Older GIA certification

[WinkHPD]

HI Adom,
By all means, use whatever you feel comfortable doing in selection.
I have nothing but respect for Wink.
That we feel differently does not change that.
His post started with the words "In my opinion"
That's the key here.
There are knowledgeable people in the field that have different opinions.
I have shown 60/60 stones that would not earn AGS Ideal cut grade being selected by real life consumers many times over AGSL 0 Cut graded diamonds. Or stones that had an ASET image that would get knocked here on PS being selected verus others with "good" aset images- and the selection was based on looking at actual diamonds. We don't have "jewelry store lighting" in my office- just normal lights, like you'd have in any office.
When looking at stones using ASET IS, and your eyes, it may ( or may not) be enlightening. The tools are not intuitive to use- unless one buys into the sales pitch about what the ASET/IS are supposed to look like.

While Wink mentioned "Steep Deep"- he did not mention "spready stones" which can look larger than some "ideal cut" stones of the same weight.
This increased spread can often be a deciding factor to buyers. Especially if they view the differences in sparkle and life as subtle, and opinion based- as opposed to night and day differences.

But since you'll be looking in real life, you can see these things for yourself. Please report back!!

Agreed, they can look stunning under the klieg lights, but the lack of sparkle under more subtle lighting makes them worse than Steep Deeps to me. There are a few spready stones that can look pretty good, but I have never seen one that looked as good, to me, as a properly cut diamond. It costs more to make them correctly, which is why so many cutters like to make them varying degrees of not correctly, to put a few extra dollars in their pockets. This is especially true around the magic numbers, like 1.00 carats.

Wink

P.S. David is correct about this, he and I have long ago agreed to disagree and have always been friends. That is one of the beauties of this business, compete hard all day and when we have the rare chance to be together in the evenings, the arguments continue over dinner and a drink.

Or three.

 

[adom]

RockDiamond & Wink - I appreciate both your insights and i truly appreciate your willingness to share them. And I find I learn more when everyone does not just sit around agreeing. So thank you!

Sorry I am asking so many questions and some of them may come across dumb, but it is important that I catch on fast.

Wink, If I am primarily offered GIA, can I use those HCA and Cut class tool to possibly find GIA certified stones that equate to AGSL ideal? And IYO, would that be a logical approach?

RockDiamond - IYO, what would be the negatives to a spready stone and before I came to PS, that might have been the direction I would have looked. If I did go that direction, are these spready stones still GIA excellent? Or do they drop into another grade due to the spread? Also, I am likely going to be under those "everything looks great" spotslights. How to I compensate for that?

Lastly, do I order those IS and ASET scopes? If I do it, I'd like to get the order out tonight. I am willing to spend the money but I don't want to just waste money.

(man you guys are fast! - you add new information before I get to the previous - wow!!)

I promise full updates and details at a later time. I am being cautious as the recipient spends a lot of time on the internet and you never know.

 

[kenny]

adom, if you spent 10 years reading PS (like I have) you'd also take only Wink's advice.
... Wink Wink! Nudge Nudge!

HCA are IS are bullet-proof tools for finding a well-cut diamond.
Reject HCAs over 2.0 but then get IS pic for those under 2.0.
Post IS pic here for feedback or compare to this chart:

http://ideal-scope.com/reference-chart-ideal-scope-images/



Pros with 30 years of experience may not need them and those two tools may reject a few that pros with 30 years of experience would not reject.
So what!?!
You and I are not pros with 30 years of experience.
AND it may mean certain stones in certain vendor's inventory don't sell.
Oh Boo Hoo for that vendor.
Frankly I don't care!
Don't stock crappy diamonds then this would not be a problem.

I REALLY don't trust advice from vendors who poopoo cut tools.
It makes me suspicious of the cut quality of the diamonds they stock.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Adom,
The term "spready" is kind of generic, like the term "great light performance"
AS I mentioned, I share a lot with Wink.
Yet we do have different experience sets- which may be part of why we see things a bit differently on this issue.
For example, I have seen many stones that spread noticeably larger than an "ideal" cut, yet gave away nothing in terms of light performance.
Now, the light performance was unquestionably different, but I would not say better.
The stone below , for example, had a "disorganized" aset- which would surely get knocked here.
Yet in person, the stone truly gave nothing away in terms of beauty, sparkle, or life.
It was a GIA EX cut grade.
It would get knocked here because it falls outside of the PS ideal of light performance.
I agree that some GIA EX stones are not to my liking - this was NOT one of those.



