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19cquest

Rough_Rock
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Feb 5, 2010
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I''ve been looking around in this forum and there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people so I need an opinion!

Right now, I have a stone on hold at Shane Co. in Seattle... here are the specs:

AGS # 1040363270069
July 29th. 2009
Shape: Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.20 -7.23 x 4.54 mm
Weight: 1.501 cts
Proportions
Total Depth: 62.9%
Table: 57.7%
Girdle: Thin to very thick, Faceted
Culet: Pointed
Finish
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent

Color Grade: AGS 2.0 (H)


Clarity Grade: AGS 3 (VS1)


Florescence: Negligible

I have inspected the diamond in person and am in love with it... which is why I put 10% down to put it on hold. The only thing I''m not sure of is if it''s a good price. The price is $12800 out the door. Comparing with other local jewelry stores such as Ben Bridge, Fox''s, and EE Robbins, this seems like a good price.

BUT, then I look online for similar stores and I find it a lot cheaper... I guess I''m just afraid to buy online without seeing the stone in person. For example, here''s a stone with similar grading:
http://www.lumeradiamonds.com/diamonds/detail/17895067%0D

for almost $2500 cheaper... It''s my understanding, though, that AGS stones are regarded as a bit more strict than GIA and may inflate the price.

I also have a stone that I looked at in a store with GIA cert, 1.41ct vs2H with excellent across the board for 10.8k... 2k difference from the 1.5ct... but it''s a VS2 and .09 smaller with a GIA cert! Can someone please guide me slightly? I know I''m looking for an ideal cut 1.5ish ct, vs2 and up, h and up, excellent across the boards stone...
 
Buy where you''re comfortable. Buying locally has advantages, and if you love the stone that''s the most important thing.



That said, many psers happily buy 3ct+ stones online without problems, use a respected vendor and do your homework. I would not buy the stone you have chosen, I would not be happy with the cut.
 
Ditto.

Not liking the cut, seems like the cutter is just aiming for the 1.5c mark where there is a significant jump in $/carat.
 
Hi cquest and welcome!


Here is the report link for this diamond which will make it easier for others to help you and for new posters to learn by following the advice given as to why this diamond isn't the best cut stone.

http://www.agslab.com/reportTypes/pdqr.php?StoneID=1040363270069&Weight=1.501&D=1

The diamond is too deep for my taste and along with the very thick girdle variation, it is looking small for the weight, it does look as if this is one of those diamonds which is cut for weight by leaving some weight in the depth and girdle to hit 1.5cts in order to get the resultant price jump. A well cut 1.5ct should face up around 7.4 - 7.5mm. Have you inspected this diamond away from the store lights to see how it looks? The crown and pavilion angles are not a great fit either bordering on what we call steep deep range, it is likely this stone will show light leakage. Also what can make these stones look small for the weight is that in some cases they can lack edge to edge light return which lights up the whole of the stone. Rather like comparing a lesser cut stone to a dim light bulb compared to a well cut diamond to a bright bulb.

If you aren't sure cquest, see if you can view some well cut diamonds in person before you pull the trigger on this one, try Jareds if there is one in your area and look at their AGS0 Peerless or Hearts on Fire brand if there is a dealer near you.

Also if you want this stone, it is important to view it away from the store lights to see if it loses much sparkle and beauty away from the bright store lights.
 
Very Interesting to hear viewpoints on the cut... I have only been going off of general ideal cut proportions of having the table 53-57% and total depth of 59-62% or something like that... I thought as long as you were close than it was good but now I know that these really are MAXimums that you''re looking for. Well, I''m definitely glad I didn''t buy it then! And no, I didn''t look at it in natural lighting... just in the store and in the microscope. Speaking of which, I did notice the thick girdle on the stone and it makes sense to me why this is a deeper stone and perhaps cut to make weight.

Thank You! I''ll look for others and ask for your opinions again
30.gif


Has anyone heard good or bad things about buying diamonds from USAA?
 
Date: 2/6/2010 11:03:42 AM
Author: 19cquest
Very Interesting to hear viewpoints on the cut... I have only been going off of general ideal cut proportions of having the table 53-57% and total depth of 59-62% or something like that... I thought as long as you were close than it was good but now I know that these really are MAXimums that you're looking for. Well, I'm definitely glad I didn't buy it then! And no, I didn't look at it in natural lighting... just in the store and in the microscope. Speaking of which, I did notice the thick girdle on the stone and it makes sense to me why this is a deeper stone and perhaps cut to make weight.

