One of the best padparadscha info I found.

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:33:04 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/13/2010 5:23:34 AM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/12/2010 8:03:10 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/12/2010 12:46:28 AM

Author: zeolite

TL: Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation. I disagree; here’s why:

The shield cut padparadscha on the right of the composite picture is my 0.94ct gem. Keen observers will note it is slightly more saturated and deeper in tone than I have shown before. The color is as accurate as I can get it in Photoshop, while illuminating it with GE Reveal incandescent bulbs. But while the tone and the pinkish orange color are correct, the color saturation is higher in the actual gem, and it is more beautiful than my picture shows. That is why I say that tone and color can match, yet the gem can still posses more or less saturation in that same equal tone and color.

Mr. Zeolite,

On the upper and lower echelons of the tone scale, where a gem is either very very light, or very very dark in tone, it simply cannot be too saturated because levels of extinction (too dark in tone) or lack of color (too light in tone) simply cannot make for a vivid gem. Even the GIA gemset will not have vivid saturation for the upper and lower tones in this gemewizard example. In the mid tiers of tone, there can be vivid saturation. I consider your gem to be within those mid tiers of tone, and that''s why you are able to see more saturation to your eye.

Tourmaline lover, Nice graphic on tone and saturation. As I said above some hues will add more tone than others. Since we are discussing padparadschas. Could you please post a similar graphic for those hues.

Perhaps CMW you could give us the benefit of your experience? Rather than continually challenging TL (which you seem to be doing with frequency) you could do some research and find a graphic you would prefer everybody to see that you feel is more appropriate?

If I seem to be challenging TL with frequency. My motives are to help weed out i what I see as inaccurate info. I know a lot of times some state their opinion as fact as I somrtimes do. In those instances please correct me. Do you have a problem with this?

I know most of us have read this already but for those who have not. Here is a worthy read from Richard Hughes. Scroll down to the part about padparadscha.

http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/ruby_sapphire_borders.htm

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:25:49 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

CMW,
Both brown and grey are modifiers of saturation. Stones on the cool side tend to have grey as a modifier, and stones on the warm side tend to have brown as a modifier. Since padparadschas have a warm hue, red-orange, they would have brown as a modifier.

http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Color_grading

Then perhaps LMHC should rewrite their definition. I am just taking what they have written literaly. Brown is a hue. Isn''t it?

 

[T L]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:29:45 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/13/2010 7:33:04 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/13/2010 5:23:34 AM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/12/2010 8:03:10 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/12/2010 12:46:28 AM

Author: zeolite

TL: Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation. I disagree; here’s why:

The shield cut padparadscha on the right of the composite picture is my 0.94ct gem. Keen observers will note it is slightly more saturated and deeper in tone than I have shown before. The color is as accurate as I can get it in Photoshop, while illuminating it with GE Reveal incandescent bulbs. But while the tone and the pinkish orange color are correct, the color saturation is higher in the actual gem, and it is more beautiful than my picture shows. That is why I say that tone and color can match, yet the gem can still posses more or less saturation in that same equal tone and color.

Mr. Zeolite,

On the upper and lower echelons of the tone scale, where a gem is either very very light, or very very dark in tone, it simply cannot be too saturated because levels of extinction (too dark in tone) or lack of color (too light in tone) simply cannot make for a vivid gem. Even the GIA gemset will not have vivid saturation for the upper and lower tones in this gemewizard example. In the mid tiers of tone, there can be vivid saturation. I consider your gem to be within those mid tiers of tone, and that''s why you are able to see more saturation to your eye.

Tourmaline lover, Nice graphic on tone and saturation. As I said above some hues will add more tone than others. Since we are discussing padparadschas. Could you please post a similar graphic for those hues.

Perhaps CMW you could give us the benefit of your experience? Rather than continually challenging TL (which you seem to be doing with frequency) you could do some research and find a graphic you would prefer everybody to see that you feel is more appropriate?

