Obama''s Speech....

[LAJennifer]

Date: 4/1/2008 12:53:01 PM
Author: MoonWater

LAJennifer, I don''t think you should be pissed off that you are being judged, I think you should be pissed off that as a collective, white people are oblivious to these things. You are not, that''s awesome. Just like I''m considered ''abnormal'' in the black community for my willingness to understand more than my (black) side. But that doesn''t mean I don''t agree with Bill Cosby when he said black people need to get their sh*t together because they are ignoring all of the advantages that his generation (and the many before him) worked so hard for.

note: I rushed to type this out at work so pardon all errors or lack of articulation hehehe

Because I think that ANYONE who labels groups or perpetuates false assumptions about others, is part of the problem and not the solution. (and Moon - I really enjoy your posts and thought processes, even though I sometimes share a different view).

 

[MoonWater]

I guess the difference is that I don't think they are false assumptions at all. In fact, the reaction white people had to Rev. Wright actually confirmed that belief. White people really are living in a bubble most of the time. If people can not admit this because they do not believe they fit the general label, we can not make any progress (and btw this goes for ALL races). People need to admit that this is, in fact, what's going on. I'm still baffled at all the black people that gave Bill Cosby flack for what he said when he was absolutely right.

Btw-thanks for the compliment and tolerating my different view without being a meany!

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 4/1/2008 1:18:32 PM
Author: MoonWater
I guess the difference is that I don''t think they are false assumptions at all. In fact, the reaction white people had to Rev. Wright actually confirmed that belief. White people really are living in a bubble most of the time. If people can not admit this because they do not believe they fit the general label, we can not make any progress (and btw this goes for ALL races). People need to admit that this is, in fact, what''s going on. I''m still baffled at all the black people that gave Bill Cosby flack for what he said when he was absolutely right.

Btw-thanks for the compliment and tolerating my different view without being a meany!

I''m at work right now - so I don''t have to time to get into details at the moment. However, I''m speaking for myself when I say that I believe a continuous message of victimization - the deck is stacked against you, etc . . . breeds hopelessness and is not a message that will unify. I want to drop this link - it is from the website of a gentleman who spoke at my junior high - and I bought his message hook, link and sinker (as did everyone else in my school). And I still believe it - over 20 years later: http://www.drewbrown.net/facts.html

 

[diamondfan]

Just an interesting note. I got an email from a Philadelphian who went to the same school as Rev. Wright and knew his family and where he grew up here. It seems he came from a very solid middle class background and a two parent home, went to a good school and lived in a lovely tree lined neighborhood in Germantown.

I would not presume that he lived the struggle filled life that has been mentioned, nor would it seem did Obama. And I DO NOT say that he should have, but it does make a bit of a difference, in that there are people who DID and DO have those struggles, non whites and others as well, but it would seem that this was not the life that he experienced. I just found it noteworthy.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 5:14:08 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/1/2008 1:18:32 PM
Author: MoonWater
I guess the difference is that I don't think they are false assumptions at all. In fact, the reaction white people had to Rev. Wright actually confirmed that belief. White people really are living in a bubble most of the time. If people can not admit this because they do not believe they fit the general label, we can not make any progress (and btw this goes for ALL races). People need to admit that this is, in fact, what's going on. I'm still baffled at all the black people that gave Bill Cosby flack for what he said when he was absolutely right.

Btw-thanks for the compliment and tolerating my different view without being a meany!

I'm at work right now - so I don't have to time to get into details at the moment. However, I'm speaking for myself when I say that I believe a continuous message of victimization - the deck is stacked against you, etc . . . breeds hopelessness and is not a message that will unify. I want to drop this link - it is from the website of a gentleman who spoke at my junior high - and I bought his message hook, link and sinker (as did everyone else in my school). And I still believe it - over 20 years later: http://www.drewbrown.net/facts.html

Since you gave me this link, I'm assuming you have not read what Bill Cosby said which upset the black community. Here's a link: http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm . What he addressed was the constant mindset of victimization. I'm not attempting to perpetuate that, but saying, just what Obama did in his speech, that it's coming from all sides. Black people as a whole need to stop talking about the (white) man keeping them down and white people as a whole need to stop pretending that their skin color does not afford them certain privileges that other races do not have. It's a two way street. White people can't tell black people to stop playing the victim until they work on their own issues which involves a lack of understanding and empathy for why black people still feel pain over slavery, reconstruction, and the civil rights era. Black people can't keep whining about white people holding them back as long as they continue to ignore the many advantages they have that their ancestors did not.

The fact that some individuals (such as you or myself) from each group feel as though the message does not apply to them doesn't mean that generally, it doesn't applies to their race. The longer everyone refuses to acknowledge this, the more often you will see a personality like Wright and others being shocked and appalled that someone thinks that way.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 5:23:28 PM
Author: diamondfan
Just an interesting note. I got an email from a Philadelphian who went to the same school as Rev. Wright and knew his family and where he grew up here. It seems he came from a very solid middle class background and a two parent home, went to a good school and lived in a lovely tree lined neighborhood in Germantown.

I would not presume that he lived the struggle filled life that has been mentioned, nor would it seem did Obama. And I DO NOT say that he should have, but it does make a bit of a difference, in that there are people who DID and DO have those struggles, non whites and others as well, but it would seem that this was not the life that he experienced. I just found it noteworthy.

Considering his age, I would think he felt more racism in that environment than he would have growing up in an inner city surrounded by black people and going to a crap school (filled with black people). In fact, knowing this sheds some light as to why he is so angry and bitter. This lack of "struggle" financially and the presents of a solid family doesn''t change the impact of Jim Crow on a black person.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Just had to poke my head in on this thread again...

I''ve got some issues with the racial focus of this election. It is not my focus.
I focus on the issue of class and economic disparity. I understand that class and race are inextricably linked, but I believe that it is clouding what this election is all about, fundamental change.

