Parents and non-parents

[vespergirl]

Hi guys, I just wanted to mention something about where my head was before I had a child. My pregnancy was unplanned, and I wasn''t even engaged yet when I became pregnant (me & DH were living together).

Until my late 20s, I was very undecided about whether to have kids, and really didn''t think that I ever would. I was very career-focused, and loved travelling, dining out, attending concerts, etc. My life was very full without a child. When I was a little girl, I never even owned a baby doll or carriage, and when my little brother was born, my mom said I took one look at him and then ignored him until he hit first grade and could have a real conversation. When I unexpectedly became pregnant, I cried when I found out, and actually felt a sense of despair, because I didn''t know if I was ready (I was 29) and didn''t know how my live-in boyfriend would react. When I told him, he was ecstatic, and his enthusiasm was catching. We got married 7 weeks later, and my son was born 6 months after that. Since then, I couldn''t imagine my life without him, love him more than I''ve ever loved anyone, and shudder when I think that I ever considered not having children - I feel that I would have been really missing out on the best things I''ve ever experienced in life.

The reason that I''m posting this is because I was very reluctant to become a mother, but from the instant he was born, he has become the most amazing thing that I have ever accomplished, and he has fulfilled me beyond any expectation. I am just writing this to let you guys know that sometimes, even those of us who felt that we weren''t the maternal type before become very surprised when we have our own children. And, just for the record, I still don''t really care for other people''s babies or kids - nothing against them, I just feel indifferent. There is truly a magical bond that you have with your own child, that I''ve never had with anyone else.

I guess the moral of the story is, even though I didn''t think I was the maternal type, and wasn''t sure that I wanted kids, I really love being a mother more than any other experience that I''ve had.

 

[CJ2008]

vesper...

and so many other of you...

I'm really loving this thread because there's been so much raw honesty here.

Vesper...I have a feeling I would most likely ADORE my child. But I have no way of really knowing, you know? Sometimes I want to just "do it" for my DH and cross my fingers and hope for the best. Thank you for those words though, because during those moments when I think I should, it's good to remember that not everyone knew they wanted to be a mom from the get-go. ETA: ...and that you could absolutely LOVE being a mom but doesn't necessarily mean you will love all kids all of the sudden and want to see every picture and hear about their every move.

 

[Babyblue033]

Author: Apsara

Date: 12/6/2008 4:50:40 PM
I guess I sort of resent the 'you don't know what your missing' perspective.

You hit the nail on the head. I don't mind moms talking about their kids, sending pictures, as a matter of fact I love hearing about their experience and feel flattered that they want to share it with me. But this attitude I seem to get from so many mothers, that having kids has suddenly put them in a position to DISMISS my belief and decision because I must not know any better, I find quite insulting.

I just don't think that just because you're a woman, married, of a certain age, that you should automatically have children. Why shouldn't I weigh my options? Why shouldn't I agonize over the most important decision of my life? Why shouldn't I consider the possibility that this might not be for ME? Personally, I think it would be irresponsible not to consider all options. I also don't see how having children can be THE greatest thing for ALL women, when every woman and every situation is different.

I love seeing wonderful loving moms who are happy with their kids. I just wish they wouldn't consider it as a badge of honor and consider the possibility that other women just MIGHT know what they want too?

 

[moremoremore]

LOL CJ...I'm glad I gave you a laugh...I'm been studying MS Excel all day and I'm totally coo-coo for coco puffs!!!
I'm sure we can really add to that list...

True story...we were at a friend's and the baby spit up on my husband...It was a big deal I guess LOL and I was like I'll get it!...So I happily got a cloth and proceded to .... wipe off my husband's shirt as the poor kid was covered in barf....the father "yelled" and me and was like WIPE OFF THE BABY YOU IDIOT lol...Wow, I'm not maternal

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 12/6/2008 8:39:03 PM
Author: Babyblue033
Author: Apsara

Date: 12/6/2008 4:50:40 PM
I guess I sort of resent the ''you don''t know what your missing'' perspective.

You hit the nail on the head. I don''t mind moms talking about their kids, sending pictures, as a matter of fact I love hearing about their experience and feel flattered that they want to share it with me. But this attitude I seem to get from so many mothers, that having kids has suddenly put them in a position to DISMISS my belief and decision because I must not know any better, I find quite insulting.

