Need Feedback on OEC, Please

[evergreen]

I don’t consider this to be an overly obstructed stone at all! It looks great.

Aww thanks -- still, I do find it behaves better under the table with a bit of tilt and it is mostly "blue" under the table on ASET; I think it meets criteria for being obstructed (whatever those criteria are ). I think that may be the case for many old cuts as people were figuring out how to get two diamonds into one octahedron - just a different standard. It's got a lower crown and larger table than typical for old cuts. My tranny is like that, too, though doesn't darken as much under the table. Some "obstruction" is necessary for contrast, of course; the transitional happens to spread out that contrast better, when viewed up close. When I look at the cushion up close (18" or less, say), i can tell it's a little dark & benefits from a tiny tilt. It's just a personality thing, not a dealbreaker, obviously. I love it and wear it constantly and get to marvel at its performance IRL! It just performs, in a VERY general way, similarly to the close up video of the Ouros OECs.

I'm not as experienced as you in evaluating old cuts, though, @Dreamer_D -- anything I said that doesn't ring true? This is kinda how I interpret obstruction but I'm not sure it's a sophisticated take.

 

[OboeGal]

If this was me, I wouldn’t let him ship it because it would never be mind clean for me. Do you lose anything monetarily at this point if you decide not to go forward?

That's a very good question that I don't have an answer to! I need to find out - that matters. Thanks for bringing it up!

 

[evergreen]

I think his are going to be average-performing lab OECs. Smaller stones are better at white light return (and tiny pinprick virtual facets, less chunks than in a larger ctw) and a low crown stone like Ouros cuts is unlikely to produce much colored/refracted light. I think the pastels come from the environment - so, an obstructed stone that reflects what's directly above it will not capture environmental colors well.

I also think he's a businessman operating on a tiny margin and tries to squeeze out everything he can from any transaction. I didn't realize he'd stopped selling on Etsy; I think his practices don't match up with the customer focus we've come to expect on PS, at least. 95% of diamond end users might be fine with the stone you've been cut, but I'm nervous that most PSers are in the 5%.

 

[OboeGal]

Aww thanks -- still, I do find it behaves better under the table with a bit of tilt and it is mostly "blue" under the table on ASET; I think it meets criteria for being obstructed (whatever those criteria are ). I think that may be the case for many old cuts as people were figuring out how to get two diamonds into one octahedron - just a different standard. It's got a lower crown and larger table than typical for old cuts. My tranny is like that, too, though doesn't darken as much under the table. Some "obstruction" is necessary for contrast, of course; the transitional happens to spread out that contrast better, when viewed up close. When I look at the cushion up close (18" or less, say), i can tell it's a little dark & benefits from a tiny tilt. It's just a personality thing, not a dealbreaker, obviously. I love it and wear it constantly and get to marvel at its performance IRL! It just performs, in a VERY general way, similarly to the close up video of the Ouros OECs.

I'm not as experienced as you in evaluating old cuts, though, @Dreamer_D -- anything I said that doesn't ring true? This is kinda how I interpret obstruction but I'm not sure it's a sophisticated take.

What you just described in your tranny sounds very much like the tranny in my grandmother's ring that I described above - some obstruction that is a bit spread out, so it doesn't outweigh the beauty of the contrast and performance. But, as I mentioned above, it's a very small stone - I'm wondering if I'd mind a similar look in a bigger stone. Looking at the second video they sent, I found myself thinking, "Well, I could just enjoy looking at it with a bit of tilt on my hand and accept that!" which sounds a lot like how you're able to thoroughly enjoy the "quirk" of your cushion!

 

[OboeGal]

I think his are going to be average-performing lab OECs. Smaller stones are better at white light return (and tiny pinprick virtual facets, less chunks than in a larger ctw) and a low crown stone like Ouros cuts is unlikely to produce much colored/refracted light. I think the pastels come from the environment - so, an obstructed stone that reflects what's directly above it will not capture environmental colors well.