Thank You! I'll look for others and ask for your opinions again
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Has anyone heard good or bad things about buying diamonds from USAA?
Click to expand...


You are most welcome! Normally I prefer a maximum depth for a traditional cut diamond to be 62.4% as any deeper and you can start to lose spread, some others won't go past 62% but for me there are many excellently cut stones which are a bit deeper than 62% so allowing a little leeway can avoid ruling out these diamonds. The girdle along with the depth will also help hide weight in this case, it is one of those stones where if you know what to look for, that one can tell this diamond is probably cut with hitting the 1.5ct mark in mind.

I have heard USAA have started selling diamonds but I am not familiar with what they have on offer or their policies etc.

You can use these proportions as guidelines below to help you find a well cut round diamond, if you would like to narrow the field further I can also post some proportions one of the experts uses that specializes in top cut rounds.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!



As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

From expert John Pollard.

With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.



GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).
 
The only thing with USAA is that it doesn't show the entire certificate so it doesn't give all of the dimensions... so I got them off of GIA!

Here are the ones I'm looking at with usaa:

All GIA EXCELLENT Cut

#1
ROUND 1.52 H VS1 Diamond
$12,364.00

Item #GIA5103720424


Report Type: GIA
Report No.: 5103720424
Measurements: 7.43x7.34x4.58
Culet: NONE

Proportions:
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 35.0°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 41.2°
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Additional Inscription: H&A


#2
ROUND 1.64 H VS2 Diamond
$12,751.00

Item #GIA1116544784


Report Type: GIA
Report No.: 1116544784
Measurements: 7.59x7.52x4.7
Culet: NONE

Proportions:
Depth: 62.2%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 34.5°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 41.4°
Pavilion Depth: 44.0%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None


#3
ROUND 1.58 H VS2 Diamond
$12,285.00

Item #GIA2105025826


Report Type: GIA
Report No.: 2105025826
Measurements: 7.46x7.44x4.6
Culet: NONE

Proportions:
Depth: 61.7%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 35.0°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8°
Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None


#4
ROUND 1.57 H VS1 Diamond
$11,633.00

Item #GIA5111452055


Report Type: GIA
Report No.: 5111452055
Measurements: 7.54x7.5x4.55
Culet: NONE

Proportions:
Depth: 60.5%
Table: 60%
Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown Height: 13.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.2°
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: Medium Blue
 
Here are the details for your selections;

1) http://www2.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=5103720424&weight=1.52

Has what we call steep deep crown and pavilion angles and could show light leakage, an Idealscope image would be needed in order to properly evaluate this stone. Also as it is said to be hearts and arrows, images of both h&a would be needed in order to substantiate this but I don't know if USAA offer such images, definitely ask though.


2) http://www2.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=1116544784&weight=1.64

This diamond has a steep pavilion angle which can lead to issues such as light leakage, colour entrapment in near colourless diamonds and also these stones can look worse when dirty. An Idealscope image would again be essential but without I would be inclined to pick a diamond with ' safer' numbers.

3) http://www2.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=2105025826&weight=1.58

This diamond gets my vote, although again an Idealscope image is needed in order to evaluate this diamond, it has the most promising proportions out of all of them - but no guarantees without images and an expert vendor assessing the stone for suitability.

4) http://www2.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=5111452055&weight=1.57

This is a good example of the 60 60 type diamond ( click on 60 60 for an explanation) especially if one likes the slightly larger tabled look these stones can offer. Again an IS image would be useful to evaluate this diamond if available.
 
I had forgotten that I came across a gia verification before and added them to my post with info... it appears that #3, the 1.58 vs2 has the best proportions?

What do you mean about the both images of h&a to be evaluated?

Thanks Lorelei!
 
Date: 2/6/2010 12:20:51 PM
Author: 19cquest
I had forgotten that I came across a gia verification before and added them to my post with info... it appears that #3, the 1.58 vs2 has the best proportions?

What do you mean about the both images of h&a to be evaluated?

Thanks Lorelei!
Click to expand...
It looks to me out of all of them that #3 has the most potential to be a good looking diamond from the info provided. Images such as Idealscope if you could get one would tell us more.

With the first diamond it says on the report that it is inscribed " hearts and arrows" which means someone believed this is a h&a diamond and wanted it inscribed as such. Although it has ' iffy' proportions to me, if you wanted to investigate this one and having a hearts and arrows diamond matters to you then images of both hearts and arrows would be needed. However I am sceptical that this stone would in fact meet the standards we expect to be considered a ' true' h&a stone.

