crazy letting go of *her* son. I'm sure I will have my own special crazy letting go of mine. And when you think you're letting them go to some awful twit, it's extra hard. My mother in law knew me from 5 years old and remembers me biting children... I'm certain she wanted to save her son from MY kind of bat sh*t crazy. But as it turns out we are a very complimentary fit and I have hugely been mellowed and influenced by him and he is very patient with me lol It works - that's what matters right? That two people in love are happy?

Your road is not easy, I doubt hers is easy. She may be nuts, but more than likely the highest odds are that she is in a bizarre adjusting place in her life and intentionally or not you aren't making it easier for her. Sometimes two people just look at life so differently they each think the other is soooo wrong. I think it's too early to completely decide whether she's a valuable part of YOUR family but your son has already decided that she is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of HIS family and that is *exactly*exactly*exactly* as it should be for a married couple.

 

[Cehrabehra]

deleted my post - saw SO many grammatical errors lol It didn't even make sense.

In a nutshell - my mother in law and I now have a good relationship.

 

[redfaerythinker]

PS -- Those of you in your 20s who haven't run into this personality type, please keep the snippy comments down to a dull roar. This whole problem is not a case of meanness, resentment, nor not wanting to let go. I only hope you're lucky enough never to encounter it so you can keep your illusions that "understanding" always turns things around. I don't write that to be nasty; I truly mean it.

So, how old exactly do I have to be in order to "lose my illusions"? I'm pretty sure evil people can find you no matter what your age. I know one found me at the age of six. It took me almost twenty years to get rid of her, in which time she turned my father's death into her own personal tragedy, she tried to break up FI and I, etc. However, when I'm as old and wise as JewelFreak, i'll learn that I was a total moron in my twenties and she was probably a lovely person and I was just being naive.


iLander... I am truly sorry that your relationship with your DIL is not what you had wanted. I hope that in the future she will come around and be a friend to you. I wish you nothing but the best.

As for me, I'll go back to silently wearing my dunce cap until i'm 30.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Who says they are going to have a bad marriage? YOU don't like her but your SON loves HER. I never saw you mention what your relationship was like with your son before your DIL came along. I am thinking there were issues long before she came along...

 

[iLander]

(not trying to cut anybody off here, just random placement of this post)

THANK YOU

I would like to thank everyone for their help. I have a lot to think about, and some really good advice to help us move forward.

I was saddened by some posters stories of family trouble and difficulty, and I wish them the best. I learned a lot from those stories.

I was ticked by some posters, but it did make me look closer at myself, and that is always helpful.

I appreciated the understanding and sympathy of other posters, that made me feel better.

My family will move forward, somehow, the way all families do. I will try harder.

If we hit some more bumps (and I'm sure we will) I will post again, because YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST!

Now, I've been starting to feel guilty about hogging up the hangout, and I want to give it back to fun stuff and silliness.

So . . . Banana . . .

 

[texaskj]

Nanner, nanner, neener, neener...

A wise woman once told me: Expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed.

 

[Laila619]

The first time we met her, we were at another restaurant and she put a stuffed shell on his plate and said "(DS) are you going to eat that?" He said no thanks, I'm full. She keeps cajoling him and he says "No!'. She starts whispering "Why not? You're not going to disappoint me, are you? Eat it". He looked ticked off and shook his head. She kept whispering "Don't disappoint me. Are you going to disappoint me?" He finally ate a bite. She kept repeating the "disappoint me" thing until he finished it.

Another time, we all met at a restaurant and my DD and I were wearing high heels. She whispers to him "They're wearing heels to make me feel bad". What?

Okay, to this I have to say "so what?" So she's maybe a little weird. Oh well. It's very obvious to me that you don't like her at all--I'm sure she can easily pick up on that too. The bottom line is, your son loves her and picked her to be his wife. You really need to respect that and stop trying to find things to pick her apart with IMO.

It's also very telling that you jokingly said that eharmony comment. If your son is happy with her, you should be thrilled that they met. I guess I just don't understand.

ETA: I don't mean to be harsh, because I know it's a tough situation for everyone involved. I hope eventually everyone will be able to get along. Keep being patient and hanging in there! I know your son loves you too.

