Opinions about living together before getting married?

[katrina_33]

I think each couple is simply destined to succeed, or not, based on the individuals’ personalities, levels of commitment, effort put forth in the relationship, etc. If you are compatible and cut out for long term relationship success with each other, I don’t see how living together before marriage is going to squander that, or how living together would make a breakup of any kind (before or after marriage) any more likely.

If you are cohabitating and are in love, fully committed, and putting forth a 100% effort toward building a life together and having a great relationship, you will probably either wind up getting married, or living together happily on a long term basis without getting married, if that’s what you both want. If you’re not cohabitating and are really in love, committed, and putting forth a 100% effort, you will probably wind up getting married and happily living together as a married couple. What’s the difference?

If you’re not compatible, and not cut out to stay together for life for whatever reason, you’re going to find out one way or another - it’s either a painful break up before marriage, a painful divorce if you were married, or being stuck in a miserable marriage for life. If I lived with someone before marriage and the relationship ended, I’d be thanking my lucky stars I *didn’t* get married, and therefore hadn’t wound up divorced, rather than thinking, “If only we hadn’t cohabitated, he would have married me last year, and the relationship would have worked out.” Why would it have played out any differently?

And, by the way, all of this “buying the cow” talk REALLY bothers me. I know not everyone means exactly this by it, but historically, of course the “milk” was sex… Which reminds me of prostitution, to be quite frank, like you’re trading sex for security or commitment or something. It basically assumes that men just want sex and women just want someone to take care of them for life, and if either party gives up one without getting the other in return, they’re being short changed, or not getting a good “deal.” What could be more gross and insulting to women and men than that!??!

I LIKE SEX!!! So why should I “buy the cow” (marry my boyfriend) when he’s already having sex with me for free? Or when he’s already living with me and offering me the support and conveniences of a live in partner for free? Marriage offers benefits and responsibilities for both parties, not just benefits for the woman and responsibilities for the man, and sex (or living together) *should* offer benefits and responsibilities for both parties as well, not just benefits for the man and responsibilities for the woman!

Like I said, I know most people are more referring about the perks of living together before marriage, and not wanting to “give them away” without a commitment in return, but I would ask the same question - aren’t *you* getting those perks too? I just think it’s weird to use something like that as leverage, or really, to try to use “leverage” at all in a mature, loving relationship.

Either you want the arrangement (premarital sex, premarital cohabitation) because it’s good for you too, or you don’t want it because it’s not for you - but why does it have to become this form of wheeling and dealing that the phrase “buying the cow” implies? The idea of wanting to manipulate a man into marriage by withholding something, whether sex or the perks involved with living together, seems SO old fashioned to me!

OK, you can probably all guess my own status pretty easily from my comments – I’ve been with the BF for 5 years, we bought a house together and moved in 2 years ago. My family considers him family, and vice versa. We have 2 dogs together. Separate checking accounts, but make big financial decisions together. We aren’t engaged yet, but have been ring shopping and he plans to get me a ring soon to make that status official. He doesn’t feel that he’ll be ready to get married for at least two years and doesn’t want to set a date right away, but we are going to draw up papers in the meantime designating each other for everything ranging from medical to legal power of attorney, wills & estate stuff, etc.

I was hung up on marriage and weddings for a while there, don’t get me wrong, but I did a lot of soul searching and thinking about what I was *really* after. Besides being excited about all of the actual wedding day accoutrements, I realized that most of the hang-ups that made me feel like we should get married ASAP after moving in together could be satisfied in other ways – we’ll get engaged to make our intentions officially known, and to bring about the respectability and recognition I’d been missing from our social groups and society at large (even though we won’t set a date right away), and we’ll make sure we have everything in place for full legal rights/responsibilities/protections in case one of us dies or becomes ill, so my mind is at ease in that respect too.

Call it half assed if you want, but we’re both happy with that arrangement, and isn’t that what a great relationship is all about – compromising to find what works for both of you? I still do want to get married, and have lots of respect for the institution, but I don’t want it until he’s really 100% ready. And he’s doing what he can to get 100% ready, and constantly making gestures and keeping the ball rolling (getting a ring, etc), not just stalling, which would be a problem, yes.