Fundamental change is not focusing on the color or gender of our president. True change is focusing on how each individual will act as president.

When I look at Hillary Clinton, I don''t see a woman. When I look at Obama, I don''t see a black man. I see them as voices, mouthpieces for alleged change.

Maybe, I''m coming from the lofty perspective that is a result of having foundations laid for me.

But,

I''m a biracial Asian who looks Asian for the most part. I grew up in the South, and I have experienced racism from all sides. I was the only Asian in a predominantly white Junior High School, and I was one of two Asians in a predominantly black High School. Let''s just say that I got it from both sides, and I can look back, as an adult, and know it''s the classic Colonial divide and conquer strategy--let''s pit the different races against each other.

But when it comes to presidential politics and looking at candidates who could potentially change the current state of affairs, I cannot focus on race.

What I see happening is classic Democratic Party dysfunction, which plays directly into the hands of the Right''s(Colonial)strategy. The Right will sit back and let the Democrats dismantle their own message, and then move in for the spoils.

The National discussion about race in this election, though important in many respects, will be manipulated and turned against those that mean well.

I choose to stay focused on the enormous economic disparity that is dragging us all down. We can no longer afford to be excluded from the decision making.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/1/2008 12:53:01 PM
Author: MoonWater
I guess the real question comes down to, why take personal offense to something which you believe does not apply to you? Why, because it does not apply specifically to you, do you not understand how it may apply to your race generally? I just had this conversation with FF last night (who's white btw, I'm black), and I told him (not that he didn't already know), white people can afford to be colorblind, black people can not.

Why is it that when there is a pro-black initiative, white people think it means anti-white? White people often say, 'Why do you need this? Why can't you just have something for everyone?' I think this is because white people take for granted that the things they view as 'for everyone' are actually more for white people. To keep this simple, lets look at the entertainment business. Television/movies. You can have a sitcom or a comedy with a cast of only white folks (throw in a token black, asian, or hispanic), and white people think it's a movie/show for all. But if you have a show or movie with a predominently black cast, suddenly it's a show for black people. Even the studios treated films this way when it's time to market. If it's a predom black cast, it only gets advertised in urban areas, but the 'white' movies get advertised everywhere. Sure the 'black' movie is more likely to do better in urban areas, but by not even trying to promote it in any other way, you pigeonhole the film (and most of the time, the actors in the film).

Look at magazines. Cosmo, Elle, Marie Claire, Lucky are all viewed as magazines for all women. Ebony and Essence are viewed as black magazines.

When I was growing up, all the little black girls wanted the white barbie. Why? Because she was the REAL barbie.

All of this seems trivial, but these are the little things we grow up with that white people don't have to deal with. There is most definitely such a thing as white privilege. Do I believe every white person benefits from it, not necessarily, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

LAJennifer, I don't think you should be pissed off that you are being judged, I think you should be pissed off that as a collective, white people are oblivious to these things. You are not, that's awesome. Just like I'm considered 'abnormal' in the black community for my willingness to understand more than my (black) side. But that doesn't mean I don't agree with Bill Cosby when he said black people need to get their sh*t together because they are ignoring all of the advantages that his generation (and the many before him) worked so hard for.

note: I rushed to type this out at work so pardon all errors or lack of articulation hehehe

I wasn't into barbies, but I totally had a black cabbage patch kid doll. She was awesome.

All levity aside, though, I agree with you. One reason I was so impressed by Obama's speech on race is that rather than trying to pretend that these things aren't realities for the majority of Americans, he acknowleged them and encouraged others to as well. As someone on Bill Maher's show said, he spoke to America as though we were adults (uh-oh). It's sad to me that such divides still exist in our society...I wish that the US truly was colorblind. To achieve that, though, I think we have to admit to ourselves that our society has a long way to go and work towards it rather than pretending everything is ok.

LAJennifer, I see where you're coming from. Telling people that they're victims doesn't help. On the other hand, ignoring existing problems breeds hopelessness as well. Saying "yes, we are divided right now, but if we all work together we can overcome that" seems to be a pretty good median to me.


I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this--so many smart and politically savvy PSers!

ETA: This thread is moving FAST! Coati, I think that the economy, healthcare, foreign policy, etc. are still the main issues for most people. Unfortunately because of the ingrained racism and sexism in our culture, it was going to be pretty much impossible for these two candidates to run without those subjects coming up. Just my $.02 anyhow.

 

[MoonWater]

Kudos to you coati, I completely agree with you. I''m focusing on the race aspect in this thread simply due to the speech. But I''ve always had this very odd habit of not caring enough about the superficial differences in people compared to my interest in them as simply people. However, I''m always sure never to ignore the fact that those superficial aspects could have an impact on their personality and worldview. With Clinton and Obama, race and gender has nothing to do with my decision to support or not support.

 

[diamondfan]

No. I GET THAT. One does not have to suffer to make a point, but one cannot act as if it is a universal experience if it is not. Racism sadly seems to still be so present and so tough to contend with. But he did not necessarily have the base experience. And, I am white, so I cannot relate to anyone''s struggle on that front and do not presume to. But I am not and have never ever been a racist, that is just not how I view the world. However, I just feel that we cannot move forward if we stay mired in the hatred of the past. Of course we must learn from it, and never forget it or diminish the experience of people who suffered any form of persecution, but we must be able to look forward and look to harmony if at all possible. I am Jewish and I know friends who lost family in the Holocaust. Would hating all Germans NOW, non Nazi non anti semitic Germans, accomplish anythng? Not all feelings are rational of course, but...I would say, in this day and age, I would have anger towards people who still feel the same way or treat non whites in the ways of decades ago. That I would feel angry about. But I would not assume anything else.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:13:54 PM
Author: MoonWater
Kudos to you coati, I completely agree with you. I''m focusing on the race aspect in this thread simply due to the speech. But I''ve always had this very odd habit of not caring enough about the superficial differences in people compared to my interest in them as simply people. However, I''m always sure never to ignore the fact that those superficial aspects could have an impact on their personality and worldview. With Clinton and Obama, race and gender has nothing to do with my decision to support or not support.