It was a 4ct stone, SI clarity and cost a lot of money.
Small differences in light performance that will be seen as "different" as opposed to "better" are, in many cases, far less important that other aspects of the stone, and purchase.
Put another way, would you spend $10k more for a stone that claimed better light performance, yet was noticeably smaller in diameter?
The considerations- and actual light performance- of a 1ct stone are totally different.

Please don't mistake this as a knock on AGSL Ideal Cut Round diamonds- many people will agree with my friend Wink.
my point is: choose with your eyes, instead of being guided by marketing hype....or forum members with some sort of grudge.....

 

[adom]

Ok, so here is my plan. In order to keep my options open:

I will ask for 2 – 3 comparable diamonds at a time. Limiting what I am provided to GIA EX and AGSL ID. This will allow me to see both scenarios described.

Like everyone says, even when they disagree, I will start by what I see. Ie color preferences and eye clean.

I just ordered the IS, ASET, light box and calibration cz. Hey, its only money, right? After, if I want, I can give them to the local kindergarten to play with.

I am going to keep all these terrific suggestions in mind and we’ll see what happens. Maybe there is going to be nothing worthwhile at the show and the stone will be an internet purchase. Next, I am going to concentrate of reviewing online sources and then finding stones for consideration.

Things in my “kit”:
- loupe 10x
- 4 prong pick up tool
- mini scale (it goes to .1 g – worthless???)
- micrometer (match stone to certificate)
- IdealScope
- Aset scope
- IS/ASET light box
- Calibration stone
- IS reference chart
- IPhone
o GIA report check site
o AGSL report check site
o PriceScope - diamond searches
o PriceScope – HCA
o PriceScope – Diamond Grading tool
o Thinking for single month subscription to Rapnet as well (thoughts?)

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="Wink|

Wink

P.S. David is correct about this, he and I have long ago agreed to disagree and have always been friends. That is one of the beauties of this business, compete hard all day and when we have the rare chance to be together in the evenings, the arguments continue over dinner and a drink.

Or three.[/quote]



And after 3 drinks even "pancake stones" will look like DYNAMITE!...

 

[Dancing Fire]

RockDiamond - IYO, what would be the negatives to a spready stone and before I came to PS, that might have been the direction I would have looked. If I did go that direction, are these spready stones still GIA excellent? Or do they drop into another grade due to the spread? Also, I am likely going to be under those "everything looks great" spotslights. How to I compensate for that?

Lastly, do I order those IS and ASET scopes? If I do it, I'd like to get the order out tonight. I am willing to spend the money but I don't want to just waste money.

Not a waste of money. You can always send it to Rockdiamond and he'll use it as a "shot glass"...

 

[denverappraiser]

o Thinking for single month subscription to Rapnet as well (thoughts?)

Interesting list.

This seems to be a new item to the conversation. I don't think Rap will sell you a single month subscription but I'm curious, what would be useful about this even if they will?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Ok, so here is my plan. In order to keep my options open:

I will ask for 2 – 3 comparable diamonds at a time. Limiting what I am provided to GIA EX and AGSL ID. This will allow me to see both scenarios described.
I'd also look at GIA VG, and AGSL 1 ( the grade below 0, or Ideal) There are cases where the downgrade is due to things you can not see with the naked eye, yet such aspects can really lower the price.

Like everyone says, even when they disagree, I will start by what I see. Ie color preferences and eye clean.

I just ordered the IS, ASET, light box and calibration cz. Hey, its only money, right? After, if I want, I can give them to the local kindergarten to play with.
The tools are incredibly cool.They do provide useful information- much of the debate is about how to interpret what they are telling us

I am going to keep all these terrific suggestions in mind and we’ll see what happens. Maybe there is going to be nothing worthwhile at the show and the stone will be an internet purchase. Next, I am going to concentrate of reviewing online sources and then finding stones for consideration.