If I made up a deadline or ultimatum, would he marry me tomorrow if that was the only way I’d stay with him? Probably, but why would I want or need to do that? I don’t for a second feel insecure in our relationship, or like he’s somehow getting a better “deal” than me because we’re cohabitating and not married. We’re both getting the same thing, for pete’s sake! Yes, *logistically* it would be a little bit easier for one of us to leave the relationship than if we were married, (still wouldn’t be easy by any means, as much of our property is joint, pets are joint, etc) but emotionally, it would be just as difficult. I have no worries that he wants to cohabitate so it would be easier for him to duck out when things get rough. In five years together and two years of living together, things already have gotten rough, and we’re both still here! Both of our plans for our own lives include being with the other person long term, and if that plan was derailed for any reason, it would be hugely traumatic, and nowhere near as simple as packing our things and leaving!!!

Sorry for the novel, I guess a few of the comments people made got under my skin more than I’d realized!

 

[AlyceC]

My BF of 3 years and I have been living together for 2 years, for reasons of economy and because our impending engagement and marriage have been delayed by schooling. He moved with me when I relocated for a job, and I moved with him when he relocated for law school. It didn''t make much sense to pay for separate apartments in new cities where we knew no one. Plus with him in law school, if we didn''t live together, I''d never see him!

My parents lived together before they were married, so there wasn''t any attitude from them. My grandmother made some comments about why would anyone buy the cow when the milk is free. I was really worried about his family--they''ve very conservative Catholics. I know they weren''t excited about it at first, but even his grandmother now considers me family and is pressuring him to marry me. We do get some flack from conservative friends and co-workers, which does still bother me to some extent. I don''t think being married will be much different than what we''re doing now...other than being able to say "my husband" instead of "my boyfriend" which to me conjures up images of a 14 year-old who has talked on the phone to the same guy for two weeks straight and now has a "boyfriend."

 

[IndiBlue]

AlyceC- I know what you mean! I HATE calling my boyfriend, my boyfriend. After almost 5 year he''s so much more then just my boyfriend! But, I haven''t come up with the appropriate title yet. Hum?!?

 

[SoonIHope]

Well said Katrina!!! I completely agree with everything you said!!

Alyce & Indi - I know what you mean! It SUCKS! Hehe my problem now though is that I daydream about how soon I''ll get to call him my fiance and then I get worried I''ll accidentally say it even though he isn''t yet. Oops! Haven''t yet though!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 11/7/2005 7:55:14 PM
Author: katrina_33

Like I said, I know most people are more referring about the perks of living together before marriage, and not wanting to “give them away” without a commitment in return, but I would ask the same question - aren’t *you* getting those perks too? I just think it’s weird to use something like that as leverage, or really, to try to use “leverage” at all in a mature, loving relationship.

Either you want the arrangement (premarital sex, premarital cohabitation) because it’s good for you too, or you don’t want it because it’s not for you - but why does it have to become this form of wheeling and dealing that the phrase “buying the cow” implies? The idea of wanting to manipulate a man into marriage by withholding something, whether sex or the perks involved with living together, seems SO old fashioned to me!

Call it half assed if you want, but we’re both happy with that arrangement, and isn’t that what a great relationship is all about – compromising to find what works for both of you? I still do want to get married, and have lots of respect for the institution, but I don’t want it until he’s really 100% ready. And he’s doing what he can to get 100% ready, and constantly making gestures and keeping the ball rolling (getting a ring, etc), not just stalling, which would be a problem, yes.

If I made up a deadline or ultimatum, would he marry me tomorrow if that was the only way I’d stay with him? Probably, but why would I want or need to do that? I don’t for a second feel insecure in our relationship, or like he’s somehow getting a better “deal” than me because we’re cohabitating and not married. We’re both getting the same thing, for pete’s sake!

I think what you may be missing is this: There is a difference between equality (both getting perks) and meeting one''s needs/wants (marriage). Arguably, yes, both are getting perks of marriage in living together.......but if one of those parties WANTS to be married, he or she is *not* having that need met.

I''m all in favor of living together prior to marriage.....and I did it, but for those who don''t wish to, I honestly don''t think the motivation is "manipulating" someone into marriage by withholding. I think that''s a little too stereotypical an interpretation.