Ditto to that!

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:10:04 PM
Author: ladypirate


LAJennifer, I see where you''re coming from. Telling people that they''re victims doesn''t help. On the other hand, ignoring existing problems breeds hopelessness as well. Saying ''yes, we are divided right now, but if we all work together we can overcome that'' seems to be a pretty good median to me.


I''m enjoying reading everyone''s thoughts on this--so many smart and politically savvy PSers!

ETA: This thread is moving FAST! Coati, I think that the economy, healthcare, foreign policy, etc. are still the main issues for most people. Unfortunately because of the ingrained racism and sexism in our culture, it was going to be pretty much impossible for these two candidates to run without those subjects coming up. Just my $.02 anyhow.

I''m not saying that there aren''t problems - EVERYBODY has problems. Sharing how much we are alike (in 200, rather than pointing out differences that may or may not be true (given everyone''s experiences are individual), is a much more likely to unify. We all want health, happiness and success for ourselves and those we love.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:15:10 PM
Author: diamondfan
No. I GET THAT. One does not have to suffer to make a point, but one cannot act as if it is a universal experience if it is not. Racism sadly seems to still be so present and so tough to contend with. But he did not necessarily have the base experience. And, I am white, so I cannot relate to anyone''s struggle on that front and do not presume to. But I am not and have never ever been a racist, that is just not how I view the world. However, I just feel that we cannot move forward if we stay mired in the hatred of the past. Of course we must learn from it, and never forget it or diminish the experience of people who suffered any form of persecution, but we must be able to look forward and look to harmony if at all possible. I am Jewish and I know friends who lost family in the Holocaust. Would hating all Germans NOW, non Nazi non anti semitic Germans, accomplish anythng? Not all feelings are rational of course, but...I would say, in this day and age, I would have anger towards people who still feel the same way or treat non whites in the ways of decades ago. That I would feel angry about. But I would not assume anything else.

I''m not sure I understand what you''re saying here. Your post about how Wright grew up seemed to imply that he didn''t struggle in the way that poor blacks do, and thus maybe he didn''t have the credibility for his anger? What I said is that I think it gives him far stronger reasons for it because he was likely confronted with racism more often than poor black folks. Like coati''s experience with being the only or one of two Asian people in her school. If a black kid went to a "good" school in Wright''s day, that meant it was a predominently white school. I can only imagine what he went throug during that time in this country.

As far as holding on to hatred, I think you are misunderstanding. I don''t think the Holocast is a good analogy because Jewish people are not in Germany under a system which still favors their oppressors. Unfortunately, black people are. That''s the problem with others saying "it''s all in the past, we need to move forward." It''s not actually in the past. Sure, no one''s lynching anybody anymore (well there are isolated stories), but the criminal justice system works disproportionately against blacks (especially black men, which adds to the problem of the black family as a whole). Cities are still extremely segregated where the worst schools are in the black neighborhoods. This of course makes black people less qualified for jobs. This isn''t a past problem, this is an ignoring the past problem. That''s why black people are still angry, bitter, and resentful. People keep thinking that just because we aren''t slaves anymore, we don''t feel the repercussions of that time. I feel very fortunate that I had an Aunt who would be considered middle class and educated who pretty much saved me. I don''t doubt that otherwise I would have been a statistic. But I never forget that not everyone is so lucky.

There is an excellent book on this called Enthicity in the United States. It covers all the ways that the black population in the United States continues to suffer due to the mistakes of the past. Trust me, it is not even remotely over. (And for the record, this book covers all ethnicities).

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:23:30 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/1/2008 6:10:04 PM
Author: ladypirate


LAJennifer, I see where you''re coming from. Telling people that they''re victims doesn''t help. On the other hand, ignoring existing problems breeds hopelessness as well. Saying ''yes, we are divided right now, but if we all work together we can overcome that'' seems to be a pretty good median to me.


I''m enjoying reading everyone''s thoughts on this--so many smart and politically savvy PSers!

ETA: This thread is moving FAST! Coati, I think that the economy, healthcare, foreign policy, etc. are still the main issues for most people. Unfortunately because of the ingrained racism and sexism in our culture, it was going to be pretty much impossible for these two candidates to run without those subjects coming up. Just my $.02 anyhow.

I''m not saying that there aren''t problems - EVERYBODY has problems. Sharing how much we are alike (in 200, rather than pointing out differences that may or may not be true (given everyone''s experiences are individual), is a much more likely to unify. We all want health, happiness and success for ourselves and those we love.

To me, though, that''s what Obama''s speech was all about. It was "black america has issues, white america has issues, everyone regardless of color in america has issues--if we can all move past them, we''ll realize that we can work together to SOLVE them!"

I actually don''t think our views are all that different--it''s almost a matter of approach and/or semantics.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:13:54 PM
Author: MoonWater
Kudos to you coati, I completely agree with you. I'm focusing on the race aspect in this thread simply due to the speech. But I've always had this very odd habit of not caring enough about the superficial differences in people compared to my interest in them as simply people. However, I'm always sure never to ignore the fact that those superficial aspects could have an impact on their personality and worldview. With Clinton and Obama, race and gender has nothing to do with my decision to support or not support.

Right back at'cha Moon

The lens through which I view the world is colored by my own race and the race of others. Like you, I can never ignore the circumstances that surround individuals, but at the same time, I can be oblivious to negative connotations of race. Those dang petty human distinctions are really meaningless, and I wish the focus could lay elsewhere.