Things in my “kit”:
- loupe 10x
- 4 prong pick up tool
- mini scale (it goes to .1 g – worthless???) Don't waste your money on a cheap scale- they suck. A usable diamond scale would start at around $1000- and you don't need it
- micrometer (match stone to certificate) Again, a quality tool will cost a couple of hundred dollars and unless you plan to be measuring a lot of stones, save your money- many jewelers have these tools- use theirs
- IdealScope
- Aset scope
- IS/ASET light box
- Calibration stone
- IS reference chart
- IPhone
o GIA report check site
o AGSL report check site
o PriceScope - diamond searches
o PriceScope – HCA
o PriceScope – Diamond Grading tool
o Thinking for single month subscription to Rapnet as well (thoughts?)I agree with Neil- if they'd even sell a membership to a consumer, which I don't think they will do

To me a significant portion of your attention should be on who you're buying this diamond from. The cheapest way to buy is online, from one of the sellers offering minimal services. If you choose a seller with more service- such as a place that actually stocks diamonds, you will likely pay a bit more- but the extra money may be well spent.

 

[Rockdiamond]

[quote="Wink|

Wink

P.S. David is correct about this, he and I have long ago agreed to disagree and have always been friends. That is one of the beauties of this business, compete hard all day and when we have the rare chance to be together in the evenings, the arguments continue over dinner and a drink.

Or three.

And after 3 drinks even "pancake stones" will look like DYNAMITE!... [/quote]

So true- and after the fourth drink I can sell you a branded cushion that looks half the size and cost twice as much as a well cut crushed ice stone

 

[pyramid]

I have been here a long time and have bought ideal branded diamonds and when I was new ere or even for a year or two, I believed what I read literally. I do like crushed ice radiant cuts too.

I just want to say that Rock diamond knows what he speaks about on here too and has a lot of customers some who have posted pictures of beautiful diamond which looked huge and who spoke of his stellar customer service and some wouldn't shop anywhere else.

So like the newspapers don't believe everything, do your research, just like a SI1 is plenty for lots, so is a bigger diamond for the same money. This forum is made up of mostly people who promote cut, cut is easy to promote online, takes a bit of learning and not so popular with most offline jewellers some which are big names too, they want you to trust them so don't give instruction. You don't get educated in most fields e.g. electrician, dentist, surgeon but they do. I mean reflector technology is easy to show on a computer and explains more than a jewellers window but loses the sparkle under lights which tempt most people. I love reflector technology too.

Both online and Bricks and Mortar jewellers are good and some are businesses with both.

If you are new check out what Rock diamond has too, you never know he is right in the Carat weight for spread and you may actually prefer that. Everyone likes different, I like high color but no lower than VS. Cut is just that too and especially if after seeing ideal cut diamonds you still prefer another shape for spread.

 

[adom]

Hey all, sorry – crazy day!

Denverappraiser – So on the Rappaport site, they offer 1 year and by the month Rapnet subscriptions. Up front, they do not mention if the by-the-month requires as minimum numbers of months. I’d have to check into that. How would I use it? I thought I saw that the Rapnet has stone listings, including the associated % back. I assume that is the wholesale number which I would not be due, but I assume that give me some sort of price comparison guide like the Rap report but maybe even better. And I am certain that I can buy a single week Rap Report.

RockDiamond – Thanks for clarifying that your philosophy would include GIA VG and AGSL 1. Who knows how and if I’ll get to utilize the IS and ASET but I’d rather to chose to not use something I have than wish that I had something that I do not. It will be interesting. The scale – I owned it and yes it is cheap so I’ll leave it home. Micrometer, due to hobbies I am two available to me at no cost, but like you say, maybe I’ll leave it home and use theirs. Rapnet, my thoughts are above. I am curious what feedback I will get.

Pyramid – You suggest I look at RockDiamond’s stones but no where here is there a link or name.

All and all this is an interesting journey and I appreciate everyone’s input. Thanks!

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Adom,
I just called Rap, and indeed, a consumer can buy a membership that includes a monthly magazine, including the Rap list- but not the trading platform- interesting!

AS far as the tools- they are relatively easy to use, in an informal sense.
That is to say, looking at a stone in an ASET is easy- photographing it is another story.
In terms of what you're going to find out there, in the real world:
Unless a jeweler is an AGS member, they are unlikely to know what these tools are, and how they work.
AGS stores are generally finer stores- or at least they were when I was traveling on the road selling diamonds. Before the internet.
Finer stones are likely to carry finer goods.
BUT- there area also fine stores that are not AGS members- and they may use a totally different method in selecting their diamonds, which does not include reflector technology.
That, in and of itself, is not conclusive proof that they don't carry well cut diamonds.
Stores that don't use the technology may also show scorn for the technology.
At the end of the day, GIA and AGS are both brands, so you'll find some brand loyalty and prejudice following the loyalty.


as a general note- trade members are allowed to have a single active link in their signature.