If I seem to be challenging TL with frequency. My motives are to help weed out i what I see as inaccurate info. I know a lot of times some state their opinion as fact as I somrtimes do. In those instances please correct me. Do you have a problem with this?

I know most of us have read this already but for those who have not. Here is a worthy read from Richard Hughes. Scroll down to the part about padparadscha.

http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/ruby_sapphire_borders.htm

So far, I don''t believe I gave any inaccurate info in this particular thread, and if you see inaccurate info, why don''t you correct me and cite your sources? Instead, you keep asking questions. I don''t always give accurate information, such as the iron chromophore blue spinel debate, but in this particular thread, to my knowledge, I have not given inaccurate info.

 

[T L]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:33:55 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/13/2010 7:25:49 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover




CMW,
Both brown and grey are modifiers of saturation. Stones on the cool side tend to have grey as a modifier, and stones on the warm side tend to have brown as a modifier. Since padparadschas have a warm hue, red-orange, they would have brown as a modifier.

http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Color_grading

Then perhaps LMHC should rewrite their definition. I am just taking what they have written literaly. Brown is a hue. Isn't it?

I'm unsure what you mean by your question is brown a hue, can you please clarify? Brown is a modifier, by definition based on GIA color grading. There are 31 hues in the GIA grading system, and brown is not one of them, neither is grey. They are modifiers. If you think about it, how can you have vivid brown color? Brown can only increase and decrease in tone, not saturation.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:45:18 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/13/2010 7:33:55 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/13/2010 7:25:49 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover






CMW,
Both brown and grey are modifiers of saturation. Stones on the cool side tend to have grey as a modifier, and stones on the warm side tend to have brown as a modifier. Since padparadschas have a warm hue, red-orange, they would have brown as a modifier.

http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Color_grading

Then perhaps LMHC should rewrite their definition. I am just taking what they have written literaly. Brown is a hue. Isn't it?

I'm unsure what you mean by your question is brown a hue, can you please clarify? Brown is a modifier, by definition based on GIA color grading. There are 31 hues in the GIA grading system, and brown is not one of them, neither is grey. They are modifiers. If you think about it, how can you have vivid brown color? Brown can only increase and decrease in tone, not saturation.

Will you please tell my "brown" zircon that.

 

[colormyworld]

I am pretty sure that black and white are the only non colors.

 

[T L]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:51:28 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/13/2010 7:45:18 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/13/2010 7:33:55 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/13/2010 7:25:49 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover








CMW,
Both brown and grey are modifiers of saturation. Stones on the cool side tend to have grey as a modifier, and stones on the warm side tend to have brown as a modifier. Since padparadschas have a warm hue, red-orange, they would have brown as a modifier.

http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Color_grading

Then perhaps LMHC should rewrite their definition. I am just taking what they have written literaly. Brown is a hue. Isn't it?

I'm unsure what you mean by your question is brown a hue, can you please clarify? Brown is a modifier, by definition based on GIA color grading. There are 31 hues in the GIA grading system, and brown is not one of them, neither is grey. They are modifiers. If you think about it, how can you have vivid brown color? Brown can only increase and decrease in tone, not saturation.

Will you please tell my 'brown' zircon that.

There are stones that are completely brown and grey, and according to the GIA, they would probably be classified as devoid of a color in the sense that these colors, brown and grey, are not hues.

 

[T L]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:53:17 PM
Author: colormyworld
I am pretty sure that black and white are the only non colors.

You are sure of that, but please remember, I am going by the GIA color grading system. I can tell you that brown and grey are colors, some people might think black is a color, but in this particular case, I am going by the GIA.

CMW
This padparadscha thread is going off on a tangent. You might want to open a new thread on the GIA color grading system. Just a helpful suggestion if you want more information about this from others as well.

