Gypsy
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2005
- Messages
- 40,225
Pyramid|1461461419|4022944 said:I am just questioning the knowledge base...
depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above
note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!
AdaBeta27|1461600592|4023376 said:Pyramid|1461461419|4022944 said:I am just questioning the knowledge base...
^ And I concur with you. Sometimes, especially with large stones, the advice to go lower in color or lower in clarity to get size must be taken with caution. And the reasons for that are:
1. As the diamonds increase in mass, the SIZE of INCLUSIONS that can graded SI1 or SI2 also increases, making it darned hard and rare to find a 100% eyeclean SI1 or SI2 in a 1.8ct or 2ct or more.
2. As the diamonds increase in weight (mass), they also concentrate tint more. It may be impossible to tell what color a .33ct mounted in a ring is without close inspection, you might find that I or J or lower in a large (like 1.7 - 2ct) diamond is so evident that you can't stand it. I have a 1.8ct J or K in a platinum ring. Especially under ordinary bluish fluorescent office lighting, that diamond (from the side) shows an unmistakable amount it tint. I can see why jewelers say stop at H, because for me, if I wanted a colorless or near colorless look, I have to go UP in color along with size. Not lower in color, as so many on PS seem to recommend.
To the OP: Twinning wisps are a good possibility to look for if you want eyeclean SI1 or SI2, as they often look bad on paper but look eyeclean in person. But here's the caution: Twinning wisps can adversely affect the brilliance. There are threads on PS about twining wisps. There is no easy recipe for getting a big eyeclean SI1 or SI2 diamond. Even VS1 or VS2 might show inclusions from the side, or at a tilt. Ask lots of questions and inspect the diamond carefully. I bought a not 100% eyecleam SI2 that is a fantastic diamond. The grade setting inclusion didn't show at all in the vendor's pictures except darkfield. I actually wore that ring at least 2 days before I even noticed the inclusion. But, now that I know where it is, that diamond will never be "eyeclean" to me. But I'm a person who doesn't need high clarity. I bought this diamond for myself, and it cost me half of what a VS1 would have cost. Also, most people will only see my big diamond(s) at arm's length, so nobody but me and the people I tell will ever notice that's it's not "flawless."
ETA: Ooops. I posted this before I read the moderator's comment about color and clarity arguments. I hope this doesn't violate terms of the board. But since the OP appears to still be evaluating options and trade-offs, I'll leave this post as-written.
AdaBeta27|1461603974|4023392 said:There's what's called a "60/60" diamond, 60% table, 60% depth. Those can be good or bad. They are spready, relatively shallow, can face up "big" for their carat weight, and are usually more biased toward brilliance and brightness than fire. That's what you get (white light) from large tables and shallow depth and shallower crown angle. Fire (dispersion) comes from smaller tables and steeper crown angle. The "Pricescope standard" parameters that Gypsy or somebody gave are aimed at giving a good balance between fire and brilliance, and in all lighting conditions. There are good and bad 60/60 diamonds.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond
There's an older, strict "cheat sheet" that originalted with Todd Gray of Nice Ice .com, who used to be a vender on here. You might look at the 5 minutes and 15 minutes to success articles at niceice.com just for a quick summary of buying "by the numbers."
I like small table 55-56%, and I like the fatter arrows so I look for Lower Girdle Facets more like 77. LGF 80 gives a more splintery loo, and I prefer arrows to be a bit chunky. (Arrows look black in photos but irl they are alternately flashes of white light or colored light.) I like broader, chunkier flashes. Some people like more splintery ones, like the Solasfera diamond's look.
Avoid the GIA excellent "Steep / deep" that's a deep stone with steep crown angle and also steep pavilion. They face up small for their carat weight and also are usually bad performers. Crown and pavilion angles have to work together. Generally increase one means must decrease the other, for performance's sake. The HCA cut adviser will help you flag combinations that are likely to be duds.
dad|1461602706|4023387 said:Thanks for the helpful advice... based on what I have gathered so far, I think this is what I will mention when the vendor asks what I am looking for. This is based, largely, on the information from Gypsy.
Again, I want an eye clean diamond worth approximately $16k.
Here's what I am thinking about mentioning: "In general I am looking for a GIA3X stone. I am looking for a G color and something eye clean for clarity (Si1). For the cut, I am looking for a table of 60% or less, and a depth between 59 and 62.4. The crown angle I am looking for is in the range of 33.5-35 with the pavilion angle ranging from 40.6-40.8. Of course, I am somewhat flexible on the combinations of the characteristics, but I wanted to give you something like a description of an 'ideal' diamond. I imagine the carats will depend on how the various characteristics come together as well."
Thoughts are appreciated.
diamondseeker2006|1461623298|4023507 said:dad|1461602706|4023387 said:Thanks for the helpful advice... based on what I have gathered so far, I think this is what I will mention when the vendor asks what I am looking for. This is based, largely, on the information from Gypsy.
