Obama''s Speech....

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 3/28/2008 12:08:35 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 3/28/2008 8:02:20 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly


And deciding someone is ''Right'' because they don''t agree with a Democratic front runner is what ''the Left'' does, too. It''s sad. I don''t have to agree with someone''s views, and not agreeing with them in no ways gives anyone the ability to therefore decide that I must be some radical conservative. I''m not.

But yeah, I''m used to this. If I''m not a totally hardcore liberal who says, ''let''s just throw all the revenues the country has at whatever comes to our minds,'' then I''m a mean, cold-hearted conservative with no soul.

I''ve not said anything mean here directed to anyone, nor have I chosen to try to determine anyone''s standing, and look at what''s being determined about me. It''s really quite sad. But typical.

Wait, don''t stereotype the stereotypers! (I support you fisher - just felt like making a funny).

Yeah, it goes both ways. I''d just like to think people could discuss without making determinations about a person that they have no evidence of. It''s silly and seems to me to be just an easy way out of clearly presenting their reasons and logic.

Back in the day, I would have been hot-headed and upset. I''ve learned, though. People naturally make assumptions. It''s what we do.

 

[movie zombie]

and as heard on terri gross's Fresh Air yesterday: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89236116

all i can say is that unless we address the race issue head on and realistically, we'll never get to the real issue which has to do with class.

movie zombie

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/1/2008 8:16:01 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/1/2008 8:00:17 PM

Author: MoonWater

Well diamondfan, your response proves to me that you do not wish to make an attempt to understand and therefore this will be my last response to you. Of course Obama couldn't say he was right, that would kill his campaign. But then, no one has to say the man is right in order to say THEY UNDERSTAND. That is something I believe Obama said loud and clear. The man isn't all about hate, yet that's what you keep going on and on about based on what, a clip? C'mon now. That's what's so hilarious when people say 'how could he stay there for 20 years' er, because Wright wasn't preaching hate for 20 years. That's why it's important to actually view the sermons.


The Bible also has themes of anger and what I would deem as hatred. The Old Testament makes God look like an angry nutcase for crying out loud. Also, it has been stated several times in this thread alone that there are MANY white preachers that preach hate all the time yet the same outrage has not been expressed toward them in the way it has been expressed against Wright. I mean, you would think the guy was molesting little boys. Oh yeah, something else people don't seem to be as angry about and I think that's far worse (how is it that Rudy Guillani gets to be good buddies with a child molester with no one asking him to denounce and reject?!?!).


And your unwillingness to see exactly what the man said unedited proves that you wish to keep the opinion you formed and keep your mind closed. That is a true shame and exactly what Obama said was the problem. Because we certainly won't be able to 'move forward' or 'get over it' if people continue to believe and see only what they wish to believe and see. Personally I like to fully educate myself on a person's views before I decide to condemn them.

Moonwater, I must have missed something. Did someone say that there are no white people who express hate? I haven't been online for a few days and I'm trying to catch up, but I can't find where the topic changed and wanted to make sure I saw everything. Of course, there is no way that anyone could say that any race or ethnicity hasn't at one time (by grouping or by examples of individuals) acted in or expressed hatred toward others.



As to the second segment of your last post that I've highlighted, I completely agree. I like to be educated as to why I don't like a particular view or idea prior to being totally in support of them or in lack of support of them. This is why I came to this thread; I was hoping to find more information on Obama, as at this point, I cannot support him for the reasons already mentioned.

No, no one said "there are no white people who express hate" and I didn't accuse anyone of such. However, it was pointed out that there is a double standard regarding Rev. Wright versus many white preachers. I notice that people are far quicker to condemn him based on a few clips of a couple sermon as if this is the sum of who he is, but there are many famous white preachers who truly make a living off of spewing hate that people rarely talk about or criticize. They were listed in this thread. I mentioned this because it was said that 'most religious leaders don't spew hate' when in fact some of the most famous in this country actually do. They just happen to be white.

If you really want more info on Obama, I don't think you'll find much of it in a thread which is discussing his speech which essentially means a conversation on race. I can point you in the right direction if you wish, but it will be off this board.

 

[MoonWater]

Another great one movie zombie! That's another thing I believe non-black people don't get about black pride. It's not trying to exclude people, its trying to build the self esteem of a race of people that were torn down their entire lives. I truly believe this is why blacks are racist toward other blacks (too light/too dark), why when you speak well you are accused of "talking white," and why when you do well and get an education you are accused of "acting white." No one wants to see someone else do better because they are afraid they will never be able to do so. It's so depressing.

 

[diamondfan]

Just for the record, I am not in favor of any religious extremism, and I do not think white preachers who try to ignite hatred for anyone from the pulpit or anywhere else are exempt from owning up or being held accountable. Judaism is not a religion that in it''s more mainstream operations functions that way. so I am not used to nor have I ever been exposed to a sermon filled with ire by any religious leader. I am also not a racist or a bigot or against G/L/TG individuals, and am sad to admit that there are many people who are those things. But we were discussing, distinctly, Obama''s speech and the Reverend''s comments. We can talk all day long about the sphere of hate and extremism and mistreatment, but there were specific things being noticed.

