NPR: World chess just placed restrictions on both trans women and trans men

[kenny]

Chess is 99.9% mental and 0.01% physical, when fingers move a little chess piece a few inches on a board.

SNIP:

Rugby, swimming, track and field — transgender women have been banned from international women's events in a growing number of sports. The latest to make that list is chess.

The International Chess Federation, known as FIDE, will effectively stop allowing transgender women from participating in women's competitions until "further analysis" can be made — which could take up to two years.

The organization will also remove some titles won by players who won in women's categories and later transitioned to male. It will also remove some titles won by transgender men. The new policies are slated to go into effect on Monday.

"FIDE recognizes that this is an evolving issue for chess and that besides technical regulations on transgender regulations further policy may need to be evolved in the future in line with research evidence," the federation wrote in a statement.

Over the past few days, several chess federations have come out against the new changes, including in the U.S. and Germany.

"If a person is legally recognised as a woman, it is incomprehensible to us what FIDE still wants to check and why it needs two years for this," the German Chess Federation wrote Friday in a statement.

The new regulations around transgender players​

Under new guidelines, transgender people will still be allowed to compete in the "open" section of tournaments, where men and women typically compete against one another.

But many elite events that are exclusively for women will be off limits for people who changed their gender from male to female until "further analysis" is made by the FIDE — which the group described could take up two years.

FIDE also ruled that it has the right to make "an appropriate mark" of a gender change in a player's profile, as well as inform tournaments of any transgender competitors.

Transgender men who won in women's events before transitioning will have their titles abolished. The titles could be renewed if a player detransitions and can "prove the ownership of the respective FIDE ID that holds the title," the federation said. Abolished titles may also be transferred into a "general title of the same or lower level."

Meanwhile, transgender women can keep any titles they earned before they transitioned.

FIDE's reasoning behind the changes​

FIDE said it needed to make regulations on transgender players after receiving an influx of requests for gender changes. It ultimately ruled that "change of gender is a change that has a significant impact on a player's status."

That argument has been common among international governing bodies that oversee sports with intense physical activity — which chess does not.

The National Center for Transgender Equality said the new guidelines were "insulting" to all women and the game itself.

"It assumes that cis women couldn't be competitive against cis men - and relies on ignorant anti-trans ideas," the center wrote on X, the site formerly known as Twitter.

Similarly, chess stars across the world have spoken out against FIDE's new policies, saying they will bring unnecessary harm to transgender competitors.

"The new regulations will make trans chess players all over the world face a horrible dilemma: transition or quit chess," professional chess player Yosha Iglesias wrote on X.

Source: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/18/1194593562/chess-transgender-fide-pushback

 

[kenny]

Opening snip from Wikipedia page on, "Sex differences in intelligence".

Sex differences in human intelligence have long been a topic of debate among researchers and scholars. It is now recognized that there are no significant sex differences in general intelligence,[1][2] though particular subtypes of intelligence vary somewhat between sexes.[3][4]

While some test batteries show slightly greater intelligence in males, others show slightly greater intelligence in females.[3][4] In particular, studies have shown female subjects performing better on tasks related to verbal ability,[1] and males performing better on tasks related to rotation of objects in space, often categorized as spatial ability.[5]

Some research indicates that male advantages on some cognitive tests are minimized when controlling for socioeconomic factors.[4] It has also been hypothesized that there is slightly higher variability in male scores in certain areas compared to female scores, leading to males' being over-represented at the top and bottom extremes of the distribution, though the evidence for this hypothesis is inconclusive.[6]

IQ research​

See also: Intelligence quotient

Background​

There is no statistically significant difference between the average IQ scores of men and women.[7][8][2] Average differences have been reported, however, on some tests of mathematics and verbal ability in certain contexts.[4][9][5] Some studies have suggested that there may be more variability in cognitive ability among males than among females,[9] but others have contradicted this,[10] or presented evidence that differential variability is culturally rather than biologically determined.[11] According to psychologist Diane Halpern, "there are both differences and similarities in the cognitive abilities of women and men, but there is no data-based rationale to support the idea that either is the smarter or superior sex."[2]

 

[Karl_K]

They should just drop the Women's and Girl's groups entirely.
They are sexist.
In junior and open its not an issue as genders compete against each other.
There is no men's only category.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

if Equestion sports can be unisex why cant chess ?

 

[missy]

Glad they are working hard on important matters
Like @Karl_K wrote it should be unisex
I mean we aren't talking football here.
I see no reason there should be separate categories for men and women in chess

 

[kenny]

I agree.

