Next move? Over graded

[MollyMalone]

* * * Size, not a deal breaker, but based on what I see here I think a g-h, vs2-si1 (eye clean), excellent cut (see gypsy's post) diamond in the 1.70-1.80 should be reasonable. Am I flexible? Sure. But I want a nice looking ring that would be of value objectively.

I think you may need to scale back your expectations of more than 1.5 ct. You are looking at current prices from online retailers in the PS database, not 2012-2013 prices from a B&M shop. Take a look at the historical data for prices in the PS database, and you'll see that you have to go back to early 2011 to find equally low prices there for 1-2 ct stones:

What IDEX graphs for public viewing doesn't go back further than April 2011, but here too you'll see how today's wholesale prices (current as of Friday) are lower than at any point from April 2011 through early 2015:

 

[pyramid]

The rest of the world did not change with Pricescope, lots of people still value Colorless and near colorless (G-H) stones.
What happens if you try to sell a stone and most people say oh wouldn't go below a G with Ideal Cut. What happens to the
3 carat K SI1s then. They get sold on ebay ofcourse. Otherwise sell to a jeweller and get the going rate, second hand does not
care about cut the same as they do about colour and clarity. This is because the world likes valuable diamonds not just
as big as you can which looks good to the eye with a camouflaged cut.

 

[pyramid]

Very good point.

* * * Size, not a deal breaker, but based on what I see here I think a g-h, vs2-si1 (eye clean), excellent cut (see gypsy's post) diamond in the 1.70-1.80 should be reasonable. Am I flexible? Sure. But I want a nice looking ring that would be of value objectively.

I think you may need to scale back your expectations of more than 1.5 ct. You are looking at current prices from online retailers in the PS database, not 2012-2013 prices from a B&M shop. Take a look at the historical data for prices in the PS database, and you'll see that you have to go back to early 2011 to find equally low prices there for 1-2 ct stones:

What IDEX graphs for public viewing doesn't go back further than April 2011, but here too you'll see how today's wholesale prices (current as of Friday) are lower than at any point from April 2011 through early 2015:

 

[pyramid]

Yes the public has lost interest in diamonds because they are not seen as valuable anymore, just what you can see with your
eye and a good cut. I am not being mean with this statement I believe this is what has happened. So much has been written
about how they are not rare, there are stockpiles, people buy lower colours with ideal cut and they are seen as just as good.
No one tries to tell people that a D VVS1 is still rare and valuable. Those who can afford them, see people with other large stones
(of lower quality material) saying they are just as good. So they move onto another rare buy instead or better still put their money in houses and holidays and cars.

These large stones of lower colour are still expensive. Young people getting engaged are not interested in a 30 point stone of
high colour or clarity, they want a large stone like their parents had. Valuable rare has gone. Cannot afford a large stone at
21 say so not really interested as there is nothing rare just size which they cannot get. So when you can't get it, you don't
want it so you go with your peers and value something else,spend money on mobile phones, expensive drinks, holidays etc.

Diamonds are finished I think, they have been devalued due to Ideal Cut making lower colours look better and the working
class can afford them. Not rare. Well they can be but they just look the same and are a waste of money people think.

 

[pyramid]

Cut is the enemy of Intrigue, but the enabler of beauty.

 

[pyramid]

I suppose though a rare D VVS1 6 carat diamond will hold its value the same as a 5 carat rare ruby. It is just that the cut
has not been selling the lower rubies to everyone. A ruby is rare to find too. Can't find a good unheated one of good size for
much under $20,000. Therefore rare diamonds are still rare like rubies are. We just can't afford them, most of us.

 

[Sphene]

wow Pyramid if you had time to put those answers together you had time to help Dad to find something in his price range with your specifications and push Gypsy and DS's options to the wall or not according to what Dad's ultimate specifications turn out to be.

I just hope he sticks around and gets the help he deserves to make his SO happy.