 

[movie zombie]

the terri gross interview with the black religious studies professor AND a member of Rev. Wright''s congregation was a real education for me. there is a lot of history re the black church that i just wasn''t aware of and so much of it makes sense in an historical context.

what is clear is that once again, context is everything. the media''s hype of the sound bites that play into racial fears is not an accident.

i was listening to it while driving last night so i''m going to listen to it again.........

movie zombie

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/1/2008 10:49:50 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/1/2008 8:16:01 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/1/2008 8:00:17 PM

Author: MoonWater

Well diamondfan, your response proves to me that you do not wish to make an attempt to understand and therefore this will be my last response to you. Of course Obama couldn''t say he was right, that would kill his campaign. But then, no one has to say the man is right in order to say THEY UNDERSTAND. That is something I believe Obama said loud and clear. The man isn''t all about hate, yet that''s what you keep going on and on about based on what, a clip? C''mon now. That''s what''s so hilarious when people say ''how could he stay there for 20 years'' er, because Wright wasn''t preaching hate for 20 years. That''s why it''s important to actually view the sermons.


The Bible also has themes of anger and what I would deem as hatred. The Old Testament makes God look like an angry nutcase for crying out loud. Also, it has been stated several times in this thread alone that there are MANY white preachers that preach hate all the time yet the same outrage has not been expressed toward them in the way it has been expressed against Wright. I mean, you would think the guy was molesting little boys. Oh yeah, something else people don''t seem to be as angry about and I think that''s far worse (how is it that Rudy Guillani gets to be good buddies with a child molester with no one asking him to denounce and reject?!?!).


And your unwillingness to see exactly what the man said unedited proves that you wish to keep the opinion you formed and keep your mind closed. That is a true shame and exactly what Obama said was the problem. Because we certainly won''t be able to ''move forward'' or ''get over it'' if people continue to believe and see only what they wish to believe and see. Personally I like to fully educate myself on a person''s views before I decide to condemn them.

Moonwater, I must have missed something. Did someone say that there are no white people who express hate? I haven''t been online for a few days and I''m trying to catch up, but I can''t find where the topic changed and wanted to make sure I saw everything. Of course, there is no way that anyone could say that any race or ethnicity hasn''t at one time (by grouping or by examples of individuals) acted in or expressed hatred toward others.



As to the second segment of your last post that I''ve highlighted, I completely agree. I like to be educated as to why I don''t like a particular view or idea prior to being totally in support of them or in lack of support of them. This is why I came to this thread; I was hoping to find more information on Obama, as at this point, I cannot support him for the reasons already mentioned.

No, no one said ''there are no white people who express hate'' and I didn''t accuse anyone of such. However, it was pointed out that there is a double standard regarding Rev. Wright versus many white preachers. I notice that people are far quicker to condemn him based on a few clips of a couple sermon as if this is the sum of who he is, but there are many famous white preachers who truly make a living off of spewing hate that people rarely talk about or criticize. They were listed in this thread. I mentioned this because it was said that ''most religious leaders don''t spew hate'' when in fact some of the most famous in this country actually do. They just happen to be white.

If you really want more info on Obama, I don''t think you''ll find much of it in a thread which is discussing his speech which essentially means a conversation on race. I can point you in the right direction if you wish, but it will be off this board.

This topic has already come from the whole idea of the speeches Obama gives, and I''ve gone to the links suggested earlier. If you don''t feel comfortable with providing the "right direction" here, perhaps you can provide what you think Obama stands for, because the links provided (and I don''t recall if they were provided by you or not now) didn''t reveal anything more than I''d already read, which is still not very solid. At all.

We have veered from the subject at hand many times in this thread, and a great way to come back to it is to hit on why people think Obama has a plan that is a good one.

So, what do people who are supporters of him think he has to offer that will uplift this country and keep to what it was meant to be, what it has come to be?

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/1/2008 10:58:15 PM
Author: diamondfan
Just for the record, I am not in favor of any religious extremism, and I do not think white preachers who try to ignite hatred for anyone from the pulpit or anywhere else are exempt from owning up or being held accountable. Judaism is not a religion that in it''s more mainstream operations functions that way. so I am not used to nor have I ever been exposed to a sermon filled with ire by any religious leader. I am also not a racist or a bigot or against G/L/TG individuals, and am sad to admit that there are many people who are those things. But we were discussing, distinctly, Obama''s speech and the Reverend''s comments. We can talk all day long about the sphere of hate and extremism and mistreatment, but there were specific things being noticed.

I agree, Diamondfan. Unfortunately, there are "bad apples" in every barrel. Still, if one were to look at the whole picture, there are far more good things that come from religious leaders than there are negative, particularly depending upon the religion which is being reviewed.