 

[RMOO]

So, from my bias as a woman, and the fact that chess is historically dominated by men, how I read this is that in their effort to be "equitable" what they are really saying is that genetic men are intellectually superior and so women have to be "protected" from the transgender woman because she would have an unfair advantage.

Yeah, just a little sexist.

 

[LightBright]

Hormones have a profound impact on the brain. Anyone with both a girl and a boy child will notice that boys and girls think differently. Anyone who has been through menopause knows you are NEVER the same when you lose your progesterone and estrogen.

With regard to chess: things like focus, extrapolation, spatial mastery, drive, relentlessness, outside the box thinking etc. spring from hormones. If you take testosterone these things will be enhanced. If you allow a person to compete who has both more (natural) levels of testosterone as well as supplemented estrogen and progesterone, then that person is artificially advantaged. Trans women are also not subject to hormonal randomness as XX women are.

The Idea that XX and XY bodies can be transformed into the opposite gender via a bottle of pills is false and puts a human on the path of a lifetime of dependency and risk. Male and females are different according to their chromosomes which can never be medically removed.

Legally, in policies, however, we have been allowing people to get away with attempting to create what can never be natural. If anything, hormonally supported Trans people of both genders are -adding- capabilities to a naturally derived foundation, so they should compete in that category of people who are taking exogenous hormones of any kind.

 

[Lookinagain]

With regard to chess: things like focus, extrapolation, spatial mastery, drive, relentlessness, outside the box thinking etc. spring from hormones. If you take testosterone these things will be enhanced

Well as someone who has managed both men and women in the same positions for over 25 years I've never found that men have enhanced things like focus, drive, relentlessness, thinking outside the box, etc. Some men have it, some don't. Some women have it, some don't. Neither gender seems to have a higher preponderance than the other. In my opinion it's the individual, regardless of gender.

 

[RMOO]

Hormones have a profound impact on the brain. Anyone with both a girl and a boy child will notice that boys and girls think differently. Anyone who has been through menopause knows you are NEVER the same when you lose your progesterone and estrogen.

With regard to chess: things like focus, extrapolation, spatial mastery, drive, relentlessness, outside the box thinking etc. spring from hormones. If you take testosterone these things will be enhanced. If you allow a person to compete who has both more (natural) levels of testosterone as well as supplemented estrogen and progesterone, then that person is artificially advantaged. Trans women are also not subject to hormonal randomness as XX women are.

The Idea that XX and XY bodies can be transformed into the opposite gender via a bottle of pills is false and puts a human on the path of a lifetime of dependency and risk. Male and females are different according to their chromosomes which can never be medically removed.

Legally, in policies, however, we have been allowing people to get away with attempting to create what can never be natural. If anything, hormonally supported Trans people of both genders are -adding- capabilities to a naturally derived foundation, so they should compete in that category of people who are taking exogenous hormones of any kind.

I'm not being argumentative with the following, seriously asking: So, then post menopausal genetically female women who take hormone replacement therapy should also be separated? And how about separating men by age groups of 10 years as their testosterone fades. My father takes estrogen to combat his prostate cancer, should he and others like him be segregated? Should there just be a mandatory hormone level blood test required and participants segregated by results?

I pay no never mind to chess competitions, but has there been a champion, ever, who is transgender? Are transgender men and women now dominating the field? Or is the FIDE just jumping on the culture war bandwagon?

 

[smitcompton]

Hi.

How very interesting. I read missy's post and I agreed with it. Then I read Lightbright's post, and I agreed with it. They are opposite each other. Or perhaps they are both right. Chess takes mind skills. Open competition seems right.

I think personally I am in LightBrights camp. Hormones do make a difference in our behaviors, and i think there will be a third category made in sports, and perhaps other places.

I am troubled by this sex change trend. This is not a decision for children to make. The possibilities for evil are in plain sight.

Annette

 

[LightBright]

I'm not being argumentative with the following, seriously asking: So, then post menopausal genetically female women who take hormone replacement therapy should also be separated? And how about separating men by age groups of 10 years as their testosterone fades. My father takes estrogen to combat his prostate cancer, should he and others like him be segregated? Should there just be a mandatory hormone level blood test required and participants segregated by results?

I pay no never mind to chess competitions, but has there been a champion, ever, who is transgender? Are transgender men and women now dominating the field? Or is the FIDE just jumping on the culture war bandwagon?

Hi, I’m not trying to be argumentative either. My opinion is that separating XX and XY people in competitions is the fairest way to handle innate differences. Within those categories, neither group should be able to take sex hormones.