I enjoy your posts much!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:23:30 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/1/2008 6:10:04 PM
Author: ladypirate


LAJennifer, I see where you''re coming from. Telling people that they''re victims doesn''t help. On the other hand, ignoring existing problems breeds hopelessness as well. Saying ''yes, we are divided right now, but if we all work together we can overcome that'' seems to be a pretty good median to me.


I''m enjoying reading everyone''s thoughts on this--so many smart and politically savvy PSers!

ETA: This thread is moving FAST! Coati, I think that the economy, healthcare, foreign policy, etc. are still the main issues for most people. Unfortunately because of the ingrained racism and sexism in our culture, it was going to be pretty much impossible for these two candidates to run without those subjects coming up. Just my $.02 anyhow.

I''m not saying that there aren''t problems - EVERYBODY has problems. Sharing how much we are alike (in 200, rather than pointing out differences that may or may not be true (given everyone''s experiences are individual), is a much more likely to unify. We all want health, happiness and success for ourselves and those we love.

And this is much easier for generations younger than Wright to accomplish. That''s one of the reasons why I think Obama sees things different and why me and my FF see things differently than our parents. But, we can not ignore the well earned grievances of the older generation, on BOTH sides. It is much better to educate ourselves on their experience so we can show empathy and understanding in order to make sure others don''t suffer what they did. Ignoring it will not accomplish this.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:10:04 PM
Author: ladypirate
All levity aside, though, I agree with you. One reason I was so impressed by Obama''s speech on race is that rather than trying to pretend that these things aren''t realities for the majority of Americans, he acknowleged them and encouraged others to as well. As someone on Bill Maher''s show said, he spoke to America as though we were adults (uh-oh). It''s sad to me that such divides still exist in our society...I wish that the US truly was colorblind. To achieve that, though, I think we have to admit to ourselves that our society has a long way to go and work towards it rather than pretending everything is ok.

Exactly! It''s time to put it on the table, discuss it thoroughly and THEN we can move on.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:33:52 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 4/1/2008 6:13:54 PM
Author: MoonWater
Kudos to you coati, I completely agree with you. I'm focusing on the race aspect in this thread simply due to the speech. But I've always had this very odd habit of not caring enough about the superficial differences in people compared to my interest in them as simply people. However, I'm always sure never to ignore the fact that those superficial aspects could have an impact on their personality and worldview. With Clinton and Obama, race and gender has nothing to do with my decision to support or not support.

Right back at'cha Moon

The lens through which I view the world is colored by my own race and the race of others. Like you, I can never ignore the circumstances that surround individuals, but at the same time, I can be oblivious to negative connotations of race. Those dang petty human distinctions are really meaningless, and I wish the focus could lay elsewhere.

I enjoy your posts much!

Aww thanks, I enjoy reading your posts as well. Have you ever heard of a PBS documentary called Journey of Man? I highly recommend it. It proves that there is actually no such thing as race and shows how we all originated in Africa and how we traveled to Australia, India, Central Asia, Europe, all the way to the United States. What's really awesome about it is that you get to see and understand how we developed diferent facial features and skin tones. One day maybe we can all appreciate this and not have these kinds of discussions anymore. Here's an Amazon.com link: http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Man-Dr-Spencer-Wells/dp/B0000AYL48/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1207089732&sr=1-1, I believe there is also a book.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:32:25 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/1/2008 6:15:10 PM

Jewish people are not in Germany under a system which still favors their oppressors. Unfortunately, black people are. That's the problem with others saying 'it's all in the past, we need to move forward.' It's not actually in the past. Sure, no one's lynching anybody anymore (well there are isolated stories), but the criminal justice system works disproportionately against blacks (especially black men, which adds to the problem of the black family as a whole). Cities are still extremely segregated where the worst schools are in the black neighborhoods. This of course makes black people less qualified for jobs. This isn't a past problem, this is an ignoring the past problem. That's why black people are still angry, bitter, and resentful. People keep thinking that just because we aren't slaves anymore, we don't feel the repercussions of that time. I feel very fortunate that I had an Aunt who would be considered middle class and educated who pretty much saved me. I don't doubt that otherwise I would have been a statistic. But I never forget that not everyone is so lucky.


There is an excellent book on this called Enthicity in the United States. It covers all the ways that the black population in the United States continues to suffer due to the mistakes of the past. Trust me, it is not even remotely over. (And for the record, this book covers all ethnicities).

That's right.

I've spent the past 10 years in Chicago and Los Angeles. Two of the most segregated cities you can find. The demographic studies are saddening. For example, the highest concentrations of liquors stores and fast food chains are in over populated black areas. And what about the lack of healthcare? ie the King-Harbor nightmare. Black people in this country have been purposefully isolated since the very beginning. There may not currently be lynchings to our knowledge, but the symbolic act of hanging a noose from a tree still goes on today. In this respect, I can't see change on the horizon. That's why I choose to surround myself with people who can look past race. Keeps me sane.

I was at a BBQ last week, and I had the pleasure of hearing someone say, "The Chinese are all liars, cheaters, and thieves."

Honestly, I think people just want to hate each other, and they'll come up with whatever excuse they can. We live on a crowded planet of 6 Billion+ egos. People can't even get along in the checkout line at Walgreens.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:44:37 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/1/2008 6:33:52 PM

Author: coatimundi

Date: 4/1/2008 6:13:54 PM

Author: MoonWater

Kudos to you coati, I completely agree with you. I''m focusing on the race aspect in this thread simply due to the speech. But I''ve always had this very odd habit of not caring enough about the superficial differences in people compared to my interest in them as simply people. However, I''m always sure never to ignore the fact that those superficial aspects could have an impact on their personality and worldview. With Clinton and Obama, race and gender has nothing to do with my decision to support or not support.

