NPR: World chess just placed restrictions on both trans women and trans men

[Betty Baguette]

From an evolutionary standpoint I think males MIGHT have a slight advantage in chess. Since the beginning of humanity men have been hunting antelope on the savannah and strategically fighting their enemies on the battlefield. Both of these activities require thinking several steps ahead of their opponents, just like in chess.

 

[Karl_K]

Back in the stone age, when I was in high school.
The best local youth player was a girl who had been playing since she was very young.
I'm not about to find links but studies have found that predicting who will reach high levels, a huge factor is how young they start.
Their brains are programed for it as they grow and it works with people with the right brain aptitudes regardless of plumbing.

 

[LightBright]

Or we could just not be anti-trans bigots…

It’s complicated.

‘An explosion’: what is behind the rise in girls questioning their gender identity?

As the NHS reviews gender referrals, parents, clinicians and young people reveal the social, medical and emotional challenges they face

www.theguardian.com

 

[LilAlex]

From an evolutionary standpoint I think males MIGHT have a slight advantage in chess.

But shouldn't such selection pressure -- and I suspect that what you say is real -- benefit both sexes? I don't know enough about the genetics of sexually dimorphic traits (think: peacock plumage, too) -- but I know that there ain't too much else beyond sex determination encoded on that vestigial nubbin we call the Y chromosome so most of the genetic selection for hunting prowess (just like for everything else) must get passed along on the autosomes that all offspring inherit irrespective of sex. Maybe those advantages are selected for universally but only manifest under the influence of sex hormones...?

And, of course, there is a broad range in the circulating levels of sex hormones within the male population of a given age and within the female population of a given age (meaning they are "continuously variable" traits like height or weight). So even there, I could imagine the upper tail end of one gender's distribution overlapping with the lower tail end of the other's.

There are also women who make tons of testosterone but have a (genetically) broken testosterone receptor and hence are "immune" to its effects, biologically (so-called "testicular feminization"). These genetic men are anatomically female in every way. There is always internet speculation around which beautiful celebrities are affected, etc.

 

[OboeGal]

There is a lot of ignorance around gender dysphoria in this thread, and it's frankly really, really disappointing.

I see hand-wringing around "children are too young to decide this!" repeated over and over, including in this thread, yet......children aren't making these decisions. Their parents are, under the advisement of an entire team of professionals with a great deal of expertise in the subject, like every other medical and non-medical decision in their young lives ranging from the trivial to the earth-shattering. Children communicate to their parents and/or other trusted adults what they're experiencing; their parents take them to experts for evaluation and guidance, and make decisions from there, which occurs in every household over all manner of things on a regular basis.

Ask yourself - why do we trust parents to make literally every other decision that affects the outcome of the rest of their children's lives, yet not here? We all know how many children are obese, for example, and allowed to exist on junk food - something we know for fact is always bad for kids and for which there is no upside - yet the government, or the public through the government, doesn't try to outlaw that or interfere in parental authority on the matter. But, oh boy - the minute it becomes about gender, it's a different ballgame. Never mind that we have the stats that show that the number of those who regret transitioning is truly minute, and among those who do regret transitioning, for many the main reason isn't that they weren't happy with the result internally - it was because transitioning made them visible and therefore subject to the discrimination, hate, judgement, harassment, and violence that comes in society with being "out" as trans, and for that small number of people, was not worth it.

So - is it really about protecting children and doing what's in their best interests, or is it about a large segment of society not being able to cope with the idea of violating gender norms?

For children who really are experiencing gender dysphoria, treatment with puberty blockers can be absolutely vital to a good outcome for literally the rest of their lives. Are there some potential risks around bone health and fertility? Yes, but the same risks are not treated as relevant in cases of precocious puberty, and can also exist around treatment for other serious medical issues, and can be weighed by parents and the medical team. For trans people, going through the "wrong" puberty is disastrous, and not just in terms of the short-term horror they experience in seeing their body change in ways that take them even further from what their brain is - it prevents them from ever being able to fully transition as adults. Changes will occur to bone structure, the voice, body hair, and the Adam's apple that can't be ameliorated or reversed by hormones or surgery and that will prevent them from ever being able to "pass" as their brain's gender. This dramatically affects their ability to feel at home in their body, find a romantic partner, avoid discrimination in various settings, and stay safe in a very hostile society. This is why discussions about gender starting at a very young age are desirable - not to "indoctrinate" or "force ideology" or "turn them trans," but to have several years to separate out which kids really do have gender dysphoria versus ones who are just "trying on" being trans but aren't really or identify more as non-binary. By the time they're old enough for puberty blockers to be a consideration, the kids who are really trans will have several years of successful and happy social transition under their belts pointing to likely success with puberty blockers, which seriously reduces the risk of unnecessary treatment.