 

[diamondfan]

Fisher, I do agree with that, and think religion serves a vital part in connecting people, whatever their individual beliefs, to a larger whole. In any sector of life there are those who are inept, bad, misuse their power, etc. And for the most part I assume most religious leaders want to inspire through other means and bring out the best traits in those who are part of their congregations. That does not mean every last person who is a pastor or minister or rabbi is coming for the best place or operates with the best of intentions.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/2/2008 6:54:27 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

This topic has already come from the whole idea of the speeches Obama gives, and I've gone to the links suggested earlier. If you don't feel comfortable with providing the 'right direction' here, perhaps you can provide what you think Obama stands for, because the links provided (and I don't recall if they were provided by you or not now) didn't reveal anything more than I'd already read, which is still not very solid. At all.


We have veered from the subject at hand many times in this thread, and a great way to come back to it is to hit on why people think Obama has a plan that is a good one.


So, what do people who are supporters of him think he has to offer that will uplift this country and keep to what it was meant to be, what it has come to be?

I never said I don't feel comfortable with the right direction here, I simply said where I would point you would be off this board (you know, like the links I provided before). There are certainly a host of other message boards that focus on politics which I think would be more informative. I don't exactly come here to discuss politics, however I thought the speech, and race relations in generally, are extremely important.

Also, I'm pretty sure I gave some of my reasons for supporting Obama and it gave a good indication of what he stands for. However, if you'd like me to answer more questions I will after you answer mine. I replied to two of your posts a couple pages back that you never responded to. I though that was the beginning of our dialog on Obama but when you didn't respond I figured you didn't want to have one.

Holla.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

I have not seen any questions directed to me by you that I have not responded to, other than who Obama is linked to that leads me to believe he''s not got the best of intentions of America as it stands today in mind. That''s a matter of just reviewing the information available regarding his past choices of comrades and affiliates, which does in fact matter.

Upon again reviewing this thread, I found this excerpt from a post of yours on page 2.

The key things that I completely and utterly agree with Obama on:
*A more transparent government that we can better hold accountable: Coburn-Obama Transparency Act and For the Act itself
*Restoring Habeas Corpus: Floor Statement on the Habeas Corpus Amendment
*Minimizing the influence of lobbyists and special interest groups in Washington, something I think he''s proven to be committed to based on how he has financed his campaign.

I am absolutely in favor of lobbyists and special interest groups not having the power they currently hold in the matter of politics (and numerous other areas) for their own agendas. I think it is a really pathetic excuse of a republic when most people in the United States rely only on the information provided by the media as a means of their information gathering when it comes to a decision as big as choosing the "leader" of the country. Media can say they are not biased, but they are, and they too are led around by special interests. That is why in this era it is so important for people to find their own information, from those who are not funded by special interests. A lot is to be said of a candidate who doesn''t allow special interest groups to finance their campaigns, because with that funding comes expectations of looking out for their interests, when a leader''s goal should always be to look out for the best interests of the people who choose that leader in the beginning. Whether or not I fully support a candidate''s platform, I do respect a candidate that doesn''t resort to funding from special interests. It''s commendable, to say the least. However, I have read information to the contrary regarding Obama (regarding contributions from Morgan and other banks, which noteably have their own agendas, without a doubt).

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/2/2008 11:28:24 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly
I have not seen any questions directed to me by you that I have not responded to, other than who Obama is linked to that leads me to believe he's not got the best of intentions of America as it stands today in mind. That's a matter of just reviewing the information available regarding his past choices of comrades and affiliates, which does in fact matter.

I never said it didn't matter, I asked you to tell me what makes you believe he is anti-America. I'm still wondering.

Upon again reviewing this thread, I found this excerpt from a post of yours on page 2.


The key things that I completely and utterly agree with Obama on:

*A more transparent government that we can better hold accountable: Coburn-Obama Transparency Act and For the Act itself

*Restoring Habeas Corpus: Floor Statement on the Habeas Corpus Amendment

*Minimizing the influence of lobbyists and special interest groups in Washington, something I think he's proven to be committed to based on how he has financed his campaign.


I am absolutely in favor of lobbyists and special interest groups not having the power they currently hold in the matter of politics (and numerous other areas) for their own agendas. I think it is a really pathetic excuse of a republic when most people in the United States rely only on the information provided by the media as a means of their information gathering when it comes to a decision as big as choosing the 'leader' of the country. Media can say they are not biased, but they are, and they too are led around by special interests. That is why in this era it is so important for people to find their own information, from those who are not funded by special interests. A lot is to be said of a candidate who doesn't allow special interest groups to finance their campaigns, because with that funding comes expectations of looking out for their interests, when a leader's goal should always be to look out for the best interests of the people who choose that leader in the beginning. Whether or not I fully support a candidate's platform, I do respect a candidate that doesn't resort to funding from special interests. It's commendable, to say the least. However, I have read information to the contrary regarding Obama (regarding contributions from Morgan and other banks, which noteably have their own agendas, without a doubt).