I do think that XX people who take supplemental HRT (estrogen and progesterone) have an advantage at any age. When I lost my natural hormones due to menopause for example, my spatial perception went down, I became much less motivated to complete things, I lost my desire to explore and travel, I became unmotivated to socialize. These aren’t necessarily related to chess, but they represented a deeply felt loss of a capability set. Pretty much I lost part of what made me, me. So I’m assuming that’s the case with others and vice versa if you take exogenous hormones.

In brain related competitions like chess, I think any use of exogenous sex hormones should lead to competing only with people who do the same (enhancing their own skill sets artificially). Not with people who aren’t.

 

[LightBright]

Well as someone who has managed both men and women in the same positions for over 25 years I've never found that men have enhanced things like focus, drive, relentlessness, thinking outside the box, etc. Some men have it, some don't. Some women have it, some don't. Neither gender seems to have a higher preponderance than the other. In my opinion it's the individual, regardless of gender.

I totally agree! Every individual is unique.

 

[telephone89]

This is the stupidest thing I've read. Sounds like they are trying to "make a statement". Are there donors for this sort of thing? Who are they trying to appease with this garbage?

 

[Lookinagain]

I do think that XX people who take supplemental HRT (estrogen and progesterone) have an advantage at any age. When I lost my natural hormones due to menopause for example, my spatial perception went down, I became much less motivated to complete things, I lost my desire to explore and travel, I became unmotivated to socialize. These aren’t necessarily related to chess, but they represented a deeply felt loss of a capability set. Pretty much I lost part of what made me, me. So I’m assuming that’s the case with others and vice versa if you take exogenous hormones.

I think your assumption is not universal. I didn’t take HRT and I went through menopause many years ago so was fairly young. I didn’t experience any of the things you mentioned which all seem to relate to motivation (except for the spatial perception). I honestly don’t think I changed much at all except that now in my 60’s I’m more tolerant. Since hormones, or lack there of, have affected you so much maybe you are assuming they affect all of these things in others? I’m not sure that is the case. I guess it could be but that hasn’t been my personal experience.

 

[LightBright]

I think your assumption is not universal. I didn’t take HRT and I went through menopause many years ago so was fairly young. I didn’t experience any of the things you mentioned which all seem to relate to motivation (except for the spatial perception). I honestly don’t think I changed much at all except that now in my 60’s I’m more tolerant. Since hormones, or lack there of, have affected you so much maybe you are assuming they affect all of these things in others? I’m not sure that is the case. I guess it could be but that hasn’t been my personal experience.

Absolutely. I might be assuming that hormones enhance brain function. I assume that adding hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone “augment“ capabilities.

In menopause no longer “depressed” periodically. And I’m far less sensitive to what others think, plus I feel wiser, I’m more confidant and satisfied.

 

[LightBright]

This is the stupidest thing I've read. Sounds like they are trying to "make a statement". Are there donors for this sort of thing? Who are they trying to appease with this garbage?

My concern is: adults who aren’t Trans inventing and proselytizing a new Trans ideology which for the first time in history teaches, in the school setting, young kids that the path to body acceptance “if your identity doesn’t jive with your body” is risky permanent drugs and surgeries.

Then all kids and their parents are forced to accept the new rules (because it’s endlessly taught and required to be taught in schools) of who is a woman and who is a man, in whatever sphere they occupy (sports, jobs). This disadvantages GIRLS and violates Girl Spaces.

So we can be nice by supporting forcible and pervasive Trans ideology or we can say hey, maybe Trans is a new category that isn't necessarily equivalent, and that human beings might be reasonably skeptical of that equivalency.

 

[RMOO]

Well this just took a weird turn I’m out.

 

[LilAlex]

I read a bunch of the posts and nodded along to the first three paragraphs and then the final paragraph stopped me from hitting "like."

I think this is one of the better and more nuanced discussions on PS on anything because opinions are just being formed.

I want to be accepting and I know that there is genuine gender dysphoria and that some folks truly are helped by hormones and surgery. I also suspect and fear that there is some me-too-ism hidden in there and I would not want the uninformed or overly impressionable to make an irreversible decision prematurely. Look at the explosion of TikTok Tourette's that popped up during the pandemic and then evaporated just as quickly. (There may also be some social contagion in eating disorders and, tragically, suicidality.)