Good luck Dad

 

[msop04]

7. It's not us. It's you. YOU are the problem. Not your opinions. YOU. That's why no one listens. Because you are rude, insulting, devalue what we say and what we do. And then you refuse to take any responsibility for it and blame US for your defects. You want someone to blame, look in the mirror. See #2.


.......and this above is not rude!!

Most of the world is not listening to you and there are posts on the internet where people talk about how biased the information
here is.

Sounds like a good place for you to be...

 

[pyramid]

Wow indeed. He has a jeweller. I am not trying to poach him to make an online sale.

He can look up and has done the pricescope pricelists, he knows from Mollymalone now about the prices back in early 2011, he
can make up his own mind about colour and clarity, people don't need a biased point of view just to read and educate themselves.
I hope he gets a better diamond than the large lower quality one. That is the point of my posts. Large is not the best diamond
unless you can afford it. You were not on the forum back in the days when people like Gypsy were informing posters not to
go below a G-H colour and VS2, maybe some SI1 if you could see it and try to maximise to a 1 carat stone. If they had more money
they upped the colour and clarity. Then something changed, dealers started to promote J colour to get a larger stone, so the Gypsy
helpers started to promote that too, then they went to lower colour and now to lower clarity. Just follow along and do what
they say, don't spend your own money and inform yourself. Difference is that back then, the helpers were jewellers, dealers, appraisers, gemmologists and then it became Mara and a few others and the jewellers were withdrawn and
told they could not comment on another dealers stone. The appraisers, lots of them went too. Now it is just prosumers who
do not appreciate rarity only size. Oh and low and behold you if you appreciate rarity and not size. Then you are
criticised and told to help out on the board, for nothing in return like they do. NO, BEING TOLD TO HELP OUT ON THE BOARD AND
NOT CRITICISE IS JUST CHANGING THE SUBJECT. It still means that lower quality diamonds are lower priced, barring total
cost of size upping the price of them. I don't mind charity but not helping business
men who are not employing me.

Oh and they promoted their friends they have bought from over and over and over and over again.

But then I am rude for noticing this.

I sometimes think they are unwise, for just being too into diamonds and they become a board to read to
wonder what is she still here, selling diamonds for these dealers, years later. Yes I just read these boards
but I am not going to work here for a few hours a day.

 

[Niel]

I suppose though a rare D VVS1 6 carat diamond will hold its value the same as a 5 carat rare ruby. It is just that the cut
has not been selling the lower rubies to everyone. A ruby is rare to find too. Can't find a good unheated one of good size for
much under $20,000. Therefore rare diamonds are still rare like rubies are. We just can't afford them, most of us.

Pyramid, maybe start your own thread about how right you are and leave Dads thread for what he needs?

 

[msop04]

People are made fun of here for wearing large diamonds with very low clarity and they are called frozen spit.

Again, there you go insulting a high percentage of PS members, since you think anything below F/VS is "low quality"... I've yet to see this "frozen spit" you speak of -- do tell!

I have a 3.33 I/SI2 (:: shock :: horror :: ) with an amazing cut, and I can assure you, it doesn't resemble anything near spit. It's amazing, beautiful, and I happen to adore it.

You are quite possibly the rudest person on PS. You constantly come on here to complain and insult others.

There are tons of members who have GORGEOUS stones that are H and lower color and SI... so their stones are "frozen spit" too, I guess?

You are ridiculous.

 

[msop04]

I suppose though a rare D VVS1 6 carat diamond will hold its value the same as a 5 carat rare ruby. It is just that the cut
has not been selling the lower rubies to everyone. A ruby is rare to find too. Can't find a good unheated one of good size for
much under $20,000. Therefore rare diamonds are still rare like rubies are. We just can't afford them, most of us.

Pyramid, maybe start your own thread about how right you are and leave Dads thread for what he needs?

Sounds like a good idea, Niel...

 

[pyramid]

You too msop, stop piling on.

 

[pyramid]

I don't think so Neill.

 

[msop04]

I don't mind charity but not helping business
men who are not employing me.

