NPR: World chess just placed restrictions on both trans women and trans men

[Calliecake]

It’s so good to see you back here in Hangout @MakingTheGrade and @OboeGal. I’ve learned so much from your posts over the years and value your opinions.

 

[telephone89]

The numbers have been higher in more accepting societies, such as some indigenous cultures, than in western society, likely due to harsh penalties, much of it religious-based, against those who didn't follow strict gender norms leading these folks to hide their true selves at tremendous personal emotional and psychological cost, but as many are striving toward a more accepting, honest society in the west these days without some peoples' religious beliefs dictating the lives of all, people, including kids, are feeling freer to be more open about it.

Yes! Isn't it funny to see old pictures of two women holding hands, kissing or growing old living together, and everyone just said "oh theyre best friends forever! How cute!" LOL.

Love this paragraph, and the rest of your post.

 

[smitcompton]

Thank you, @missy - and may I say that it's delightful to be "talking" with you once again. I've missed a lot of folks here, you among them.

@MakingTheGrade, I'm deeply grateful that you've weighed in here with your experience, knowledge, and expertise - thank you.

@telephone89, I'm really glad you brought up human sexuality and gender as spectrums rather than discrete bins - that agrees with what I've seen in the medical, psychological, and sociological literature since I started looking at it in the 1980s. When people are surveyed in confidential settings where they can be convinced that their answers are secret and anonymous and that there will be no social consequences, far more people identify as bisexual and/or gender-fluid than one would expect. I had sociology texts that clearly stated that the research indicates that the majority of humans are in fact to some degree bisexual, and that those who are extremely exclusively at the opposite ends of either heterosexual or homosexual are the outliers. It's social conditioning that "pushes" so many to one or the other end, usually the heterosexual end. The same appears to be the case around gender identity. We have anthropological data that indicates that gender identity outside the male/female binary has existed since the beginning of human existence, and in many indigenous societies has been common and embraced - even revered.

It's nice to see you, too @smitcompton. I don't know that I'm all that smart, but I've got a decent science background, especially around the confluence of medicine and behavior, and I have people who are very near and dear to me who are trans, so I've spent decades with an intimate view of what their lives involve and studying gender dysphoria so that I can be of as much support to them as I can. I hope I don't come across to you personally as angry, as that's not my intent. I believe I've come to know you enough over the years here to say with confidence that your heart is warm and kind, and that your personal views are coming from a place of legitimate concern around the well-being of kids based on seeing a lot of change happening quickly plus there being a plethora of misinformation out there around all of it. I hope that the information that @MakingTheGrade and I are sharing can be of reassurance to you.

@smitcompton, you've mentioned surgery a couple times, so I wanted to let you know that, even prior to state legislatures banning gender-affirming surgery for minors, surgery for minors was incredibly, vanishingly rare, to the point of almost never done, and in the few instances it was done, was in kids very nearly 18 who had long histories of gender dysphoria and were at very high risk of suicide without the surgery. It's just not considered standard-of-care for minors except in the most absolute extreme of circumstances. The overwhelming majority of gender-affirming care for minors actually is social transitioning (name, pronouns, dress, etc.) and counseling, and this will over time "weed out" those kids who are "trying on" trans identity but aren't actually trans. If medical care is used, it's usually puberty blockers initially, and only once they reach the age where puberty is an issue, and if hormones are used, it's later, well into their teens. While it's possible for puberty blockers to have effects on bone density and fertility, they usually don't and instead are fully reversible if stopped, which allows the puberty process to take place, just delayed. (They're routinely used also for kids who experience precocious puberty.) For kids and parents who are uncertain, they can buy them time before more final decisions are made and they either continue forward in transition or stop the blockers and experience the same puberty process that they would have, and for those who are certain and have a long history of successful social transition, they set them up for much less distress in the short-term and a much more successful transition in adulthood, including surgery if chosen, as I explained in my prior post. Hormones, if used, come later in the teens, typically in those who also have a long history of doing well with social transition and puberty blockers, and their effects are also mostly reversible if stopped in anyone who hasn't yet had gender-affirming surgery.

@smitcompton, you also mentioned there only being two sexes, and as @MakingTheGrade mentioned, that's not actually the case - it's more complex than that. In addition to that reality, we have studies that explain many, if not most, cases of gender dysphoria that indicate that one really can have the characteristics of both genders, to varying degrees, in the same body. Autopsy studies that were around in the 1990s indicated that there are structures and "wiring" in the brain that tend to vary between men who identify as men and women who identify as women. For many trans MtoF people, they were found on autopsy to have brain structure and wiring that more closely resembled that in women who identify as women, and for many trans FtoM people, their brains more closely resembled men who identified as men. In other words - despite being born with chromosomes and genital structures that pointed to one gender, their brains went the other way. Imaging studies done since then have had the same results. Of course, it's likely that some folks have brain structure that falls somewhere between the two, since body structures vary a bit for each individual, and that may explain some people who identify as non-binary. It's believed that something can go differently in fetal development where brain development doesn't "match" chromosomes and genital structure, perhaps due to maternal hormone levels and exposure to environmental chemicals and endocrine disruptors - more research is needed. It IS clear that some number of people have been born this way since humans have existed, though. The numbers have been higher in more accepting societies, such as some indigenous cultures, than in western society, likely due to harsh penalties, much of it religious-based, against those who didn't follow strict gender norms leading these folks to hide their true selves at tremendous personal emotional and psychological cost, but as many are striving toward a more accepting, honest society in the west these days without some peoples' religious beliefs dictating the lives of all, people, including kids, are feeling freer to be more open about it.

Hi Obie,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to explain the issue so clearly to me. I decided to come back to the thread and re=read your first post, which I did. I surely agree that parents ought to be involved in the care of their young children.

Your post to me specifically was just so enlightening. I don't believe anyone here could have explained it better.. I really feel better, now that I understand it better. One more issue I don't have to worry about

However, while you have clarified the medical issues et al, what remains are the political issues, for as I looked for answers myself I also began to see that the spotlight on this issue has come to the fore through the schools. The schools systems are State regulated, so we can have different trans policies in different states. California has said parents do not have to be notified if their children show a desire to change their identity vs Virginia who notifies parents and allows trans children to only play sports with their biological sex. Virginia has a Rep Gov. and he changed the policies from his Dem
predecessor who had more expansive policies. Each State must comply with Federal and of course State Law on anti-discrimination laws. The State treats everyone equally. (they say) Perhaps everyone already knows this, just as they all seemed to understand the medical and social process involved in trans children before your help Obie.

Obie, I wish you would write an editorial / opinion piece to put on the Atlantic, The New Yorker, the Times or another media outlet so that others would be able to understand the whole issue. You have done me a service, perhaps others can benefit as well. I am so glad I went back to re-read you post and found more pearls of wisdom. I have always valued what you say. I don't mind if you set me straight. I too know from where it comes.

Annette