Obama has taken some funding from lobbyists, just not federal lobbyists. However, it doesn't diminish his decision to be funded mostly by the people. I believe it's about 90 percent small donors which have funded his campaign. He certainly didn't have to do that. Additionally, I think the other two items I provided are extremely important. I for one have been complaining for years about where my tax dollars go. I would love to be able to keep track of government spending. Especially since we keep going deeper into debt. I'm not sure why the citizens of this country didn't demand this ages ago.

 

[movie zombie]

oh, widget, look what your post admiring obama''s speech has morphed into!!!!! and i''m not even sure i''ll vote for the man.....but i do think his speech was inspiring. in fact, its the most inspiring thing i''ve heard in a long while.

movie zombie

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 12:00:08 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/2/2008 11:28:24 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

I have not seen any questions directed to me by you that I have not responded to, other than who Obama is linked to that leads me to believe he's not got the best of intentions of America as it stands today in mind. That's a matter of just reviewing the information available regarding his past choices of comrades and affiliates, which does in fact matter.

I never said it didn't matter, I asked you to tell me what makes you believe he is anti-America. I'm still wondering.

Upon again reviewing this thread, I found this excerpt from a post of yours on page 2.


The key things that I completely and utterly agree with Obama on:





*A more transparent government that we can better hold accountable: Coburn-Obama Transparency Act and For the Act itself

*Restoring Habeas Corpus: Floor Statement on the Habeas Corpus Amendment

*Minimizing the influence of lobbyists and special interest groups in Washington, something I think he's proven to be committed to based on how he has financed his campaign.


I am absolutely in favor of lobbyists and special interest groups not having the power they currently hold in the matter of politics (and numerous other areas) for their own agendas. I think it is a really pathetic excuse of a republic when most people in the United States rely only on the information provided by the media as a means of their information gathering when it comes to a decision as big as choosing the 'leader' of the country. Media can say they are not biased, but they are, and they too are led around by special interests. That is why in this era it is so important for people to find their own information, from those who are not funded by special interests. A lot is to be said of a candidate who doesn't allow special interest groups to finance their campaigns, because with that funding comes expectations of looking out for their interests, when a leader's goal should always be to look out for the best interests of the people who choose that leader in the beginning. Whether or not I fully support a candidate's platform, I do respect a candidate that doesn't resort to funding from special interests. It's commendable, to say the least. However, I have read information to the contrary regarding Obama (regarding contributions from Morgan and other banks, which noteably have their own agendas, without a doubt).

Obama has taken some funding from lobbyists, just not federal lobbyists. However, it doesn't diminish his decision to be funded mostly by the people. I believe it's about 90 percent small donors which have funded his campaign. He certainly didn't have to do that. Additionally, I think the other two items I provided are extremely important. I for one have been complaining for years about where my tax dollars go. I would love to be able to keep track of government spending. Especially since we keep going deeper into debt. I'm not sure why the citizens of this country didn't demand this ages ago.

If you agree that it does matter as to whom a leader calls upon as a comrade, then I wonder why you ask how I would deduce that Obama doesn't stand for the America that I love. Okay, firstly, the man seems to have an issue with the country's flag, which is random, I admit, but still doesn't sit well with me when choosing the main leader of this country. When asked about this, he stated that his patriotism is shown by telling Americans what he thinks will make this country great. Um, okay. That's a profound statement. So, what does he think will make this country great?

I'm not saying that not acknowledging the American flag makes a person "anti-American." I don't believe that at all. It's more a matter of a lot of things, culminating together. Some people say anyone against the war is "anti-Amercia;" I disagree. I'm anti-the-war-going-on-this-long, anti-the-reason-we-remain-there-for-seven-years, but not anti-the soldiers who are there, doing their job (even if they don't support why they are there themselves). I think the Wright issue has already been addressed, and I'm sorry, but he has been a member for far too long to say he didn't know anything about the literal crap that was being spewed by that church, and that is a HUGE issue (and by the way, not a black/white issue).

I think his wife has made ridiculous comments regarding this country, and I'm sorry, but who in this country would say the things she does? It's ridiculous, and maybe a spouse shouldn't be a reflection of a candidate, but they are. We all know how influential spouses are, particularly in political offices (think back to the first go round with Clinton!).

I'm proud of America and proud to be an American, without Obama's change. He needs to be careful of the comments he makes. If he's not proud of America as it stands, fine. But he's not about to be anyone I support for being a leader of this country. Even when my country doesn't stand for EVERYTHING which I stand for, I'm still DANG proud to be a citizen of this country, and I defy anyone to state a better place to live. I mean, denouncing the great parts of this country in order to speak of "change" that is nothing more than spouting off randomness to a crowd of cheers, without expressing any true plans is ridiculous. Every country has issues, but USA is still by far, the only place I'd want to live.