Oh and they promoted their friends they have bought from over and over and over and over again.

But then I am rude for noticing this.

I sometimes think they are unwise, for just being too into diamonds and they become a board to read to
wonder what is she still here, selling diamonds for these dealers, years later. Yes I just read these boards
but I am not going to work here for a few hours a day.

For the millionth time, no one is getting kickbacks from vendors... your song and dance is old and tired. Get off it... or just get off.

People help others here for hours a day because they genuinely enjoy it. Since you clearly do not, then there's not much need in your being here, no?

 

[pyramid]

No no no, frozen spit was the term used by Gypsy's predecessors who promoted 1 carat D VS1 stones, not my term.

So you never read the forum pages from back then, with all your time here, you will see the stone promoted were the
opposite of those promoted now. Oh but I am wrong, and the people who have changed what is being sold here are
right.

All right pile away, there is a world full of people who think like me, we don't all buy this product that is promoted here.
There are like other things you buy, different qualities and different people to buy them. Just don't tell them they do not
need buttons, they need a zip, like you do with people saying they don't need VS1s. So then, cut is just a way of selling stones
but because rubies are not clear cut doesn't really sell them. Therefore rarity matters as it has always done in the world
of selling diamonds and gemstones expect.....on this board, where cut sells the clear ones, well clear to the naked eye.

 

[MollyMalone]

Pyramid, I thought it a shame you've highjacked yet another thread with your rambling musings (much of which is internally inconsistent BTW) on the state of the diamond marketplace. But these latest posts of yours, squarely defaming both volunteers who spend far more time than you actually helping others (frankly, given the bandwidth here that was devoted helping you in your searches for diamonds, it seems to me you could pay a bit of that forward) & vendors, is unconscionable.
Please start another thread on these topics so that they can be aired without adding unnecessary "noise" to discussion that will be of assistance to dad.

 

[Niel]

I don't think so Neill.

Oh ok. Keep posting here then. It's super helpful to the OP and you're definitely getting your point across

 

[pyramid]

I don't mind charity but not helping business
men who are not employing me.

Oh and they promoted their friends they have bought from over and over and over and over again.

But then I am rude for noticing this.

I sometimes think they are unwise, for just being too into diamonds and they become a board to read to
wonder what is she still here, selling diamonds for these dealers, years later. Yes I just read these boards
but I am not going to work here for a few hours a day.

For the millionth time, no one is getting kickbacks from vendors... your song and dance is old and tired. Get off it... or just get off.

People help others here for hours a day because they genuinely enjoy it. Since you clearly do not, then there's not much need in your being here, no?

I know they are not getting kick backs they are just naïve enough to think they will get priority if they promote stones from their
favourite jeweller. However, vendors are making millions of you, the world is a big place, the internet even bigger, Gypsy or
Diamondseeker recommend stones for a night, say to 5 people each, but 8 thousand people are watching and buying from those
same vendors after they promote them. Other stones but good free advertising. Bit like Wallmart really closing down the stores,
all these online people don't need to go to their local jeweller who does not have the goods mostly anyway because they can't
compete. No wonder Gypsy and Diamondseeker pull in 56,000 new customers a week for the vendors. Millions of dollars and
they don't even get a box of chocolate. So I am wrong okay, but you are naïve, very much so, unless you get money, which
I know you don't, so that leaves naïve. There Gypsy I can be very rude but I feel sorry for you all in a way, not a mocking way,
just a hobby is fine but you are lining others pockets.

I won't be posting here anymore, not running away because you all say things, but just eventually I am seeing the light of
this place and it's posters. Notice most people are not staying around here when the purchase is made at low cost to them.
There are no real educators here now anyway, just one agenda. We never really learn anything other than buy low colour as
it looks the same from the top.

 

[Niel]

I don't mind charity but not helping business
men who are not employing me.

Oh and they promoted their friends they have bought from over and over and over and over again.

But then I am rude for noticing this.

