Pigeon Blood Red

[Cave Keeper]

There''s a point made in Richard Wise''s book ''Secrets of the Gem Trade'' about hue. In particular, a red hue and a hue that looked maroon were shown. He then explained that both were actually of the same hue - red.

But can an Indian or Pakistani supplier, or anyone else for that matter, use the same hue reason as an excuse to describe a rsther dark color of the same hue as Pigeon Blood Red to call that dark hue Pigeon Blood Red?

Pigeon Blood Color is a Burmese/Thai color reference, and I believe the Burmese and Thai reference to Pigeon Blood Color would assume that the particular color would be of a particular brightness, shade and saturation, though they may have been ignorant that the range of values of such factors had to be defined clearly to avoid confusion.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 8/29/2005 5:02:48 AM
Author:Cave Keeper
There''s a point made in Richard Wise''s book ''Secrets of the Gem Trade'' about hue. In particular, a red hue and a hue that looked maroon were shown. He then explained that both were actually of the same hue - red.

I do not have the book with me, does it say (or even imply remotely) that red hue = pidgin'' blood red ?

The respective loose commercial denomination has already been used, abused and missused so much that the argument you describe would not even register

Oh well...

 

[Sagebrush]

Cave,

I said what? I think you may have gotten two books confused. I think there is an illustration of colors in Dick Hughes'' Ruby & Sapphire. Suggest you check out my article "Burma Ruby, The Boss is Back" www.secretsofthegemtrade.com click on articles or www.rwwise.com click on "Gem Aficianado"

 

[Cave Keeper]

Date: 8/29/2005 5:57:53 AM
Author: valeria101
I do not have the book with me, does it say (or even imply remotely) that red hue = pidgin'' blood red ?
:

Hi, Val101

Good point about it being too late for me to raise the point.

Oops! A thousand apologies to both Richard Wise for attributing that hue point to him (and mentioning the wrong book in the first place), and Richard Hughes (another Richard!).

The relevant book is Richard Hughes'' ''Ruby & Sapphire''. You can find the article in Chapter 10''s section entitled ''Fancy sapphires - Yellow & orange sapphire'', where there is an inset article entitled ''The color purple'':

http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/r-s-bk-quality2.htm

My first two paragraphs in the first message posted have to be read separately; read slower to avoid mixing up Richard''s red with the pigeon blood red of my second paragraph.

 

[AGBF]

Cave Keeper,

Have you seen these threads?

cornflower blue one

cornflower blue two


Deborah

 

[Cave Keeper]

Date: 8/29/2005 8:14:16 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Cave,

I said what? I think you may have gotten two books confused. I think there is an illustration of colors in Dick Hughes'' Ruby & Sapphire. Suggest you check out my article ''Burma Ruby, The Boss is Back'' www.secretsofthegemtrade.com click on articles or www.rwwise.com click on ''Gem Aficianado''

Oops! Your post crossed my second posting. Yes, a thousand apologies for mixing up the two books by Richard and Dick, respectively.

About time to purchase original copies of both books. Any chance to get them autographed with more than just the author''s signature, e.g."With complements to Cave Keeper. You need more candle power!"?

Maybe our remaining Rick should come out with his own book, too.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I keep a cage full of pigeons next to my desk for just this purpose...

 

[glitterata]

Funny, it seems to be ruby season around here. I saw a run-over pigeon in Times Square today, and over the weekend a baby pigeon fell from its nest and landed right in front of the door to my building, where passing dogs & cats gutted it. A pretty color, but I preferred the red of the mouse that ran out into traffic on Central Park West last week and got squished by a bus. It was somehow brighter yet deeper.

It wasn''t a good week for mice. A couple blocks north, one of the local redtail hawks snapped one up and sat on a tree branch a few feet above my head munching, while the poor thing squealed until it died. The hawks grew up in Central Park, so they''re not afraid of people. You can get close enough to count their feathers if you have good vision.