 

[Barrett]

I state my opinions as fact many times...and I expect others to come in and give me their opinions and/or give me the correct info if i am wrong..would rather be corrected by someone on here or another forum than go around for however long giving or stating the wrong info on something which i thought was fact or truth..Richard M, zeo, chrono, TL , LD, harriet and many others on here have corrected me in the past and/or gave info that changed my way of thinking or helped me understand something as fact..it''s really the duty of whoever to do that. sorry broke rank but wanted to add to CMW post about trying to weed out the inaccurate info..sometimes it sounds combative but in reality it''s not it''s trying to get to the right answer

 

[T L]

Date: 4/13/2010 8:10:28 PM
Author: amethystguy
I state my opinions as fact many times...and I expect others to come in and give me their opinions and/or give me the correct info if i am wrong..would rather be corrected by someone on here or another forum than go around for however long giving or stating the wrong info on something which i thought was fact or truth..Richard M, zeo, chrono, TL , LD, harriet and many others on here have corrected me in the past and/or gave info that changed my way of thinking or helped me understand something as fact..it''s really the duty of whoever to do that. sorry broke rank but wanted to add to CMW post about trying to weed out the inaccurate info..sometimes it sounds combative but in reality it''s not it''s trying to get to the right answer

Amguy,
CMW is not correcting me though. He is asking me a series of questions. If I am absolutely wrong about something in this thread or any others, then tell me what I am exactly wrong about and cite your source if applicable. I don''t mind being corrected. I just don''t understand his line of questioning in this particular case, unless he''s unsure as well, and trying to get me to cite sources, which I try to do. So far, he has not told me what I am inaccurate about, only what he thinks/speculates, in this particular thread.

 

[colormyworld]

CMW
"This padparadscha thread is going off on a tangent."

 

[LD]

Date: 4/13/2010 8:23:29 PM
Author: colormyworld
CMW
''This padparadscha thread is going off on a tangent.''

Is this helpful? You''re continually "picking" at TL''s words and comments. It''s not constructive or interesting. It''s boring and very very very tiresome.

 

[chrono]

CMW,
The LMHC paper states that “it must be a subtle mixture of pinkish orange to orangey pink with pastel tones and low to medium saturation”. The part with the light tone is easy to understand. I define the low to medium saturation as that it cannot be vividly coloured and therefore probably shows varying degrees of brown. I interpret the first dotted point of “no colour modifier other than pink or orange” as that it cannot show any hints of blue, lavender, yellow, and etc.

This newsletter was released way back in 2005 but I think might explain why a pastel orange pink sapphire is deemed a padparadscha yet a very beautifully coloured vivid orange pink sapphire isn’t.
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfspring05.html#2
Quote:
The definition of padparadscha sapphires has become a matter of debate within the gemstone trade since the discovery of orange brown sapphires in Africa about 25 years ago. A true padparadscha must display a combination of both orange and pink colors. These colors should blend so that it is difficult to see where the pink stops and the orange begins. Others say the orange and pink should mix proportionately and favor the pink. Dealers with goods from new sources want to expand the definition, as having this name brings a price premium. You can get a great deal more if a stone is labeled padparadscha vs. orangish brown sapphire. Traditionalists want to keep the definition limited to a few gemstones to keep the stones rare and valuable.

 

[T L]

Chrono,
Thanks for the information. That's one of the reasons I don't care for marketing names. They can be abused in order to retrieve a higher premium on a stone that ordinarily wouldn't be worth that much.

 

[Barrett]

hmm..sort of like "imperial topaz" for common yellows and golds..from ouro preto

 

[T L]

paraiba tourmaline

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/14/2010 3:03:22 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/13/2010 8:23:29 PM

Author: colormyworld

CMW

''This padparadscha thread is going off on a tangent.''

Is this helpful? You''re continually ''picking'' at TL''s words and comments. It''s not constructive or interesting. It''s boring and very very very tiresome.