I sometimes think they are unwise, for just being too into diamonds and they become a board to read to
wonder what is she still here, selling diamonds for these dealers, years later. Yes I just read these boards
but I am not going to work here for a few hours a day.

For the millionth time, no one is getting kickbacks from vendors... your song and dance is old and tired. Get off it... or just get off.

People help others here for hours a day because they genuinely enjoy it. Since you clearly do not, then there's not much need in your being here, no?

I know they are not getting kick backs they are just naïve enough to think they will get priority if they promote stones from their
favourite jeweller. However, vendors are making millions of you, the world is a big place, the internet even bigger, Gypsy or
Diamondseeker recommend stones for a night, say to 5 people each, but 8 thousand people are watching and buying from those
same vendors after they promote them. Other stones but good free advertising. Bit like Wallmart really closing down the stores,
all these online people don't need to go to their local jeweller who does not have the goods mostly anyway because they can't
compete. No wonder Gypsy and Diamondseeker pull in 56,000 new customers a week for the vendors. Millions of dollars and
they don't even get a box of chocolate. So I am wrong okay, but you are naïve, very much so, unless you get money, which
I know you don't, so that leaves naïve. There Gypsy I can be very rude but I feel sorry for you all in a way, not a mocking way,
just a hobby is fine but you are lining others pockets.

I won't be posting here anymore, not running away because you all say things, but just eventually I am seeing the light of
this place and it's posters. Notice most people are not staying around here when the purchase is made at low cost to them.
There are no real educators here now anyway, just one agenda. We never really learn anything other than buy low colour as
it looks the same from the top.

Good bye, cruel Pricescope!

 

[denverappraiser]

There are no real educators here now anyway, just one agenda.

None?

There's you. There's me. There's John Pollard. There's David Atlas. There's Serg. There's Rhino. And TexasLeager. There are plenty of others so please don't take offence anyone I left off. I don't disagree that everyone has some sort of agenda that may or may not be visible, but it's not really correct to say the whole forum is in lock step. The reason I'm here is precisely to provide education and having the minority opinions check out simply because they're a minority is exactly the problem you're seeing. I, for one, value your contributions. Thanks for sticking around.

 

[msop04]

No no no, frozen spit was the term used by Gypsy's predecessors who promoted 1 carat D VS1 stones, not my term.

So you never read the forum pages from back then, with all your time here, you will see the stone promoted were the
opposite of those promoted now. Oh but I am wrong, and the people who have changed what is being sold here are
right.

All right pile away, there is a world full of people who think like me, we don't all buy this product that is promoted here.
There are like other things you buy, different qualities and different people to buy them. Just don't tell them they do not
need buttons, they need a zip, like you do with people saying they don't need VS1s. So then, cut is just a way of selling stones
but because rubies are not clear cut doesn't really sell them. Therefore rarity matters as it has always done in the world
of selling diamonds and gemstones expect.....on this board, where cut sells the clear ones, well clear to the naked eye.

It would behoove you to strongly consider NOT LIVING IN THE PAST. Things change, styles change, preferences change, PEOPLE CHANGE. If you can't change, then it would be a good idea to surround yourself with said people who think like you. Why even be on this forum, if you can only b!tch, moan, insult, and constantly complain?? Geeeezzzz...

 

[msop04]

I don't mind charity but not helping business
men who are not employing me.

Oh and they promoted their friends they have bought from over and over and over and over again.

But then I am rude for noticing this.

I sometimes think they are unwise, for just being too into diamonds and they become a board to read to
wonder what is she still here, selling diamonds for these dealers, years later. Yes I just read these boards
but I am not going to work here for a few hours a day.

For the millionth time, no one is getting kickbacks from vendors... your song and dance is old and tired. Get off it... or just get off.

People help others here for hours a day because they genuinely enjoy it. Since you clearly do not, then there's not much need in your being here, no?