Did you know when a pigeon gets run over it makes a loud pop?

Okay, enough nature talk from this Manhattan girl...

 

[Sagebrush]

Glitterata,

Lord, lord, a pop is it? What sort of a pop, pop like a gun or pop like a cork pulled out of wine bottle?

Well never mind while our Manhattan girl seeks professional help and in the interest of stopping the wholesale slaughter of pigeons, may I share this little anecdote that I heard from Vincent Pardeau aka Mogok on a sunny, late, lazy sunday morning while we lingered over breakfast on the verandah of the Peninsula Hotel and watched the deep ladened barges and the dragon boats plying up and down the Chao Prya River in Bangkok.

Vincent had come over to my hotel a couple of hours earlier. We had conversed, via Pricescope, for some months but had never met. We spent the morning talking about, what else, gems and gemology. He had begun his gemogical studies in Burma and related to me what a Burmese jeweler had told him about the pigeon blood color in ruby.

Pigeon Blood is a slightly blueish red or purplish, if you like. Red and blue make purple. Why blueish red? because pure gold, the Burmese use 24k, is quite yellow and the yellow hue cancels out its compliment, blue yielding a perfectly pure red when the stone is set in the rich yellow of pure gold.

Now, I had reached this same conclusion but for an entirely different reason. Purple like red reaches its highest saturation at a fairly dark tone (see my Chapter 3) Purple, I reasoned, reinforces and adds richness to the dominent hue. Pink by contrast is a light toned red which visually lightens and dilutes the purity of the red hue.

By the way, Vincent and I are working on a series of articles on the gem fields and mines of Madagascar for Colored Stone Magazine. Should begin appearing around the first of the year. I think you will find both his wit and his insights worth reading.

 

[Cave Keeper]

Date: 8/29/2005 9:45:54 AM
Author: AGBF
Cave Keeper,

Have you seen these threads?

cornflower blue one

cornflower blue two

Deborah

Yes, but it''s nice going over the postings again. Mogok''s post about the third drop of blood from the pigeon''s nose is the most definitive specification of what pigeon blood red should be!

 

[mogok]

Hi all,

About the "pigeon blood" thing there is an explanation I like as it makes some sense and has some logic.
I got it from one of my Burmese friends while I was witnessing an Indonesian ruby buyer doing his work. The guy was a german educated gemologist and also a goldsmith. He used to buy rubies using several small gold plated cups. Each cup color was slightly different. I was very surprised and ask him about: He told me then that doing so he was doing less mistakes on the final color of the stone while it will be mounted on a gold ring...
Then my Burmese friend told me that it was a good strategy as in the former time some Burmese goldsmiths were also performing this way. The favorite color for rubies was a dark tone red stone with a drop of blue. The drop of blue was useful to balance the yellow of the gold, so finally the stone while on a burmese type ring would be perfectly red...
The fact is that still today Burmese have a particlular attraction for very yellow 22 or 24 carat gold, and they love yellow gold as much a rubies...
If you put a perfectly red stone on a strongly yellow then you might see as a result your stone turned to red with a drop of yellow or orange!

The dark tone was because in Burma in the former times jewelry was mostly used day time and the sun light is very strong there so a medium tone stone could looks pinkish...
Still today I''ve seen that Burmese people have some preference for stones which are usually qualified as too dark for foreign taste.

All the best,

 

[gemnut]

A very interesting discussion and the answer to a quesion that has been pestering me: why are purplish-red Burma rubies more valued that lighter red ones. The bright yellow 22K gold answered my question. However, I still like purplish red Burmese rubies in white gold for some strange reason.

Gemnut

 

[glitterata]

That''s so interesting about the 24k gold. It makes a lot of sense. So does the bright sun in Burma making dark stones more appealing. I have a black opal that I only wear in daylight--it looks best in direct sun.

("Pop" like a cork, not a gun.)