Right back at''cha Moon

The lens through which I view the world is colored by my own race and the race of others. Like you, I can never ignore the circumstances that surround individuals, but at the same time, I can be oblivious to negative connotations of race. Those dang petty human distinctions are really meaningless, and I wish the focus could lay elsewhere.


I enjoy your posts much!

Aww thanks, I enjoy reading your posts as well. Have you ever heard of a PBS documentary called Journey of Man? I highly recommend it. It proves that there is actually no such thing as race and shows how we all originated in Africa and how we traveled to Australia, India, Central Asia, Europe, all the way to the United States. What''s really awesome about it is that you get to see and understand how we developed diferent facial features and skin tones. One day maybe we can all appreciate this and not have these kinds of discussions anymore. Here''s an Amazon.com link: http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Man-Dr-Spencer-Wells/dp/B0000AYL48/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1207089732&sr=1-1, I believe there is also a book.

I''d really like to see that! I saw something similar awhile ago called, "Finding Eve?" I''m not sure if that is the right title, but it''s the same concept. I''ll check it out, thanks!

 

[diamondfan]

Well, Moon, not really sure what you are looking for from me. I am entitled to my view. I am not here to split hairs, I am making a general observation. Not all non whites have the same experiences, though I grant it is more than likely the norm that they have had a tougher time. And I while I can admit that, and agree, I cannot comment on what it feels like to live through it since I am caucasian. My comments had to do with the generalization I felt from some of his words that whites are still the enemy all the time. That non whites should still be angry and carry that around inside themselves. What about forgiveness? I find that personally offensive, I am not a racist, never have been and would not knowingly associate with those who are. If you find Germany not applicable, I will mention the middle East instead, where Jews are often marginalized or mistreated for their ethnicity/religious views. Would that be a more apt comparison? They live daily in a war zone, surrounded by enemies whose only goal is their destruction. I KNOW that non whites, sadly and unfortunately, still face many negative struggles. I wish it were not the case. I think it is more evil now because in this day and age because most people do not want to admit that it still does occur, that there is still such negative stuff going on. People want to hide the truth sometimes because we should be more evolved and really practice the tolerance and opened mindedness that gets talked about. But in the real world, it still exists, wherever there is ignorance or hatred or false superiority. Just as there are still, in this generation, neo Nazi''s and Skinheads, raised to hate and scapegoat, who beat up Jewish kids just because they do not like Jews. Just like there are video games wherein you can be a Nazi who hunts down and kills Jews. So I feel perfectly entitled to dislike Rev. Wright''s views and the views of anyone else who would rather stoke anger and stay mired in the past than try to really open a new world. How? I wish I had that answer, it is not an easy riddle to solve, unfortunately. In my view, the tough thing is that there is always going to be hate and persecution in some measure in this world, because man is flawed, and as long as there is one loud flawed voice booming out in anger and a handful of angry or dissatisfied people around to listen, it can take root. I would like to think MOST people are balanced and reasonable, but I know that is not possible. We cannot make all people reasonable. We have to know that those types of people are out there, hopefully keeping out of the way of decent people...but there are no guarantees. But I would like to live in a world where the good and the right stuff is what rises to the top, it is too easy to hate or to fear monger a mass of people, it is harder to help people forgive.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 6:59:58 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 4/1/2008 6:32:25 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/1/2008 6:15:10 PM

Jewish people are not in Germany under a system which still favors their oppressors. Unfortunately, black people are. That's the problem with others saying 'it's all in the past, we need to move forward.' It's not actually in the past. Sure, no one's lynching anybody anymore (well there are isolated stories), but the criminal justice system works disproportionately against blacks (especially black men, which adds to the problem of the black family as a whole). Cities are still extremely segregated where the worst schools are in the black neighborhoods. This of course makes black people less qualified for jobs. This isn't a past problem, this is an ignoring the past problem. That's why black people are still angry, bitter, and resentful. People keep thinking that just because we aren't slaves anymore, we don't feel the repercussions of that time. I feel very fortunate that I had an Aunt who would be considered middle class and educated who pretty much saved me. I don't doubt that otherwise I would have been a statistic. But I never forget that not everyone is so lucky.


There is an excellent book on this called Enthicity in the United States. It covers all the ways that the black population in the United States continues to suffer due to the mistakes of the past. Trust me, it is not even remotely over. (And for the record, this book covers all ethnicities).

That's right.

I've spent the past 10 years in Chicago and Los Angeles. Two of the most segregated cities you can find. The demographic studies are saddening. For example, the highest concentrations of liquors stores and fast food chains are in over populated black areas. And what about the lack of healthcare? ie the King-Harbor nightmare. Black people in this country have been purposefully isolated since the very beginning. There may not currently be lynchings to our knowledge, but the symbolic act of hanging a noose from a tree still goes on today. In this respect, I can't see change on the horizon. That's why I choose to surround myself with people who can look past race. Keeps me sane.

I was at a BBQ last week, and I had the pleasure of hearing someone say, 'The Chinese are all liars, cheaters, and thieves.'

Honestly, I think people just want to hate each other, and they'll come up with whatever excuse they can. We live on a crowded planet of 6 Billion+ egos. People can't even get along in the checkout line at Walgreens.

Heh, it's not even funny but sometimes you can't help to laugh. You could not be more right. I don't think race is the problem, PEOPLE are the problem. Ugh. And I competely relate on trying to stay sane. People really can drive me mad sometimes with their ignorance.

ETA: I need to check out Finding Eve. Thanks!