 

[OboeGal]

Absolutely. I might be assuming that hormones enhance brain function. I assume that adding hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone “augment“ capabilities.

In menopause no longer “depressed” periodically. And I’m far less sensitive to what others think, plus I feel wiser, I’m more confidant and satisfied.

Your assumptions are incorrect. Adding sex hormones does not "augment capabilities" in post-menopausal women.

Hormone balance for optimal functioning is extremely complex even when under full control of the body, let alone if one is attempting to externally manage it through supplementation. Estrogen and progesterone compete for many of the same receptors, and an excess of one compared to the other will throw balance out of whack; testosterone aromatases to estrogen, and at different rates in different women based on all kinds of factors; excess estrogen suppresses thyroid hormone uptake in cells and blunts the effects of testosterone; etc., etc. On top of that, post-menopausal women vary tremendously in the state of their endogenous hormone levels, depending on how quickly ovarian output naturally declines, whether or not their ovaries have been removed or are retained but have completely failed due to disruption of blood supply from removal of the tubes or uterus or due to medical treatments like chemotherapy, how much abdominal fat they have, the ability of their adrenal glands to make up hormonal shortfalls, how much environmental xenoestrogens they are exposed to from their diets and environment, etc., etc.

The idea that adding some hormones automatically equates to a woman being "augmented" is incredibly simplistic. At absolute best, she would be returned to a level of functioning similar to how she did while she was still cycling, and that is incredibly rare. Many, if not most, who supplement hormones constantly struggle to manage the complexity of balance with far less than optimal results, and are lucky to find a regimen that eases enough of the discomfort and disruption of menopause that they can at least cope with their "new normal," but not ever function like they once did.

 

[missy]

There is a lot of ignorance around gender dysphoria in this thread, and it's frankly really, really disappointing.

I see hand-wringing around "children are too young to decide this!" repeated over and over, including in this thread, yet......children aren't making these decisions. Their parents are, under the advisement of an entire team of professionals with a great deal of expertise in the subject, like every other medical and non-medical decision in their young lives ranging from the trivial to the earth-shattering. Children communicate to their parents and/or other trusted adults what they're experiencing; their parents take them to experts for evaluation and guidance, and make decisions from there, which occurs in every household over all manner of things on a regular basis.

Ask yourself - why do we trust parents to make literally every other decision that affects the outcome of the rest of their children's lives, yet not here? We all know how many children are obese, for example, and allowed to exist on junk food - something we know for fact is always bad for kids and for which there is no upside - yet the government, or the public through the government, doesn't try to outlaw that or interfere in parental authority on the matter. But, oh boy - the minute it becomes about gender, it's a different ballgame. Never mind that we have the stats that show that the number of those who regret transitioning is truly minute, and among those who do regret transitioning, for many the main reason isn't that they weren't happy with the result internally - it was because transitioning made them visible and therefore subject to the discrimination, hate, judgement, harassment, and violence that comes in society with being "out" as trans, and for that small number of people, was not worth it.

So - is it really about protecting children and doing what's in their best interests, or is it about a large segment of society not being able to cope with the idea of violating gender norms?

For children who really are experiencing gender dysphoria, treatment with puberty blockers can be absolutely vital to a good outcome for literally the rest of their lives. Are there some potential risks around bone health and fertility? Yes, but the same risks are not treated as relevant in cases of precocious puberty, and can also exist around treatment for other serious medical issues, and can be weighed by parents and the medical team. For trans people, going through the "wrong" puberty is disastrous, and not just in terms of the short-term horror they experience in seeing their body change in ways that take them even further from what their brain is - it prevents them from ever being able to fully transition as adults. Changes will occur to bone structure, the voice, body hair, and the Adam's apple that can't be ameliorated or reversed by hormones or surgery and that will prevent them from ever being able to "pass" as their brain's gender. This dramatically affects their ability to feel at home in their body, find a romantic partner, avoid discrimination in various settings, and stay safe in a very hostile society. This is why discussions about gender starting at a very young age are desirable - not to "indoctrinate" or "force ideology" or "turn them trans," but to have several years to separate out which kids really do have gender dysphoria versus ones who are just "trying on" being trans but aren't really or identify more as non-binary. By the time they're old enough for puberty blockers to be a consideration, the kids who are really trans will have several years of successful and happy social transition under their belts pointing to likely success with puberty blockers, which seriously reduces the risk of unnecessary treatment.