I know they are not getting kick backs they are just naïve enough to think they will get priority if they promote stones from their
favourite jeweller. However, vendors are making millions of you, the world is a big place, the internet even bigger, Gypsy or
Diamondseeker recommend stones for a night, say to 5 people each, but 8 thousand people are watching and buying from those
same vendors after they promote them. Other stones but good free advertising. Bit like Wallmart really closing down the stores,
all these online people don't need to go to their local jeweller who does not have the goods mostly anyway because they can't
compete. No wonder Gypsy and Diamondseeker pull in 56,000 new customers a week for the vendors. Millions of dollars and
they don't even get a box of chocolate. So I am wrong okay, but you are naïve, very much so, unless you get money, which
I know you don't, so that leaves naïve. There Gypsy I can be very rude but I feel sorry for you all in a way, not a mocking way,
just a hobby is fine but you are lining others pockets.

I won't be posting here anymore, not running away because you all say things, but just eventually I am seeing the light of
this place and it's posters. Notice most people are not staying around here when the purchase is made at low cost to them.
There are no real educators here now anyway, just one agenda. We never really learn anything other than buy low colour as
it looks the same from the top.

Good bye, cruel Pricescope!

Peace out, pyramid!

...now moving on - FINALLY!

 

[yssie]

So much to respond to... My maintain point is to get a diamond for a SO for an engagement ring. I want to make sure my money pays for something that is objectively worth the 16k I originally paid. I understand this is not an investment like buying gold would be. But I I hope to get more than a GIA j, i2.

Size, not a deal breaker, but based on what I see here I think a g-h, vs2-si1 (eye clean), excellent cut (see gypsy's post) diamond in the 1.70-1.80 should be reasonable. Am I flexible? Sure. But I want a nice looking ring that would be of value objectively.

I think this is a smart plan with a couple of caveats. My goal for you is to get you something that is worth the money expended. I think the dealer is being VERY reasonable and clearly values customer satisfaction and their reputation over short term gain. So I think that deserves you being reasonable in your expectations as well.

Here's what I think you and the other posters are overlooking. You originally thought you were buying an SI2. And you were happy with that. Now, the stone you have is actually an I2. Clearly if clarity was a big issue for you, this stone would not have been acceptable to you when you bought it. So personally, I think that being open to Si1 is an upgrade ALREADY. I think being open to Vs2 is smart as well. It expands your range of choices. That was my goal. That's why I said, in my last post to you to put a FLOOR of Si1. I did NOT say put a ceiling of VS on there. Why? Because often when I have searched for stones for people the best CHOICE has been a higher clarity stone, because the lower clarity options are few and far between as the size they wanted was very popular and the selection was low. SO, I think it's a mistake to set ANY ceiling. If an H IF is the best cut stone this guy can find you, then that's the stone you should take.

Also regarding color. You've had a J stone for several years you THOUGHT was a G. So... frankly, you probably aren't color sensitive either. An H or an I even would still be an upgrade AND a better value for you.


So here's what I think you should do.

PRIORITIZE the C's for this jeweler. Tell him the most important C for you is cut. Then give him the cut parameters either I or Diamondseeker gave you. Either set will provide you with a nice stone. Tell him the next most important C for you is color and that you would strongly prefer something at G/H. Then clarity and size are tied and that you have a minimum clarity requirement of Si1 and a minimum size requirement of 1.6 carats.

That way you have clearly communicated your needs and then see what he can find you.

I also think that you should invest $30 in an idealscope and 10 minutes of time into learning how to use it. That way you can tell, in person, if the stones you have are performing well.

Okay? Sound like a plan?

Now, forgive our squabbling, but I am going to respond to TP. We are like one big dysfunctional family here. Squabbles happen.

Ditto. Thritto?

This OP's jeweller is being astoundingly cooperative w/ what I personally feel is a thoroughly unreasonable request: it's been years, and any vendor would be well within his rights to say "sorry, it's far too late".