I also think he's a businessman operating on a tiny margin and tries to squeeze out everything he can from any transaction. I didn't realize he'd stopped selling on Etsy; I think his practices don't match up with the customer focus we've come to expect on PS, at least. 95% of diamond end users might be fine with the stone you've been cut, but I'm nervous that most PSers are in the 5%.

These are excellent points, and very helpful to my process. If I'm unlikely to get the colorful flashes I enjoy so very much in my little transitional, then I'm leaning toward it not being worth the risk, and that it would be better to take that money and try again elsewhere or save more to get a smaller stone from Jonathon.

ETA: Now that you've mentioned it, I realize that I'd forgotten to touch on the fact that I saw a distinct lack of colorful "fire" or "flashes" in both videos. I didn't know if it was just the particular lighting - I know in my very well-cut diamonds, I don't tend to see a lot of "color" when I'm outside on cloudy days, and see more of the black-and-white, on-off play there, but you may be providing a better explanation.

 

[0515vision]

Personally, I’d say no. You’ve got a lot of bad juju around this whole purchase. Keep the money and start fresh again later after everything has settled down.

We live a long time with our diamonds. We want to have happy memories with them. Sending hugs and more hugs!

 

[lovedogs]

These are excellent points, and very helpful to my process. If I'm unlikely to get the colorful flashes I enjoy so very much in my little transitional, then I'm leaning toward it not being worth the risk, and that it would be better to take that money and try again elsewhere or save more to get a smaller stone from Jonathon.

ETA: Now that you've mentioned it, I realize that I'd forgotten to touch on the fact that I saw a distinct lack of colorful "fire" or "flashes" in both videos. I didn't know if it was just the particular lighting - I know in my very well-cut diamonds, I don't tend to see a lot of "color" when I'm outside on cloudy days, and see more of the black-and-white, on-off play there, but you may be providing a better explanation.

I would get a smaller stone from Jonathan 100x over before letting them ship something I wasn't happy with that has no return policy

 

[OboeGal]

@0515vision and @lovedogs - agreed.

I just spent almost an hour going back and forth, in agonizing detail, between the 4 videos I have total of the stone and ring, the pictures and videos he has on the order page for his "flower pattern" OECs, and the pictures that @evergreen graciously provided of the stones she got from him. It's clear to me that the stones he has pictured and videoed on his order page, as well as evergreen's stones, all have relatively small tables and high crowns, and central "petal" facets that are alternately lighting up nicely. In contrast, the stone he's trying to sell me has a flatter crown, an appreciably larger table facet, and central "petals" that only occasionally have one lighting up at best - just as @LightBright pointed out. (In the very first video of the stone, set in pretty much the same lighting and setting as the video on his order page of an example stone, the center facets are completely, utterly dead.) Not cool, and I won't accept it, period.

I'm going to email him back and detail exactly what is wrong with the stone vs. what he is advertising. I would consider giving him one chance to come back with a stone that looks exactly like what he has on his website; if not, I either cancel the entire order for a full refund, or I purchase the empty setting without the stone for only the cost of the setting. We'll see how he responds!

ETA: I've emailed him back with just what I stated above. We'll see. I'm definitely NOT happy with this experience. Between this and evergreen's experience with him, there is clearly a pattern of advertising a nicely cut, more authentic-style OEC on his website, and then doing a "bait and switch" by initially trying to send something that is clearly NOT that - likely a slightly recut modern brilliant that is cheaper for him, like @Dreamer_D discussed - and hoping that the customer isn't informed enough to notice. It stinks.

Between this experience and the lousy one I had with Loose Grown Diamond, I do believe I'm really, really done with overseas vendors. (Which reminds me - I need to update my thread on the ring from LGD, as that has now been "resolved," although not terribly happily.)

 

[evergreen]

ETA: Now that you've mentioned it, I realize that I'd forgotten to touch on the fact that I saw a distinct lack of colorful "fire" or "flashes" in both videos. I didn't know if it was just the particular lighting - I know in my very well-cut diamonds, I don't tend to see a lot of "color" when I'm outside on cloudy days, and see more of the black-and-white, on-off play there, but you may be providing a better explanation.

