Now It's San Bernardino

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I stand corrected. I wouldn't want to mischaracterize what you said.


Annette

 

[kenny]

I think the primary problem is the cadre of Americans suffering from But We're Special syndrome.

Strict gun control works. It works in other countries. It works in other countries that neighbour warzones. It works in other countries that neighbour developing nations.
But it won't work for us, of course, because We're Special.
Our founding fathers said two hundred years ago that people should have the inalienable right to arm themselves... to protect themselves from government tyranny. Thing is... things change over a couple of centuries. Needs change. Shouldn't rights change accordingly?
But... We're Special, darnit!!!

And Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People... so the obvious solution is to address the problem people.
The problem people could be... well. Anyone (excluding law enforcement) with a gun.
So... yeah, I'll say it: take away their guns. ALL their guns. And give them back to the very few who can give a darn good reason for owning one (hunting, Jordy's wildlife are two obvious examples).
It won't solve all our problems. But I'll bet... the lives of my loved ones... that it'll solve a heck of a lot of problems.
I don't have anything more precious than that to bet.

Not that my opinion matters - I'm not one of the Special ones

The rest of the world doesn't think much of our But We're Special syndrome - but of course they're all wrong, and they can't possibly understand, they don't live here and they just don't see how Special we are...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/the-chilling-way-foreign-media-talk-about-gun-violence-in-america/?tid=sm_fb

Excellent post.
America has lots of of spoiled brats.
We also have some good people too.

I'm an American who does not consider myself 'special' because I'm American.
Frankly I'm often ashamed of some of the sh!t my country does.

 

[Laila619]

I disagree with Kenny, and do think there are areas that are war zones. Chicago(parts ) is one. ...

Careful.
I'm fine with people disagreeing with me but please don't mischaracterize what I wrote.

Here I have quoted the exchange you must be referring to ...

Americans are living in a war zone, every day.

Exaggeration.
Just a couple of us.
US population is over 318 million.

Big whoop.

I'm sympathetic for the victim's families ... but I refuse to overreact.

I'm not afraid.
I have no desire to buy a gun.
Life goes on as usual.

Lalia619 wrote, "Americans", but you wrote "areas".
There is a huge difference between all of America and areas of America, and this difference is central to my point.

My point: All Americans should not become fearful.
2 or 3 more of these attacks and our fear and hysteria will elect President Trump to execute everyone not in the master race!

The risk is very very tiny that any of us will die in a mass shooting, whether it's a disgruntled worker or terrorist or some other motivation.
The risk of being killed in a car accident is very very huge ... yet we are still in love with our cars AND the vast majority of us speed, tailgate and MANY text while driving.

Perspective, people.

Also, as with many things there's ... Follow the money!
The media, the government, and the military industrial complex get rich by fanning our deepest and most powerful emotion, fear.

Yes, cars pose risks, and car accidents often result in death. However, most people need a car to live. In many areas of the US, public transportation is virtually non-existent, and if you want to work to make a living you need a car. The same can't be said about guns. We certainly don't need them.

 

[kenny]

Good point Lalia619.

But my point is mainly about irrational fear ... not so much about which is necessary.
BTW, LOTS of Americans consider guns to be a necessity.

But again, good point.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Terrorism is increasing. Groups are calling for lone wolf and other attacks in the West. Truthfully, I do not personally care for guns. But I am now feeling that it is becoming necessary to have them to defend ourselves. Terrorists and criminals will always be able to access guns. It is a mistake to prevent law abiding citizens to have guns and only allow the criminals and terrorists to have them. Yes, tightened licensing measures might prevent the mentally ill person from buying a gun and the angry worker would have a waiting period. But if there had been one armed security guard or anyone in that building yesterday who had concealed carry, there might have been lives saved. There are many cases where lives have been saved because someone was there to stop a killer. I will say this, I will strongly support banning those on the no-fly list from buying guns. Let's not make it easy for them!

This situation is terrorism, and changing gun laws is just not going to fix that problem. They had bombs which could have done even more damage than the guns did, had they had the chance to detonate them.

 

[momhappy]

I think the primary problem is the cadre of Americans suffering from But We're Special syndrome.