Given that, I definitely think the OP has an obligation to be reasonable with a side of forgiving when it comes to setting the floor. Prices were much higher a few years ago, his stone has been worn for years and we don't know what condition it's in now - we don't know whether it's condition still matches the description in the GIA... Any expectation of trading like for like per today's retail pricing is, as Molly pointed out, most unlikely to bear fruit.

 

[yssie]

Cut is the enemy of Intrigue, but the enabler of beauty.

I just have to say that I love this line And I see a lot of truth in it.


I also understand what pyramid is trying to say, although I don't think it's coming across well.

We don't know if OP wants "eye clean" or "mind clean" (I mean overall, not clarity). We don't know with certainty if his reason for purchasing what he thought was a G was because he wanted something that looked white or because he wanted to pay tribute to the rarity of a G coloured stone.

Given that he also purchased SI2 I'm agreeing with Gypsy - OP's priorities are most probably practical: does it look white to me? Does it look included to me? Does it sparkle? And for those priorities her advice is dead on.
If rarity was something he was invested in, perhaps if he was from a culture known to value high colour/clarity, the advice given would change.

Pyramid - I think that's what you're not seeing. Gypsy, DS, the other veterans - the advice they give is tailored to the OP's needs; it's not a copy/paste job for all new buyers. More importantly - I said "we don't know with certainty" above. Most people who come on here to buy a diamond don't want advice of the "find yourself" variety - they want "for the love of all that's holy please give me the A-G of picking a decent stone so I can be done with this thing!" help.

Gypsy, DS, they don't NEED the OP to tell us whether the goal is practical or mental. They don't NEED the OP to say whether mind clean or eyeclean (again, overall, not specific to clarity) is the driving priority. They can infer it from the request and respond accordingly. Sure, a small percentage of those inferences will be wrong, but doing it this way is a thousand times more helpful to the OP.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The very funny thing is, our general standards here on PS are MUCH higher than the majority of people who buy diamonds at mall stores and mom and pop brick and mortar stores. I've been here for more than 10 years, now, and I recall one of the prominent posters at that time was Mara, who was on a quest to upgrade to a larger stone. I know at some point early on she upgraded to a J ideal cut round, and now I think she has an antique stone over 3 cts that is possibly lower than J in color. So I have never been here at a time where D-F was the primary recommendation or choice by members here. I would happily own an F color if I wanted to go to about a 1.5 ct rather than a 2.3 ct, but I chose the larger stone with I color. That's how I personally chose to balance my specs, although I would have taken an H color instead had that been an option (I color was the highest color he had in my size range). The one thing here most of us agree on is not to compromise on cut. The color and clarity preferences run the gamut of high to low. As Gypsy said so well, we can all express our personal preferences while respecting the preferences of others. And almost everyone here knows that those of us with a lot of posts do this as a HOBBY because we love diamonds and jewelry and it is a relatively inexpensive way of enjoying the hobby!

 

[Ella]

Please take the cut and color preference arguments to another thread.

 

[dad]

Just as a heads up, I agree that the vendor is being reasonable, and I appreciate his working with me. I understand he is not obligated to, but wants to to make things right by me. That said, I agree and plan to be reasonable myself, of course that is the right thing to do.

As for the stone, the Gia grade was done last week and I never had the stone anywhere but a box (long story). Bought in in 2011.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice and will keep all posted.

 

[msop04]

Just as a heads up, I agree that the vendor is being reasonable, and I appreciate his working with me. I understand he is not obligated to, but wants to to make things right by me. That said, I agree and plan to be reasonable myself, of course that is the right thing to do.

As for the stone, the Gia grade was done last week and I never had the stone anywhere but a box (long story). Bought in in 2011.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice and will keep all posted.

OP, I'm so glad your jeweler is being so cool about all this -- you're luckier than most! Can't wait to see what you decide!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have to agree, I am very impressed with this jeweler thus far. Looking forward to seeing how he works this out for you! I agree with Molly, I think, who said you might need to adjust your expectations to the 1.5 ct range for a GIA XXX stone. Best of luck to you!