Anyway, the heart of it for me is that I cannot support a man who was a member of Wright's church for years. Okay, he was a MEMBER and of course he heard comments that were "controversial." Um, more than controversial. And he can state over and over that he didn't agree with comments made, as everyone who attends a church hears at times. I've never been to a church that expresses that sort of hatred, and if I ever did, I sure wouldn't be a member of it and not wait to withdrawl from the connection to that church at such time that my affiliation that that person became a "hot spot."

In addition, Jesse Jackson, Jr. has also made ridiculous comments and I'm sorry, but Obama just has so many racially charged people who are his supporters and affiliates, who have been such for YEARS. I don't think the "change" he is seeking is anything of benefit to this country. At all.

And I'm not making it a race issue. I think it should be nothing of the sort. His affiliates have done so. Time and time again.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

I agree that "transparency" is a good idea, but again, I see far too few details as to how this will be done based on the Transparency Act as it stands at this point. Further, I believe a leader who seeks LESS spending is key to not only figuring out where the spending is going, but to decreasing the depth of the nation''s debt.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 12:05:32 AM
Author: movie zombie
oh, widget, look what your post admiring obama''s speech has morphed into!!!!! and i''m not even sure i''ll vote for the man.....but i do think his speech was inspiring. in fact, its the most inspiring thing i''ve heard in a long while.

movie zombie

Inspiring is one thing, but knowing what the man actually supports is another.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

The other thing that really annoys me and makes me think Obama must think the nation is made up of morons is based on the little information he provides regarding the "change" he seeks. I've yet to find solid information regarding his plans, propositions, and the like. "A better America" is wonderful, but what does it mean to this man?

If he won't provide the information for himself, one is much more apt to fall upon the comments made by those he is affiliated with.

I firmly believe that media chooses who is president, based on the information they provide on candidates. The media time Obama gets has been filled with "change" and hope for a better America, with little depth of what this would consist of. Unfortunately, the candidate best suited (in my opinion) to meet the needs of America isnt' a top tier candidate, received very little media, and was even excluded from some of the debates that were aired on TV. It's a shame that a man who won't support the special interest groups can't be heard for what he truly stands for, which was America, and not just the propanda that generates "buzz."

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 4/3/2008 12:55:34 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 12:05:32 AM
Author: movie zombie
oh, widget, look what your post admiring obama''s speech has morphed into!!!!! and i''m not even sure i''ll vote for the man.....but i do think his speech was inspiring. in fact, its the most inspiring thing i''ve heard in a long while.

movie zombie

Inspiring is one thing, but knowing what the man actually supports is another.

fish, that is your opinion only.....and you''re entitled to it. you don''t actually know for sure what he supports, but you have an opinion. again, you''re entitled to it.

please don''t put down my opinion for finding his speech inspiring. and for the record, i''m not supporting obama.

movie zombie

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 1:57:03 AM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 4/3/2008 12:55:34 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 12:05:32 AM
Author: movie zombie
oh, widget, look what your post admiring obama''s speech has morphed into!!!!! and i''m not even sure i''ll vote for the man.....but i do think his speech was inspiring. in fact, its the most inspiring thing i''ve heard in a long while.

movie zombie

Inspiring is one thing, but knowing what the man actually supports is another.

fish, that is your opinion only.....and you''re entitled to it. you don''t actually know for sure what he supports, but you have an opinion. again, you''re entitled to it.

please don''t put down my opinion for finding his speech inspiring. and for the record, i''m not supporting obama.

movie zombie

I have put down nothing. I don''t go that route. I have never said the man isn''t an inspirational, motivational man. To the contrary, he is. If you feel as though I have "put you down," I''m sorry. I''ve done nothing of the sort.

However, it is not my "opinion" that there is a difference between knowing what a person supports and whether or not a person is inspiring. There is a complete and total difference between the two.

You''re right, I don''t know what he supports on tons of issues; not for lack of trying to find out. "Change" is enough for some people, but not enough for me.

Definition of opinion from Miriam-Webster:

Main Entry: opin·ion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpin-yən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
Date: 14th century
1 a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b: approval, esteem
2 a: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b: a generally held view
3 a: a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b: the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based


Many people don''t know what constitutes an "opinion" these days. What I have stated above is not an opinion. My opinion is that he will not make a good president. It is not my opinion that there is a difference between being motivational/inspirational and letting the people know what you are in support of. That''s just a clearly defined difference in terms.

*
I do think that being a communicative person who is capable of making good speeches is important to Americans in general. High charisma is very appealing. I''m not stating, nor have I ever stated, that Obama isn''t doing these things. I just would like to hear some of his actual plans put into those speeches. When a person states that a speech was really good, or really inspirational, but can''t define anything regarding a person''s platform, that is something that speaks highly of a person''s charisma, because they don''t have go deeper when people are just hearing the message of "change" without much more behind it.

This isn''t stating anything negative about anyone. It''s just stating what is, what has been, and probably what will continue.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 12:54:18 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly
If you agree that it does matter as to whom a leader calls upon as a comrade, then I wonder why you ask how I would deduce that Obama doesn't stand for the America that I love. Okay, firstly, the man seems to have an issue with the country's flag, which is random, I admit, but still doesn't sit well with me when choosing the main leader of this country. When asked about this, he stated that his patriotism is shown by telling Americans what he thinks will make this country great. Um, okay. That's a profound statement. So, what does he think will make this country great?