Strict gun control works. It works in other countries. It works in other countries that neighbour warzones. It works in other countries that neighbour developing nations.
But it won't work for us, of course, because We're Special.
Our founding fathers said two hundred years ago that people should have the inalienable right to arm themselves... to protect themselves from government tyranny. Thing is... things change over a couple of centuries. Needs change. Shouldn't rights change accordingly?
But... We're Special, darnit!!!

And Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People... so the obvious solution is to address the problem people.
The problem people could be... well. Anyone (excluding law enforcement) with a gun.
So... yeah, I'll say it: take away their guns. ALL their guns. And give them back to the very few who can give a darn good reason for owning one (hunting, Jordy's wildlife are two obvious examples).
It won't solve all our problems. But I'll bet... the lives of my loved ones... that it'll solve a heck of a lot of problems.
I don't have anything more precious than that to bet.

Not that my opinion matters - I'm not one of the Special ones

The rest of the world doesn't think much of our But We're Special syndrome - but of course they're all wrong, and they can't possibly understand, they don't live here and they just don't see how Special we are...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/the-chilling-way-foreign-media-talk-about-gun-violence-in-america/?tid=sm_fb

I'm genuinely curious - for those of you who think that guns should be taken away (with the exception of maybe a special few) - how do you propose that we go about that? I'm all ears, so please enlighten me I can't think of any way possible to remove millions upon millions of guns from American homes. There is simply no way. Shall we go door-to-door? With armed men? Because if you're confiscating guns, you'd likely need to carry a firearm in order to confiscate them.... And even if there was a way to successfully remove a vast quantity of guns from American homes, what would you propose we do about the guns that are bought and sold illegally? Because you know that since guns will still exist, people will find ways to own them, to use them, etc. I would love to think that we could come up with a solution to our gun violence problem, but taking away guns is not a solution because IMO, it's impossible.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Terrorism is increasing. Groups are calling for lone wolf and other attacks in the West. Truthfully, I do not personally care for guns. But I am now feeling that it is becoming necessary to have them to defend ourselves. Terrorists and criminals will always be able to access guns. It is a mistake to prevent law abiding citizens to have guns and only allow the criminals and terrorists to have them. Yes, tightened licensing measures might prevent the mentally ill person from buying a gun and the angry worker would have a waiting period. But if there had been one armed security guard or anyone in that building yesterday who had concealed carry, there might have been lives saved. There are many cases where lives have been saved because someone was there to stop a killer. I will say this, I will strongly support banning those on the no-fly list from buying guns. Let's not make it easy for them!

This situation is terrorism, and changing gun laws is just not going to fix that problem. They had bombs which could have done even more damage than the guns did, had they had the chance to detonate them.

Agree 101%... For some reasons the "anti gun group" thinks that if we were to outlaw all guns here in the U.S. the criminals and terrorists will obey the law...

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="momhappy|


I'm genuinely curious - for those of you who think that guns should be taken away (with the exception of maybe a special few) - how do you propose that we go about that? I'm all ears, so please enlighten me I can't think of any way possible to remove millions upon millions of guns from American homes. There is simply no way. Shall we go door-to-door? With armed men? [/quote]


There is a way to get some illegal guns off the street if the government were to offer $500 for every illegal guns turn in to their local police station with no Q asked.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

[quote="momhappy|


I'm genuinely curious - for those of you who think that guns should be taken away (with the exception of maybe a special few) - how do you propose that we go about that? I'm all ears, so please enlighten me I can't think of any way possible to remove millions upon millions of guns from American homes. There is simply no way. Shall we go door-to-door? With armed men?

There is a way to get some illegal guns off the street if the government were to offer $500 for every illegal guns turn in to their local police station with no Q asked.[/quote]

I would go for that idea!

 

[kenny]

Terrorism is increasing. Groups are calling for lone wolf and other attacks in the West. Truthfully, I do not personally care for guns. But I am now feeling that it is becoming necessary to have them to defend ourselves. Terrorists and criminals will always be able to access guns. It is a mistake to prevent law abiding citizens to have guns and only allow the criminals and terrorists to have them. Yes, tightened licensing measures might prevent the mentally ill person from buying a gun and the angry worker would have a waiting period. But if there had been one armed security guard or anyone in that building yesterday who had concealed carry, there might have been lives saved. There are many cases where lives have been saved because someone was there to stop a killer. I will say this, I will strongly support banning those on the no-fly list from buying guns. Let's not make it easy for them!