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/1/2008 7:29:17 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/1/2008 6:59:58 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 4/1/2008 6:32:25 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/1/2008 6:15:10 PM

Jewish people are not in Germany under a system which still favors their oppressors. Unfortunately, black people are. That''s the problem with others saying ''it''s all in the past, we need to move forward.'' It''s not actually in the past. Sure, no one''s lynching anybody anymore (well there are isolated stories), but the criminal justice system works disproportionately against blacks (especially black men, which adds to the problem of the black family as a whole). Cities are still extremely segregated where the worst schools are in the black neighborhoods. This of course makes black people less qualified for jobs. This isn''t a past problem, this is an ignoring the past problem. That''s why black people are still angry, bitter, and resentful. People keep thinking that just because we aren''t slaves anymore, we don''t feel the repercussions of that time. I feel very fortunate that I had an Aunt who would be considered middle class and educated who pretty much saved me. I don''t doubt that otherwise I would have been a statistic. But I never forget that not everyone is so lucky.


There is an excellent book on this called Enthicity in the United States. It covers all the ways that the black population in the United States continues to suffer due to the mistakes of the past. Trust me, it is not even remotely over. (And for the record, this book covers all ethnicities).

That''s right.

I''ve spent the past 10 years in Chicago and Los Angeles. Two of the most segregated cities you can find. The demographic studies are saddening. For example, the highest concentrations of liquors stores and fast food chains are in over populated black areas. And what about the lack of healthcare? ie the King-Harbor nightmare. Black people in this country have been purposefully isolated since the very beginning. There may not currently be lynchings to our knowledge, but the symbolic act of hanging a noose from a tree still goes on today. In this respect, I can''t see change on the horizon. That''s why I choose to surround myself with people who can look past race. Keeps me sane.

I was at a BBQ last week, and I had the pleasure of hearing someone say, ''The Chinese are all liars, cheaters, and thieves.''

Honestly, I think people just want to hate each other, and they''ll come up with whatever excuse they can. We live on a crowded planet of 6 Billion+ egos. People can''t even get along in the checkout line at Walgreens.

Heh, it''s not even funny but sometimes you can''t help to laugh. You could not be more right. I don''t think race is the problem, PEOPLE are the problem. Ugh. And I competely relate on trying to stay sane. People really can drive me mad sometimes with their ignorance.

Word.

 

[MoonWater]

diamondfan, I think it would do you well to review Wright''s sermons in full context because I watched one of the controversal ones and I was moved by the amount of love that was found in it. It amazes me how people take these sermons out of context. The only instance where it felt like he was being hateful was the "God Damn America" incident which, if you see the full sermon, he apparently immediate asked for forgiveness because he expressed that anger. He is human, just like the rest of us. And I think if people spent more time understanding WHY he feels the way he does instead of immediately condemning him, maybe they wouldn''t be so enraged over what he said. If he (we) are to practice forgiveness, perhaps others should do the same with him.

In regard to your analogy I''ll say simply this. If Jewish people expressed rage against their oppressors in that instance, would you blame them? Would you tell them to suck it up and move on because there is no place for hatred? I certainly wouldn''t because I would understand WHY they would be angry. That is the point.

 

[diamondfan]

I would say yes, I GET it, but MOST religious leaders DO NOT advocate hate. Period. The bible certainly has as a theme, in the parts I know of, about turning the other cheek. Hate is not ultimately the great motivator or solver of issues. And often, we hate in others what we most hate in ourselves. I mean, we cannot ignore or pretend that hatred is not a potent and universal human feeling but I would think someone being held up as a spiritual leader might be able to rise above it.

And if hating helped things, great. We are ALL capable of feeling anger or hatred and have at times felt it I am sure. But hate tears you up inside in the long run and does not promote or change anything. Self preservation is vital, but purely hating can undo you too. There is injustice in nearly every country in this world. People are slaughtered everyday, or die in poverty be it from starvation or not being able to get simple medical care. That tears me up too, and it goes on all over the world on a daily basis. I feel terribly for anyone or any group who is bullied or suffers at the hands of ignorant power mongers. And America is not perfect. But I would still not want to live anywhere but here.

And frankly, I have heard all I need or want to in his sermons. You will not convince me otherwise, and that is not really at issue here for me in terms of the election. I would not base my choice on the election solely on that. And I have also watched many CNN and Meet the Press and other political shows that show enough of various sermons of his to make me comfortable in my view. I mean, Obama himself had to come out and disavow his words and message so clearly those views and beliefs of his are not universally held. I did not hear Obama saying that Rev. Wright was right on and that he agreed with him, he had to do damage control and try to minimize the impact of the hatred. Simply, I do not think he is someone I would look to for spiritual guidance.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 3/28/2008 2:16:50 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 3/28/2008 7:54:29 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 3/28/2008 3:29:46 AM

Author: coatimundi

Date: 3/27/2008 8:05:17 PM

Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 3/27/2008 6:18:15 PM


He wants to provide unemployed people with a piece of the ridiculous ''economy stimulus'' pan in place (which is an idiotic concept in itself, let alone thinking that $300 is going to help anyone without a job begin the process of feeding the economy). He flops around on what he stands for regarding immigration (do we want to control the borders or do we want to coddle those who are here illegally, or do both? I''m not sure, he changes his mind on that, too). He has relatively LITTLE governmental/political history (which granted, is better than years of horrible history, but concerns me none-the-less). But mostly I just don''t approve of a man or woman who thinks that our nation is so stupid and watered down intellectually at this point that at any televised debate, the only required answer is interject ''change'' three or four times, all the while, stating nothing more than mere visions of what this ''change'' could mean, in foggy terms. I mean, dig a little deeper, give some real answers to just where you plan to take this country, if given the opportuntiy to lead it. And then, if you change your mind about what you said last week, own up to it. (That should be said of any political figure.) He has also been linked (VERY recently) to affiliates that are not pro-the America that I love, so that is more than scary.



In a nutshell, that''s the core of what I don''t think our country needs.

So, Fisherofmengirly, you''re against Obama''s $30 billion economic stimulus plan? Both Hillary and Obama have proposed such a plan. Were you opposed to Bush''s $168 billion ''stimulus package?''