If you would like further info on h&a then check out this article from the Pricescope tutorial,

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/65/1/Hearts-and-Arrows-Diamonds-and-The-Basics-of-Diamond-Cutting.aspx

And you are most welcome!
35.gif
 
Date: 2/6/2010 12:47:05 PM
Author: ImpatientOne
If you are willing to buy, site unseen, from USAA, why not purchase from one of the trusted vendors here that will provide much more information? Good Old Gold will even make a video for you if you ask. How about these stones?

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6404/ 1.42 H VS1 $11,286 with PS disc

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5808/ 1.54 G SI1 $11,900 with PS discount

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/Whiteflash-ACA-cut-diamond-2219632.htm 1.52 H VS1 $12,757 with PS discount
Click to expand...
Great picks Imp!!! The ACA does look like its sold but worth asking just in case if interested, or WF might be able to suggest another stone similar. The search tool isn't cooperating for me at the moment but hopefully it will soon.
 
Aw man that 1.52 would be perfect! But... under the Pricescope wire price it says sold.

Ya I suppose I wouldn''t mind going with another vendor as long as they had a good return policy and reputation...

I do know I want a 1.5 or larger and at least VS2... I just haven''t been happy with any SI''s I''ve seen in person so I''d rather just make that a requirement for myself.

Thanks for the input though; I''ll widen my search.
 
Date: 2/6/2010 1:07:19 PM
Author: 19cquest
Aw man that 1.52 would be perfect! But... under the Pricescope wire price it says sold.

Ya I suppose I wouldn''t mind going with another vendor as long as they had a good return policy and reputation...

I do know I want a 1.5 or larger and at least VS2... I just haven''t been happy with any SI''s I''ve seen in person so I''d rather just make that a requirement for myself.

Thanks for the input though; I''ll widen my search.
Click to expand...
Would you like some more suggestions? If you give us your budget for the stone we can hunt for you if you would like us to?
 
Actually, yes that would be great!

Here is a 1.61 VS1H from USAA for $13488

GIA Report Number: 6117490205
Report Type: GIA Diamond Grading Report
Date of Issue: December 23, 2009
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.49 - 7.60 x 4.65 mm

Carat Weight: 1.61 carat
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: VS1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown Height: 14.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.0°
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.0%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None


This would probably be the MAX I''d want to pay for any stone so I''d say this is my budget!

Thank You!
 
Date: 2/6/2010 1:30:56 PM
Author: 19cquest


Actually, yes that would be great!

Here is a 1.61 VS1H from USAA for $13488

GIA Report Number: 6117490205
Report Type: GIA Diamond Grading Report
Date of Issue: December 23, 2009


Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.49 - 7.60 x 4.65 mm

Carat Weight: 1.61 carat
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: VS1
Cut Grade: Excellent


Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown Height: 14.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.0°
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.0%)
Culet: None


Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None


This would probably be the MAX I'd want to pay for any stone so I'd say this is my budget!

Thank You!
Click to expand...
I will see if the search tool is working for me and if so, see what I can find.

The diamond you posted above has definite potential also, do USAA have a good return policy should you buy from them?

ETA - the search tool is still playing up for me so I will search by other methods.

Here is one which might suit you,

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1255544.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VVS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1200101.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1268103.asp
 
The others have made very good suggestions, I just wanted to add my vote for working with a trusted PS vendor. PS has a lot of power for consumers as the vendors we endorse are held accountable for their service and products.
 
Wow, nice stones! I don''t like the 1.61 just because of the inclusions... but the other two...! Should I steer away from "Very good" for polish? I''ve only been looking at excellents for those but I''m not as experienced so what''s your take on this? VVS2 at that price is definitely nice though! Is the H&A worth the extra dough? I need to request the cert for the 1.61 to see where the inclusions are on it also and perhaps a real picture of it.
 