 

[WinkHPD]

HI Adom,
The term "spready" is kind of generic, like the term "great light performance"
AS I mentioned, I share a lot with Wink.
Yet we do have different experience sets- which may be part of why we see things a bit differently on this issue.
For example, I have seen many stones that spread noticeably larger than an "ideal" cut, yet gave away nothing in terms of light performance.
Now, the light performance was unquestionably different, but I would not say better.
The stone below , for example, had a "disorganized" aset- which would surely get knocked here.
Yet in person, the stone truly gave nothing away in terms of beauty, sparkle, or life.
It was a GIA EX cut grade.
It would get knocked here because it falls outside of the PS ideal of light performance.
I agree that some GIA EX stones are not to my liking - this was NOT one of those.



It was a 4ct stone, SI clarity and cost a lot of money.
Small differences in light performance that will be seen as "different" as opposed to "better" are, in many cases, far less important that other aspects of the stone, and purchase.
Put another way, would you spend $10k more for a stone that claimed better light performance, yet was noticeably smaller in diameter?
The considerations- and actual light performance- of a 1ct stone are totally different.

Please don't mistake this as a knock on AGSL Ideal Cut Round diamonds- many people will agree with my friend Wink.
my point is: choose with your eyes, instead of being guided by marketing hype....or forum members with some sort of grudge.....

I have been very busy today and am just now getting to take a look at this thread again.

Rock, this is a typical diamond that will look good in bright lights and will noticeably shrink in more normal lighting situations. What I do with my clients when they are looking at diamonds is to put the diamond in a three or four prong holder and let them walk around with them into multiple lighting situations. This diamond has so much visible leakage around the edges (you can see the back ground color leaking through) that I know it is going to fair poorly in lower light situations. It was cut spready, probably to maintain the 4 ct weight, whereas if it had been cut for maximum brilliance and beauty it should have been smaller but so much more beautiful. It would most likely have been much lower than 4 carats, and because of that likely to be less expensive, yet still a better value.

In low light, the better cut diamond probably looks as big or bigger than the larger diamond as it will still have edge to edge brilliance.

I have one of the sample boxes that Garry Holloway had made some years ago, with a stone that is the size of an eighty point diamond cut properly, and a poorly cut 1 carat that actually measures a little larger than the eighty point diamond. (It is a steep/deep) In strong light, both stones look good and about the same size. In low light that big stone visibly shrinks and looks much smaller than the well cut smaller stone. Cutting is king, and were you asking me which I would prefer, it would be the better cut diamond, EVERY time. In spite of being more expensive, it would still be the better value. It simply costs more to cut a diamond properly. It costs more to plan it, it costs more to cut it and inspect it each step of the way, and it "wastes" more rough to take away the fat that will destroy the brilliance and beauty of the diamond.

Companies that want to swindle cut a diamond to maintain a key weight, such as a 3 ct versus a 2.7 ct or so properly cut diamond or a 2 ct versus a 1.80 ct, etc, CAN PAY MORE FOR THE ROUGH AND SELL IT FOR MORE THAN A PROPERLY CUT DIAMOND THAT IS SMALLER THAN THE "MAGIC" WEIGHT. It makes it hard for the companies that want to cut the diamond properly to obtain the rough as they are always out bid for those diamonds by the companies that want to swindle cut them with extra fat to make the weight.

Twenty or thirty years from now, when some of those diamonds with their GIA EX cut grades come back into the market from estates, I am of the belief that the cut grading scale for GIA EX will have been changed to be more realistic and those GIA EX Steep Deeps will no longer qualify for the EX cut grade. Then what will their value be???

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Hey all, sorry – crazy day!

Denverappraiser – So on the Rappaport site, they offer 1 year and by the month Rapnet subscriptions. Up front, they do not mention if the by-the-month requires as minimum numbers of months. I’d have to check into that. How would I use it? I thought I saw that the Rapnet has stone listings, including the associated % back. I assume that is the wholesale number which I would not be due, but I assume that give me some sort of price comparison guide like the Rap report but maybe even better. And I am certain that I can buy a single week Rap Report.