I do not think that teaching tolerance around gender dysphoria "makes" anyone trans or trans-prone -- but, like with admitting that one is gay or bi, it may permit some folks to come to terms with their biology a little easier and a little earlier. I think it's like teaching tolerance around race and religion -- very different from a sales pitch, as these things are often mis-cast.

EDIT: Spouse suspects that some persistent environmental toxins that are also well-documented endocrine disrupters (even at exceedingly low concentration) may be contributing and I think that's a distinct possibility.

It seems important to first know where the top women would rank in chess vs. the top men. If it's like tennis and the top 100 (or maybe 1,000 or perhaps way more) men would crush any of the women players, then there is a discussion to be had around what constitutes fair competition for men and women. But if it really is a level playing field, then it's like the Oscars -- why is there a need for Best Actor and Best Actress?

 

[TooPatient]

It seems important to first know where the top women would rank in chess vs. the top men. If it's like tennis and the top 100 (or maybe 1,000 or perhaps way more) men would crush any of the women players, then there is a discussion to be had around what constitutes fair competition for men and women. But if it really is a level playing field, then it's like the Oscars -- why is there a need for Best Actor and Best Actress?

I was wondering this as well. I hope they look at those numbers and make the information available as they look into and make decisions. If people are swapping back and forth to have a better chance at winning against a different set of competitors or if it means biological men or biological women are at a severe disadvantage as you mention, then that is a serious issue to be weighed and options sought. If not, then as many others have said, it is a mental not physical game so may not be an area where such divisions are necessary.

 

[Jambalaya]

I know nothing about the world of competitive chess and am staggered to learn that it's unisex. What possible justification can there be for that? It's the least physical form of competition I can think of!!

 

[Lookinagain]

I know nothing about the world of competitive chess and am staggered to learn that it's unisex. What possible justification can there be for that? It's the least physical form of competition I can think of!!

I was wondering about those professional poker players. I see men and women at the same table when I click by those channels on TV. Aren't those similar brain cells being used?

 

[LilAlex]

I was wondering about those professional poker players...Aren't those similar brain cells being used?

All three of them!

 

[LightBright]

Per LilAlex’ comment, to anyone interested in what group is most impacted by “suggestion” and social pressure of Trans, it’s those on the Spectrum. See book by Abigail Shrier. Definite correlation across many studies.

I’ve done some searching/reading on chess capability and gender, and it concludes that both males and females have the intellectual capacity to compete against each other at the same levels, in the same tournaments etc. Many women in the profession think Tournaments and opportunities should be open, not segregated. The explanation for why females have traditionally been separate has to do with things other than their ability to compete with men at chess. This suggests to me that all categories can and maybe should be blended.

Explanation from Reddit “My understanding is that since women were historically (and still) underrepresented in chess, women's leagues and events were brought in to promote more female representation in the game. It could entice more women to practice the game at a competitive level and have more opportunities to make it financially sustainable for them by winning more tournament prizes. There's also the fact that a lot of male players have been pretty openly misogynistic and dismissive of woman players (eg. Fischer), so giving them a chance to compete without being subjected to that can be done with women's leagues. Also worth note is than there is no men's league, only the women's and the open categories.”

 

[kenny]

Doesn't testosterone increase competitiveness?

Or, is that limited to competition for a mate?

 

[Lookinagain]

Doesn't testosterone increase competitiveness?

Or, is that limited to competition for a mate?

Haven't you ever seen a bunch of women vying for the same desirable male? They seem pretty competitive to me.

 

[Un_Petit_Rayon_de_Soleil]

if Equestion sports can be unisex why cant chess ?

Yes! Girls compete against males in every discipline of equestrian sports.

Edited to add:

I did not read all of the responses. I probably will not. Just saw this response to the original post. My daughter competes against men all the time and she has always been equally competitive.

 

[telephone89]

My concern is: adults who aren’t Trans inventing and proselytizing a new Trans ideology which for the first time in history teaches, in the school setting, young kids that the path to body acceptance “if your identity doesn’t jive with your body” is risky permanent drugs and surgeries.

Then all kids and their parents are forced to accept the new rules (because it’s endlessly taught and required to be taught in schools) of who is a woman and who is a man, in whatever sphere they occupy (sports, jobs). This disadvantages GIRLS and violates Girl Spaces.

So we can be nice by supporting forcible and pervasive Trans ideology or we can say hey, maybe Trans is a new category that isn't necessarily equivalent, and that human beings might be reasonably skeptical of that equivalency.

Or we could just not be anti-trans bigots…

 

[missy]

Wow, this thread has taken an ugly turn IMO.