 

[Cave Keeper]

Date: 8/30/2005 11:46:32 AM
Author: Vincent Pardieu
:
while I was witnessing an Indonesian ruby buyer doing his work. The guy was a german educated gemologist and also a goldsmith. He used to buy rubies using several small gold plated cups. Each cup color was slightly different.
:

What a fantastic tale!

Now I must get my own set of gold cups.

No wonder both cornfluor blue and pigeon blood red have purplish tints.

Alternatively, three stones - light + less purple, medium plus even more purple, and dark or simplly cornfluor blue or pigeon blood red - on 22K gold rings: one for indoor incandescent, another for indoor fluorescent and one for outdoor use.

That''s two sets of three rings - one set for rubies and one set for sapphires. Fortunately, most of us have ten digits.

Must have some left for my Ammolites (which the best looking Opals can only attempt to imitate), of course.

 

[Sagebrush]

Vincent,

I don''t recall the part about the gold cups, interesting!

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 8/29/2005 10:17:45 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I keep a cage full of pigeons next to my desk for just this purpose...

Which type does the best job? Homing pigeons, wood pigeons, feral pigeons, streptopelia turtur, columba polumba, or??? Do you use North American pigeon varieties or some specially-imported species native to Burma whose blood is evolutionarily in synch with Mogok ruby color?

These trade secrets are so unfair!

Richard M.

 

[Cave Keeper]

I recall my own blood looked rather purplish when a blood sample was needed. So a pin prick every now and then should do whenever I go shopping for Mogok rubies in Rangoon.

 

[Sagebrush]

Anything I can do to help you guys out, my pleasure. But, don''t forget the two drops from the pigeon''s nose, remember the nose, on a silver plate.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 8/31/2005 10:19:41 AM
Author: Richard M.

Date: 8/29/2005 10:17:45 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I keep a cage full of pigeons next to my desk for just this purpose...

Which type does the best job? Homing pigeons, wood pigeons, feral pigeons, streptopelia turtur, columba polumba, or??? Do you use North American pigeon varieties or some specially-imported species native to Burma whose blood is evolutionarily in synch with Mogok ruby color?

These trade secrets are so unfair!

Richard M.

HI:

And perhaps (one reason) why it is difficult to derive a "standard" system for grading colored gems??

cheers--Sharon

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 8/31/2005 11:20:00 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
don''t forget the two drops from the pigeon''s nose, remember the nose, on a silver plate.

Pigeons have noses? Since when? I''ll have to tell my plastic surgeon pals. This may open up a whole new field for rhinoplasty.

Richard M.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 8/31/2005 11:34:35 AM
Author: Richard M.

Pigeons have noses? Since when?

Yeah, sure... those two nostrills towards the end of the beak. Birds get a bloody nose sometimes (growing pidgeons informs of weird things) but ... nevermind. Light colored arterial blood gets out on such ocasion. Now, I hope no one around here will actually try to check!

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 8/31/2005 1:15:44 PM
Author: valeria101

Yeah, sure... those two nostrills towards the end of the beak.

Nostrils, beaks, yes...but noses, no. Not unless that Burmese species has unusual features, lol.

Richard M.

 

[Matata]

Date: 8/29/2005 10:17:45 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I keep a cage full of pigeons next to my desk for just this purpose...

And those pigeons have relatives.....

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 8/31/2005 1:52:09 PM
Author: Matata
And those pigeons have relatives.....

Maybe it''s justifiable pigeoncide after all!

Richard M.

 

[Sagebrush]

Richard,

How can you have nostrils without a nose? Its like having lashes without eyes, buttons without bellies.

So if I say squeeze two drops of blood from a pigeon nostrils, will that do. Perhaps I made a slight error translating this from that old beatup Sanskrit scroll. Picky, picky, picky...

Are you from California? Next thing we'll have the Pigeon Defense League (PDL) and the National Pigeon Liberation Front (NPLF).