I cannot like your post(s) enough. Thank you for coming here to inject sanity and common sense and intelligent reasoning to this thread Oboe gal.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

There is a lot of ignorance around gender dysphoria in this thread, and it's frankly really, really disappointing.

I see hand-wringing around "children are too young to decide this!" repeated over and over, including in this thread, yet......children aren't making these decisions. Their parents are, under the advisement of an entire team of professionals with a great deal of expertise in the subject, like every other medical and non-medical decision in their young lives ranging from the trivial to the earth-shattering. Children communicate to their parents and/or other trusted adults what they're experiencing; their parents take them to experts for evaluation and guidance, and make decisions from there, which occurs in every household over all manner of things on a regular basis.

Ask yourself - why do we trust parents to make literally every other decision that affects the outcome of the rest of their children's lives, yet not here? We all know how many children are obese, for example, and allowed to exist on junk food - something we know for fact is always bad for kids and for which there is no upside - yet the government, or the public through the government, doesn't try to outlaw that or interfere in parental authority on the matter. But, oh boy - the minute it becomes about gender, it's a different ballgame. Never mind that we have the stats that show that the number of those who regret transitioning is truly minute, and among those who do regret transitioning, for many the main reason isn't that they weren't happy with the result internally - it was because transitioning made them visible and therefore subject to the discrimination, hate, judgement, harassment, and violence that comes in society with being "out" as trans, and for that small number of people, was not worth it.

So - is it really about protecting children and doing what's in their best interests, or is it about a large segment of society not being able to cope with the idea of violating gender norms?

For children who really are experiencing gender dysphoria, treatment with puberty blockers can be absolutely vital to a good outcome for literally the rest of their lives. Are there some potential risks around bone health and fertility? Yes, but the same risks are not treated as relevant in cases of precocious puberty, and can also exist around treatment for other serious medical issues, and can be weighed by parents and the medical team. For trans people, going through the "wrong" puberty is disastrous, and not just in terms of the short-term horror they experience in seeing their body change in ways that take them even further from what their brain is - it prevents them from ever being able to fully transition as adults. Changes will occur to bone structure, the voice, body hair, and the Adam's apple that can't be ameliorated or reversed by hormones or surgery and that will prevent them from ever being able to "pass" as their brain's gender. This dramatically affects their ability to feel at home in their body, find a romantic partner, avoid discrimination in various settings, and stay safe in a very hostile society. This is why discussions about gender starting at a very young age are desirable - not to "indoctrinate" or "force ideology" or "turn them trans," but to have several years to separate out which kids really do have gender dysphoria versus ones who are just "trying on" being trans but aren't really or identify more as non-binary. By the time they're old enough for puberty blockers to be a consideration, the kids who are really trans will have several years of successful and happy social transition under their belts pointing to likely success with puberty blockers, which seriously reduces the risk of unnecessary treatment.

Agreed. As a pediatric physician, the amount of misinformation here about gender, hormones, and frankly chess is boggling but I’m on my phone and don’t want to counter the points with sources. I will say: yes, hormones can affect the body and mind BUT intrasex differences are much larger than intersex differences when we are talking about physiologic amounts of hormones for most measurements of physicality and cognition. Non physiologic amounts of anabolic steroids as performance enhancement is already not allowed.

Also not only is it not the child making medical transition decisions, it’s not even the parent alone either. There’s also a highly trained physician (usually 2 actually: psych and endocrine) who has to be on board. I can say for myself and any doc I met, none of us have ever just greenlighted a parental request for any medication without a thorough exam and assessment of our own. And contrary to popular belief, not all doctors and scientists are “woke” zombies that say yes automatically. (That being said I do say yes to any request for using affirmed pronouns/names, it’s literally not hurting anymore, and there’s a lot of evidence regarding mental health in kids that should convince you that this level of support should be the default).