Fire comes from longer light ray paths, as with a deep stone, bc the longer the light is "inside" the diamond the more it's refracted, bent, into its spectrum (rainbow). You'd get better fire with a deeper stone, generally. A well cut transitional pulls colors from the environment and - please consider I'm not an expert here, but I am an overthinking nerd hahaha - IMO what you're appreciating are the large virtual facets that reflect environmental color in blobs rather than splintery little bits. High symmetry transitionals do this exceptionally well - much better than MRBs because the virtual facets are large. But a transitional will not have as much refractive fire, perhaps even less than a MRB because the small splintery virtual facets imply a longer ray path.

I have a 3.75ct transitional-ish OEC recut from a 4ct MRB and the recut was graded as less tinted than the original even though the dimensions didn't change. I suspect that's bc of short ray paths with the recut compared to the MRB - transitionals take in light and throw it right back out in big organized symmetrical blobs with few long ray paths but more easily discernable reflection of environment.

-- overthinking nerd, see? There are definitely people on the forum with the ACTUAL knowledge to destroy this hand-wavey explanation with actual light science; hoping one of them will be along shortly.

 

[OboeGal]

Fire comes from longer light ray paths, as with a deep stone, bc the longer the light is "inside" the diamond the more it's refracted, bent, into its spectrum (rainbow). You'd get better fire with a deeper stone, generally. A well cut transitional pulls colors from the environment and - please consider I'm not an expert here, but I am an overthinking nerd hahaha - IMO what you're appreciating are the large virtual facets that reflect environmental color in blobs rather than splintery little bits. High symmetry transitionals do this exceptionally well - much better than MRBs because the virtual facets are large. But a transitional will not have as much refractive fire, perhaps even less than a MRB because the small splintery virtual facets imply a longer ray path.

I have a 3.75ct transitional-ish OEC recut from a 4ct MRB and the recut was graded as less tinted than the original even though the dimensions didn't change. I suspect that's bc of short ray paths with the recut compared to the MRB - transitionals take in light and throw it right back out in big organized symmetrical blobs with few long ray paths but more easily discernable reflection of environment.

-- overthinking nerd, see? There are definitely people on the forum with the ACTUAL knowledge to destroy this hand-wavey explanation with actual light science; hoping one of them will be along shortly.

I can't judge how hand-wavey vs. scientific your explanation is, but it sure makes sense to me!

 

[Karl_K]

Fire is extremely lighting dependent.
The lighting is just not conductive to producing fire.
What lighting will produce fire depends on the design of the stone.
An oec will show fire in more lighting conditions than a mrb.
Large virtual facets(large features) produce fire more often in low to medium lighting.
Small features(caused by long light paths) will show more fire events but only in brighter lighting.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Aww thanks -- still, I do find it behaves better under the table with a bit of tilt and it is mostly "blue" under the table on ASET; I think it meets criteria for being obstructed (whatever those criteria are ). I think that may be the case for many old cuts as people were figuring out how to get two diamonds into one octahedron - just a different standard. It's got a lower crown and larger table than typical for old cuts. My tranny is like that, too, though doesn't darken as much under the table. Some "obstruction" is necessary for contrast, of course; the transitional happens to spread out that contrast better, when viewed up close. When I look at the cushion up close (18" or less, say), i can tell it's a little dark & benefits from a tiny tilt. It's just a personality thing, not a dealbreaker, obviously. I love it and wear it constantly and get to marvel at its performance IRL! It just performs, in a VERY general way, similarly to the close up video of the Ouros OECs.

I'm not as experienced as you in evaluating old cuts, though, @Dreamer_D -- anything I said that doesn't ring true? This is kinda how I interpret obstruction but I'm not sure it's a sophisticated take.