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 8/31/2005 8:45:47 PM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Richard,


How can you have nostrils without a nose? Its like having lashes without eyes, buttons without bellies.


So if I say squeeze two drops of blood from a pigeon nostrils, will that do. Perhaps I made a slight error translating this from that old beatup Sanskrit scroll. Picky, picky, picky...


Are you from California? Next thing we''ll have the Pigeon Defense League (PDL) and the National Pigeon Liberation Front (NPLF).

Though I''m from California, I eat squab and I tend to agree with native New York satirist Tom Lehrer when it comes to pigeons. Remember his famous ditty about pigeons and parks?

Also do you recall the movie "Cat Ballou" and Lee Marvin''s strap-on tin nose to replace the one that was bitten off in a fight? Nostrils but no nose!

Pigeons are mammals and definitely have an olfactory apparatus. They require oxygen which is obtained through nostrils in their beaks. But noses? Cyrano de Bergerac had a nose. So did Jimmy Durante, Bob Hope and Charles de Gaulle.

Anyhow I was just having a little fun with the concept.

Richard M.

 

[mogok]

About the pigeon thing while speaking with Burmese dealers, several told me that the term is in fact a kind of fake... It could have been created by some french ruby dealers at the end of the XIX century to romance their stones! The fact is that "Kho Twee" is not really a typical burmese terminology term!
Anyway, I like this term as, with all that speculations about the type of pigeon, the type of blood (arterial or from veins), and so on, in fact it is nice way to make people dream about perfection, giving them a taste, a reflection subjet, but the "face of god" will whatever remain hidden. In his masterpiece "ruby and sapphire" Richard Hugues has written that the term may be of chinese origin... I can believe that also as it is fine way to say the thing with an artistic precise imprecision!
In greek style thinking (modern western) if one try to give the location of a mosquitoe in a room, a greek style thinker will try to create an equation to precisely determinate the exact position of the mosquitoe at any time. They will try to pin point...
In chinese thinking, they will try to find an artistic way to say that the mosquitoe travel his way in an area of the room. They will try to give a most probale area.
Trying to pin point the color of the best quality ruby from a possibly chinese style artistic term that was, may be, transmit by some French dealers to fascinate they customers and their other Parisian guest while on a nice diner with their exotic stories is a complete nonsense... Think about!
But LOL, it will continue to make people think and write a lot... Which is an excellent thing as to get close to the "truth" the best way is not to find a good answer but to ask the good question!
Regarding to this aspect, I think that the term "pigeon blood" was one of the best find ever, people will continue to think about, to search what the hell can be the best color for rubies. I prefer that to any kind of grading system... The reason is that a these old terms just make people think, which is not a bad thing...
Gemology is not only about science, but also about art, about culture, emotions, impressions and gem business is not really about gems, its mostly about people.

All the best,

 

[glitterata]

Date: 8/31/2005 9:46:13 PM
Author: Richard M.
Pigeons are mammals and definitely have an olfactory apparatus.
Richard M.

Pigeons are not mammals! They''re birds. Mammals bear live young; birds lay eggs. And most birds have a relatively poor sense of smell, relying instead on sight and sound. The exceptions tend to be scavengers, such as vultures and bald eagles, which have an excellent sense of smell to help them find the dead animals they eat.

(Just don''t bring up platypi.)

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 9/1/2005 12:27:30 AM
Author: glitterata

Pigeons are not mammals! They''re birds.

Mea culpa. It''s been a long time since high school biology but that''s no excuse. I made the dumb mistake of equating warm-blooded with mammalian and forgot the live birth part. But since you''re obviously an expert on this subject the important question is: do pigeons have noses? (In the Pinocchio-as-liar sense, of course). And do veinous and arterial pigeon blood exhibit the same colors under northern New York skies as under the intense near-equatorial Bangkok sun, whether on a silver plate or in high-karat gold cups?

 

[glitterata]

Are you talking about blue-blooded pigeons or the common, plebian type?