I think a plan to help out those hardest hit by the housing crisis makes a lot more sense then bailing out Bear Stearns, for example. But if you buy into the charade of ''trickle down'' economics, you probably won''t be in agreement. When you bail out banks, it helps...the banks. When you bail out people in need, especially in the case of the housing crisis, those people theoretically would use the money to pay their mortgages (if not already lost) which puts money directly back into the economy...back into the banks. You''re less likely to run out and buy a new TV, when you''re about to lose your house.


Immigration?? None of the candidates speak as though they would ''coddle'' ''illegals.'' They can''t! Their campaigns would be over if they did.


This ''issue'' of illegal immigration is just a lame excuse to detract voters from the REAL issues this country is facing. The Right is trying to convince voters that terrorists are going to come and get us via the Rio Grande. Meanwhile, corporations are outsourcing/offshoring making huge profits that the economy does not feel. How is that appreciably different from hiring ''illegals?'' Hiring slave labor in China is worse for our economy than hiring ''illegal'' workers to do jobs that many Americans would not ''stoop'' to do!



''Illegal immigration'' as a political platform is pure propaganda. (gotta love alliteration)


And you know, you really should watch the debates. When Dennis Kucinich, for example, in the early debates actually got to speak, he was extremely specific on what he would change, as President, which is precisely why he won''t be elected. He''s not rich, he''s not corporate, and he would likely change this country for the better.


''Who needs change when we''ve got flat screen tvs, SUVs, and Mickey D''s???''

Complacency + Fear = No Change. That''s what the Right relies on.


My name is Coati, and I approve this message.

If the severe problems our country is facing due to illegal immigration isn''t a ''real'' issue, I have no idea what would be. I work for the government, and if you only had an inkling of the amount of fundage that goes into ''coddling'' because that is exactly what it is, for illegal immigrants, it would make you sick. It would have to. I mean, I don''t mind someone coming here for right reasons, because this country is amazing, I just hate to see it wasting away as people who don''t take the appropriate actions to be here legally suck from the revenues and then make it just a hollow shell of what it was to begin with. If you''re not putting into the funds to keep the country running, you don''t need to be receiving the assistance the country is able to provide. That''s just basic. And like I said, if that''s not a ''real'' issue, hmm.

How do you feel about offshoring/outsourcing?

What is creating a drain on the American economy?

What is flattening American worker''s wages?

Illegal immigration and offshoring are methods used by multinationals and localized corporations to maximize their profits, which ultimately creates a cheaper less regulated product that ends up in the hands of the American consumer.

If corporations would pay US workers a living wage and protect US jobs, everyone would benefit.

If the illegal immigration laws were enforced properly, we wouldn''t even be talking about this. The real question is:

''Why are they not being enforced?''

The answer?

The corporations want inordinately huge profits, and Americans want cheap goods.

This points out the hypocrisy in blaming people just like us (and I''m not saying you, Fisher, are specifically doing the blaming--just those who do) fleeing poverty from their own countries, when higher wages are openly offered by US companies.

If Americans would just pay a little more for a head of lettuce, they would be putting their money where their mouth is.


...and when I write about propaganda and fear, that has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. The Right (not you Fisher) is using powerful propaganda to instill fear in the American people. It''s just another guise for racism. Whenever there is a Chinese recall, for example, who do Americans blame? The Chinese--not the corporations who do the outsourcing. We are to blame for giving away the store. When US workers lose their jobs? Who do Americans blame? The illegal workers, of course! Not the companies that are hiring the ''illegals.''

What I am saying is that we need to look at the cause and not the symptoms.

I absolutely agree with this. I used to be one of those people who''d moan and complain that everything was made somewhere else, and then I''d look for the cheapest, not caring where it came from. However, my husband is completely different from this, and in turn, I have come to appreciate buying American made, as well. It''s a matter of pride and of knowing that we''re working toward supporting our economy, and more than that, the people who live here. He goes to extremes, and I wish I had the devotion to it that he has.

He recently spent over a week researching tires to find the brands made in the US, and not just the ones with American names that are now outsourcing. It wasn''t the cheapest way to go, but they are high quality and we''re happy with the purchase. Completely.

I think people do need to consider what they are whining about (with regard to saying they want Americans to keep their jobs) and put their words into action. Buying American made can be a challenge, but it''s worth the work.

 

[MoonWater]

Well diamondfan, your response proves to me that you do not wish to make an attempt to understand and therefore this will be my last response to you. Of course Obama couldn't say he was right, that would kill his campaign. But then, no one has to say the man is right in order to say THEY UNDERSTAND. That is something I believe Obama said loud and clear. The man isn't all about hate, yet that's what you keep going on and on about based on what, a clip? C'mon now. That's what's so hilarious when people say "how could he stay there for 20 years" er, because Wright wasn't preaching hate for 20 years. That's why it's important to actually view the sermons.

The Bible also has themes of anger and what I would deem as hatred. The Old Testament makes God look like an angry nutcase for crying out loud. Also, it has been stated several times in this thread alone that there are MANY white preachers that preach hate all the time yet the same outrage has not been expressed toward them in the way it has been expressed against Wright. I mean, you would think the guy was molesting little boys. Oh yeah, something else people don't seem to be as angry about and I think that's far worse (how is it that Rudy Guillani gets to be good buddies with a child molester with no one asking him to denounce and reject?!?!).

And your unwillingness to see exactly what the man said unedited proves that you wish to keep the opinion you formed and keep your mind closed. That is a true shame and exactly what Obama said was the problem. Because we certainly won't be able to "move forward" or "get over it" if people continue to believe and see only what they wish to believe and see. Personally I like to fully educate myself on a person's views before I decide to condemn them.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 3/30/2008 1:30:23 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Just for the record, I am registered unaffilitated. I don''t really see a candidate I want to vote for at this point, either. I don''t trust any politicians, really.