I think it has more to do with knowing what you want, and if you want to be married, it doesn''t make a lot of sense to intertwine your physical living space with someone who either might not want to or even doesn''t want to. As you pointed out, it''s hard to end a relationship is always a difficult thing.......but it gets exponentially harder when it involves separating household into mine/yours and packing up/leaving. You end up losing MORE.....you lose the comfort of your relationship, the comfort and security of the roof over your head---it makes it MUCH harder to leave and to stay true to one''s own needs and goals. Emotionally, it just wreaks havoc on a whole other level to do the ''move out'' AND end a relationship thing.

Women (and men) who give it the kind of serious and thoughtful consideration before moving in together are SMART....they are thinking of what their wants/needs are, and whether or not making such a move might diminish their abilities to have those things.

I lived with Rich, but it wasn''t a decision made lightly. We both discussed at length what each wanted and what our expectations were, and we were very much on the same page. It was right for me to live with him then. If we hadn''t been in the same place, I don''t think I''d have done it. My consideration wasn''t whether to "withhold" something from him.....at all. I was leaving a VERY secure place that I loved, and it was a lot to give up. I wanted to be sure we were on the same page before letting that security go.

 

[jenwill]

Detest the phrase ''why buy the cow if you are getting the milk for free''. Hate. HATE. and i don''t HATE easily. Why would you refer to yourself (or anyone else?) as a cow?

I am not a cow. He is not a cow. We were already having sex before we moved in, so how does it get more ''free'' than that?

If you are spending the night regularly and having premarital sex- the ''milk'' is actually more ''free'' than if you live together. Living together means you have to put up with sickness and crankiness and cleaning each others messes up, compromising on everything from what to eat at every meal (not just 3/4/5/7 dinners a week, but Lunch! Breakfast! Snacktime!) to whose programs get tivo''d and recorded with more importance. Not living together means that you sleep over, have fun, and then go away- if a guy was just going to be using someone for sex (or vice-versa) I think the NOT living together but getting all premarital sex benefits is going to be more to his liking.

Each person should follow what is comfortable for their own relationshsip, but hopefully we can all refrain from the tired cow metaphor.

 

[platinumrock]

Date: 11/7/2005 7:55:14 PM
Author: katrina_33

I think each couple is simply destined to succeed, or not, based on the individuals’ personalities, levels of commitment, effort put forth in the relationship, etc. If you are compatible and cut out for long term relationship success with each other, I don’t see how living together before marriage is going to squander that, or how living together would make a breakup of any kind (before or after marriage) any more likely.

If you are cohabitating and are in love, fully committed, and putting forth a 100% effort toward building a life together and having a great relationship, you will probably either wind up getting married, or living together happily on a long term basis without getting married, if that’s what you both want. If you’re not cohabitating and are really in love, committed, and putting forth a 100% effort, you will probably wind up getting married and happily living together as a married couple. What’s the difference?

If you’re not compatible, and not cut out to stay together for life for whatever reason, you’re going to find out one way or another - it’s either a painful break up before marriage, a painful divorce if you were married, or being stuck in a miserable marriage for life. If I lived with someone before marriage and the relationship ended, I’d be thanking my lucky stars I *didn’t* get married, and therefore hadn’t wound up divorced, rather than thinking, “If only we hadn’t cohabitated, he would have married me last year, and the relationship would have worked out.” Why would it have played out any differently?

And, by the way, all of this “buying the cow” talk REALLY bothers me. I know not everyone means exactly this by it, but historically, of course the “milk” was sex… Which reminds me of prostitution, to be quite frank, like you’re trading sex for security or commitment or something. It basically assumes that men just want sex and women just want someone to take care of them for life, and if either party gives up one without getting the other in return, they’re being short changed, or not getting a good “deal.” What could be more gross and insulting to women and men than that!??!

I LIKE SEX!!! So why should I “buy the cow” (marry my boyfriend) when he’s already having sex with me for free? Or when he’s already living with me and offering me the support and conveniences of a live in partner for free? Marriage offers benefits and responsibilities for both parties, not just benefits for the woman and responsibilities for the man, and sex (or living together) *should* offer benefits and responsibilities for both parties as well, not just benefits for the man and responsibilities for the woman!