The problem with Rap as a consumer tool is that it provides a single number per carat for a shape/color/clarity/weight. Take, for example, a 1.00-1.05/G/VS1/round/GIA. In the database here there are over 1000 stones that meet that spec (use the search utility at the top of the page if you haven't already found it). They range from $4274 to $11385. That's a factor of 3, and that's with a bunch of price competitive dealers! The range would be even bigger if you included what people are asking at the mall or in the tourist traps. Rap is $8600 on every one of them.

What do you conclude from that? How would you use Rap to decide which is a bargain and which is overpriced? There are obviously other issues present, and it's possible to winnow that down a bit with a variety of strategies, but how has knowing Rap helped in the slightest?

 

[WinkHPD]

[quote="Wink|

Wink

P.S. David is correct about this, he and I have long ago agreed to disagree and have always been friends. That is one of the beauties of this business, compete hard all day and when we have the rare chance to be together in the evenings, the arguments continue over dinner and a drink.

Or three.

And after 3 drinks even "pancake stones" will look like DYNAMITE!... [/quote]

LOL, that is way too true. Only once did I ever buy a gem after a few drinks. It was not nearly as pretty in the morning. Thank goodness it was only a fifteen dollar a carat dark blue aquamarine. (unusual color and only 2 carats back in 1971 or 2 while I was translating for some American rough buyers whose normal translator could not travel with them that year. We traveled to some very out of the way places in Minas Gerais (the state of general mines), Brasil. It was a great trip. One of the MANY things I learned was never to buy after drinking, unless I had selected the gem earlier and wanted to negotiate down to a smaller price after putting a bottle of Johnny Walker on the table while we bargained. (I paid three dollars a bottle for it at the Embassy PX and it sold for $35 on the Brasilian open market.)

Wink

 

[adom]

I'll remember that advice. No pocket flask!

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="denverappraiser

The problem with Rap as a consumer tool is that it provides a single number per carat for a shape/color/clarity/weight. Take, for example, a 1.00-1.05/G/VS1/round/GIA. In the database here there are over 1000 stones that meet that spec (use the search utility at the top of the page if you haven't already found it). They range from $4274 to $11385. That's a factor of 3, and that's with a bunch of price competitive dealers! The range would be even bigger if you included what people are asking at the mall or in the tourist traps. Rap is $8600 on every one of them.

What do you conclude from that? How would you use Rap to decide which is a bargain and which is overpriced? There are obviously other issues present, and it's possible to winnow that down a bit with a variety of strategies, but how has knowing Rap helped in the slightest?[/quote]


Easy, I'll pick a GIA XXX or a AGS 0 cut at 15% back of Rap...

 

[adom]

Wow, turns out there were a lot more responses than the drinking one. My bad!

Ok…..

RockDiamond – Nice of you to check on what I could buy from RAP. Notice I have yet to rush into that purchase. Interesting comments on ASET and store differences and such. In case I have not mentioned it above, as I currently understand it, the hope is to find the stone at a gem show. This is part of why I am thinking I am putting together a “kit”. Bring my own stuff and be able to compare apples to apples as we go around. Lastly, so where are theses active links. Don’t see them or am I just dumb?

Wink – Great description of stone cut behaviors. I did see a very interesting youtube demonstration of two similar diameter stones in bright vs low light. One ot the stones shrank measurably. It was shocking. How do you replicate that in a setting that will have lights everywhere!

Denverappraiser – Maybe the demo I saw utilized the trading platform that won’t be available to me. It was a search page that showed individual stones and something about their prices and % back for that particular stone. Was that the platform? Can you tell me how you might approach making sure that a diamond you were considering buying was at a fair price. Do I want to “cheat” a seller? Never. But I don’t want to get robbed either. This is so different from ordinary daily shopping. ☹

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI All,
Wink- We happened to have AGSL000 stones that were part of the comparison. For viewing: we have some very bright areas as well as dark areas here in the office- and the client looked at the stones all over.
The stone I posted, which as I said- won't look great on ASET- looked very good in real life. In low lighting the stone performed comparably to the AGSL000 posted below of the same color and clarity.
One of the areas that you and I will not agree on is leakage, and it's benefits, and detriments.
Regardless, these stones were destined to be earrings- and as such there's different considerations in terms of what might be considered optimal light performance as compared to a stone which is going to be set into a ring.

This is one of the AGSL 000 stones. More PS friendly. But it was by no means super ideal. Even with AGSL000 there's variation.