I am not particularly for the government bailing out corporations, but I am also not in favor of them bailing out people who overextended themselves on mortgages, either. Most of the defaults are because people are too ignorant to think about what happens in two years when that adjustable rate rises. The rules for borrowing need to be MUCH stricter. People get into credit card debt on top of the mortgages and just go bankrupt to get out of paying. Personal responsibility needs to be stressed rather than bailing anyone out..that goes for corporations AND individuals, as far as I am concerned.

I do think something has to be done to offer health care to those without health insurance. I just don''t want to see us lose the right to private, employer provided health insurance and medical services in the process.

I am not a socialist and never will be. I''d rather live with the problems of capitalism any day.

I feel the same on these issues.

I think there is a lot to be said for people having to stand on their own. Sure, a government is to support it''s people, but not hold their hands when they make "boo boos." That''s how we learn...

Of course there are worthy causes, and likely all of us would at one time fall into "a cause," but I think the problem comes in when the government makes it too easy for people to rely on the government to get them through, rather than relying on themselves, their families, their support systems. It''s sad really. Back in the day, families and friends and neighbors pulled together when things got hard. Now we tend to run to the local government office, looking for something that way.

I just think families would be more responsible for their members if there wasn''t an easy "out" so readily available.

 

[diamondfan]

Look, I do not know you and you do not know me. I have three children and a busy life and sitting through hours of someone's sermons is not a way I feel I need to spend my time. I have stated that I have heard enough to make a decision I am comfortable with. I have seen multiple clips, not just one, why would you presume I am basing my views on 30 seconds of a clip and nothing else? I do not need to be judged or lectured by you simply because I do not agree 100% with your view, I have a graduate degree and I am a very intelligent person, so if I say, after weeks of this stuff, that I am comfortable in stating that I dislike the overall tenor and tone of Rev. Wright's views, I do not need you to be snippy to me about it. You ASKED and I told you my views, now my views are not valid because to YOU they are not X Y or Z. You feel how you feel, and I have NOT disrespected or threatened you with non response nor intimated in any way shape or form that you are ignorant or closed minded. Nor have I questioned WHY you feel what you feel or demanded that you personally satisfy me as to your level of knowledge on all of Reverend Wright's views. The fact is he said many things that I find offensive and he has repeated them many times. He holds views that I do not support. You disagree, fine, I am not here to compel you to feel otherwise. I would expect the same courtesy from you in this regard. I do not HAVE to agree with you nor do I HAVE to hear every last word uttered by Rev. Wright to make an informed decision. Some of the most savvy political analysts have concurred and I assure you they watched a lot more of his sermons than I. And while the bible contains a lot of contradictory material, and I am do not proclaim to be a biblical scholar, I think overall most spiritual leaders are not up on the pulpit trying to elicit rage from their congregation. And he can rant and preach all he wants, it is a free country, but I do not have to think he is wonderful for what he says. And no, I do not live in a bubble, either.


I stated that while I can understand that many non whites have suffered terribly and that their lives are generally more difficult than a white person's, I am NOT racist and I do not think his mentality and views are held by most people, whatever their race. Rev. Wright is considered to be out of the mainstream for the most part, and even if I can agree to some of the substance of his comments, I do not think his doctrines have general appeal. And I realize WHY Obama had to remove himself, but I also find it a bit hypocritical, personally. Suddenly this pastor is a liability, so even though he sat there for over 290 years and listened, he now wants to distance himself. But does he agree with what his Pastor said? Or does he not? I could not sit and listen to someone who held views so counter to my own, for decades. And please understand that I think Obama is a very bright man, very on the ball, and that I thought his speech was incredible. I also think he will likely be our next President, and hope that he actually makes the "changes" he is alluding to now, and unifies our country in his role as our leader, that it is not all just talk to get elected, which we ALL know happens in politics.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/1/2008 8:00:17 PM
Author: MoonWater
Well diamondfan, your response proves to me that you do not wish to make an attempt to understand and therefore this will be my last response to you. Of course Obama couldn''t say he was right, that would kill his campaign. But then, no one has to say the man is right in order to say THEY UNDERSTAND. That is something I believe Obama said loud and clear. The man isn''t all about hate, yet that''s what you keep going on and on about based on what, a clip? C''mon now. That''s what''s so hilarious when people say ''how could he stay there for 20 years'' er, because Wright wasn''t preaching hate for 20 years. That''s why it''s important to actually view the sermons.

The Bible also has themes of anger and what I would deem as hatred. The Old Testament makes God look like an angry nutcase for crying out loud. Also, it has been stated several times in this thread alone that there are MANY white preachers that preach hate all the time yet the same outrage has not been expressed toward them in the way it has been expressed against Wright. I mean, you would think the guy was molesting little boys. Oh yeah, something else people don''t seem to be as angry about and I think that''s far worse (how is it that Rudy Guillani gets to be good buddies with a child molester with no one asking him to denounce and reject?!?!).

And your unwillingness to see exactly what the man said unedited proves that you wish to keep the opinion you formed and keep your mind closed. That is a true shame and exactly what Obama said was the problem. Because we certainly won''t be able to ''move forward'' or ''get over it'' if people continue to believe and see only what they wish to believe and see. Personally I like to fully educate myself on a person''s views before I decide to condemn them.

Moonwater, I must have missed something. Did someone say that there are no white people who express hate? I haven''t been online for a few days and I''m trying to catch up, but I can''t find where the topic changed and wanted to make sure I saw everything. Of course, there is no way that anyone could say that any race or ethnicity hasn''t at one time (by grouping or by examples of individuals) acted in or expressed hatred toward others.


As to the second segment of your last post that I''ve highlighted, I completely agree. I like to be educated as to why I don''t like a particular view or idea prior to being totally in support of them or in lack of support of them. This is why I came to this thread; I was hoping to find more information on Obama, as at this point, I cannot support him for the reasons already mentioned.