I just don''t think that just because you''re a woman, married, of a certain age, that you should automatically have children. Why shouldn''t I weigh my options? Why shouldn''t I agonize over the most important decision of my life? Why shouldn''t I consider the possibility that this might not be for ME? Personally, I think it would be irresponsible not to consider all options. I also don''t see how having children can be THE greatest thing for ALL women, when every woman and every situation is different.

I love seeing wonderful loving moms who are happy with their kids. I just wish they wouldn''t consider it as a badge of honor and consider the possibility that other women just MIGHT know what they want too?

While everyone I know loves being a mom (although a lot of them really wanted it from day one), I totally think not everyone SHOULD be a parent. If everyone made it a priority, then we wouldn''t see all this kids running around misbehaving that scare the rest of you from having kids, would we? Hehehe.

And on a related note, we had a gal''s Christmas dinner party last night. Out of the group 7 have kids (although 2 were no shows) and 3 do not. Somehow (and I proudly admit through no fault of my own) we were eating dinner when the dinner conversation turned into BABY POO. I couldn''t help it, I finally said (actually, I think I screamed it in an exasperated manner), "Why IS it that when a bunch of moms get together, the conversation always turns into one about baby sh*t????!?" They all snapped out of it and changed course immediately, but sheesh! I am a mom and I REALLY feel for the rest of the world who are not and have to be subjected to that kind of garbage. Over DINNER of all things.

Mom or not, that is just truly lacking in manners!!!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/6/2008 9:25:55 PM
Author: TravelingGal

And on a related note, we had a gal's Christmas dinner party last night. Out of the group 7 have kids (although 2 were no shows) and 3 do not. Somehow (and I proudly admit through no fault of my own) we were eating dinner when the dinner conversation turned into BABY POO. I couldn't help it, I finally said (actually, I think I screamed it in an exasperated manner), 'Why IS it that when a bunch of moms get together, the conversation always turns into one about baby sh*t????!?' They all snapped out of it and changed course immediately, but sheesh! I am a mom and I REALLY feel for the rest of the world who are not and have to be subjected to that kind of garbage. Over DINNER of all things.

Mom or not, that is just truly lacking in manners!!!

ROFL
I laughed so hard I had an asthma attack!
I wish someone had said that at the dinners I was at!!!!!!!

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/6/2008 10:04:58 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 12/6/2008 9:25:55 PM

Author: TravelingGal


And on a related note, we had a gal''s Christmas dinner party last night. Out of the group 7 have kids (although 2 were no shows) and 3 do not. Somehow (and I proudly admit through no fault of my own) we were eating dinner when the dinner conversation turned into BABY POO. I couldn''t help it, I finally said (actually, I think I screamed it in an exasperated manner), ''Why IS it that when a bunch of moms get together, the conversation always turns into one about baby sh*t????!?'' They all snapped out of it and changed course immediately, but sheesh! I am a mom and I REALLY feel for the rest of the world who are not and have to be subjected to that kind of garbage. Over DINNER of all things.

Mom or not, that is just truly lacking in manners!!!

ROFL

I laughed so hard I had an asthma attack!

I wish someone had said that at the dinners I was at!!!!!!!

LOL, T-Gal you are too much. You really made me laugh, you are so darn funny ha ha ha ha ha. I can just picture you saying that too. I remember when my daughter was a baby and we talked about that too. Same with the grandboys, my daughter talked about poo, colored poo, etc, LOL.

Storm: I hate when that happens, I get that too, laugh so hard, it brings on an Asthma Attack. It can be quite embarrassing too.

 

[TravelingGal]

Sorry strm, hope you are OK!

I actually wasn't meaning to be funny.

I just felt so bad for the three gals who aren't moms. Actually I felt bad for anyone with food in their mouth. Sometimes I think we women are so used to be open and discussing all kinds of TMI things that we forget that feces is not an appropriate topic for dinner.

ETA, I should clarify that I had to practically scream (which is also not a polite thing to do) out my dismay because this was a very LOUD conversation about baby poo- and several of us were having pate.

 

[Babyblue033]

What''s funny is that I''m a childless woman who doesn''t really want kids, but I would feel perfectly at home talking about baby poo at the dinner table!

It''s one of the more frequent topics between my coworker and me, she''s a dog mom and I''m a cat mom so we often find ourselves comparing poo stories of our fur-kids. LOL!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/6/2008 10:15:56 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Sorry strm, hope you are OK!


I actually wasn''t meaning to be funny.

I just felt so bad for the three gals who aren''t moms. Actually I felt bad for anyone with food in their mouth. Sometimes I think we women are so used to be open and discussing all kinds of TMI things that we forget that feces is not an appropriate topic for dinner.