I'm still wondering how you believe Obama doesn't stand for "the America that you love" but maybe that's because I have no idea "what America" it is that you love. I'm utterly confused. The America I love allows freedom of speech, expression, and religion. I'm not a huge fan of the flag either, hell, I don't do the pledge or national anthem. Here is something I wrote in another thread on this board: "When I was 12 years old I officially stopped singing the national anthem and doing the pledge of allegiance. By highschool I caught a lot of flack from teachers and school administration but stood my ground. My 9th grade English teacher forced me to write a paper about why I wouldn't pledge or otherwise face punishment. I thought it was quite rude that other kids could cite religious beliefs for not pledging but I couldn't cite a simple disbelief in the pledge. However, after writing the paper my teacher honored my request not to stand up and pledge. My reason? I do not believe in the pledge of allegiance. As a young black female I did not feel the country honored the words. I said that the day that the country truly became one nation with liberty and justice for all, I would proudly stand. I still do not believe the country has done this and I still don't pledge or sing the national anthem. I do not believe that the lack of me doing so makes me any less American. Nor do I think it should be a qualification for the leader of the country. The job of the leader should be to make sure this country lives up to its words, i.e. the pledge and the Constitution."

I'm not saying that not acknowledging the American flag makes a person 'anti-American.' I don't believe that at all. It's more a matter of a lot of things, culminating together. Some people say anyone against the war is 'anti-Amercia;' I disagree. I'm anti-the-war-going-on-this-long, anti-the-reason-we-remain-there-for-seven-years, but not anti-the soldiers who are there, doing their job (even if they don't support why they are there themselves). I think the Wright issue has already been addressed, and I'm sorry, but he has been a member for far too long to say he didn't know anything about the literal crap that was being spewed by that church, and that is a HUGE issue (and by the way, not a black/white issue).

See that's the thing, is IS a black/white issue. Many African-Americans don't take the whole flag and patriotism thing as seriously as most white people. It has A LOT to do with our history in this country. It has A LOT to do with the hypocrisy of this country's words v. this country's action. And I'm still trying to figure out why people are flipping out over the Wright thing because no one has yet offered me what it is that he said which was anti-America. Was it "God Damn America?" Did anyone read the commentary about that sermon and what was said before and after? Probably not. Or was it something else I'm unaware of? This is why I ask questions of people that claim Obama stands for something when I've seen absolutely no proof of such. It just seems like a rehash of old rumors. Btw, did you read the great Tim Wise article posted about Obama and Wright. It's quite thorough and IMO right on target. Here you are: http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/NationalLies.html

I think his wife has made ridiculous comments regarding this country, and I'm sorry, but who in this country would say the things she does? It's ridiculous, and maybe a spouse shouldn't be a reflection of a candidate, but they are. We all know how influential spouses are, particularly in political offices (think back to the first go round with Clinton!).

Oh really, what ridiculous comments did she make? I don't want to assume what you're referring to, again, maybe you know something I don't. But I seriously hope you are not talking about when she said something along the lines of, 'it's the first time in my adult lifetime that I am really proud of my country.' Because I, as a black female, knew EXACTLY what she meant and felt there was nothing anti-patriotic about it. Not to mention the word "really" is a qualifier everyone chose to ignore. You are talking about a woman who has work with some of the poorest folks in this country. Someone who has, along with her husband, turned down extremely lucrative jobs in order to help people less fortunately than themselves. Maybe she's proud because the country is finally, in her 44 years, trying to give the country back to the people. But that's just my guess, if you aren't talking about this instance, feel free fill me in.

I'm proud of America and proud to be an American, without Obama's change.

I'm happy for you.

He needs to be careful of the comments he makes. If he's not proud of America as it stands, fine. But he's not about to be anyone I support for being a leader of this country. Even when my country doesn't stand for EVERYTHING which I stand for, I'm still DANG proud to be a citizen of this country, and I defy anyone to state a better place to live. I mean, denouncing the great parts of this country in order to speak of 'change' that is nothing more than spouting off randomness to a crowd of cheers, without expressing any true plans is ridiculous. Every country has issues, but USA is still by far, the only place I'd want to live.

Ok, now what on Earth are you talking about? This is why I ask for examples and NOT opinions because you are losing me. What great parts of this country did he denounce? And Obama seems to be extremely proud of America so again, I'm not sure where you are getting this. Or are you basing this on your opinion of Wright and Michelle (which I still think doesn't prove they aren't proud), in which case, I'm not sure why Obama can't have a different feeling toward this country, based on his own personal experiences in life, that are different than Michelle's and Wrights. They certainly each grew up differently. The great thing though, is that you get to learn about and appreciate the experience of others when you don't shut them out of your life over a few comments you disagree with. I have friends and family members that have strong opinions I don't agree with. I've kept them around for 20 years or more, and no one would dare say I shared those particular views.