You can see the smaller table ( 57%+-) in the picture. The two stones I've posted in this thread were within .02ct of each other, and both were in the 4.10+- ct range
The first stone, which I posted earlier in the thread had a 60%+- table- and spread 10.25mm average, while this stone, 000 AGSL spread 10.10mm average
These were each part of a matching pair, and when yu looked at a pair of 10.25's vs a pair of 10.1's the difference in size was noticeable. If we take the entire project into consideration, the greater spread came into play.
The client chose the larger pair. I can't say she was wrong. She wanted well cut- but super ideal was not something requested. More about bang for the buck
If it was for an engagement ring and she wanted a perfect cut, obviously I would not suggest any of these stones.
Again- the scope of the project, and purpose of the diamonds come into play.
Sacrificing a 2% difference in cut to get better size color and or clarity is sometimes a better choice in some cases

 

[WinkHPD]

Wow, turns out there were a lot more responses than the drinking one. My bad!

Ok…..

RockDiamond – Nice of you to check on what I could buy from RAP. Notice I have yet to rush into that purchase. Interesting comments on ASET and store differences and such. In case I have not mentioned it above, as I currently understand it, the hope is to find the stone at a gem show. This is part of why I am thinking I am putting together a “kit”. Bring my own stuff and be able to compare apples to apples as we go around. Lastly, so where are theses active links. Don’t see them or am I just dumb?

Wink – Great description of stone cut behaviors. I did see a very interesting youtube demonstration of two similar diameter stones in bright vs low light. One ot the stones shrank measurably. It was shocking. How do you replicate that in a setting that will have lights everywhere!

Denverappraiser – Maybe the demo I saw utilized the trading platform that won’t be available to me. It was a search page that showed individual stones and something about their prices and % back for that particular stone. Was that the platform? Can you tell me how you might approach making sure that a diamond you were considering buying was at a fair price. Do I want to “cheat” a seller? Never. But I don’t want to get robbed either. This is so different from ordinary daily shopping. ☹

One way is to simply hold your hand between the diamonds and the lights. This is especially effective holding two diamonds close together at one time. The shadow of your hand will instantly disclose the good light, bad light perception. Another is to step into a corner with the diamond held just in front of you. Your shoulders will block most of the light and the less well cut stone will clearly show up as not so well cut. (Unless both are equally well or poorly cut of course.)

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Easy, I'll pick a GIA XXX or a AGS 0 cut at 15% back of Rap...

I'm not sure if you're kidding or not but I'll assume not since this is the logic that is normally used.

420 of those 1047 stones are GIA/xxx. About half of THOSE are 15% back or more from Rap.

The next step would be, presumably, to filter based on fluorescence, HCA, dealer preferences, price, or some other criteria. My point is that knowing Rap has added nothing. Filtering directly from the 420 based on the other criteria will yield exactly the same results. The price that matters is the comparative price to those other 419 stones and other offers from different sources. Those are actual offers on actual stones. That's not just vastly more useful information for the task at hand, it's completely trumps the theoretical answer that's provided by Rap.

 

[denverappraiser]

Denverappraiser – Maybe the demo I saw utilized the trading platform that won’t be available to me. It was a search page that showed individual stones and something about their prices and % back for that particular stone. Was that the platform? Can you tell me how you might approach making sure that a diamond you were considering buying was at a fair price. Do I want to “cheat” a seller? Never. But I don’t want to get robbed either. This is so different from ordinary daily shopping. ☹

Adom. The demo you saw was probably for Rapnet, a service offered by the same people. It's really pretty similar to the shopping engine here on Pricescope, and actually involves many of the same stones, with a key difference. You can't shop there. It's not just that Rap won't sell you the datafeed, the dealers who are advertising there won't sell to you anyway. If they wanted to be selling to consumers and dealing with consumer type questions, they would be advertising elsewhere. Here for example. What you would gain by seeing that feed would be a glimpse at dealer cost on certain stones (many of the 'virtual' stones you see are listed there but far from all of them are) but that's about it. How would this help? More specifically, how would it help more than the feed here where you're looking at actual competitive offers?

 

[WinkHPD]

HI All,
Wink- We happened to have AGSL000 stones that were part of the comparison. For viewing: we have some very bright areas as well as dark areas here in the office- and the client looked at the stones all over.
The stone I posted, which as I said- won't look great on ASET- looked very good in real life. In low lighting the stone performed comparably to the AGSL000 posted below of the same color and clarity.
One of the areas that you and I will not agree on is leakage, and it's benefits, and detriments.
Regardless, these stones were destined to be earrings- and as such there's different considerations in terms of what might be considered optimal light performance as compared to a stone which is going to be set into a ring.