Know who absolutely should not have a role in this decision for a child who is not theirs? Lawyers, lawmakers, and absolute strangers. Legislation of medical care is extremely dangerous and many docs I know are deeply saddened to be moving out of states they have roots in due to ethical concerns about laws being passed. Not just obgyns and trans care providers, all docs, because the precedent is too alarming. Denying abortion access and trans care access is literally against all major medical society standards of care. Access meaning: you and your doc can discuss it and make the decision best for you.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Yes perhaps I am ignorant. but some of what has been said has not , for example told us how many children are taking these hormones for sex change purposes.? I've tried to look it up and can't find any.stats. I think it matters.
Your arguments for support of parents deciding what medical treatment their child can receive doesn't hold water. as California has just made their new policy about transitioning. There will be no notification of parents if the child is 12 years or older. This is now a school policy. The child and the school will be making the decisions?
Back in the 70's adults went to Sweden for the sex change operation. There was the usual snickering, but it was accepted. I don't care what an adult does. But it does boggle my mind to think we would do this ti our children. There really is something called contagion. Researchers ought to examine that possibility.

A new study having to do with Brown University has recently come out. Forty Percent of students now say they are LGBt, which is 5 times the national average., Is this contagion.?
We must proceed more slowly.

Nice to see you Oboe. I didn't know you were so smart.

Annette

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Your arguments for support of parents deciding what medical treatment their child can receive doesn't hold water. as California has just made their new policy about transitioning. There will be no notification of parents if the child is 12 years or older

I would like to see the source for this as I would be very surprised if a child that is 12 can be prescribed and take a medication for transitioning without parental consent. They may have rolled it up into adolescent health like birth control but even so id be surprised if they classified affirming hormones into that since the changes are visible and you’d be setting up this kid to possibly get kicked out of the home. And again, adult perspective in the form of trained physicians are involved.

If the law is about social transition that’s something different and should NOT be conflated with medications or surgical interventions. Schools should not be obligated to tell parents sensitive info if a kid isn’t ready and it’s not causing harm to the kid.

Nobody is arguing contagion isn’t real, but maybe it’s not “contagion” in a negative sense, maybe this generation is moving towards a rejection of gender roles and using the embrace of trans identities to do so. Cool, fine by me. I don’t know, I’m a physician and not a sociologist. But I do care for thousands of children and I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a factor behind the surge in youth rejecting cis gender identities to express distress with gender expectations. Personally it’s fine by me, I think it’d be great if nobody cared who wore a dress or who liked shaving their head. It IS different from those who experience significant gender dysphoria with their biology. It’s maybe unfortunate that these two cohorts share terminology.

And I will say of the thousands of kids I’ve met, hundreds of whom identify as trans (including non binary and gender queer) I can maybe think of 5-10 who are on affirming hormone meds. It’s an extremely low percentage.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

This is what I found when I tried to fact check the California law:

California bill on youth mental health services distorted on social media

A social media post is misrepresenting a California bill that aims to expand access to mental health services on an outpatient basis for youth between the ages of 12 and 17.

apnews.com

So no, California is not allowing children to start medications without parental awareness or consent. That’s misinformation.

I highly discourage people from using social media or network celebrities for keeping themselves informed of facts.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I also find it hypocritical that all these folk crying “ahhh harm to children!” about things like pronouns, are totally fine with competitive high school football which causes so much medical harm to so many kids every year. Concussions and neurological damage being the more permanent concerns, not to mention broken bodies and bones that even if they heal, still suck. And sure kids injure themselves being kids, but competitive football is a different level of risk. Why aren’t folk outraged? Because sports

 

[kenny]

This topic is hugely important and nuanced.

I'm learning a lot, and am grateful PS allows its discussion here.

This brings to mind the "normalization" of gays we've witnessed in a generation or so.
Sure it's two steps forward and one step back, but over time society improves as we soldier on to emerge from the dark ages.

 

[telephone89]

Hi,

Yes perhaps I am ignorant. but some of what has been said has not , for example told us how many children are taking these hormones for sex change purposes.? I've tried to look it up and can't find any.stats. I think it matters.
Your arguments for support of parents deciding what medical treatment their child can receive doesn't hold water. as California has just made their new policy about transitioning. There will be no notification of parents if the child is 12 years or older. This is now a school policy. The child and the school will be making the decisions?
Back in the 70's adults went to Sweden for the sex change operation. There was the usual snickering, but it was accepted. I don't care what an adult does. But it does boggle my mind to think we would do this ti our children. There really is something called contagion. Researchers ought to examine that possibility.