ETA, I should clarify that I had to practically scream (which is also not a polite thing to do) out my dismay because this was a very LOUD conversation about baby poo- and several of us were having pate.

Im fine
It was funny cuz I could just picture the look on their faces LOL

 

[miraclesrule]

Well, it''s a good thing they didn''t have digital cameras back when my daughter was a baby. Sheesh, I didn''t even own one most of the time, but thank god my Mom did, so we have some pictures.

I am one of those "children people". Always have been, and will always be so. I love them, can''t get enough of them, and I apparently talked about it a lot.

I was at court last week, something I try not to do anymore at this time in my career. I ran into an attorney who was, like a few of us there, longtimer''s. I hadn''t seem him in over 15 years. We chatted about the "good ole crazy days" and revistied some of our interactions in the past, and then we went about doing our business in separate hearing rooms.

He then came back up to me and said "You know what else I remember about you? You were so worried about your daughter when she went to camp." I marveled at how this man remembered this, much less knew it? Then he came back awhile later and said "You know what else I remember?"....and it was something random about my daughter from her high school days, but I don''t remember what it was right now. Then he asked me "How is your daughter? Is she married?" And I got to tell him that she just got married in July and he smiled and said "That''s great...that''s great" He smiled at me, told me not to be a stranger and shuffled off.

So it''s not always apparent when one is talking randomly about their kids, that one is or isn''t being a drain on someone else. If I overwhelmed this man in the past with talk about my child, it turned out to be a happy and pleasant memory for both of us 15-20 years down the road. Who knew???

 

[Apsara]

I think that the "you don''t know what your missing" attitude some people have (not Travelinggal--I am referring to people I know), is what ultimately irritates me. Yes--100% I will never know what it''s like to have a child--that''s a fact--just like TG said she will never know what it''s like to be in her mid 30s and not have one and whateever life that would mean for her. It''s more the condescending attitiude some women have--like having a child completes you, fulfills you utterly as a woman--for some yes--but just because you have a kid , that doens''t make you superior to me or ''let in on some secret" about which the rest of us are ignorant.

Ultimately, when I get frustrated about this whole thing, I do try to appreciate that as little as one generation ago, to be a woman whose primary dutities weren''t "wife and mother" was just unacceptible. Now let me be clear--i think being a mother is one of the most important roles a woman can play. in fact, I actually think the backlash of equal rights has been a de-valuing of this critical role to a degree. heck--when I was contemplating whether to be a mom, I knew if I chose to have a child, I''d want to stay home for the first several years of the kid''s life and I am lucky to have that choice financially.

It''s funny--I bet most of us don''t even know what life without the Pill is like! Imagine!

 

[Linda W]

Ok, I am going to post this as an older woman''s point of view. I am 59, had one child a daughter and now I have two grandsons, who I adore. Am I glad I made the decision. You bet I am.

Now for the other side. I have two close girlfriends, who are also 59. They have been married forever. They both made the decision with their spouses NOT to have children. Are they still happy with their decision? No children, no grandchildren? YES YES YES!!!!!

They love my grandchildren. They loved my daughter and loved watching her grow up but...... they loved their freedom more. They had more freedom to do things than I did. They have traveled all over the world, picked up and left at the spur of the moment. They have led an exciting life and they still do. Not once have they ever regretted not having children.

So..... those of you, who do not wish to have children. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty.


Oh, I almost forgot. At my 40th High School Reunion last year, were a few more couples there, who also decided not to have children. One couple had a second home in Italy somewhere

Linda

 

[Gailey]

Date: 11/30/2008 12:39:54 PM
Author: Independent Gal
I think this phenomenon is like anything else in life: weddings, babies, grieving, careers. We have to accept that what is really important to us isn't necessarily interesting to anyone else. Nobody cares about your wedding or your baby or your grieving or your career as much as you do. Mostly, people like to connect with you and to talk about their own experiences. Friendships are often grounded in shared interests and experiences, or else in trying to understand and share the other's interests and experiences.

So, if you want to preserve and cultivate your friendships, then whatever you are going through, you have to limit the amount of time you devote to talking about your own experience if that experience is not shared by your friend. Sure, a good friend should want to hear about and come to understand what you're going through, should want to vicariously enjoy whatever is important to you and vicariously suffer through what makes you sad. But the fact of the matter is, if you only talk about your own stuff and don't make efforts to ask other people about what is going on with them, to listen attentively, to try to understand them, and to share with them and support them, if you only talk about yourself and your own experiences, then you are not a good friend or a good conversationalist.