This is one of the AGSL 000 stones. More PS friendly. But it was by no means super ideal. Even with AGSL000 there's variation.


You can see the smaller table ( 57%+-) in the picture. The two stones I've posted in this thread were within .02ct of each other, and both were in the 4.10+- ct range
The first stone, which I posted earlier in the thread had a 60%+- table- and spread 10.25mm average, while this stone, 000 AGSL spread 10.10mm average
These were each part of a matching pair, and when yu looked at a pair of 10.25's vs a pair of 10.1's the difference in size was noticeable. If we take the entire project into consideration, the greater spread came into play.
The client chose the larger pair. I can't say she was wrong. She wanted well cut- but super ideal was not something requested. More about bang for the buck
If it was for an engagement ring and she wanted a perfect cut, obviously I would not suggest any of these stones.
Again- the scope of the project, and purpose of the diamonds come into play.
Sacrificing a 2% difference in cut to get better size color and or clarity is sometimes a better choice in some cases

David,

I did not see the stones and do not know the numbers, but I will always acknowledge that AGS has some combinations that I do not agree with that are possible to receive AGS 0 cut grade. On the whole the AGS cut grade is vastly superior and more reliable than GIA EX. As for the exceptions, I do not buy, or sell, those either.

I have chosen in my business to be extremely snarky about what I will and will not sell. I could sell more, and much more easily if I did not kick so many pretty stones to the door, but then I would not be as proud of the diamonds that I do sell. It is my JOY and my MISSION in life to preach the gospel of fantastic cutting to all who will listen. When you preach to me the gospel of "good enough" it falls on deaf ears. Even if, as it appears in this case, it was what your customer wanted.

Good enough does not mean bad, just not worthy of the buy back and trade up policies that the top cut quality houses are able and willing to offer, since they know that their diamonds will always have the value to honor those policies.

I got my GG in 1975 and diamonds like I sell today were not even made then. I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have been in the industry while the great cutting revolution took place. The cutting changes forced the light scientists to study what was happening in the diamonds to understand why some diamonds looked so much better than others, and that research led to even more development in the quality of the cutting.

That the large cutters do not wish to make those changes is not at all surprising, after all, by cutting to heavier parameters a rough crystal can yield up to 6% or more than it would yield if cut to maximize beauty. With the artificial price bonuses that are paid for tiny increases of weight at certain sizes, it is no wonder that proper cutting is ignored by all but the most dedicated to absolute beauty. The financial payoffs are HUGE.

That is why there are 64,192 diamonds listed this morning on Rap.net from 1.00 ct to 1.05 ct and only 1,881 from 0.95 to 0.99. If I add only the barest of qualifiers to the search by asking for diamonds with 53 - 58 tables and 60 - 62 depths there are 5,413 diamonds in the 1.00 to 1.05 cts and ONLY 211 from 0.95 to 0.99. The other 1,670 0.95 to 0.99 ct diamonds were also cut for max weight and still could not make the magic number. (Only diamonds with AGS and GIA reports were searched for in all searches.)

To me this is a STUNNING revelation as to the horrible cutting that is used to meet or slightly exceed the magic one carat mark. With the first search I was seeing diamonds with 66% depths with only a cursory look at the list.

Sigh. Sorry. I get easily worked up when I see "stuff" like that listed for sale to the trade, knowing that it will soon be offered to anyone in the public without the knowledge to say, "Bye Bozo, I am going elsewhere with my money!"

Are there pretty diamonds that are good enough? I am sure there are. I just don't sell them or revel in them. One of the rewards for working hard enough to be successful is being able to sell only the very best and letting someone else have the sales that are not quite as well cut. It is working for me.

Wink

 

[adom]

denverappraiser - I promise that I never assumed I could purchase from the Rapnet. I was just assuming that having the numbers (that is is not clear if I would see anyhow) would help me sort out whether a diamond under consideration is at an appropriate price. Unlike online, I get the impression that buying diamonds in person is a lot like buying a car. The seller starts at a number that is not the lowest number they will actually sell the stone at. I find that stressful and confusing. (I hate buying cars for that reason) I hate questioning a person's price so I feel like I need a way to gauge whether is is appropriate for me to question the price rather than badgering some poor vendor who is actually selling at a good price. Hopefully you see what I am struggling to figure out and if you have any thoughts of your own to share that would be great.