This situation is terrorism, and changing gun laws is just not going to fix that problem. They had bombs which could have done even more damage than the guns did, had they had the chance to detonate them.

Agree 101%... For some reasons the "anti gun group" thinks that if we were to outlaw all guns here in the U.S. the criminals and terrorists will obey the law...

No.
I dont' think that.

Like in gun-controled France there will still be an occasional shooting.
(Can't stop ALL guns.)

They just won't be DAILY mass-shootings like here in Gunmerica.
In Gunmerica they can laugh their @sses off at us as they massacre us with LEGALLY-purchased assault rifles.

 

[momhappy]

[quote="momhappy|


I'm genuinely curious - for those of you who think that guns should be taken away (with the exception of maybe a special few) - how do you propose that we go about that? I'm all ears, so please enlighten me I can't think of any way possible to remove millions upon millions of guns from American homes. There is simply no way. Shall we go door-to-door? With armed men?

There is a way to get some illegal guns off the street if the government were to offer $500 for every illegal guns turn in to their local police station with no Q asked.[/quote]

Maybe. Theoretically it could work, but what would the cost be, who would pay for it, where would the money come from, etc.? No one knows exactly how many guns there are in this country - it's very likely a staggering amount, which could obviously get very costly.
And don't think for a minute that just because someone "sold" their gun to the government, that they couldn't go back out and buy one again should the need arise. Criminals will always find a way to do business....
Research shows that gun buy-back programs are relatively ineffective.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/12/gun-buybacks-popular-but-ineffective/1829165/

 

[AGBF]

Someone wrote (was it momhappy?):

"I'm genuinely curious - for those of you who think that guns should be taken away (with the exception of maybe a special few) - how do you propose that we go about that? I'm all ears, so please enlighten me I can't think of any way possible to remove millions upon millions of guns from American homes. There is simply no way. Shall we go door-to-door? With armed men?"

I am not big on having the police force themselves into people's homes without warrants for any reason, and the idea of creating warrants to seize guns is repulsive to me. Police states are repulsive to me. So count me out if you think that's my idea of how to deal with gun violence.

I do like the idea of voluntary gun buybacks, which happen in big cities all the time. I also like the idea of ceasing the unrestricted flow of new guns to people. I am not advocating that we forcibly try to pry the guns out of people's cold, dead hands or warm, living hands! I love the idea of a total and complete ban on assault weapons, which no one needs to shoot a deer. And I have a few other ideas, too.

By the way, gun buyback programs would, of course, be ineffective if it remained legal to buy more guns to replace owns you turned in. I am proposing a buyback program along with making new guns impossible to buy. But I am NOT proposing we try to seize the guns people already own.


Deb/AGBF

 

[packrat]

ONE MAN MKES FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH SELLING ILLEGAL FIREARMS IN THIS COUNTRY. Who buys those guns? Not me. Not JD. Not my dad. Not my brother. How do those weapons find their way into this country? And what are those weapons being used for? Duck hunting? I bet not. Skeet shooting? Mmmmm probly no.

Go ahead and confiscate mine. But maybe, juuuust maybe, we need to quit ignoring things that are important. It is a vicious circle, and it's amazing to me how things are completely glossed over.

And yes, I meant "r" as in the letter "r". It just was easier to read as "R"-to me anyway, it just looked funny lower case w/the quotation marks around it.

 

[JaneSmith]

Here are all the senators who just voted against greater background checks.

Write to yours if you disagree.

 

[JaneSmith]

How do those weapons find their way into this country?

Made in the US. It's quite the business.

 

[AGBF]

How do those weapons find their way into this country?

Made in the US. It's quite the business.

And guns can be controlled from the supply side. Far more easily than drugs. Countries can make treaties not to have arms factories. Guns are something that users want to look right and operate well. As we all know, men take pride in having a special gun that is a certain brand that is known to everyone and admired by everyone. If it is German or American. A vintage Luger or a Colt 45 we all know its name. What about an Uzi?

If the major countries stopped arms manufacture and only a few poor islands with no experience turned out sub-par weapons that were sold illegally, they wouldn't be very sexy. But, then, I guess we couldn't go to war....

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

Here are all the senators who just voted against greater background checks.