Who is Smarter - Men or Women?

Who is smarter - men or women? We've been through thousands of psychometric test results to reveal which is the smartest gender.

www.practiceaptitudetests.com

It is all about perception and not reality

Who's smarter in the classroom -- men or women? New study shows it's all about perception

A first-of-its-kind study shows that in the college biology classroom, men perceive themselves as smarter, even when compared to women whose grades demonstrate they are just as accomplished. The study shows that gender greatly impacts students' perceptions of their own intelligence, particularly...

www.sciencedaily.com

"The researchers were surprised to find that women were far more likely to underestimate their own intelligence than men."

The gender stereotypes are slow to die as are all other stereotypes.

"A 2014 meta-analysis of sex differences in scholastic achievement published in the journal of Psychological Bulletin found females outperformed males in teacher-assigned school marks throughout elementary, junior/middle, high school and at both undergraduate and graduate"

Men Think They’re Brighter Than They Are and Women Underestimate Their IQ. Why? - Neuroscience News

Despite there being no differences in IQ or general intelligence between males and females, men often overestimate their IQ's, considering them to be higher than females. Researchers explore why this matters in an educational context and evaluate why females often underestimate their...

neurosciencenews.com

"

There are no gender differences in actual IQ​

"

"There was also a strong contribution of general self-esteem to participants’ intellectual self-image. As noted above, males report higher self-esteem than females."

It is all about perception and the stronger self image many boys/men have compared to men/women. Isn't it time we stop contributing to the problem? Raise strong boys and girls who believe in themselves and their abilities. If you don't believe men and women are equally intelligent you are a BIG part of the problem.



And in other VERY disturbing news

Or we could just not be anti-trans bigots…

Yes, exactly. I expect this from ignorant bigoted individuals. Not from the PSers I adore

 

[LilAlex]

There certainly are anti-trans bigots out there. I am not in a hurry to label any and all questioning of the medically appropriate course of action in response to an individual's expressed gender dysphoria as trans-phobia. There is a lot of unsettled science out there and there are a lot of impressionable consumers of the media.

We do not let nine-year-olds decide, for example, who they have sex with or even which parent will be custodial in a divorce (or at least, for the latter, not without the participation of a wise and impartial adult). There are critical decisions that we delay. This is certainly the case now with babies who are born anatomically intersex -- I think there is a newer effort to wait-and-see a bit rather than "fix" it immediately.

How do you explain to a gender-dysphoric prepubescent kid that they are on the cusp of replacing their fully functional penis or clitoris -- which they will really enjoy some day -- with a non- or marginally-functional anatomic facsimile?

My point is simply that there are real issues and real unanswered questions here so I don't think it is helpful to (necessarily) tar every asker with the "bigot" brush. At the same time, I don't want to provide cover for those who dismiss every effort to increase inclusion and tolerance as "woke garbage."

And there are thousands if not tens of thousands of research studies and "research studies" looking at ability differences between men and women so we could trade crummy data all day long and not "prove" anything, The problem with these studies is that there may be no level playing field. We all weigh on the same scale and stand by the same tape measure -- but the instruments that measure cognitive ability are imperfect tools that are influenced by our educational background and biases. I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has come up with an "intelligence test" that permits Black Americans (on average) to perform at the level of White Americans (on average). Does that mean that every test is biased? Potentially. Does that mean that there is a genuine, though small, biological difference? Potentially. But, in terms of being actionable -- and apart from abhorrent misplaced racial pride -- there is no significance whatsoever to a tiny difference in the mean, which tells us nothing about the ability of individuals within these enormous and broad bell-shaped curves. (If Whites were on average, say, one mm taller than Blacks, you could not use that information to flesh out your basketball team on the basis of race -- it would be swamped by inter-individual differences in anthropometry and performance.)

Also, cognition has so many facets that maybe the concept of "intelligence" is useless -- like rating humans on their "bigness" as judged by eye and not using height or weight or BMI or adiposity or normalizing for their ancestral population, etc.

Having raised both, and not coming into that exercise with any preconceptions about the abilities of boys vs. girls, and being fairly convinced that I could and would raise daughters that were the equal of any boy in mechanical/technical aptitude and interest, I was almost immediately struck by how different our boys and girls were from the outset -- even before they were media-impacted and really even before they had a sentient friend group. DDs loved fashion (before they even knew what fashion was) and DSs loved trucks and anything loud and dirty and mechanized. I was astounded. As young adults, their interests now align much more closely -- but that seems to be the learned part and not the innate part in my limited experience.