 

[galeteia]

This has been a fascinating thread. I appreciate that everyone has been so open about their own MIL-DIL dynamics, on both sides, because it has to be painful to share but what insights into this notoriously complicated relationship! My kudos to you, iLander, for embracing the discussion in the thread with grace instead of misinterpreting it as a personal attack.

Yesterday, I had spent a good 30 minutes typing out a reply to the possible Asperger's theory and on the thread in general, and FireFox ate it. I hate that. The gist of it is that she seems a bit too invested in social appearances and imagined slights, whereas the people I have known who were officially diagnosed (and I've known a fair few) just didn't have the capacity to read into social situations like the DIL in question, let alone overreact to the extent she has. My suspicion was some sort of background of abuse that led to a skewed sense of 'normal' interactions.

Interesting, since the Post That Was Doomed, people have brought up theories that would fit with that, such as the possibility that she considers your relationship inappropriate in some way. Do you know anything about her family or home life?

I ask because both mine and my mother's generation of my family are scarred by the emotional manipulations and abuse from my grandmother, so any hint of emotional blackmail and my hackles go up like I'm in a dark alley with a creepy man following me breathing hard. My grandmother even managed to break dishes that were supposedly 'unbreakable', because if there was a dish around, sooner or later it would end up hitting the wall accompanied by top-of-her-lungs screaming. Worst than that was the passive-aggressiveness and the guilt tripping.

Any sort of expectation of confidence or closeness (and my mother and I are very, very close) which has not been earned over time gives me the willies, because I instinctively interpret it as an attempt to be fake at best, or manipulative at worst. My SO's family were taken aback by how I went out of my way to avoid bear hugs from people I had never met, until SO sent word around that I wasn't comfortable with people in my personal space until I got to know them. Did it hurt their feelings? Yes. Here they are, opening their arms to me as a new member of their family, and I'm ready to bolt. How rude! How ungrateful! Does she not like us? Is she stuck up? What is her problem? They dearly love SO, and he dearly loves me, and for them that means they are primed to boisterously welcome me into their family by default.

I actually had to flee a few times and hide in an upstairs room as I "napped" because I felt like I was going to have a freak out right in front of them. When I got back home from this trip (a wedding, hence meeting EVERYONE for the first time) my doctor put me on medication to recover. I kid you not. I was on HYPER ALERT.

My point is (not to just talk about myself, heh) that if I had not already faced this type of cultural difference on a smaller scale with his immediate family, I would have been extremely offended, distressed, felt trapped, manhandled, disrespected, and certain that they were being false out of an attempt to get me off my guard so they could tear me down later. When I first met his family, I did feel his mother's attachment to him was inappropriate but that was because I was perceiving it through the lens of MY family history and what her actions would have meant.. His mother freaked me out by making all sorts of borderline 'return to the womb' sorts of comments, which at the time made me wonder if she had some sort of complex but now having known her for some 4+ years, I know to be just wistful nostalgia. She wouldn't REALLY happily give up her life to have her sons back in her arms as babies for one day, she's just being sentimental. 4 years ago, I would have thrown SO into the car and RUN LIKE H*LL before she stabbed me in my sleep or who knows what.

So there is a very real possibility she has some sort of background that has lead her to be both socially skewed and highly suspicious of your relationship with him due to misinterpreting things you have said or done.

Cehra, thank you for sharing your candid stories about irrational things you did when you were newly married to 'stake your claim' to your husband.

 

[PreciousHappy]

wow. simply wow. okay so I'm a newbie and my words mean jack right? but I'm gonna participate anyways because everyone was a newbie once and it's my turn right now. If I don't participate then I'll always stay a newbie. heh. here goes.