What do all those Rs mean?

 

[packrat]

Here are all the senators who just voted against greater background checks.

What do all those Rs mean?

I think you be a'funnin us.

 

[momhappy]

Oh, right..... if you make buying assault rifles illegal, then no one will have access to them any more Because nobody ever obtains firearms illegally.....
Again, bad guys will always find ways to buy guns because even if certain types of guns are deemed illegal, guns will still exist, terrorism will still exist, emotionally unstable people will still exist, extremists will still exist..... Do you honestly believe that someone with enough hatred in their heart to want to gun down a room full of people would be deterred by a gun buy-back program, a ban an assault rifles, etc. I don't. I'm all for smarter, safer ways of selling the right guns to the right people, but even that isn't likely to make much of a dent in the real problem.

 

[JaneSmith]

Oh, right..... if you make buying assault rifles illegal, then no one will have access to them any more Because nobody ever obtains firearms illegally.....
Again, bad guys will always find ways to buy guns because even if certain types of guns are deemed illegal, guns will still exist, terrorism will still exist, emotionally unstable people will still exist, extremists will still exist..... Do you honestly believe that someone with enough hatred in their heart to want to gun down a room full of people would be deterred by a gun buy-back program, a ban an assault rifles, etc. I don't. I'm all for smarter, safer ways of selling the right guns to the right people, but even that isn't likely to make much of a dent in the real problem.

I will never understand this mindset.
Why have laws at all?

 

[LLJsmom]

I support increased funding for intelligence gathering to uncover more of these plots. They need to enforce more of the laws that are already in place. Bad guys that want guns will always be able to get them. So sad.

 

[AGBF]

Oh, right..... if you make buying assault rifles illegal, then no one will have access to them any more Because nobody ever obtains firearms illegally.....

Guess you missed my post. I suggested above that if we didn't manufacture the guns, that the macho types we currently fear wouldn't deign to spend their money on them because they would be so crummy. I mean, would our fancy US gangbangers or terrorists want weapons produced by an indigenous tribe in Paraguay who never learned Spanish? They only buy our arms-and would only buy them illegally-because they appear to be well-made. Stop making them!

AGBF

 

[packrat]

the issue w/it and the reason why it's brought up is b/c people act like it's going to magically solve all the problems, like suddenly the flow of illegal weapons will stop b/c oh hey now, we can't do that. Or that by banning guns, that bans murder. Lots of things are illegal and people still do them. Drugs for instance...something illegal which we are trying to make legal...b/c "lots of people do them and we may as make money off it" Other things are illegal and people still do them and there's little ramification for doing them, so why not? We're a country that really likes to run in and slap someone and run away screaming. We don't want to hurt anyone's tender sensibilities and fragile feelings. There's no THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AND IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. It's more along the lines of "ehh well gosh yanno..golly gee..I mean, he did grow up with an abusive parent..give him a break..this happened, we shouldn't be so hard on this person..." it's ok to kill people and it's ok to abuse people and it's ok to hurt children, here. *I* have a zero tolerance policy, but the country as a whole, has a fifty nine thousand chances policy, which is fifty nine thousand chances to commit another crime.

 

[AGBF]

Oh, right..... if you make buying assault rifles illegal, then no one will have access to them any more Because nobody ever obtains firearms illegally.....
Again, bad guys will always find ways to buy guns because even if certain types of guns are deemed illegal, guns will still exist, terrorism will still exist, emotionally unstable people will still exist, extremists will still exist..... Do you honestly believe that someone with enough hatred in their heart to want to gun down a room full of people would be deterred by a gun buy-back program, a ban an assault rifles, etc. I don't. I'm all for smarter, safer ways of selling the right guns to the right people, but even that isn't likely to make much of a dent in the real problem.

I will never understand this mindset.
Why have laws at all?

Thank goodness for reason. I wish it were not so underutilized.

 

[Laila619]

Oh, right..... if you make buying assault rifles illegal, then no one will have access to them any more Because nobody ever obtains firearms illegally.....
Again, bad guys will always find ways to buy guns because even if certain types of guns are deemed illegal, guns will still exist, terrorism will still exist, emotionally unstable people will still exist, extremists will still exist..... Do you honestly believe that someone with enough hatred in their heart to want to gun down a room full of people would be deterred by a gun buy-back program, a ban an assault rifles, etc. I don't. I'm all for smarter, safer ways of selling the right guns to the right people, but even that isn't likely to make much of a dent in the real problem.