That all makes sense and you know more about your stone than I do seeing it just in these pictures! These diamonds weren’t necessarily “not well cut” though when they don’t have perfect proportions per modern standards. They were cut for candle light. Regardless your diamond is gorgeous and I would not even critique it one bit!

 

[OboeGal]

Well, I have an answer from them.

They're refusing to cancel the order or refund any of my money whatsoever, even though they've not shipped it to me. They're saying, in essence, "we showed you (a couple crappy videos of) the diamond, you approved it, so now that it's in the ring, per store policy, you're stuck with it, like it or not."

How do I proceed at this point? Arrrggghhh....I'm kind of panicking now! I just looked at their policy, and it now states that any loose diamond order is not exchangable or refundable at any point after the order has been placed. I don't think that's what it said when I ordered it - I think that it said it was not refundable once it had shipped - but I can't prove that because they completely revamped their website in the last couple weeks. I mean, I remember reading their policy ahead of time, and I'm pretty darn sure I would not have ordered it if there had been no recourse whatsoever once the order was placed, no matter what the stone looked like in approval videos!

@evergreen, how did that work for you? You said that you were able to reject the initial stones on the basis of the cut and get him to obtain better ones. How were you able to do that?

I'm feeling ill now........

 

[Karl_K]

Contact your cc company asap.
Tell them video shows its not what you were expecting based on advertised stones and has not shipped.
They are refusing to cancel the order.
Keep it simple and as clear as possible.

 

[OboeGal]

Contact your cc company asap.
Tell them video shows its not what you were expecting based on advertised stones and has not shipped.
They are reusing to cancel the order.
Keep it simple and as clear as possible.

Thank you so much! I will do that right away.

 

[OboeGal]

I've called the credit card company, and they have advised me that I need to have the ring/stone in hand before I can successfully dispute the charge, due to his now-stated policy of "no refunds or exchanges for stones after ordering." Once I have it in hand, I can then file the dispute on the basis that the stone is, indeed, not cut or performing like the example stones on the order page of the website, and therefore I did not receive the product as advertised. They thought it might be worth a try to let him know that I will do that, so that he's "incentivized" to try and obtain a stone that DOES look and perform like on the website and is acceptable to me, or else he will be out the cost of the stone anyway, so I emailed and informed him of that.

This all just feels awful. I hate this.

 

[lovedogs]

I've called the credit card company, and they have advised me that I need to have the ring/stone in hand before I can successfully dispute the charge, due to his now-stated policy of "no refunds or exchanges for stones after ordering." Once I have it in hand, I can then file the dispute on the basis that the stone is, indeed, not cut or performing like the example stones on the order page of the website, and therefore I did not receive the product as advertised. They thought it might be worth a try to let him know that I will do that, so that he's "incentivized" to try and obtain a stone that DOES look and perform like on the website and is acceptable to me, or else he will be out the cost of the stone anyway, so I emailed and informed him of that.

This all just feels awful. I hate this.

Yeah, this sounds crappy. I've heard not great things about him, so I can't say I'm surprised

 

[Karl_K]

@OboeGal I thought that is what they would say but its vital to get it on record and get their advise asap.
Sorry this has turned into such a pain.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

So I’m assuming not exchangeable means that they will not unset the diamond at this point? My advice was going to be to make them send you videos of other diamonds and pick the best one. If they are going to play hardball then I would play it right back.

I’m sorry you are dealing with this, it really stinks to have something that should be a joyful, fun experience go so sideways:

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

I bought a very cheap moissy ring from him last year, it was horrible and unwearable. Never mind a refund, he wouldn't even credit me what I paid for the ring (silver, cost him about 50 cents). Reddit does group buys from him, he thinks we're all stupid. I think he's from the weasel family. I'm sorry you'e going through this, I hope your crexdit card company backs you up.

 

[OboeGal]

Well, I received a somewhat back-pedaly email full of "Oh, no, I'm not trying to force anything! We're here to help you! We want you to be satisfied!" blah blah blah....while also gaslighting me, telling me that the stone is beautiful and it's just lighting and I'm not seeing what I'm seeing.