It's funny because this thread is the reason why I registered for PS. I've always enjoyed reading from afar but I just was itching to say something.

firstoff; I'm 33, married 10 years, and dated my husband for 5 1/2 before we were married so I've been with him for 15 1/2 years. We started dating when I was 18 1/2 and he was 16. He was my first boyfriend. I was his first girlfriend. And for both of us we were each other's first kiss, etc. Sorry for the TMI but I wanted to qualify that we were young, naive but in love and still in love after all these years. You would think that this would at least affect or color my MIL's view of me, right? um, no. She is still waiting for him to wake up and realize that I'm crapola for him and divorce me. Yes, despite that I've given birth to two beautiful babies who are her grandchildren. but I guess that doesn't matter when she is absolutely convinced that they are not his real biological children. In her eyes, I couldn't possibly have been a virgin when I met him and in fact I must have been and still am a raving slut. She is so convinced of this that she didn't bother showing up at the hospital both times my kids were born because as she stated, she had other plans including having dinner at home. It doesn't help that she is of a different racial ethnicity than I am as well. So because my children look like a cross between the two of us, she attributes to them not looking like him at all.

anywho. you're probably thinking that you didn't need to know the intricate details of a complete stranger's life and you're mostly right. Especially someone who doesn't seem to capitalize the first letter of every sentence. sorry, sometimes my shift key works and sometimes it doesn't but I'm way too attached to this laptop that my Dad gave me before he passed away to replace it.

I only shared because I wanted to point out that her "perception" of me was based on what she wanted to believe that I am. When I came into the picture she finally got what she wanted; someone to blame for her dysfunctional relationship with him. The thing is, when I met him, she and his Dad had just gotten a divorce because she cheated on his Dad. He was quite the angry, resentful, hurt teenage boy. All of a sudden it was all because of the cute but older Ethnic girlfriend that must be the reason why he did not enjoy living with her and her boyfriend.

I've always wondered why she hated me but I never let that matter to me because of my cultural background of respecting my elders. After marrying him and before I bent over backwards for her. Pushed him to call her at least every week even though I knew he didn't like talking to her. His personality is more like his Dad's than his Mom's and in some ways she disliked that about him. His brother has always been her favorite son.

To this day she still believes that I block him from calling her, that I stop him from visiting her (even though it takes me hours to convince him to go see her), etc. etc. Why isn't he more willing to see her? Not really his fault considering how cold she is towards our children. You can literally ask my kids who their Daddy's Mommy is and they have no clue. Who's your grandmother kids? they will shrug. Because she has never spoken to them, not even once during the handful of visits that I force upon my husband and my children--let alone actually even held or touched them. My eldest is 7 now, btw and he can't tell you who she is even if she were to stand in front of him. He does not know her. Why did I push the people I loved most to someone who seemingly didn't give two poops? Because I was under the impression that she thinks the way I do. I thought that family is important to her too. I thought that if I was a MIL that I would not want to have an estranged relationship with my precious son just because he married someone who may or may not like me.

Here's the thing I've finally realized, she has done the same thing to me. She judged me based on what she believes for herself. It turns out after my husband reconciled with his older brother (yes they haven't spoken in years because of MIL's dislike for me and his brother being her favorite sided with her), his brother told him all sorts of wonderful things about MIL. Let see, that she had cheated on her ex, my FIL before they got married, during, and subsequently why she divorced him. Despite her indiscretions, he still wanted her to stay. And it turns out that they were also swingers. Apologies to those who choose this lifestyle but definitely not for me but for my MIL and FIL apparently. or at least they were. So this is the reason why she always thought that I was a complete slut? Because she herself was the straying type. A liar thinks everyone is lying to him. She couldn't accept that an 18 1/2 year old "woman" older than her son by 2 1/2 years could have been an inexperienced virgin who would give her son the time of day. In my defense of my weird innocence, I was very studious and dutiful towards my mother and would never have wanted to jeopardize her respect for me (probably a cultural thing in my family) and I believed in waiting until I was in love first. I was also idealistic and stubborn.

So coming from her own experiences, what I "claimed" to be could not possibly exist. Thus I must have been lying and a slut to boot. So yes, she hated me on the spot. It didn't help that she thought that I am -nothing- like her and everything she envied, disliked, and outright hated. And the fact that my husband chose me to be the person he falls in love with feels like he rejected her because I am so different from her.

What I'm trying to say through all this long-windedness (is that even a word?) is that she was wrong. About her perception of me. And most importantly about how different we are.