Anyway, the heart of it for me is that I cannot support a man who was a member of Wright's church for years. Okay, he was a MEMBER and of course he heard comments that were 'controversial.' Um, more than controversial. And he can state over and over that he didn't agree with comments made, as everyone who attends a church hears at times. I've never been to a church that expresses that sort of hatred, and if I ever did, I sure wouldn't be a member of it and not wait to withdrawl from the connection to that church at such time that my affiliation that that person became a 'hot spot.'

Here comes that black/white issue again. I don't think he spewed hatred. But again, I'll ask you what comments from Wright are you referring to. I would love to have some quotations, maybe it's something I haven't heard/read. I also don't think its a safe assumption to assume that a member of a church has heard every single sermon. I think it's quite easy to be aware of how Wright feels about things without hearing him present them in that way. I certainly wasn't shocked by it but then I grew up in a black inner city neighborhood. Also, to my knowledge, Obama hasn't withdrawn his connection from the church. Nor has he withdrawn his connection from his friend. He stood by his beliefs, even when it was inconvenient to do so, and tried to discuss why Wright felt this way which has a lot to do with his race and his generation. But people want to pretend to be colorblind as if race has nothing to do with it.

In addition, Jesse Jackson, Jr. has also made ridiculous comments and I'm sorry, but Obama just has so many racially charged people who are his supporters and affiliates, who have been such for YEARS. I don't think the 'change' he is seeking is anything of benefit to this country. At all.

So you are basing all of your opinions of Obama on his surrogates?

And I'm not making it a race issue. I think it should be nothing of the sort. His affiliates have done so. Time and time again.

But you don't need to make it a race issue, because it IS a race issue. That's the problem. People pretending race has nothing to do with it, when if they would realize that race and racism are a LARGE part of Wright's opinions (and I wouldn't doubt Michelle's either going to a "good" school where she was in the minority), they could probably pause, understand the man's view IN CONTEXT and get over it.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 12:55:05 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly
I agree that ''transparency'' is a good idea, but again, I see far too few details as to how this will be done based on the Transparency Act as it stands at this point. Further, I believe a leader who seeks LESS spending is key to not only figuring out where the spending is going, but to decreasing the depth of the nation''s debt.

But what is less spending if you have no idea where the money goes? Everyone wants health insurance but it costs money. Perhaps if we knew what programs our government was funding that were absurd, or how much elected officials were spending on dinners, or trips around the country/world, we could spend less in areas where we need to spend less, and spend more in areas that benefits ALL of us. Clinton spent less with Welfare Reform, left a lot of unfortunate families out to dry (not everyone is abusing the system and you certainly shouldn''t screw over those in need due to a few abusers). But Clinton also wasted plenty of money and time going after his accusers (with Hillary''s help) and it turns out, those accusers weren''t even lying!!

If you don''t think Obama''s Act will work, maybe you could help him out and suggest ways for him to improve it. It''s certainly the first step I''ve seen to allow us to keep track and hold our government accountable.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 8:07:17 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly
I do think that being a communicative person who is capable of making good speeches is important to Americans in general. High charisma is very appealing. I'm not stating, nor have I ever stated, that Obama isn't doing these things. I just would like to hear some of his actual plans put into those speeches. When a person states that a speech was really good, or really inspirational, but can't define anything regarding a person's platform, that is something that speaks highly of a person's charisma, because they don't have go deeper when people are just hearing the message of 'change' without much more behind it.


This isn't stating anything negative about anyone. It's just stating what is, what has been, and probably what will continue.

Well not everyone wants plans in speeches, I know I don't I think it's boring. Also, there are plenty of politicians with supporters that don't know jack about their policies, it's not something only Obama suffers from. Personally, I love this Obama supporter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kica8hmSdAM

 

[surfgirl]

MoonWater, that post of yours, third up from the above, is SO on point. I just want to applaud you for laying out what is wrong with the country. And why what both Obama and his wife have said about this country doesn't make them "less American" or "anti American" in any way. Hell, I'm totally mortified and embarrassed to admit I'm American when I'm overseas. In fact, right now I'm in Uganda working on an HIV/AIDS strategy that is desperately in need of revamping...Why? Because George Bush and his regime have inflicted untold horror on this country by basically forcing them to NOT talk about or provide condoms (tying the financial assistance to only include programs that promote abstinence or being faithful, neither of which is realistic in the local context) in a country that had one of the world's worst HIV rates, but was able to turn things around by implementing the best HIV/AIDS approaches and whose HIV infection rates dropped dramatically because of all the excellent prevention work and condom promotion that was done in the late 80's until 2000. Before Bush, Uganda's HIV story was a global showcase of success. After Bush, total mess. Imagine how "patriotic" it feels to SEE - in person - people DYING from AIDS needlessly because the very programs that were creating amazing, wonderful change were stopped by OUR wonderful, amazing, American government. That's why I too, feel that any change will be good for this country.