Wink and Rock Diamond - I am enjoying your discussions.

Dancing Fire - Are you suggesting that if I had a Rapsheet or Rapnet that you would consider 15% back a solid price for all top diamonds? Or was that only for that specific diamond description? How would you handle any other? i.e. H, slightly larger, eye clean VS2/SI1

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You don't need Rapnet. Your best bet is what Neil already mentioned. Use the Diamond Search tool here under Resources and it shows you quotes for the same stone from multiple vendors at the lowest retail prices you are likely to find. You can match specs very well. In house stones are selected for a jeweler's inventory and those often are superior stones such as H&A that do carry a price premium, yet they are still usually much lower than typical brick and mortar stores for similar branded type diamonds.

Some people may enjoy your way of doing this, but I found it was SO much easier to just buy from the vendors here. Choose diamond, then order, comes in a few days.

 

[adom]

diamond seeker - Those are guidelines I can follow.

 

[chrono]

You don't need Rapnet. Your best bet is what Neil already mentioned. Use the Diamond Search tool here under Resources and it shows you quotes for the same stone from multiple vendors at the lowest retail prices you are likely to find. You can match specs very well. In house stones are selected for a jeweler's inventory and those often are superior stones such as H&A that do carry a price premium, yet they are still usually much lower than typical brick and mortar stores for similar branded type diamonds.

Some people may enjoy your way of doing this, but I found it was SO much easier to just buy from the vendors here. Choose diamond, then order, comes in a few days.

And it'll be so much less of a headache too. No need to buy an ASET and IS viewer, RAP subscription and etc. Just about all the recommended vendors here offer IS and ASET images for their in-house diamonds.

 

[denverappraiser]

denverappraiser - I promise that I never assumed I could purchase from the Rapnet. I was just assuming that having the numbers (that is is not clear if I would see anyhow) would help me sort out whether a diamond under consideration is at an appropriate price. Unlike online, I get the impression that buying diamonds in person is a lot like buying a car. The seller starts at a number that is not the lowest number they will actually sell the stone at. I find that stressful and confusing. (I hate buying cars for that reason) I hate questioning a person's price so I feel like I need a way to gauge whether is is appropriate for me to question the price rather than badgering some poor vendor who is actually selling at a good price. Hopefully you see what I am struggling to figure out and if you have any thoughts of your own to share that would be great.

Wink and Rock Diamond - I am enjoying your discussions.

Dancing Fire - Are you suggesting that if I had a Rapsheet or Rapnet that you would consider 15% back a solid price for all top diamonds? Or was that only for that specific diamond description? How would you handle any other? i.e. H, slightly larger, eye clean VS2/SI1

Choose your dealer first.

Use their good council, as well as that of others, to come up with a set of specs. Reconcile their advice with the advice of others, like this forum, and feel free to ask questions that you already know the answer to as a test or as a BS filter.

Have them use those specs and see what they have or can come up with.

Enter those specs into the online database here and see what comparable stones cost. If it's significantly different, go back to the dealer with the ad in hand and ask why theirs costs more. It likely will, and that's ok, an in person deal is worth more to many people. What's being negotiated here is how much more.

Pass on any deal that has to be done NOW, but do be aware that you are not the only customer and this does allow the possibility that a particular stone will be sold to someone else. It's ok. There are a lot of diamonds out there and there are no outrageous bargains.

Repeat the above as often as necessary.

If you find the dealer is misleading you, don't just pass on the subject stone, pass on the dealer.

Insist on the ability to have it appraised by YOUR independent expert and the ability to return it within some reasonable amount of time and in undamaged condition for a full refund. You should be allowed a return for any reason and they should have no vote in who your appraiser will be. Naturally, I would you suggest you actually go through with this, but even if you're don't, it's a huge red flag if the dealer won't allow it.

Use a credit card.

Read the terms and conditions carefully.

 

[adom]

Nice thorough guidelines for face to face dealings. I am putting together online options to have in case face-to-face does not pan out.

You mention credit card. So would you not advise the online "bank wire" or "cashier check" options and in person, I assume you would reject "cash" or "cashier check" better prices. Is this due to reduce risk of fraud??