Like I said, I know most people are more referring about the perks of living together before marriage, and not wanting to “give them away” without a commitment in return, but I would ask the same question - aren’t *you* getting those perks too? I just think it’s weird to use something like that as leverage, or really, to try to use “leverage” at all in a mature, loving relationship.

Either you want the arrangement (premarital sex, premarital cohabitation) because it’s good for you too, or you don’t want it because it’s not for you - but why does it have to become this form of wheeling and dealing that the phrase “buying the cow” implies? The idea of wanting to manipulate a man into marriage by withholding something, whether sex or the perks involved with living together, seems SO old fashioned to me!

OK, you can probably all guess my own status pretty easily from my comments – I’ve been with the BF for 5 years, we bought a house together and moved in 2 years ago. My family considers him family, and vice versa. We have 2 dogs together. Separate checking accounts, but make big financial decisions together. We aren’t engaged yet, but have been ring shopping and he plans to get me a ring soon to make that status official. He doesn’t feel that he’ll be ready to get married for at least two years and doesn’t want to set a date right away, but we are going to draw up papers in the meantime designating each other for everything ranging from medical to legal power of attorney, wills & estate stuff, etc.

I was hung up on marriage and weddings for a while there, don’t get me wrong, but I did a lot of soul searching and thinking about what I was *really* after. Besides being excited about all of the actual wedding day accoutrements, I realized that most of the hang-ups that made me feel like we should get married ASAP after moving in together could be satisfied in other ways – we’ll get engaged to make our intentions officially known, and to bring about the respectability and recognition I’d been missing from our social groups and society at large (even though we won’t set a date right away), and we’ll make sure we have everything in place for full legal rights/responsibilities/protections in case one of us dies or becomes ill, so my mind is at ease in that respect too.

Call it half assed if you want, but we’re both happy with that arrangement, and isn’t that what a great relationship is all about – compromising to find what works for both of you? I still do want to get married, and have lots of respect for the institution, but I don’t want it until he’s really 100% ready. And he’s doing what he can to get 100% ready, and constantly making gestures and keeping the ball rolling (getting a ring, etc), not just stalling, which would be a problem, yes.

If I made up a deadline or ultimatum, would he marry me tomorrow if that was the only way I’d stay with him? Probably, but why would I want or need to do that? I don’t for a second feel insecure in our relationship, or like he’s somehow getting a better “deal” than me because we’re cohabitating and not married. We’re both getting the same thing, for pete’s sake! Yes, *logistically* it would be a little bit easier for one of us to leave the relationship than if we were married, (still wouldn’t be easy by any means, as much of our property is joint, pets are joint, etc) but emotionally, it would be just as difficult. I have no worries that he wants to cohabitate so it would be easier for him to duck out when things get rough. In five years together and two years of living together, things already have gotten rough, and we’re both still here! Both of our plans for our own lives include being with the other person long term, and if that plan was derailed for any reason, it would be hugely traumatic, and nowhere near as simple as packing our things and leaving!!!

Sorry for the novel, I guess a few of the comments people made got under my skin more than I’d realized!

You go girl!!!

I hate that "why buy the cow" saying too, because it''s unfairly targeted at us. If moving in before marriage cheapens a woman, what does that make her if she gets divorced? Oh wait, she was married....that''s the only relationship that counts, right?

These are the double standards we have to deal with:



1) If a woman lives with her boyfriend before marriage, she "plays wife", but it doesn''t count. What about the guy? Doesn''t that mean he plays husband?

2) If a woman is unmarried by age 30 (probably older by today''s standards), she is a spinster and people start asking questions. But if a man is unmarried by age 30, he''s stil a bachelor and hasn''t "found the right woman to settle down with". Hence, women are expected to be married, men are expected to be single. Maybe this explains the "deadlines".

3) No matter how successful a woman is, it doesn''t count if she doesn''t have a man, a child or both. People start to "worry".

4) If a woman sleeps around, she is promiscuous and a (rhymes with bore). If a man sleeps around, that means he can score and it''s proof that he''s not gay.

5) Women get old, men get "distinguished".

6) If a man is a slob and doesn''t clean, he''s just being a man. If a woman is a slob and doesn''t clean, she''s a pig. If a man and a woman live together and the place is a mess, the woman is still the pig. So why do we pick up after them when it''s not our mess? I have a "pick it up or it goes in the thrash" rule that seems to work.