But aside from that Fisher, I really dont understand your raging posts because although you have every right to your own opinion no matter what it might be, honestly, if we could say the right things to you so that you could see why we felt Obama was the best candidate right now, I really dont think it would matter one bit because you clearly stated in the beginning of this thread that you were clearly anti-choice. So for that reason alone, would you really, honestly, ever vote for a Democrat or even a Republican who was anti-choice? Because if the answer is no, then what's the point of even posting about all of this? I'm really genuinely curious...

 

[coatimundi_org]

Fisherofmengirly,

Lemme guess, Ron Paul's your guy, right? That's what I've gleaned from your posts so far. (though, you won't come out and say it.)

One of the reasons you seem to dislike Obama is because of certain people who support him.

We all know that political candidates cannot control what is said by others or who supports them.

Ron Paul is a good example of this. He has a very large Neo Nazi/White Supremacist following which he has denounced. If you follow your own logic about Obama and his "controversial supporters," can't you apply the same to Ron Paul?

And the issue about the flag?

Isn't this country about the freedom to choose to do whatever we desire?

It's a free country, "ain't" it?

You're talking about taking away freedoms. Not holding them intact. Very anti-American.

That is, if Ron Paul's your guy.

 

[LAJennifer]

My husband and I are thinking of relocating to Chicago - so I sometimes check out real estate and newspapers to see what is going on. Today, I came across this article http://www.suntimes.com/lifestyles/health/875048,CST-NWS-hosp03.article . It is about a possible closing of a hospital that can no longer cover operating costs - and I quote from the article:

"Half of its emergency room patients and one of every four patients admitted to the hospital either have no health insurance or are covered by Medicaid, SSM said. Platt said Medicaid reimbursement levels in Illinois haven''t been increased in 15 years.
"Most of the people without insurance cannot afford to pay us anything, and Medicaid pays us less than what it costs us to provide care," Ryan said. "No hospital can survive over the long term without being able to cover its costs."

Since Obama represents Illinois, I looked on his site to see what he has to say about the subject (from http://obama.senate.gov/issues/health_care/ ):

"Medicaid is the nation''s health safety net. Over 53 million Americans of all ages, including 2 million Illinoisans, rely on Medicaid for their health care. As a member of the Senate''s Medicaid Working Group, Senator Obama will continue the fight to strengthen Medicaid, as well as help providers who care for large numbers of poor and uninsured patients."

 

[MoonWater]

Surfgirl, would you mind me asking what you do for a living (or rather why you are in Uganda)? It sounds as if you get exposed to a lot more than just American culture. I feel like people, likely in your field, or in Sociology or Anthropology have a very different view about American pride.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 4/3/2008 6:02:54 PM
Author: MoonWater

Surfgirl, would you mind me asking what you do for a living (or rather why you are in Uganda)? It sounds as if you get exposed to a lot more than just American culture. I feel like people, likely in your field, or in Sociology or Anthropology have a very different view about American pride.

I believe Fisher is a social worker of some sort.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 6:17:21 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/3/2008 6:02:54 PM
Author: MoonWater


Surfgirl, would you mind me asking what you do for a living (or rather why you are in Uganda)? It sounds as if you get exposed to a lot more than just American culture. I feel like people, likely in your field, or in Sociology or Anthropology have a very different view about American pride.

I believe Fisher is a social worker of some sort.

Ok, but I''m talking about a Sociology degree, not a Social Work degree.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 4/3/2008 6:53:30 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 6:17:21 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/3/2008 6:02:54 PM
Author: MoonWater



Surfgirl, would you mind me asking what you do for a living (or rather why you are in Uganda)? It sounds as if you get exposed to a lot more than just American culture. I feel like people, likely in your field, or in Sociology or Anthropology have a very different view about American pride.

I believe Fisher is a social worker of some sort.

Ok, but I''m talking about a Sociology degree, not a Social Work degree.

I was a Sociology major for a while - I eventually switched my major - but the Sociology classes were my favorite.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 2:59:36 PM
Author: coatimundi
Fisherofmengirly,

Lemme guess, Ron Paul''s your guy, right? That''s what I''ve gleaned from your posts so far. (though, you won''t come out and say it.)

One of the reasons you seem to dislike Obama is because of certain people who support him.

We all know that political candidates cannot control what is said by others or who supports them.

Ron Paul is a good example of this. He has a very large Neo Nazi/White Supremacist following which he has denounced. If you follow your own logic about Obama and his ''controversial supporters,'' can''t you apply the same to Ron Paul?

And the issue about the flag?

Isn''t this country about the freedom to choose to do whatever we desire?

It''s a free country, ''ain''t'' it?

You''re talking about taking away freedoms. Not holding them intact. Very anti-American.

That is, if Ron Paul''s your guy.

That is the very typical response to what makes America great, yes. We do have the choice to choose many things. However, a president ought to be held to higher standards, I certainly hope you agree with that.