This extends to overwhelming them with pictures of your dirty food-smeared baby. It's self-absorbed and shows a lack of perspective about the relative importance of your child or your status as a parent in the scheme of things.

This is the same whether you are working through grief at the loss of a child, or enjoying the growing and development of a live child. I also think it's ridiculous when people expect you to care as much about their kid's every move, as though they were the first person to raise a child. I love seeing a picture of my friends' kids as they grow and make a point of asking to see pictures periodically, but if they sent 10 pictures every week, I'd be hugely annoyed too. Because it's self-centered.

And in kind, if I'm blessed with more kids, I won't send 10 pictures to my friends every week, even though I'm sure every tiny thing my kid does will seem like an extraordinary miracle to me. Similarly, nor do I spend all my time talking to my friends about my grieving right now. I ask them how THEY are, I want to hear about THEIR children, about THEIR plans and hopes and stresses. They listen to me and try to understand me, and I listen to them and try to understand them.

When people lose sight of this and just focus on themselves and what is important to them, and think it is just as important to everyone else they are being self-absorbed. They are being bad friends and lame conversation partners.

Even your closest friends don't want to hear about your wedding or your baby or your loss of a baby ALL THE TIME. Pay attention to others. Take their cues about how they are feeling and how interested they are. And choose friends who listen to you and confide in you in turn, who try to form connections, and not to obsess over themselves alone. A good lesson to learn.

That is a truly outstanding and insightful post Independant Gal. Your friends are blessed to have you in their circle.

 

[LaraOnline]

Very interesting to hear your perspective, Linda W!

More power to you, and to those around you who chose to choose their own direction in life and love. I admire women who take the interesting road, of choosing to not have children.

Personally, I felt an incredibly strong pyschological pressure from within myself to have children. Like the insistent, inescapable, beating of a drum. when I pushed that first baby out, a little chattering voice in my brain was silenced forever. Sweet relief!

Basically, I think having children was part of my survival strategy, I really wanted the whole happy family. I can dig it when a woman has a different trip going on, and her survival / identity is associated with career, partying, adventure, whatever!

Generally, I tend towards hand-wringing over the fact that modern contraception has co-opted so many nice girls out of the gene pool, against their wishes, because the lover postpones kids/commitment etc.
Involuntary infertility was one of my very worst nightmares!
And I literally weep for the hundreds of thousands of modern women that are unable to conceive a child of their own, in good conscience, because they are unfairly delayed.
Or perhaps, as my IVF nurse friend tells me, many of them are in great relationships and have just been over confident about late pregnancy.
*shakes fist at universe, and at rising rates of IVF*

However, we don''t all need to have kids, surely. Variety of life choices can make life so much more interesting.

Sometimes I feel I have evolved into a big, dumb cow that is part screaming banshee, part dishmop. I''d like to wear pencil skirts, pumps and jewellery I buy myself. But unfortunately, that was not part of my survival strategy, haha!!

Children can be a good way of getting some consistency in your life and relationships. If you''re the flighty type, like me, being forced to stay in one spot to love your children is a great way to ''get grounded''.

You can''t fly off overseas because you''ve had a fight with your husband, when there''s kids on the ground! So there is the stabilising factor.

And now I''ve had the practise, I love looking at photos of kids. I even cry REAL TEARS at the nappy ads on TV!! so maybe baby photos should be concentrated towards older relatives whose children have grown, they are more likely to get pleasure from them!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 12/7/2008 11:00:26 PM
Author: Linda W
Ok, I am going to post this as an older woman's point of view. I am 59, had one child a daughter and now I have two grandsons, who I adore. Am I glad I made the decision. You bet I am.

Now for the other side. I have two close girlfriends, who are also 59. They have been married forever. They both made the decision with their spouses NOT to have children. Are they still happy with their decision? No children, no grandchildren? YES YES YES!!!!!

They love my grandchildren. They loved my daughter and loved watching her grow up but...... they loved their freedom more. They had more freedom to do things than I did. They have traveled all over the world, picked up and left at the spur of the moment. They have led an exciting life and they still do. Not once have they ever regretted not having children.

So..... those of you, who do not wish to have children. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty.


Oh, I almost forgot. At my 40th High School Reunion last year, were a few more couples there, who also decided not to have children. One couple had a second home in Italy somewhere

Linda

So so true Linda.