Date: 2/6/2010 2:14:36 PM
Author: 19cquest
Wow, nice stones! I don't like the 1.61 just because of the inclusions... but the other two...! Should I steer away from 'Very good' for polish? I've only been looking at excellents for those but I'm not as experienced so what's your take on this? VVS2 at that price is definitely nice though! Is the H&A worth the extra dough? I need to request the cert for the 1.61 to see where the inclusions are on it also and perhaps a real picture of it.
Click to expand...
Check out the one above I just posted from Whiteflash.... http://www.whiteflash.com/round/round-cut-diamond-2219633.htm#


No need to steer clear of VG polish as the naked untrained eye cannot normally notice any difference between VG or higher. As to whether h&a is worth extra it depends on the buyer and their preferences. Also with VS clarities the vast majority are completely eyeclean and you can't judge the inclusions or visibility from the grading report, an expert who can see the stone in person is the best one to advise, James Allen have gemologists on staff that can assist you.
 
AH sorry my connection is slow because I''m on a ship! How do you put them on hold? I saw that you can put it on hold with a credit card number on file for a day but where is the option?
 
Date: 2/6/2010 2:25:38 PM
Author: 19cquest
AH sorry my connection is slow because I'm on a ship! How do you put them on hold? I saw that you can put it on hold with a credit card number on file for a day but where is the option?
Click to expand...
Just call Whiteflash if you are able or email them, give them the link to the diamond or the item number and they should be able to reserve it for you no problem, I think in order to do this, you contact them by phone and give them your CC number to put on file so they can reserve the diamond.
 
Alright, e-mail sent! But, unfortunately they''re closed on the weekend... so we''ll see when they respond.
33.gif


Now, comparing that stone with the 1.59 vvs2h, 1.54 vs2g h&a, and usaa''s 1.61 vs1h... what aspects of the 1.587 made you like it over the others?
 
Date: 2/6/2010 2:51:46 PM
Author: 19cquest
Alright, e-mail sent! But, unfortunately they're closed on the weekend... so we'll see when they respond.
33.gif


Now, comparing that stone with the 1.59 vvs2h, 1.54 vs2g h&a, and usaa's 1.61 vs1h... what aspects of the 1.587 made you like it over the others?
Click to expand...
Someone could well get back to you today or pretty quickly.

I like the WF diamond best as the price is good and is considerably cheaper than the first James Allen diamond, also I prefer the proportions to the H VVS. The WF stone has excellent proportions and Idealscope image. They are all good diamonds but for me in this case I preferred the WF stone.
 
Wow I must have been looking at a different stone when I spoke about the inclusions in the 1.61 vs2h that you sent me... the inclusions don''t seem bad at all! And that price!? Seems good.

Also, I''ve e-mailed usaa asking about pictures or ideal scope images so hopefully they''ll get back to me soon!

So, I''m waiting on two vendors to respond, progress!

I''ll be shoreside tomorrow so everything will be a bit easier with phone access...

Thanks!
 
Is it just the picture or does the 1.61 look duller than the others...?
 
Its lighting. Don''t worry.

And don''t worry about inclusion plots of a VS2. Pictures matter more because you cannot tell eye cleanliness from a plot at all. But with a VS2 it is all moot, you won''t see them with your own eyes, that grade means it is hard to find them at 10x.
 
Alright so I''m highly contemplating buying the stone online... but was wondering how insurance would work with the center stone... here''s what my Jeweler at Ben Bridge told me:

I agree, you would need to have it insured for theft and loss (this requires a ''rider'' or separate insurance policy, because a regular home owners or renters policy only covers theft). I talked to my agent briefly to get her take on the question. She said that you need to keep in mind, that in all but the most expensive policies, unlike warranties, there are deductibles for losses, and some things that aren''t covered or are only partially covered. For example, chipped stones on my policy are required to be recut (even if it results in carat weight loss) and would only be replaced by my insurance company if it cracked entirely (rarely happens!) So, if that happened to me my warranty would be a better (and free) option. If I lost the diamond out of the setting, I would use the warranty as well, because, again, no deductible ($500), and I would have it replaced by Ben Bridge, not the jeweler of my insurance company''s chosing. ( Most require that you use their preferred provider or take a ''cash out'' at wholesale prices). So, while an insurance policy is necessary for the ring that is lost entirely, or stolen, it would be nice to have an easy, free option to use first in the case of these type of losses, especially if it comes free of charge with the purchase of the ring! So, having said all that, she reminded me, that you should read your policy very carefully before purchasing, to make sure your coverage is appropriate and adequate.
 
Also, is there any reason to stay away from Blue Nile? I''ve read about good experiences with them on this forum... I was wondering though, does anyone know if they offer ideal scope or 10x-40x pictures of the diamonds upon request? To be honest... I also like their Bill me later plan they have... at 23 I think it''d be more prudent to make a contribution to my Roth than to spend it all just before the cut off
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