A new study having to do with Brown University has recently come out. Forty Percent of students now say they are LGBt, which is 5 times the national average., Is this contagion.?
We must proceed more slowly.

Nice to see you Oboe. I didn't know you were so smart.

Annette

Sexuality is not a bucket of all in or all out, it's a spectrum. Instead of pigeon-holing people into one bucket, we are realizing that you can be anywhere on the spectrum. I'd suggest that we are being more open minded and people are utilizing that to explore their sexuality and feelings more freely. Something that wasnt necessarily encouraged or allowed. In many places, even in the US, it is not OK to be gay or bi or anything but straight. Just because that's the "national average" doesnt mean its accurate. I'll also add the demographic of university students skews heavily to more liberal/open minded folks, who are more accepting of these differences.

I also looked up the study, and it's interesting, but not really the bombshell you're making it out to be. It says "38% of students identified as either homosexual, bisexual, queer, asexual, pansexual, questioning or other" and it also states that a study from 10 years ago found 14% of the students identified as such. So even 10 years ago, students here were far more likely than the national average to identify as not-straight. And including "questioning or other" also leaves a huge gap.The largest change was in students identifying as bisexual. Which I think lends itself well to my first paragraph, as many people are not putting themselves into strict buckets on who they are attracted to. Adding in that the national average of non-straights has also over doubled in the past 10 years.

 

[smitcompton]

This is what I found when I tried to fact check the California law:

California bill on youth mental health services distorted on social media

A social media post is misrepresenting a California bill that aims to expand access to mental health services on an outpatient basis for youth between the ages of 12 and 17.

apnews.com

So no, California is not allowing children to start medications without parental awareness or consent. That’s misinformation.

I highly discourage people from using social media or network celebrities for keeping themselves informed of facts.

Hi,
Your link is about mental health care for youth. i don' use social media for my information.

I have rechecked my information and I see that school districts are taking votes on whether to notify parents if their child is transitioning I m unclear if this is social or medical. The Cal. Teacher's union has asked for clinics to be put in schools, which is an additional step for the medical part of this transitioning(to me), One law they are using is the anti-discrimination law to protect LGBTQ, Thats fine .

This talk about our children shows there is still some things people care about. Is there anyone better to be concerned about than our children.? So far, contrary what some on here would have you believe what is "right" here is not clear. Fifty years down the road what will history think.

Annette

 

[smitcompton]

Sexuality is not a bucket of all in or all out, it's a spectrum. Instead of pigeon-holing people into one bucket, we are realizing that you can be anywhere on the spectrum. I'd suggest that we are being more open minded and people are utilizing that to explore their sexuality and feelings more freely. Something that wasnt necessarily encouraged or allowed. In many places, even in the US, it is not OK to be gay or bi or anything but straight. Just because that's the "national average" doesnt mean its accurate. I'll also add the demographic of university students skews heavily to more liberal/open minded folks, who are more accepting of these differences.

I also looked up the study, and it's interesting, but not really the bombshell you're making it out to be. It says "38% of students identified as either homosexual, bisexual, queer, asexual, pansexual, questioning or other" and it also states that a study from 10 years ago found 14% of the students identified as such. So even 10 years ago, students here were far more likely than the national average to identify as not-straight. And including "questioning or other" also leaves a huge gap.The largest change was in students identifying as bisexual. Which I think lends itself well to my first paragraph, as many people are not putting themselves into strict buckets on who they are attracted to. Adding in that the national average of non-straights has also over doubled in the past 10 years.

Hi telephone,
This was not meant as a bombshell. The point and question that I asked, is this contagion?. I am not disputing LGBTQ sexuality. How ever, as far as I know there are two sexes. That is what we are discussing.
Annette

 

[smitcompton]

This topic is hugely important and nuanced.

I'm learning a lot, and am grateful PS allows its discussion here.

This brings to mind the "normalization" of gays we've witnessed in a generation or so.
Sure it's two steps forward and one step back, but over time society improves as we soldier on to emerge from the dark ages.

Hi,

Yes, there is some normalization of gays.

I have a new question. Why is this issue in the schools.? Why isn't it between a patient, a parent and their doctor. Why is the state involved to such an extent? Is the use of a bathroom creating all this noise?

Annette

 

[smitcompton]

I would like to see the source for this as I would be very surprised if a child that is 12 can be prescribed and take a medication for transitioning without parental consent. They may have rolled it up into adolescent health like birth control but even so id be surprised if they classified affirming hormones into that since the changes are visible and you’d be setting up this kid to possibly get kicked out of the home. And again, adult perspective in the form of trained physicians are involved.