There were four more still photos attached, taken on a table indoor from four different angles. The side view reinforced that the crown is shallow - as shallow as my MRBs - and the front view reinforced that the table is relatively large and the light play in the central facets is not good, whereas the example OECs on his order page all have puffier crowns, smaller tables, and nice light play in the central facets. So - after being just unwilling to deal with it at all for a day - I emailed him back just now stating exactly what I wrote above about the proportions and performance vs. what's he's got on his website, that the stone is not as advertised, and that he has three options: 1) refund me for the stone and send the empty setting, as it looks fine and did have some customizations that I feel obligated to pay for; 2) replace the stone with one that looks and performs like those on his website, with video/photo evidence of such to my approval before shipping; or 3) send the ring as is with the awareness that when I have it in hand and can confirm that it is, indeed, not as advertised, I will file a charge-back for the price of the stone. And then told him to please choose one.

I just really want this to be over, but I'm not giving up, since he's clearly hoping to just wear me down. It's hard, though; I'm not a confrontational person or someone who's used to, or comfortable with, having to be so repeatedly assertive with someone just to get treated reasonably or get what I paid for. It's taking a toll. I honestly think at this point that he could find the prettiest little 1.0ct OEC on the planet, and I wouldn't be able to stomach wearing the ring. It's all tainted.

 

[Mreader]

I’ve never liked this guy. I hope you get a resolution.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

Well, I received a somewhat back-pedaly email full of "Oh, no, I'm not trying to force anything! We're here to help you! We want you to be satisfied!" blah blah blah....while also gaslighting me, telling me that the stone is beautiful and it's just lighting and I'm not seeing what I'm seeing.

There were four more still photos attached, taken on a table indoor from four different angles. The side view reinforced that the crown is shallow - as shallow as my MRBs - and the front view reinforced that the table is relatively large and the light play in the central facets is not good, whereas the example OECs on his order page all have puffier crowns, smaller tables, and nice light play in the central facets. So - after being just unwilling to deal with it at all for a day - I emailed him back just now stating exactly what I wrote above about the proportions and performance vs. what's he's got on his website, that the stone is not as advertised, and that he has three options: 1) refund me for the stone and send the empty setting, as it looks fine and did have some customizations that I feel obligated to pay for; 2) replace the stone with one that looks and performs like those on his website, with video/photo evidence of such to my approval before shipping; or 3) send the ring as is with the awareness that when I have it in hand and can confirm that it is, indeed, not as advertised, I will file a charge-back for the price of the stone. And then told him to please choose one.

I just really want this to be over, but I'm not giving up, since he's clearly hoping to just wear me down. It's hard, though; I'm not a confrontational person or someone who's used to, or comfortable with, having to be so repeatedly assertive with someone just to get treated reasonably or get what I paid for. It's taking a toll. I honestly think at this point that he could find the prettiest little 1.0ct OEC on the planet, and I wouldn't be able to stomach wearing the ring. It's all tainted.

I think I understand how you feel. I hate confrontation and I caved for $110. But you're doing a great job defending yourself! I'm trying to predict how he'll react and I can't, but you have my admiration. I really hope he refunds you for the stone and you have a setting to start over with.

 

[OboeGal]

I’ve never liked this guy. I hope you get a resolution.

Thank you!

 

[OboeGal]

I think I understand how you feel. I hate confrontation and I caved for $110. But you're doing a great job defending yourself! I'm trying to predict how he'll react and I can't, but you have my admiration. I really hope he refunds you for the stone and you have a setting to start over with.

Thank you! Oh, I absolutely would cave for $110 too, no doubt about that. I'm only fighting this because this whole ring is running about $600, and I'm going to need that if Alex Park comes up with something or if I want to start a savings pot for a smaller custom-cut lab stone from Jonathon - which is especially alluring, considering his latest Instagram post of a big fat flash bomb custom OMC!

 

[YadaYadaYada]

I’ve never liked this guy. I hope you get a resolution.