I'm a brunette, she's a dyed blonde, I'm quite skinny (a typical trait of my ethnicity) whereas she's big-boned, I'm also short and she's tall. All silly insignificant details. We're both hard-working, strong women who prefer men who respect us for our brains and abilities. We're both natural born leaders. And most importantly we both love my husband. She looks at the silly details and thinks that my husband chose me because I'm different from her simply to spite her. She believes that he hates the kind of woman she is. She doesn't see that she raised him to pick a strong woman. She raised him to choose someone who would be a good mother to his kids.

SHE RAISED HIM. In caps despite my sticky keyboard (yes that took some work). That means that ultimately whomever he chooses and chose is directly and indirectly because of her. Directly through the morals she taught (she hid the swinging so well, he never had a clue although his older brother knew everything) and indirectly through who he perceived her to be and ultimately to want in a wife.

If I could actually communicate with her in a way that she would actually listen, I would tell her that I am grateful she raised such a great man. That I will never and have never lost sight of what she has given up to raise him and instill in him. I want her to know that I have tried so hard over all these years because I believe that she has so much to offer to my children. That they would LOVE to love her. That my husband would LOVE to love her. And I want to say to her that he chose me for many reasons. Some of them because of the woman who raised him and some of them because of the other things he fell in love with that I possess. But ultimately, in the end, he chose me BECAUSE HE LOVED/LOVES ME. I. Make. Him. Happy.

And what hurts him the most is that all he wants is for her to want him to be happy. She always said when he was growing up as all good mothers do and even bad mothers do who at least have good intentions; "I want you to be happy. Whatever you choose in life, all I want is for you to be happy." We all want that from our mothers and fathers. And when our parent(s) do not live up to that promise, sentiment, statement, we feel betrayed and abandoned.

If she truly wants to be happy, then she must stop waiting for him to divorce me. She must stop distancing herself from my children -her biological grandchildren (yes I would gladly have them do a DNA test..... well, as long as I'm not paying because that stuff is expensive!) for stupid, petty, irrational reasons and fear. IF SHE TRULY WANTS HIM TO BE HAPPY, SHE WOULD RESPECT HIS CHOICES, including the most important one in his life; his choice of who he wants to live a lifetime with.

The human heart is big enough to love more than one person. People who have multiple babies (or furbabies) know this. Men (and women) can love their wives and mothers at the same time. The waring wives and mothers both need to realize the truth in this and stop the tug-of-war for something they both already own; an important part of the man-in-question's heart.

I've never wanted him to not love her but I've finally realized that it is not up to me. He has valid reasons and some even from childhood. She has reasons (irrational ones mostly stemming from insecurity, jealousy, projection) and countless misunderstanding of me and my motives and actions. But no matter the reasons that he has to not clear the air with her or that she has to hate me so, what she is forgetting is that NO MATTER WHO I AM, I AM THE ONE HE CHOSE. I AM THE ONE WHO MAKES HIM HAPPY. I AM THE ONE WHO BORE HIS CHILDREN AND TAKES CARE OF HIM AND WHO HE CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT. He. Is. Also. All. Those. Things. For. Me.

For this alone should be the reason why she should maybe not necessarily love me but to accept me and my importance in his life. If only she realized that by getting to know me (instead of picking out every "weird" thing that she thinks I do and taking it out of context just to prove how horrible I must be for him), she will get to know her own son more. The son she professes to love unconditionally.

I want to love her. I see traits in him that I know is a direct result of her and I am so grateful for this man. But the years of being ignored, mocked, and blamed have beatened me down. I have finally learned after 15 1/2 years that you can't force someone to love you or even accept you. You can't force someone to see you for who you are when their own vision of their relationship with their son is already too damaged before you even get here. She treats me and my children poorly because at the end of the day, she may love him but she sure doesn't care enough about his happiness to bother showing or proving it.

And yes, if you're wondering, she treats my BIL and his wife completely differently. She also treats their children differently (meaning with love and care) as well.

I've learned that it's not who I am, it's not because of me that they don't have a good relationship. It has nothing to do with me. It has to do with them and their relationship towards each other. I'm just the hard-working, beleaguered scapegoat. Ayn Rand said, "Show me a man's wife and I can tell you everything there is to tell about him." or something like that. I'm too tired to google the exact words. Basically meaning, you pick your spouse because they are the person you think you are and/or hope to be.