If the law is about social transition that’s something different and should NOT be conflated with medications or surgical interventions. Schools should not be obligated to tell parents sensitive info if a kid isn’t ready and it’s not causing harm to the kid.

Nobody is arguing contagion isn’t real, but maybe it’s not “contagion” in a negative sense, maybe this generation is moving towards a rejection of gender roles and using the embrace of trans identities to do so. Cool, fine by me. I don’t know, I’m a physician and not a sociologist. But I do care for thousands of children and I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a factor behind the surge in youth rejecting cis gender identities to express distress with gender expectations. Personally it’s fine by me, I think it’d be great if nobody cared who wore a dress or who liked shaving their head. It IS different from those who experience significant gender dysphoria with their biology. It’s maybe unfortunate that these two cohorts share terminology.

And I will say of the thousands of kids I’ve met, hundreds of whom identify as trans (including non binary and gender queer) I can maybe think of 5-10 who are on affirming hormone meds. It’s an extremely low percentage.

Hi,

There Is a protest march by parents in California right now to oppose the policy of withholding a child identity status.

Annette

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Hi telephone,
This was not meant as a bombshell. The point and question that I asked, is this contagion?. I am not disputing LGBTQ sexuality. How ever, as far as I know there are two sexes. That is what we are discussing.
Annette

Actually there are more than just XY and XX or 2 sexes. There are folk who are XXY, XO, and intersex. There are also folk who have specific androgen sensitivity disorders (xy but present like xx until puberty). Also sex does not equal gender/gender roles. Just because something is biological does not mean it must have cultural significance. Just like you can be genetically blonde or colorblind or lactose intolerant but it doesn’t mean we use those to categorize expected behaviors or use them to shape society rules.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Hi,

There Is a protest march by parents in California right now to oppose the policy of withholding a child identity status.

Annette

They can protest if they like, I have joined many protests myself for other things. Peaceful protest is everyone’s right. I disagree with them but dissenting opinions are not what I find problematic. My problem is people trying to turn their opinion into law and legislating medical care availability and access

 

[kenny]

... I have a new question. Why is this issue in the schools.? Why isn't it between a patient, a parent and their doctor. Why is the state involved to such an extent? Is the use of a bathroom creating all this noise? ...

I'd guess both bathroom use and pronouns.

 

[kenny]

Pronouns go to the heart of how we think about others, and how we categorize them.

It was simple before when there were only two jars, he and she.
Babies born intersex were quickly and quietly surgically "fixed" so they can go into one of the 2 jars that existed, boy or girl.
While only 2 genders was convenient it was an oversimplification since it excluded some people who were shamed and rejected by "normal" society.
But the truth is that people vary, and that is an uncomfortable truth for many.

I think today these uncomfortable people are angry and feel they are being forced to change to this new more-complicated (although more accurate) pronoun usage.

Recently I got a dressing down from a very dear friend about hesitating to immediately and fully embrace reporting my pronouns.
The important point he made is communicating your pronouns may seem obvious and unnecessary to those who were comfortable in one or the other of the past's 2-jar system.
But communicating what pronouns you use (which no longer 'goes without saying', and no longer obvious, sends a message of acceptance and safety to the many who place themselves in other jars, or in no jar at all.

I'm learning.

 

[jaysonsmom]

Or we could just not be anti-trans bigots…

Thank you! My sentiments exactly. I was struggling to come up with this response. ——-proud mom of a trans son who can do it all!

 

[Avondale]

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a factor behind the surge in youth rejecting cis gender identities to express distress with gender expectations.

I think this hits the nail right on the head and it's something I've suspected to be the case for a while now. I've heard the stories of one too many girls who've been treated so poorly as girls in their lives, they no longer wish to be referred to as "her" and find comfort in being non-binary. And I think that's so profoundly sad. To feel forcefully stripped of your female identity because the outside world is determined to be cruel and unfair to you.

It's wrong. It's not how it should be. It's not young people who should be assuming different identities as a coping mechanism, it's society who should learn to treat people equally and fairly regardless of who they were born. I know, I know... we don't live in a perfect world and I'm wishing for too much.