I will never understand this mindset.
Why have laws at all?

I know, I'm mystified. Why have drunk driving laws? The hard-core alcoholics are going to drive drunk anyway. Why have laws against rape? A rapist who wants to rape will find a way to do it. This mindset makes no sense.

 

[momhappy]

Reason? You mean like thinking that if we don't manufacture guns, that people can't/won't buy them from elsewhere? Yeah, sounds reasonable to me
I've contributed more than I probably should have, so I'm going to move on to other discussions.
I'm saddened by the latest tragedy and obviously, I don't know what the answer is. I wish that I did. It's maddening and it's scary thinking about who/where will be the next target

 

[packrat]

JD's actually mentioned "why do we even HAVE these laws??" many many many times, when he's arresting someone for the eleventh time for driving drunk and they're right back out doing the same thing. When he's arrested someone for rape and it's pled down and dismissed.

Why DO we have laws? B/c they're not really working. If we're going to allow things to happen, then why? And if some things become "well, a lot of people do it so we may as well legalize it" and other things are "a lot of people do it and other people should be punished for it" and "a lot of people do it but we should just look the other way b/c they have challenges in their lives". Seems to me we have a lot of different variables in what we feel is illegal-illegal and legal-illegal and allowable w/in reason-illegal.

 

[Paz]

I just read on facebook that a girl I knew from elementary school, was injured in the attack.

Her mom said that Amanda was in charge of the holiday party, and had called a short break just before the shooting began. There would have been a lot more people in the room if the gunmen arrived before/after the break.

Syed stood directly over Amanda and shot her several times in the leg, but she said he chose not to shoot her in the head (as he was doing to others). She did suffer head wounds from shrapnel when the explosives went off, but nothing life-threatening.

She was rushed to Loma Linda Med Ctr for surgery on her femoral artery, as well as fixing the other GSWs to her leg. She's in stable condition and her mom is with her now.

I'm so thankful that she is one of the "lucky" ones. I know so many people who live/work/study at Loma Linda, and was waiting to hear a familiar name when the victims' identities were released.

Instead of debating gun policy, I'm just going to thank whatever it was that made Amanda decide to call breaktime at the holiday lunch, and be greatful for the lives it may have saved.

 

[AdaBeta27]

Terrorism is increasing. Groups are calling for lone wolf and other attacks in the West. Truthfully, I do not personally care for guns. But I am now feeling that it is becoming necessary to have them to defend ourselves. Terrorists and criminals will always be able to access guns. ...

(not disagreeing with anything you said

Terrorists and criminals already have guns. Terrorism didn't start yesterday. It's been planned for months or even years. If the muslim invasion is coming with rapists and AK-whatevers, I think trying to implement gun control on the law-abiding portion of the populace now is not only foolhardy, it's like locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen.

 

[AGBF]

Reason? You mean like thinking that if we don't manufacture guns, that people can't/won't buy them from elsewhere? Yeah, sounds reasonable to me

I've contributed more than I probably should have, so I'm going to move on to other discussions.

If you are not here, you are not here. That does not mean that when you say something to me that I should not answer it. Other people still read this forum.

If you had read what I wrote above-not that you are obliged to read what I write-you would have seen that I actually did theorize about how the United States could stop the production of arms by other countries if we stopped producing arms. And since you had written that you were open to suggestions about how to stop the problem, I thought that you might have read my reply.

My theory was that when we ceased to produce arms ourselves, that we engage in talks with other industrialized nations and make treaties with them (you know, the way we do about global warming or nuclear disarmament) to agree that we all cease the production of guns. That would leave the world with no high quality guns. Yes, guns could be produced. But, as I said, the quality of the guns available would become far lower.

An AK47 is apparently all the rage. What if all anyone could get was, as I said, an assault rifle assembled in where no one had ever written or read? Where parts were not made to specification? Where no one had heard of a tool and die maker? Or the metric system?
International treaties can do wonders. The only fly in the ointment would be how to get these countries to be able to produce armaments for their wars. We can't expect them to give those up. Maybe we will have to agree that only heavy artillery will be used in war from now on.