Knowing this, I vow to always respect if not find out why and how to love the women my boys will one day choose. Because even if my opinion at that moment is that they made a mistake, it is their mistake to make and in the end.... it doesn't even matter how I feel about who they choose because those women will be so important to them that I will embrace if not love them for who those women are.



__Skip down to here to avoid the long aside from the complete stranger. The point is finally made below. hehe.__________________



ilander, I know you are going through a hard time. And I know that you must feel mal-aligned and distrusted and even misjudged. You believe yourself to be a good person and you can't possibly imagine why this twit of a girl can't see that and want you in her life.

my unwanted advice to you is to stop and correct your thinking a little bit. It is not her fault. She is not the one to blame for all the misunderstanding or conflict between you and her son.

Your son is the one to blame and you are the one to blame. Well, not exactly blame but you two are the ones who are ultimately responsible for each other's relationship with one-another. He chose her. HE did that. If you have a problem with her, you have a problem with him. If you accept him for who he is then you must accept her for who she is. And in order to do so, you must get to know her. Not go shopping, do manicures kind of get-to-know but actually find out and learn (either from him or her directly hopefully down the line) who she is and what he loves about her. BECAUSE HE LOVES HER and hopefully he will always love her. For his sake, her sake, your sake and your future grand-children's sake. Maybe her traits are odd to you right now because you don't know where she's coming from. Maybe you feel he made a mistake because she seems so different from you.

Don't do that. Don't pick out things she does and says just to twist and bend subjectively to prove your point that she's all wrong for him. She makes him so happy that he can't live without her and never would want to. This is a person you should learn about and get to know objectively beyond your own preconceived notions and prejudices.

She never held a gun to his head for him to fall in love with her and marry her. He did that all on his own. Respect that and recognize that he was responsible for his choice in bride and you were responsible for raising him to pick the kind of person he would pick.

Remember how he loved playing Super Mario Bros. growing up as a kid but you hated that video game (I'm assuming here) but I'm sure that you bought Super Mario Bros. themed merchandise, toys, apparel, etc for him anyways because you loved him not the video game. This is like that but on a much more insanely important scale.

Whatever problems you might have with her is stemming from your relationship with him. Resolve any hurt feelings between you two and one day you will genuinely get to know her and even love her or at the very least love what and who she is to him.

You owe your future grandchildren at least that much.

Take it from me and my poor kids who will never get to know their paternal grandmother. And take it from the fact that my MIL will never ever know what she is missing by missing out on my children's lives and watching them grow up. Every time they do something so crazy precious I think of my MIL and how sad it is that she isn't here to see it. I wish that she is at a place where she can drop her ill-feelings towards me enough to see me as a person who loves her son and raises her grandchildren.

You still have that opportunity. Don't let your future grandchildren grow up without their wonderful grandma just because you can't resolve things with your son enough to accept his wife.

What can you do specifically right now?

1. DO NOT meet up with her by herself and one-on-one. There is already too many hurt feelings and biased judgments between you two. Neither one of you like each other (mostly due to misunderstandings) thus neither one of you trust each other. And you both don't speak the same language emotionally anyways. Meet up with your son ALONE. Not with your husband and your daughter as he will see that as you guys ganging up on him. Your husband and your daughter only want you to be happy and think he's the cause or his wife is the cause of your unhappiness. They are already on your side and that is unfair to him. Meet up with him alone and talk to him. Tell him that you love him no matter what. Tell him that you may have misjudged her as a person and to rectify that, you need to learn more about her from him and why he loves her.

2. Resolve whatever it is between you and your son that is causing you to distrust his judgment in people and women. He sees you not liking her as you being critical of his choices. Figure out between you two why you don't accept that he is an adult who is responsible for his own happiness. He does not need you to hold his hand in who he should date let alone marry.