 

[kenny]

I think this hits the nail right on the head and it's something I've suspected to be the case for a while now. I've heard the stories of one too many girls who've been treated so poorly as girls in their lives, they no longer wish to be referred to as "her" and find comfort in being non-binary. And I think that's so profoundly sad. To feel forcefully stripped of your female identity because the outside world is determined to be cruel and unfair to you.

It's wrong. It's not how it should be. It's not young people who should be assuming different identities as a coping mechanism, it's society who should learn to treat people equally and fairly regardless of who they were born. I know, I know... we don't live in a perfect world and I'm wishing for too much.

It seems reasonable to me this may be true in some cases.
Men almost always have gotten a better deal than women.
Not right, not fair, but there it is.

Then I did a search for the ratio of trans men to trans women.
The first search return said, MTF transitions are 2 to 4x more likely than FTM.
Here's a screen capture of the first return:




Source: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23841/why-are-trans-women-more-common-than-trans-men

 

[Avondale]

@kenny You misunderstand me. I should clarify, I wasn't referring to people transitioning from one sex into the other. I dare say, there's much we don't understand about why a person might identify with the opposite gender. Perhaps one day science will discover the reason, but for now all that can be done is for society to accept them as who they are and for modern medicine to help them live the life they want to have.

I was referring specifically to that quote about rejecting traditional gender identities. Things have long been past the point where MtF and FtM is all that existed. There's a significant number of people now who aren't strictly transitioning into the opposite sex but instead are identifying as a gender different than either male or female. To my knowledge, this doesn't involve any medical interference, but instead is expressed entirely in social ways - behaviour, clothes, personal style, pronouns and so on.

 

[kenny]

Thanks for the clarification, Avondale.

 

[telephone89]

Hi telephone,
This was not meant as a bombshell. The point and question that I asked, is this contagion?. I am not disputing LGBTQ sexuality. How ever, as far as I know there are two sexes. That is what we are discussing.
Annette

You're the one that brought up this survey as some sort of pearl clutching thing to be concerned about, I was just clarifying some reasons behind it.

 

[seaurchin]

The world changes so much that sometimes I think it's hard for us older folks to keep up or even know what in the world people are talking about.

My feeling is that re gender and sexuality, there may definitely be some "trying out a new thing" involved for a few teens who see other people differ from their "expected" gender and find it interesting or edgy or whatever. But if it's not really "them," then I'd think it would just be a passing phase, as kids do when figuring out their way in the world.

Also, I think the whole issue has been made much bigger than it needs to be with the so-called "culture wars." There's so much exaggeration and misinformation out there.

Imo there always has been and always will be a certain percentage of people who just don't fit the fat part of the bell curve, on any given thing. We've probably all had that experience, in at least some small way. It can be very hard.

And my guess is that the main difference now is just that more of the small(?) percentage who differ from the mainstream male/female gender identity etc. feel more free to express it, instead of being forced to live a lie so as to avoid some very harsh consequences.

I've "known" a couple of people (online) who say they feel like a man some days and a woman other days or who just want to be a person and neither. To me, it's a little hard to grasp because it's so different from how I feel/think/am. But if someone who looks like a male to me asks me to call them she/her or whatever, okay, why would I care. And why should I expect things to always be the same as they were decades ago.

I go with just trying to be accepting and leaving other people alone. And staying out of trying to influence any laws, rules or decisions on things I don't know much about and that don't affect me or one of my closest loved ones (as far as I know).

I try to have an open mind because I hate that stuff about how much better the good old days were. I feel like that's an old, stuffy, boring attitude, when you stop being open to and curious about new-to-you things.

I have noticed that it bugs me if I can't tell if someone is male or female, even if it's just someone walking by. I think that for us older folks, clearly male or female was expected and a very basic part of someone's identity. So I sort of lose my grip a bit on the expected order of things in a small way, if that makes sense. (A "who moved my cheese" moment?). In reality though, why should I care.

When I was young, new philosophies, items, whatever were always so exciting and I couldn't wait to know all about them. I'm trying to recapture that attitude in general but I keep having to remind myself lol. Old dogs can learn new tricks (but it can be a little harder).

All JMHO and sorry for blabbing on!

 

[OboeGal]

Thank you, @missy - and may I say that it's delightful to be "talking" with you once again. I've missed a lot of folks here, you among them.

@MakingTheGrade, I'm deeply grateful that you've weighed in here with your experience, knowledge, and expertise - thank you.