I do not like wasting my time. If I had no other point to make other than pick at TL, I would consider that a waste of time. See what I have already written about this.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/14/2010 3:31:07 PM
Author: Chrono
CMW,

The LMHC paper states that “it must be a subtle mixture of pinkish orange to orangey pink with pastel tones and low to medium saturation”. The part with the light tone is easy to understand. I define the low to medium saturation as that it cannot be vividly coloured and therefore probably shows varying degrees of brown. I interpret the first dotted point of “no colour modifier other than pink or orange” as that it cannot show any hints of blue, lavender, yellow, and etc.


This newsletter was released way back in 2005 but I think might explain why a pastel orange pink sapphire is deemed a padparadscha yet a very beautifully coloured vivid orange pink sapphire isn’t.

http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfspring05.html#2

Quote:

The definition of padparadscha sapphires has become a matter of debate within the gemstone trade since the discovery of orange brown sapphires in Africa about 25 years ago. A true padparadscha must display a combination of both orange and pink colors. These colors should blend so that it is difficult to see where the pink stops and the orange begins. Others say the orange and pink should mix proportionately and favor the pink. Dealers with goods from new sources want to expand the definition, as having this name brings a price premium. You can get a great deal more if a stone is labeled padparadscha vs. orangish brown sapphire. Traditionalists want to keep the definition limited to a few gemstones to keep the stones rare and valuable.

Should we assume what the LMHC meant when they wrote that only stones with pink and orange should be called padparadscha. I have stated many times what my position is on assuming. You are quite free to assume anything you wish to. Myself i'll stick to the literal meaning of the words they wrote. Even though I do not agree with parts of it.

 

[chrono]

CMW,
I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM
Author: Chrono
CMW,

I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

I think you are assuming that I am being sarcastic. I simply made my point.

 

[chrono]

In that case, lets dicuss the literal meaning of "low saturation" as it applies to the lab's definition for a padparadscha's saturation. How is it possible for a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown tint? Since you mentioned that you do not agree with parts of it, I'm curious to know which parts you disagree with and why.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM
Author: Chrono
CMW,

I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

What do you mean by tone? I am typing at a computer keyboard. Anything else you are reading into my posts are not coming from my end.

 

[colormyworld]

As we have hijacked this thread long enough. Why not start a new thread about padparadschas.

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:25:46 PM
Author: colormyworld

As we have hijacked this thread long enough. Why not start a new thread about padparadschas.

Will you do us the honour?

I do think the discussion should remain here though because we are discussing what is considered a padparadscha and what isn't, which happens to apply to the very first link posted.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM
Author: Chrono
CMW,
I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

CMW why don''t you answer the question?

 

[colormyworld]

This thread was about the best places to get info about padparadschas. I am by no means that.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:29:59 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM
Author: Chrono
CMW,
I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

CMW why don''t you answer the question?

Again, please answer the question. If you can''t then please say so.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:29:59 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM

Author: Chrono

CMW,

I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

CMW why don''t you answer the question?

LD why don''t you stop trying to badger me. I don''t see where you have a horse in this race. As all you have done is criticize me while adding zero info.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:39:36 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/14/2010 4:29:59 PM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM

Author: Chrono

CMW,

I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

CMW why don''t you answer the question?

Again, please answer the question. If you can''t then please say so.

Start a new thread.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/14/2010 4:39:38 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/14/2010 4:29:59 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 4/14/2010 4:14:52 PM

Author: Chrono

CMW,

I do not appreciate the sarcastic tone in your reply. I am honestly trying to discuss a subject with you in seriousness. How can it be possible that a low saturated stone be devoid of any brown?

CMW why don''t you answer the question?

LD why don''t you stop trying to badger me. I don''t see where you have a horse in this race. As all you have done is criticize me while adding zero info.

Yes you''re correct. You do exactly the same on many many threads. You challenge for the sake of it whilst adding zero to the process and I wondered how it would make you feel? Because this is how you make others feel. It''s not nice is it?