3. STOP waiting for them to get divorced. As someone said earlier in the thread, that situation will not benefit anyone. Even if you want to believe it, it won't. He loves her enough to marry her and pledge his life to her. Why would you want to destroy that or hope that that gets destroyed somehow? Would you rather him marry someone YOU love and think is perfect for him but who makes him miserable or would you rather him marry someone who makes him happy? From what I hear, Brad Pitt's mom absolutely loved Jennifer Anniston and can't understand what he sees in Angelina Jolie but despite her tatoos she is obviously a good, kind-hearted person who at the end of the day makes him happy. Jennifer Anniston seems like a perfectly nice gal and I don't know the particulars to their relationship but I know it failed. They just weren't happy. If he is happy with Angelina, so should the people who love him be happy for him.


I have faith that if you do these things, one day you will get to learn why your son loves her and you will get to appreciate the fact that your future grandkids are 50% her and love them more for it.

You can't lose your son. He will always be your son no matter what. So don't fear that and don't pin the blame on her for that. You can however end up with an estranged relationship with your son if you can't respect his choices AS AN ADULT.

You can do this. It is not about you and her. It's about you and him. You seem like a great person and she will know that too if you let yourself see her as a great person as well. She has to be great if she loves your son, right?


-------
okay off my soap box now. of course I've put all of Pricescope asleep or the mods have decided for the betterment of the community to delete this post! LOL.

Seriously, for all I know, you're long gone by now.

FWIW, I wish you the best because despite your misjudgment of her, I can tell that you love your son. Love him, support his choices and one day you will love her too.



P.S. The whole thing with the pasta shell? Who cares. No, really. Their little (bizarre to you) interactions are between them. Spying (yes it is spying when you know it has nothing to do with you) on them while they are acting out rituals of their relationship will do nothing for you. No one knows what goes on between a couple except for the two involved. For all you know he loved that seemingly "controlling" hoopla. For all you know, he's done that to her and she was playing with him. You don't know her well enough to interpret her interactions with him correctly. And her comment about you wearing high-heels? Either she could be joking around and saying look at you and your daughter all dressed up while I look like a dump or not, all she probably means is to tell him in her round-about-female way (and to you for that matter) that she didn't realize that she was suppose to "dress up" for the evening and feels foolish at making that mistake. She wants to make a good impression on you and him. Her making that comment about the shoes was her pointing out her own insecurities about the way she looks compared to you and your daughter. Especially since she is "the odd man out". What she is too young to realize is that men don't give two hoots about whether or not their girlfriend/fiance is wearing heels when their mother and sister are. Seriously. She's young, give her the benefit of the doubt. She will continue to do stuff you don't understand. So if she says or does things that seem "weird" to you, find out why she does them instead of assuming the worst in her. You owe your son at least that much.



Last note, I meant no offense in this entire post/reply. Everything I've said to you was from heart-felt and sincere sympathy and the desire to help in any way I can. I hoped I have shed -some- light onto the situation for you. And I truly truly wish you the best. It's gonna be hard but it's gonna be worth it. Fighting for your family is always gonna be worth it. SHE IS YOUR FAMILY NOW TOO. Good luck with all your endeavors.


-----apologies to all those who is not the OP at such a horrendously long-butt post----heh heh, am now returning you to your scheduled programing----------

 

[JewelFreak]

PS -- Those of you in your 20s who haven't run into this personality type, please keep the snippy comments down to a dull roar. This whole problem is not a case of meanness, resentment, nor not wanting to let go. I only hope you're lucky enough never to encounter it so you can keep your illusions that "understanding" always turns things around. I don't write that to be nasty; I truly mean it.

As for me, I'll go back to silently wearing my dunce cap until i'm 30.

Redfaery, I'm talking sociopaths. You don't run into them often but they're out there. You can't fix them by goodness & understanding; there is nothing inside to be fixed. It's called "borderline personality disorder" & iLander's DIL sounds like a good example thereof. It's not insanity, as in, out of touch w/reality but it is not changeable nor fixable. Narcissism is one sub-type, histrionic p.d. another, anti-social p.d. still another. If you're interested, read up on it; I find it fascinating.

Yeah, we were all dunces to a large degree in our 20s. We're supposed to be. If you knew everything that young, you'd be plumb bored to death the rest of your life, with nothing left to learn. The enthusiasm & optimism & innocence of those years is wonderful; I wish I had a lot of it back. Think about it again when you're in your 60s as I am. You'll know then what I mean.

--- Laurie