@telephone89, I'm really glad you brought up human sexuality and gender as spectrums rather than discrete bins - that agrees with what I've seen in the medical, psychological, and sociological literature since I started looking at it in the 1980s. When people are surveyed in confidential settings where they can be convinced that their answers are secret and anonymous and that there will be no social consequences, far more people identify as bisexual and/or gender-fluid than one would expect. I had sociology texts that clearly stated that the research indicates that the majority of humans are in fact to some degree bisexual, and that those who are extremely exclusively at the opposite ends of either heterosexual or homosexual are the outliers. It's social conditioning that "pushes" so many to one or the other end, usually the heterosexual end. The same appears to be the case around gender identity. We have anthropological data that indicates that gender identity outside the male/female binary has existed since the beginning of human existence, and in many indigenous societies has been common and embraced - even revered.

It's nice to see you, too @smitcompton. I don't know that I'm all that smart, but I've got a decent science background, especially around the confluence of medicine and behavior, and I have people who are very near and dear to me who are trans, so I've spent decades with an intimate view of what their lives involve and studying gender dysphoria so that I can be of as much support to them as I can. I hope I don't come across to you personally as angry, as that's not my intent. I believe I've come to know you enough over the years here to say with confidence that your heart is warm and kind, and that your personal views are coming from a place of legitimate concern around the well-being of kids based on seeing a lot of change happening quickly plus there being a plethora of misinformation out there around all of it. I hope that the information that @MakingTheGrade and I are sharing can be of reassurance to you.

@smitcompton, you've mentioned surgery a couple times, so I wanted to let you know that, even prior to state legislatures banning gender-affirming surgery for minors, surgery for minors was incredibly, vanishingly rare, to the point of almost never done, and in the few instances it was done, was in kids very nearly 18 who had long histories of gender dysphoria and were at very high risk of suicide without the surgery. It's just not considered standard-of-care for minors except in the most absolute extreme of circumstances. The overwhelming majority of gender-affirming care for minors actually is social transitioning (name, pronouns, dress, etc.) and counseling, and this will over time "weed out" those kids who are "trying on" trans identity but aren't actually trans. If medical care is used, it's usually puberty blockers initially, and only once they reach the age where puberty is an issue, and if hormones are used, it's later, well into their teens. While it's possible for puberty blockers to have effects on bone density and fertility, they usually don't and instead are fully reversible if stopped, which allows the puberty process to take place, just delayed. (They're routinely used also for kids who experience precocious puberty.) For kids and parents who are uncertain, they can buy them time before more final decisions are made and they either continue forward in transition or stop the blockers and experience the same puberty process that they would have, and for those who are certain and have a long history of successful social transition, they set them up for much less distress in the short-term and a much more successful transition in adulthood, including surgery if chosen, as I explained in my prior post. Hormones, if used, come later in the teens, typically in those who also have a long history of doing well with social transition and puberty blockers, and their effects are also mostly reversible if stopped in anyone who hasn't yet had gender-affirming surgery.

@smitcompton, you also mentioned there only being two sexes, and as @MakingTheGrade mentioned, that's not actually the case - it's more complex than that. In addition to that reality, we have studies that explain many, if not most, cases of gender dysphoria that indicate that one really can have the characteristics of both genders, to varying degrees, in the same body. Autopsy studies that were around in the 1990s indicated that there are structures and "wiring" in the brain that tend to vary between men who identify as men and women who identify as women. For many trans MtoF people, they were found on autopsy to have brain structure and wiring that more closely resembled that in women who identify as women, and for many trans FtoM people, their brains more closely resembled men who identified as men. In other words - despite being born with chromosomes and genital structures that pointed to one gender, their brains went the other way. Imaging studies done since then have had the same results. Of course, it's likely that some folks have brain structure that falls somewhere between the two, since body structures vary a bit for each individual, and that may explain some people who identify as non-binary. It's believed that something can go differently in fetal development where brain development doesn't "match" chromosomes and genital structure, perhaps due to maternal hormone levels and exposure to environmental chemicals and endocrine disruptors - more research is needed. It IS clear that some number of people have been born this way since humans have existed, though. The numbers have been higher in more accepting societies, such as some indigenous cultures, than in western society, likely due to harsh penalties, much of it religious-based, against those who didn't follow strict gender norms leading these folks to hide their true selves at tremendous personal emotional and psychological cost, but as many are striving toward a more accepting, honest society in the west these days without some peoples' religious beliefs dictating the lives of all, people, including kids, are feeling freer to be more open about it.