Like Apsara said, people are missing things on both sides of the fence. But it doesn't make one's life BETTER than another who had kids or didn't. So I can understand the frustration and annoyance that Apsara mentioned when it comes to condescending attitudes. And that does happen on both sides as they try to justify the decisions that they have made.

And the kicker is that the people who don't have kids probably don't envy my life. But I can definitely say that I envy theirs from time to time. Being able to pick up and go whenever you want? A home in Italy? HELL YEAH that sounds great! It sounds even better when I think I could be working my a** off only to produce a grown up who hates me!

 

[miraclesrule]

I also agree with LindaW regarding the very obvious happiness of couples that I know who opted out of parenthood. The wife was a teacher and felt that she was able to "parent" in a slightly different manner. I just received a copy of the DVD they compiled during their most recent trip around the world. They are avid travelers and as far as I know, have never regretted their decision to remain childless. They are enjoying their retirement and seem infinately happy and satisfied. Parenthood is not everyone''s cup of tea, even though it is for a lot of us. That''s the great thing about the human experience...free will.

Nobody should attempt to make someone feel guilty for not wanting to be a parent. Remember though that nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. My advice is to formulate some very articulate but pointed responses to those who seem, albeit unintentionally, to make you feel inferior or that you will be "missing out".

Frankly, I think that one knowing they don''t want to be a parent is a blessing. It''s one less miserable on the planet.

 

[CJ2008]

Date: 12/8/2008 1:54:21 AM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 12/7/2008 11:00:26 PM
Author: Linda W
Ok, I am going to post this as an older woman's point of view. I am 59, had one child a daughter and now I have two grandsons, who I adore. Am I glad I made the decision. You bet I am.

Now for the other side. I have two close girlfriends, who are also 59. They have been married forever. They both made the decision with their spouses NOT to have children. Are they still happy with their decision? No children, no grandchildren? YES YES YES!!!!!

They love my grandchildren. They loved my daughter and loved watching her grow up but...... they loved their freedom more. They had more freedom to do things than I did. They have traveled all over the world, picked up and left at the spur of the moment. They have led an exciting life and they still do. Not once have they ever regretted not having children.

So..... those of you, who do not wish to have children. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty.


Oh, I almost forgot. At my 40th High School Reunion last year, were a few more couples there, who also decided not to have children. One couple had a second home in Italy somewhere

Linda

So so true Linda.

Like Apsara said, people are missing things on both sides of the fence. But it doesn't make one's life BETTER than another who had kids or didn't. So I can understand the frustration and annoyance that Apsara mentioned when it comes to condescending attitudes. And that does happen on both sides as they try to justify the decisions that they have made.

And the kicker is that the people who don't have kids probably don't envy my life. But I can definitely say that I envy theirs from time to time. Being able to pick up and go whenever you want? A home in Italy? HELL YEAH that sounds great! It sounds even better when I think I could be working my a** off only to produce a grown up who hates me!

TG, this is one of the thoughts that crosses my mind too. For every parent I know who has great children there are parents with kids who end up on drugs, doing nothing with their lives, and basically just taking up space (and taking from their parents). One of my nieces, who's in her teens, came to visit us for a weekend and I was exhausted by the time she left. She has quite a few issues (mostly from not having good parents) and I thought I had done a great job listening to her, containing myself at times when I wanted to tell her off, but yet being clear about what I expected while she was with us. And it still wasn't enough - she complained that I didn't listen, that I was making faces while she was talking, and all kinds of things, when all that was in my heart was wanting to provide her a place to just be able to talk safely. I remember when she left saying to myself "man, I don't want to have to do that 24/7." I could think that my daughter would never turn out like that because I'd be a good parent - but you never really know all the ways you can mess your children up w/o even intending to.

When my manicurist said what she said to me I felt a few different things - at first, it was liike my heart took a dive, I felt guilty, and a little embarrassed. And that's mostly because I feel guilty and unsure of my decision so it struck a deep chord. But then afterwards I started to get really pissed - how dare she say that to me? That's pretty ballsy to say to someone, especially a client. Now granted, I've been going to her for several months and we talk, and laugh, I really like her - she's pretty spunky - but I felt she crossed the line with that comment. I was nice about it though the next time I went and she asked me if I had decided to have kids I said "why, you're not going to call me selfish again, are you?" I think she understood in that moment that it may not have been a nice thing to say to me, especially when she knows I'm conflicted (plus the client thing).