Again, I want an eye clean diamond worth approximately $16k.
Here's what I am thinking about mentioning: "In general I am looking for a GIA3X stone. I am looking for a G color and something eye clean for clarity (Si1). For the cut, I am looking for a table of 60% or less, and a depth between 59 and 62.4. The crown angle I am looking for is in the range of 33.5-35 with the pavilion angle ranging from 40.6-40.8. Of course, I am somewhat flexible on the combinations of the characteristics, but I wanted to give you something like a description of an 'ideal' diamond. I imagine the carats will depend on how the various characteristics come together as well."
Thoughts are appreciated.
You are really limiting him by only giving him one color and clarity grade. You will have a better chance of getting a great stone if you are just a little more flexible such as G-H, VS2-SI1 or whatever range you want. I'd go a little tighter on cut, though, and just say, "I am interested primarily in GIA Excellent cut stones within or very close to these parameters: table: 54-58 (or up to 59 if you really want that), depth 60-62.3, crown angle 34-35.0, pavilion angle 40.6-40.9." These are measurements that generally will fall into ideal cut (and are basically the parameters some of the vendors here use for their top cut categories). I would not go outside of these without an ASET image, and you probably won't get that.
How exciting! Please do keep us posted! [emoji4]dad said:Hi Gypsy, thanks for the help tweaking the note. I went ahead and sent it to him and we will see what he says. Thanks!
60/60 don't face up 'big' for their carat weight. They face up what a carat diamond should face up that is around 6.5mm. Other combinations may face up big or small for their carat weight.AdaBeta27 said:There's what's called a "60/60" diamond, 60% table, 60% depth. Those can be good or bad. They are spready, relatively shallow, can face up "big" for their carat weight, and are usually more biased toward brilliance and brightness than fire. That's what you get (white light) from large tables and shallow depth and shallower crown angle. Fire (dispersion) comes from smaller tables and steeper crown angle. The "Pricescope standard" parameters that Gypsy or somebody gave are aimed at giving a good balance between fire and brilliance, and in all lighting conditions. There are good and bad 60/60 diamonds.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond
There's an older, strict "cheat sheet" that originalted with Todd Gray of Nice Ice .com, who used to be a vender on here. You might look at the 5 minutes and 15 minutes to success articles at niceice.com just for a quick summary of buying "by the numbers."
I like small table 55-56%, and I like the fatter arrows so I look for Lower Girdle Facets more like 77. LGF 80 gives a more splintery loo, and I prefer arrows to be a bit chunky. (Arrows look black in photos but irl they are alternately flashes of white light or colored light.) I like broader, chunkier flashes. Some people like more splintery ones, like the Solasfera diamond's look.
Avoid the GIA excellent "Steep / deep" that's a deep stone with steep crown angle and also steep pavilion. They face up small for their carat weight and also are usually bad performers. Crown and pavilion angles have to work together. Generally increase one means must decrease the other, for performance's sake. The HCA cut adviser will help you flag combinations that are likely to be duds.
From an old thread on here, I think this was written by Lorelei:
depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above
note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!
gr8leo87 said:60/60 don't face up 'big' for their carat weight. They face up what a carat diamond should face up that is around 6.5mm. Other combinations may face up big or small for their carat weight.
P.S Assuming a well cut 60/60 diamond not the wonky examples of 60/60 on Pricescope wiki.
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dad|1463673430|4033552 said:Okay! So the vendor sent me three options here to think about for replacing the stone. For those of you interested, the three stones (based on our recommendations) are pictured here. I would appreciate your opinions!
dad|1463673430|4033552 said:Okay! So the vendor sent me three options here to think about for replacing the stone. For those of you interested, the three stones (based on our recommendations) are pictured here. I would appreciate your opinions!
Texas Leaguer|1463694202|4033732 said:dad|1463673430|4033552 said:Okay! So the vendor sent me three options here to think about for replacing the stone. For those of you interested, the three stones (based on our recommendations) are pictured here. I would appreciate your opinions!
Dad,
I know you are getting a lot of good advice here. I would just like to say that I am happy for you that the merchant is working to resolve your situation. I think you are one of the fortunate ones in this regard.
It looks to me like with the first stone (cert2) you would be trading your original position of a 2.11 J I2 for a 1.55 G Si1 Triple Ex. That is BIG move in the right direction. It would not be unreasonable to bring that one in and take a look at it and make sure you like it visually.
While you might be able to hold the merchants feet to the fire and insist on all kinds of specific criteria, you might be well advised to make a swift move to resolve your problem. What I am saying I guess is, if you make it too difficult for the merchant to do the right thing by you, he might begin to be lose interest in doing so.
You of course would have a better feel for the relationship, but I would not want to see you lose out on an opportunity to improve your position significantly. In some cases, as the saying goes, "perfection is the enemy of good".