I corresponded with him one time and he wanted me to send a deposit (I believe non-refundable) to send video of a diamond. I was like nope, not happening. Seems to be all about the money with no focus on customer service which is obviously the absolute wrong way to conduct a business.

@OboeGal, you are doing a great job navigating this situation.

 

[CSpan]

My gut wrenches reading this. I You have handled this admirably. I let things go and then end up ruminating for ages, This is a great reminder to be firm.

It may be too soon, but you could look at the wayback machine for older versions of his site and see if the policy has changed.

 

[OboeGal]

Thank you so much for the support, @YadaYadaYada and @CSpan - it means a lot. I feel like I'm fighting a symbolic battle for all of Pricescope against cr*ppy vendors now!

@CSpan, that's a good idea about the wayback machine. Thank you for that!

In response to the email I sent yesterday, he is continuing to completely ignore everything I've repeatedly said about the cut proportions, and therefore the light play, particularly in the central facets, not being correct and not like what he has pictured on his website. He is insisting the stone IS just like on the website, and that the only reason I see a difference is because I chose the option to buy a stone that is a G instead of a D/E, and the one pictured on the website is a D/E. But, if I don't believe that, he'll send it for an IGI cert (which I thought I was already going to be getting, so add that to the list of issues!) which will prove to me the color and clarity and everything! Oooo - fancy!

If I wasn't so deeply pissed off at this point, it would be seriously comical.

He also attached yet another video, this one in sunlight, where facing the stone directly into the camera was avoided, but which not only again clearly showed the flat crown and broader table, but also showed that the prongs aren't even lined up quite right.

I responded that what I'm seeing has nothing to do with the color or clarity of the stone or what lighting it's in, and - yet again just so it is well-documented - what exactly the differences are between this stone and what he shows on the website, in even more detail and specific terms. I also told him that I know that he knows what I'm talking about and that he CAN source proper stones, as I had communicated with another customer (@evergreen) who he had tried to sell improperly-cut stones to, but at her insistence, had then sent stones that are cut correctly. I also pointed out the issue with the prongs.

I then told him that I was no longer open to him sourcing me another stone, as I had given him enough opportunity to agree to do so. (Frankly, at this point, I assume he would just try to sell me another one similar to this and we'd just keep going in circles.) His only options were to refund me for the stone and send me the setting (although I pointedly mentioned that I would have to pay out of pocket to have a local jeweler properly align the prongs), refund me for both stone AND setting (due to the prong issue), or send me the ring as-is, and when I received it and had proof in hand of the issues, I would file a charge-back for the stone, and possibly the setting as well, depending on how much it would cost me to have the prongs adjusted. I finished by stating that failure to act on one of those options, and provide proof of shipping and/or refund to me, by one week from today would result in me filing a charge-back for stone AND setting for reasons of non-receipt of purchased goods.

I'm really, really DONE effin' with this guy.

 

[OboeGal]

The interesting thing to me about all this is, if HE'S so convinced that the stone is beautiful and just like those on the website, and that I'll be pleased with it, why not just send it, then? I've repeatedly given him that option, just always with the warning that I will file a charge-back for the stone IF, once I have it in hand, I see the same issues in it that I see in all the pictures and videos. I've always said IF, so I'm leaving the possibility open that I am, in fact, wrong about it (which personally I think is the slimmest of possibilities, but still). So....if he's so sure about this stone, why not just take that chance, then?

The fact that he's not just sending it tells me that he doesn't REALLY believe what he's telling me about the stone. He knows that it's not like what's on his website, and once I have the proof, I will get the money back, AND he won't have the stone to try to pawn off on some other poor customer who orders a 1.0ct G OEC from him. I wonder if he thinks that if he just stalls like this long enough, I will just give up and go away and eat the $600 for all of it, while he still has a stone and setting to sell to someone else. How he would think I wouldn't take action for not receiving any goods, I don't know. Crazy.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Ugh this guy is the worst.