7) A woman who speaks her mind is an opinionated (rhymes with witch). A man who speaks his mind is confident and intellegent.

Women are judged by their looks and domestic capabilities. Men are judged by how much they make. So if the woman works full-time, why is she still expected to cook, clean, maintain the house and the kids? If the man doesn''t work, he''s unemployed. But if the woman stays home with the kids, she''s a housewife.

9) If a woman doesn''t want a baby and plans to live the rest of her life without one, there must be something wroing with her. Every woman wants a baby!

10) When a woman is persistent about what she wants, she is a nag. When a man is persistent about what he wants, he is "determined".


What''s up with that?

 

[katrina_33]

Date: 11/22/2005 2:26:30 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 11/7/2005 7:55:14 PM
Author: katrina_33

Like I said, I know most people are more referring about the perks of living together before marriage, and not wanting to “give them away” without a commitment in return, but I would ask the same question - aren’t *you* getting those perks too? I just think it’s weird to use something like that as leverage, or really, to try to use “leverage” at all in a mature, loving relationship.

Either you want the arrangement (premarital sex, premarital cohabitation) because it’s good for you too, or you don’t want it because it’s not for you - but why does it have to become this form of wheeling and dealing that the phrase “buying the cow” implies? The idea of wanting to manipulate a man into marriage by withholding something, whether sex or the perks involved with living together, seems SO old fashioned to me!

Call it half assed if you want, but we’re both happy with that arrangement, and isn’t that what a great relationship is all about – compromising to find what works for both of you? I still do want to get married, and have lots of respect for the institution, but I don’t want it until he’s really 100% ready. And he’s doing what he can to get 100% ready, and constantly making gestures and keeping the ball rolling (getting a ring, etc), not just stalling, which would be a problem, yes.

If I made up a deadline or ultimatum, would he marry me tomorrow if that was the only way I’d stay with him? Probably, but why would I want or need to do that? I don’t for a second feel insecure in our relationship, or like he’s somehow getting a better “deal” than me because we’re cohabitating and not married. We’re both getting the same thing, for pete’s sake!

I think what you may be missing is this: There is a difference between equality (both getting perks) and meeting one''s needs/wants (marriage). Arguably, yes, both are getting perks of marriage in living together.......but if one of those parties WANTS to be married, he or she is *not* having that need met.

I''m all in favor of living together prior to marriage.....and I did it, but for those who don''t wish to, I honestly don''t think the motivation is ''manipulating'' someone into marriage by withholding. I think that''s a little too stereotypical an interpretation.

I think it has more to do with knowing what you want, and if you want to be married, it doesn''t make a lot of sense to intertwine your physical living space with someone who either might not want to or even doesn''t want to. As you pointed out, it''s hard to end a relationship is always a difficult thing.......but it gets exponentially harder when it involves separating household into mine/yours and packing up/leaving. You end up losing MORE.....you lose the comfort of your relationship, the comfort and security of the roof over your head---it makes it MUCH harder to leave and to stay true to one''s own needs and goals. Emotionally, it just wreaks havoc on a whole other level to do the ''move out'' AND end a relationship thing.

Women (and men) who give it the kind of serious and thoughtful consideration before moving in together are SMART....they are thinking of what their wants/needs are, and whether or not making such a move might diminish their abilities to have those things.

I lived with Rich, but it wasn''t a decision made lightly. We both discussed at length what each wanted and what our expectations were, and we were very much on the same page. It was right for me to live with him then. If we hadn''t been in the same place, I don''t think I''d have done it. My consideration wasn''t whether to ''withhold'' something from him.....at all. I was leaving a VERY secure place that I loved, and it was a lot to give up. I wanted to be sure we were on the same page before letting that security go.

I don''t think we disagree at all - remember the first part of my post, which was:

"I think each couple is simply destined to succeed, or not, based on the individuals’ personalities, levels of commitment, effort put forth in the relationship, etc. If you are compatible and cut out for long term relationship success with each other, I don’t see how living together before marriage is going to squander that, or how living together would make a breakup of any kind (before or after marriage) any more likely.
If you are cohabitating and are in love, fully committed, and putting forth a 100% effort toward building a life together and having a great relationship, you will probably either wind up getting married, or living together happily on a long term basis without getting married, if that’s what you both want. If you’re not cohabitating and are really in love, committed, and putting forth a 100% effort, you will probably wind up getting married and happily living together as a married couple. What’s the difference?"
Certianly if the woman wants to get married and the man doesn''t, a live in relationship is not a good idea and both parties aren''t getting treated equally in one. I would also recommend that the woman not move in in that situation! But if she really wants to get married and he really doesn''t, they probably need to just break up entirely, right!?! (Rather than stay together but living apart, with the hope that he''ll change his mind eventually?)

I know not many people are consciously saying or thinking "you have to ''hold out'' or use living together as leverage to make him more likely to marry you" but some of that sentiment comes through nonetheless. I DEFINITELY know women who would have enjoyed and otherwise benefited from living with their SO before marriage (and freely admitted as much), but didn’t, because they felt like he needed that extra incentive to propose. And some people’s comments here have been along those lines – guys get ‘comfortable’ when you’re living together and there’s no reason to propose, etc.
It certainly gets messy making the distinction between wanting him to have incentive to propose (which feels ever so slightly manipulative) vs. not wanting to give up your whole life and your own space until you’re sure that you’re both on the same page.

For me there’s an element of trusting his word rather than feeling the need for ‘proof’ of his intentions in the form of a ring. It’s so tricky, and there is a delicate balance between trusting someone’s word vs. looking out for yourself and staying true to what you want. (I am probably a little guilty of erring on the side of the former)

Obviously if you really don’t trust your SO’s word when they say they want to marry you and that’s the direction it’s headed but they’re not quite ready, and you think they may just be saying it to shut you up, buy time, or get you to move in so their life is more convenient, that’s a BIG problem in and of itself!!! Of course for most people it’s a gray area, they trust their partner, but still have an instinct to protect themselves just in case, or they trust their partner, but want it backed up with something concrete.

If you move in and he stalls and stalls marriage, and you come to find that he doesn’t really want it after all, yep, it’s a bigger problem than just the living situation, and you’ll have to break up, and it will be all the more painful because of having lived together, and it would have been better not to have moved in in the first place.

It’s definitely a leap of faith, and you’re risking getting extra hurt if it turns out that he’s not being totally honest about what he wants & intends. I think some people are just more comfortable making that leap of faith than others. Some people are very attached to their personal space, habits, belongings, etc, and others are more OK with starting over in terms of living spaces. Some people naturally trust others (and will likely get burned at some point because of it) and some people need to see actions speak louder than words or are a little more guarded (maybe because of past relationship experiences)

What I was mainly saying is that I don’t think someone should rule out living with an SO before marriage *simply* because of concerns about making marriage less likely somehow. If the relationship is cut out for long term success, I don’t think you will ‘mess it up’ by moving in before marriage, and if you’d like to live with them, you absolutely should!

I also think it’s hard for some of us to wrap our heads around the concept that a guy could be sure he wants to marry you, but just not be ready to actually do it. I get it when people say “if you know you want to be with me, then you should have no problem with getting married now,” but on the other hand, I have my own example and can put myself in the guys shoes – I know that I want kids, but I also know that I’m not ready for them now. Marriage does change the dynamic of a relationship and it is a big deal and a HUGE life choice, so I can totally understand knowing you want it, but not being ready for it right away, and living together I think can be a sensible step in getting ready for it.

Such a complicated issue!!!

 

[katrina_33]

I had NO idea that last post had gotten so long, sorry!

Anyhow, if you don''t want to read it, the crux of my argument in general about living together is this:

You''re not going to ruin or de-rail a good, marriage material relationship by living with someone before marriage, and if it feels right to you, you should go for it.

You might discover that a realtionship that you thought was strong and suitable for marriage isn''t though, and the fallout from that that will suck a lot more than if you hadn''t moved in (but will suck less than if you''d already gotten married!)

So, if you''re considering moving in with someone you want to marry but haven''t yet, you aboslutely have to be confident that the relationship is strong and that you''re both on the same page and ultimately want the same thing, and you also have to be wiling to make somewhat of a leap of faith.